Universal Battle combat score

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Wicksi
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Universal Battle combat score

#1 Post by Wicksi »

Hi all!

I have been thinking about this for quite some time,
I for one would like to play more games of warhammer but am not really avalible to play outside UB as i currently live in Lithuania and don't actually speak Lithuanian (which does kind of limit the few possible opponents in this country).

However I was thinking that maybe we can have a yearly scoreboard on Ulthuan.net (assuming we can get a mod into this scheme) and then makes smaller or bigger tournaments over the year which you can attend or not attend to as you wish (this means that you can attend to for example one per year or all of them or anything in between) and for every tournament held player will earn/loose points on the scoreboard.

I figured this would be a fun thing that you can se the online progress of your fellow Ulthanites + it will most likely lead to a few online tournaments meaning more games for anyone who would be intrested.


what do you guys think?

Best Regards
Wicksi
Casazzo
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#2 Post by Casazzo »

I am interested!
Dalamar
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#3 Post by Dalamar »

Stay tuned for more information about a mini UB tournament coming in august.
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#4 Post by Prince of Spires »

There just happens to be a moderator reading this...

It's a good idea I think. There are already a few topics floating around where people try to get UB games organized. We could see if we can formalize the thing a bit and create some kind of ranking to go with it.

I'm thinking to keep it simple to start with. People can sign up for the ranking and log their games on it. You only get ranking points by playing against other ranked players (either on- or offline) or in tournaments.

As for ranking individual games, I'm thinking of the following. Each player starts with 1000 ranking points. When playing against a ranked player, divide your score with your opponents and multiply by 50. This is the number of points you gain if you win. If you lose, take your opponents score, divide it with your own and again multiply by 50. The result is the number of points you lose. Consequence is that if you play an equally ranked player, you get or lose 50 points. If you play against a higher ranked player, you gain more then 50 points and against a lower ranked player you gain fewer points. Playing better players pays of then.

Example:

Code: Select all

Player A with 2000 points plays player B with 1750 points. 
If player A wins, then player A gains (2000/1750)*50 = 44 points and player B loses 44 points

If player B wins, then player B gains (1750/2000)*50 = 57 points and player A loses 57 points. 
Of course, numbers at this moment are a bit arbitrary. And there should probably be a maximum time the results keep counting, 1 year being a good candidate. So not playing for a year would put you back on 1000 points again...

Something similar can be done with tournaments, though I haven't completely figured out how yet. I'm thinking something like "registering" (mainly just informing us) a tournament. Which then gets a points value, probably depending on the number of players involved. Results should be verifiable of course. And from that you could use it as a base to organize a ranked tournament on UB.

It shouldn't be too difficult to get organized I think. 2 topics, one to log the ranking and post results in. And another to organize games in and that sort of stuff. Ok, maybe also a third for general banter. Sticky them in an easily found place and we're good to go.

Does that match up a bit with what you were thinking Wicksi?

Rod
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#5 Post by Wicksi »

rdghuizing wrote:There just happens to be a moderator reading this...

It's a good idea I think. There are already a few topics floating around where people try to get UB games organized. We could see if we can formalize the thing a bit and create some kind of ranking to go with it.

I'm thinking to keep it simple to start with. People can sign up for the ranking and log their games on it. You only get ranking points by playing against other ranked players (either on- or offline) or in tournaments.

As for ranking individual games, I'm thinking of the following. Each player starts with 1000 ranking points. When playing against a ranked player, divide your score with your opponents and multiply by 50. This is the number of points you gain if you win. If you lose, take your opponents score, divide it with your own and again multiply by 50. The result is the number of points you lose. Consequence is that if you play an equally ranked player, you get or lose 50 points. If you play against a higher ranked player, you gain more then 50 points and against a lower ranked player you gain fewer points. Playing better players pays of then.

Example:

Code: Select all

Player A with 2000 points plays player B with 1750 points. 
If player A wins, then player A gains (2000/1750)*50 = 44 points and player B loses 44 points

If player B wins, then player B gains (1750/2000)*50 = 57 points and player A loses 57 points. 
Of course, numbers at this moment are a bit arbitrary. And there should probably be a maximum time the results keep counting, 1 year being a good candidate. So not playing for a year would put you back on 1000 points again...

