Teclis' spell selection

[Marinero]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if any of you who have experience with Teclis would share their opinion on the optimal spell selection. It is true that he can choose spells before each battle, but certain patterns do not change. If you are facing warmachine/castle type army then Purple Sun and Pits of Shades seem like a natural choice.

It seems that Throne of vines is an auto-pick, so if you want to have an anti-horde spell you are left with Final transmutation. Good options seem the Fulmintating cage and the Net of Amonhosomething.

Also - do you take a scrol caddy with him, or you feel you can get away with his scroll? If you take a scroll caddy do you make him light, for a S5 Banishment or metal for the Seering Doom, as Teclis is likely to take the Final Transmutation?

Anything else you may want to share would be great!

Cheers,
M

[Loriel]

The way I read the rules is that you get to choose the spell at the moment when the Teclis is deployed, thus giving you little time for tweaking what you need.

I have used Teclis only twice in 8th edition and with both times I went shooty archer block list and chose every spell according to that tactic. Battle report of the game can be found here if you are interested to see how it went in this particular match up http://loriel.kapsi.fi/WHFB_BR/HE075/BR.html .

- Flaming sword of ruin -> obvious +1 to wound which is niche for archers
- Curse of Anhareir -> slows enemy advance and forces your opponent to decide wether to march/ charge or not.
- Blades of Aiban -> AP and +1 to hit
- Pha's Protection -> (This was hard choice with net, but I went for it due low casting cost and it would give much needed protection)
- Flesh to Stone -> I didn't take thrones as I didn't have many big spells so miscast didn't worry me as much. +2 T is something that makes a huge difference in battles
- Harmonic Convergence -> absolutely great spell with shooting rerolls natural rolls of 1 in to hit and wounds (and works well with whitelion bodyguards
- Okkams Mindrazor -> Something to make close combat with archers much more managable. On retrospective wither would be much better in this regard.
- Soulblight -> obvious -1 T , doom and darkness would proc too well for panic tests

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In short I think Teclis turned from 7th edition brutal glass cannon (6PD dweller / purple suns) to much more subtle support character. Too bad he doesn't have build in Book of Hoeth as he used to have in previous editions.

[Grenic]

There are technically three approaches that are used to establish Teclis’ spells (in no particular order):
1. Selected during the spell generation step before each game;
2. Established at the time of list writing and the player chooses High Magic or the 8 listed spells before each game; and
3. Selected during the spell generation step before each game, but Teclis’ spells must be selected first.

Approaches 1 and 2 allow for duplicated Banishment spells, the last one does not.

My local meta uses primarily Approach 1 with Approach 2 rounding out the games.

Since I use a Light Council I have three other wizards (two 2nd levels and one 1st level), all on Lore of Light. They take the following Arcane Items: Dispel Scroll, Channelling Staff (optional), and Forbidden Rod.

My current thinking for spell selection is as follows:
- Lore of Fire: Fulminating Flame Cage (slows advancing units)
- Lore of Beasts: Savage Beasts of Horrors (turns my BSB into a monster killer)
- Lore of Metal: Final Transmutation (horde control)
- Lore of Light: Banishment (monster control)
- Lore of Life: The Dwellers Below (horde control), except against Ogres likely with the Hellheart, then Throne of Vines
- Lore of Heavens: Comet of Casandora (castle siege)
- Lore of Shadow: Pit of Shades (anti Ogre, war machines, etc)
- Lore of Death: Spirit Leech (general use sniping spell)

When I have to select at the time of list writing, I’d just go for Dwellers.

My casting sequence is usually 3 or 4 PD for the mage with Banishment, 3 PD for Teclis’ Banishment attempt, and 2 PD (if available) for Fulminating Flame Cage (or other spell).

If you are not permitted to duplicate Banishment (Approach #3), I would just use the spells as noted above, but drop the second levels to first and keep their equipment the same. When outside of 24”, I would go with 4 PD for Banishment and 4 for Fulminating Flame Cage (or other pressing spell). Once within 24”, casting sequence would be 3 PD for Banishment, 5/4 PD for Dwellers/Pit of Shades and, and 2 PD (if available) for Fulminating Flame Cage (or other spell).

