Cauldron of Blood Challenge Question(s)

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high elf
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Cauldron of Blood Challenge Question(s)

#1 Post by high elf »

Situation: My silver helm bus charges the flank of a witch elf horde (cauldron & hag BSB in the middle.. 3 ranks total) and the hag BSB issues a challenge (and I accept) does the hag move into base to base contact with my knights (replacing the 3 rank and file witch elves) or can he conveniently stay put?

Rulebook: Fighting A Challenge - If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger - after all, what good is the narrative of a challenge without the visual reality? If, for whatever reason, this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact (this might require a little gumption to work out, so it's best to move the model if you can)...

Further noob questions:
1) Do the witch elf crew attack in challenges?
2) Does the cauldron die if I kill the crew and hag in BtB?
3) Can the cauldron ever make a look out sir - against any type of shooting or magic missile - if its in a unit of witch elves?

Seeking tactical advice from high elf generals as to how to deal with a beefed up block of these bwitches (35+ of em, cauldron BSB w/ death brew or whatever its called...) other than design a specific porcupine list (which isn't always possible...). Eagles & Reavers get out chaffed vs any worthy dark elf list (so I can't simply redirect em) and I have yet to see a unit - or combination of units - that can hold up.

I realize that its possible that my list (see below) is simply 'paper-rock-scissored' vs this dark elf list (see further below)... but I refuse to admit it!

2500pt High Elf list
Prince on barded steed w/ giant blade, dragonhelm, dawnstone, ironcurse icon(276) [deployed in Silver Helms]
Loremaster of Hoeth w/ armour of silvered steel, book of hoeth (330) [Swordmasters]

Noble BSB on barded steed w/ enchanted shield, golden crown of atrazar, crown of command (176) [Silver Helms]
Mage lvl 1 high w/ dispel scroll (110) [Phoenix Guard]

14 Silver Helms w/ shields, FC (352)
15 Archers w/ musician, std bearer (170)
5 Reavers w/ musician, spears, bows (105)

23 Swordmasters w/ FC, Banner of World Dragon (379)
19 Phoenix Guard w/ FC, Razor std (360)

2 Bolt Throwers (140)
2 Eagles (100)

2500pt Dark Elf list
Dreadlord on dark steed w/ giant blade, charmed shield, talisman of endurance, potion of foolhardiness (279) [Dark Riders]
Supreme Sorceress lvl 4 (life) on dark steed w/ dispel scroll, talisman of preservation (310) [Dark Riders]

Death Hag BSB on Cauldron of Blood w/ ogre blade, cry of war (fear tests @ -3 Ld) (355) [Witch Elves]
Sorceress lvl 1 (beast) w/ obsidian lodestone (MR3) (125) [Executioners]

9 Dark Riders w/ std bearer, champion, shields (200)
32 Witch Elves w/ FC, Razor std (427)

2 Cold One chariots (230)
22 Executioners w/ FC, Banner of Swiftness (309)

5 Doomfire Warlocks w/ champion (125)
2 Bolt Throwers (140)

My strategy (as High Elf player): Sit back and shoot everything I got at the Cauldron, because I've seen from experience that nothing in my arsenal can go toe to toe with this witch elf unit (even combo charging everything I have). I could get lucky (17% chance) and roll Fiery Convocation for my lvl 1 (which I did). Even then its unlikely that I get the spell off, due to the high cost and the fact that I'm up against a lvl 4 dispeller. (I tried 6 dicing twice and didn't cast due to terrible rolls...the 3rd time he scrolled it) I tried shooting bolt throwers at the Cauldron but simple mathhammer proves that you'll only do 2-3 wounds at best. With 6 single bolt thrower shots 1 hit and did 2 wounds. I realize that magic missiles from my Loremaster are useless against it, as it has 3++ against magic. Perhaps it would have been a better idea to multi shot my RBTs at the witches instead of single shooting the cauldron... I chose not to b/c the witches kept making their 5+ ward saves and I couldn't stand the thought of wasting my bolts on them.

I sat back as long as I could and when the witches were finally in my front yard I flanked em with my knight bus (see top of thread). I accepted the Death Hag's challenge with my unit champion. I did 1 wound and died with 1 overkill. I won combat resolution but the witches were steadfast (disruption doesn't cancel steadfast? ugh.) and turned to face me, and then slaughtered me, even though my Phoenix Guard flanked them the next turn (didn't do any good). It didn't help that my silver helm bus kept failing fear tests (@ -3 Ld even though I had BSB re-rolls. ugh). What didn't die got ran down and we called the game.