Something similar can be done with tournaments, though I haven't completely figured out how yet. I'm thinking something like "registering" (mainly just informing us) a tournament. Which then gets a points value, probably depending on the number of players involved. Results should be verifiable of course. And from that you could use it as a base to organize a ranked tournament on UB.

It shouldn't be too difficult to get organized I think. 2 topics, one to log the ranking and post results in. And another to organize games in and that sort of stuff. Ok, maybe also a third for general banter. Sticky them in an easily found place and we're good to go.

Does that match up a bit with what you were thinking Wicksi?

Rod

Sounds like you put alot of effort into this :D

Personally I really like how you laid it up, and the point system looks fantastic imo.

If we could fix this I think it would be fantastic, aslong as we start with keeping it simple and if need be evolve it afterwards.

Best Regards
Wicksi
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#6 Post by Wicksi »

One thing that spring to mind, that base 50 should it stay the same all the time or should it change in regard to if you get a crushing,major,minor win/loss? maybe have it as 75,50,25 or would this be offputting or to complicated you think?
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think the idea of using a tiered rating system is nice. I do think that (especially for a first try) it may be a bit to complicated. There is the difficulty of determining where exactly those borders are and then taking the correct factor. Perhaps we should give the simpler system a try first and then evaluate after half a year or a year.

You did remind me that I forgot to take the possibility of a draw into consideration. How about a factor 20 for a draw? So you still gain more points if you draw against a higher ranked opponent. Just not as many. This does add extra points into the system, but that's not that big a deal I think. Draws are uncommon enough in my experience.

The logic behind the numbers is actually as follows. I picked 1000 because it's a nice round number. High enough to offer some room above and below it. The 50 follows from being 5% of 1000. I felt that about a 5% change per match would be a good number. Not so high that 2 or 3 matches completely change the ranking. But high enough to offer some impact.

The division factor then is put in to put some player skill in there, take peoples ranking into account and also add a bit of risk into highly ranked players "praying" on weaker players for easy points. After all, if player skill is reflected in the ranking, it is a bigger achievement to defeat someone ranked a few hundred points about you then to do the reverse.

I'll prod a few of the other mods to see if they like the idea as well. Which forum do you think we should put this in? Most UB related stuff is in the Battle reports section. As good a place as any I would say.

Rod
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#8 Post by Wicksi »

If the Battle Report forum is where the UB people tend to be that sound like a good choice :)

// Wicksi
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#9 Post by Prince of Spires »

:)

I'll have a chat with the other lores about it and see if they have an opinion. Once I've done that, I'll make a few topics for this. Expect them probably monday or so. Unless you don't feel like waiting of course ;)

Rod
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#10 Post by Senor »

I'm very interested.

Just a few questions....

Can the ranking list be added with the number of games a player played so far...like:
Senor 859 points (10 battles) and maybe even (W3, D1, L6)

Do we play every game with 2400 points armylists or can this be different every game.
Also...do we need to play all games with 1 army list, or may we change armylists per battle.
Or can we even change armies, First game 2400 HE, 2nd game 2400 DE, or is the army used 1st battle the army you have to use all battles...

Senor...
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#11 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think we can arrange for some extra information about how the ranking was achieved, with number of battles, that sort of thing.

As for game sizes and armies. At the moment I would leave it completely open. At least that's how I see it. It's a ranking of players, not armies. And if you want to play with several different armies, then that can only be a positive thing. (actually, you could even argue that playing with several armies is more difficult then playing with only a single one). One of the aims is to get people to play more games. Allowing people to switch armies improves that.

As for size, initially I think we'll keep it as one size fits all. For simplicities sake. If it takes off and turns out to be an issue, then we can add in a correction factor to accommodate for game size. So 2400-2500 pts would have a factor of 1. Smaller or larger would get a factor < 1. Probably something linear up to 500 or 4000 pts where it would be something like 0.5

So you could play 1 game with HE @2400 pts, another with DE @2500 and another with dwarves @2000. And so on. Though of course, it's all still open to suggestions and ideas.