[Ladril Caledor]

I usually have Teclis in a shooty army and I go with a similar set to Loriels above, except I take Searing Doom and Withering.

As for a scroll caddy alongside Teclis, I usually don't take one, and get by with his own scroll. But i have played with a light council and Banishment before, one mage with a dispel scroll and another with the forbidden rod, in a unit with Banner of the World Dragon. That's a really powerful combo.

[Andros123]

When I make a Teclis list, I always end up with a gunline kind of army and a phoenix guard bunker. Therefor the spell selection is mostly focused around getting my shooting work better (withering, Flaming sword, enchanted blades), slowing down the enemy(flame cage, Curse of anrahir), dealing damage to the enemy(dwellers, banishment, final trans). I usually play ETC, and therefor Teclis is allowed to pick his spells just before the game begins. So it can vary from time to time.
My main problem is when my opponent fields a lot of flyers, because he can now get to the bunker and I can't redirect or anything.

Have you guys made Teclis work outside of a shooting list?

[Prince of Spires]

3. Selected during the spell generation step before each game, but Teclis’ spells must be selected first.

Approaches 1 and 2 allow for duplicated Banishment spells, the last one does not.

Why not? The order of generating spells has no impact rules wise on being allowed to duplicate spells. All that is required is being able to select spells instead of rolling for them.

Regarding taking a second mage / scroll cady, has someone tried or considered taking a loremaster with scroll in combination with Teclis?

You get a huge spell selection, you free up Teclis for the slightly higher casting cost spells, you get the light mage for higher S banishment and you get a lot more utility then when you bring a regular lvl2.

Rod

[Andros123]

Taking a loremaster could very well be a viable choice. He can also act as a bodyguard for Teclis. Give him a scroll, shield of the merwyrm and an ogre blade and he is good to go. However it is a lot of points, especially if you also want additional 2 light mages for banishment.
The loremaster can actually also heal a wound on Teclis if needed.

[Grenic]

3. Selected during the spell generation step before each game, but Teclis’ spells must be selected first.

Approaches 1 and 2 allow for duplicated Banishment spells, the last one does not.

Why not? The order of generating spells has no impact rules wise on being allowed to duplicate spells. All that is required is being able to select spells instead of rolling for them.

This allows the rules to force your other light Mages to pick something other than Banishment due to the duplicate spell aspect and since Teclis' spells were not "established" when the list was written or had to be taken. If this was not the case, you would just select Teclis' spells last and since he does not follow the "regular spell generation rules" (which includes the duplicate spell aspect) you are permitted to pick Banishment even if it is already in the list.

Approach #3 is effectively what the ETC has done with their FAQ ruling.

[Prince of Spires]

3. Selected during the spell generation step before each game, but Teclis’ spells must be selected first.

Approaches 1 and 2 allow for duplicated Banishment spells, the last one does not.

Why not? The order of generating spells has no impact rules wise on being allowed to duplicate spells. All that is required is being able to select spells instead of rolling for them.

This allows the rules to force your other light Mages to pick something other than Banishment due to the duplicate spell aspect and since Teclis' spells were not "established" when the list was written or had to be taken. If this was not the case, you would just select Teclis' spells last and since he does not follow the "regular spell generation rules" (which includes the duplicate spell aspect) you are permitted to pick Banishment even if it is already in the list.

Approach #3 is effectively what the ETC has done with their FAQ ruling.

The "buying spells" at army list creation is only an example though. The rule in full is:
"The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:"
- having a fixed selection of spells
- buying spells at army list writing
- army book states that you can exchange spells.

The first line is the important one and a direct quote from the BRB. The "such as" indicates that the point coming after are examples, not all possible cases. The rule itself is that if spells are not generated randomly then you can have duplicates of the spells. Teclis' spell selection is very clearly not random. The time at which the spells are picked is irrelevant. Only the fact that spells are picked matters. So, no matter how you rule his actual selection, Teclis' spells have no impact on what spells other mages can roll.

Of course, you can house rule it to act differently. But then it's just that.

Rod

[Grenic]

The "buying spells" at army list creation is only an example though. The rule in full is:
"The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:"
- having a fixed selection of spells
- buying spells at army list writing
- army book states that you can exchange spells.