I'm not sure that accepting the Death Hags challenge was a good idea. I couldn't decide whether it was worse to decline the challenge (and lose my BSB's 3 attacks @ S6 plus the re-roll if I somehow lost combat) or accept the challenge (and sacrifice my unit champ while also apparently letting the death hag conveniently leap across the horde of witches to fight in the challenge, but not physically move which would enable my S7 badass general to get in a few attacks on the Cauldron and potentially finish it off after the initial challenge had ended). I did not accept the challenge with my general because I didn't think he could survive against 6 S6 poison armour piercing attacks from the death hag and 8 s3 poison armour piercing attacks from the crew...all of which get to re-roll hits the first round of combat (hatred), nullify my ASF re-rolls (w/ their ASF), re-roll all wounds (not just 1's), and, of course, a 5+ ward save. The Cauldron, as we know, is T6 with a 4+ ward, so I didn't think my general could land 3 wounds on it (because of the 4+ ward).

There's no doubt this is a tough battle for the high elf player. Anyone care to explain how they'd handle this specific matchup?
Daeron
Scotty? Laforge? Kaylee? Engy? Evil Wrench?
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Re: Cauldron of Blood Challenge Question(s)

#2 Post by Daeron »

- The Cauldron's own rules specify that the model must remain in the middle of the unit. This is a specific rule, and thus trumps the BRB's general rule that would have the model displaced. Still... this middle can "vary". Say a 10-wide Witch Elf unit with a COB will have 3 files on one side and 4 on the other. It could thus move 1 file, if that makes a difference worth noting.

1) I assume the crew does not partake in the challenge, but I'm speaking on gut instinct only. The COB is a "chariot" and so could be handled like any chariot in a duel.
2) The crew is treated like the crew of a chariot. It can not be targeted/killed separately from the Cauldron. You either attack the Cauldron, or you attack the Hag. The Hag can be targeted and killed separately.
3) The Cauldron is not a character and doesn't have a sir look out roll. The Hag could, in theory, have a SOL roll but it could be she loses that roll because of incompatible footprint with her infantry unit. That's how I played it, and I'm a dark elf ;)
If the COB is in a unit, keep in mind that shooting from ballistic skill based weapons and magic missiles is distributed as shooting attacks. Such shooting can not target the COB specifically.

Counters:
The Cauldron suffers from frenzy, so you can use that force frenzy tests on unfavourable targets in every charge sub phase. That's not a guarantee though, as the COB can also be a BSB and so give a re-rollable Ld 9 check.
Additionally, the unit
The Cauldron's unit loses effectiveness charged in the rear or flank. The COB's "stay in the middle" rule means that it has limited reform abilities that can be used against it.
If you want to try massed shooting, then obviously the best trick is to increase hits (BS boost?) or reduce toughness (Death or Shadow magic) on the witch elves.
Template weapons can hardly miss the COB. Also Dwellers is your friend.
Once the HAG is dead, the Cauldron has 0 Leadership (not the unit it is in though). We don't know if this was intended design, but it's the way it is. The signature death spell becomes extremely effective against it.

Some more challenging counters:
- The Hag only has Strength 4, T3, no armour, a 4+ ward and limited upgrade options. Unless she carries a magic weapon, chances are she still sticks to strength 4 that allows armour saves. A single hero with a 1+ re-rollable armour save and a ward might last a long time against the unit while having an easy time doing some damage
- "crap feeding". The unit must overrun or pursue. If the unit is positioned near a table edge, you can bait it to run off the table at the expense of a cheap unit, like an eagle. That's 2 turns out of commission.
Oops
afterglow82
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Re: Cauldron of Blood Challenge Question(s)

#3 Post by afterglow82 »

Shoot the shit out of them.

Ok in answer to your questions, as the last guy said, the cauldron has to stay put.

also,

1) No
2) No
3) No

Regards taking them out, Shooting and magic are your friends. In the list you've given, against that specific dark elf list, i'd drop the eagles and reavers for more bolt throwers, and probably choose between PG OR SM, beef that unit up a bit, then use the rest of the points for more archers, or even sisters. Or, if you're nervous about not having a second combat unit, go for SG.

I know that leaves you chaff-less, but you need to decide who the biggest threat is - and for me its the cauldron every time. 24 bolts, 15 arrows, plus whatever other archers you go for, pouring into that unit of witch elves every turn is going to do some serious damage before they even get close to you.

For magic, Death is golden - snipe the hag, and the cauldron is as good as gone (LD 0, with the death sig spell). Even if you dont want to take death, use the sig with your loremaster on the hag. It takes a bit of luck with the roll, but i took her out first cast in one battle. LD was equal i think, i rolled 6, he rolled 1. Dead hag, next turn, dead cauldron :)

Hexes are good, -1 Toughness makes a lot of difference with S3 arrows

Apart from that, you're looking at the big spells, especially ones that dont allow wards - think dwellers, or if you're going shadow for the hexes, Pit of shades i think is good too

A big unit of witch elves with a cauldron (especially with hellebron) is one of, if not THE most broken unit in the game
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