Rod
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#12 Post by Wicksi »

I'm with rdghuizing, the root of this is to make more games happen and a side thing is to make people better at the game in general, so the simpler we start with the better.

If there will only be 5 people interested in this then we don't really have to state to many do and don't however if the interest base gets larger then we can work on what kind of rules should be used to manage it better.

However army for me you can use whatever army you like (id say if you use a none official one such as chaos dwarfs then agree first with your opponent) but other then that play any army you like to play at that time really.


//Wicksi
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#13 Post by spearman »

I'm often on UB looking for a game, so I'm definitely interested in this.
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#14 Post by Bolt Thrower »

This sounds very cool, and even if I didn't participate, I'd follow along to see the results. I've never used UB. Is there a thread somewhere that discusses it i.e. how easy it is to setup, use, length to play a game, etc.

With a new baby in the house, hobby time is crunched, but if I could sit with the baby and play some warhammer at the same time, that would rock.
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Wicksi
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#15 Post by Wicksi »

Ho Bolt Thrower!

Sounds like UB might be the place for you ;)

Getting started is super easy and its for free (altho you can pay to be able to make your own modells load/save games etc)

Getting started is really easy you just go here http://www.universalbattle.com/ login as a guest or make your own account. (the best way to understand how it works is to just host a map and explore)

For time I'd say it takes aproximatly the same time as a face to face game - unpacking/packing/travel time.

It's a really simple and easy to use system (even tho I found it completely offputing until I had actually played a game)

//Wicksi
Casazzo
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#16 Post by Casazzo »

Do we have a meeting place to arrange Battles?

So to discuss time, teamspeak etc?
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#17 Post by arcaneshield »

I've set up a facebook group for this very purpose.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1434874226772658/
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#18 Post by pk-ng »

Example:

Code: Select all

Player A with 2000 points plays player B with 1750 points. 
If player A wins, then player A gains (2000/1750)*50 = 44 points and player B loses 44 points

If player B wins, then player B gains (1750/2000)*50 = 57 points and player A loses 57 points. 
I think you got this wrong? (2000/1750)*50 = 57 points while (1750/2000)*50 = 44
So wouldn't it be as you have less points you are better?
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#19 Post by pk-ng »

One factor you may want to consider is the number of games played? because if someone plays alot (and assuming they win) they can climb the ladder just by the mass number of games they play.
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

You're right, I got the calculation mixed up, though the outcome is what I intended it to be. So it should be

Code: Select all

Player A with 2000 points plays player B with 1750 points. 
If player A wins, then player A gains (1750/2000)*50 = 44 points and player B loses 44 points

If player B wins, then player B gains (2000/1750)*50 = 57 points and player A loses 57 points. 
As for factoring in games played. Not sure if it is necessary just yet. Playing more will get you more points. But then, winning 10 games is more impressive then winning 1. So you should place higher. I do think that it's a good idea to "forget" battles after a certain time period. For instance, results from 1 year ago no longer count in the ranking. That way, if you don't play for a year you'll end up with 1000 points. It should limit the amount of games a player can log at least.

You will face diminishing returns as you win more games. When you're playing a game vs a 1000 points opponent, and you have 1000 points, you can win 50 points. If you have 2000 points when playing against a 1000 points opponent then you can only win 25 points.

Also note that in the system as proposed (without factoring in tournaments or other ways of introducing extra points), the amount of points in the system is fixed. For each player there will only be 1000 points entered into the system. After all, one players gain is another players loss.

Though I do think the system should be evaluated if it takes off after a period of time. If big unbalances come up then they should definitely be fixed of course.

Rod
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#21 Post by pk-ng »

Yeah that "forget" idea is good. But 1 year is too long? I think 6 months would be more relevant?
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Re: Universal Battle combat score

#22 Post by Prince of Spires »

Both are fine for me actually. I don't really have a preference either way. Let's check in 6 months time how it looks and then we can adjust as needed.

Anyway, we have liftoff... => Ulthuan Battle Ranking signup / game topic and Ulthuan Battle Ranking

So, let's see if we can get people to sign up and get some games logged.

Rod
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