The first line is the important one and a direct quote from the BRB. The "such as" indicates that the point coming after are examples, not all possible cases. The rule itself is that if spells are not generated randomly then you can have duplicates of the spells. Teclis' spell selection is very clearly not random. The time at which the spells are picked is irrelevant. Only the fact that spells are picked matters. So, no matter how you rule his actual selection, Teclis' spells have no impact on what spells other mages can roll.

Of course, you can house rule it to act differently. But then it's just that.

I agree with you, but haters are just going to hate. Unfortunately, Approach #3 is the fall out of this and does not allow double banishment.

[Marinero]

Thanks for the reply guys.

Unfortunately, my meta is ETC heavy, so I guess the double banishment discussion is moot, as there is a clear ruling on that and it applied to most events that I participate it. TBO, I was not considering a double banishment, as it seems that the list will become to light on troops.

My way of thinking was a shooty list with counter attacking elements - either prince led SHs and an elite unit or 2 elite units. I think that adding a lvl 1 with the dispel scroll will help make the list safer in the enemy magic phase, and also a BSB with the obsidian loadstone should round the magical protection up..

The truth is that magic is very fickle and if the first 2-3 phases are low on dice, such a list probably would have a hard time against agressive builds.

I am surprised that Throne of Vines is not an auto-include in his selection - I thought that making him almost immune to miscast effects is a good thing, especially as he can really put damage from turn 1 and it is very possible that he will force the opponent to burn the dispel scroll by turn 2..

Anyway, keep your comments coming - they are much appreciated

[Andros123]

I also play in a ETC heavy meta, which means that Teclis picks his spells after seeing my opponents army and no double banishment.

About throne of vines, it is a very solid pick, but there is just some lists (mainly elves: DE Shade star, Silver helm bus etc.) where dwellers is too good to pass up.
Besides you can ignore the first miscast anyway.

My problem with a Teclis list, is that it is very hard to find proper counter charging units. You probably want 4 bolt throwers, which means that you can't take a frost heart or a stardragon. That leaves you with a flamespyre, mounted flamespyre or a cavprince. I like the latter most, since I don't think the first ones pack enough punch. But again, if you want the cav prince, you also need Silver helms, which are points that should be used on archers in a shooty list.

Lately I've toyed around with a 30 man archer bunker for Teclis instead of white lions /phoenix guards, which frees up a lot of points for more character support. However, it is hard making a death star without the banner of the world dragon.

[Marinero]

I feel that putting Teclis in an elite unit is a waste, now that you cannot combine him with the BotWD for the extra protection.. You do not want him in combat anyway... I was thinking to put him in a unit of 25+ archers with the BSB and to protect him with 2 units of elites (PG and SM) and 3 units of 5 SH..

[Andros123]

Aren't you gonna have huge problems with flyers then? I mean they can just park that Chimera, frost phoenix or whatever within charge distance of your archer bunker and charge next turn and eat Teclis. Having infantry as support does not grant you enough board control in my opinion.
Maybe it sounds a little crazy, but I think there might be a case to be made about nobles on eagles here. They can even sit with the archer bunker and charge out if needed.

Most of my Teclis lists also features an Annointed on foot simply because the grants a 6++ and MR, which you need anyway.

[Marinero]

Annointed would be great, but he costs as much as a unit of White lions

Regarding the fliers - I think that with 4 RBTs and magic fliers in charge range may have a problem..

Hmm.. Annointed with S7... Hmm...

[Andros123]

Regarding the fliers - I think that with 4 RBTs and magic fliers in charge range may have a problem..

I'm mostly thinking about the filthy 3++ Chaos lords/heroes on discs. They don't really care about bolt throwers. Not on average at least. Or even a Chimera is also next to impossible to kill with bolt throwers.

Hmm.. Annointed with S7... Hmm...

Blade of leaping gold + savage beast hmm.... .

It is also possible to bring a moon dragon prince as a serious countercharge element. Just throwing out ideas here .

[Delaqure]

Why can't Teclis be in a unit with BOWD? Is that an ETC ruling or has something come from GW?