I often wish I could fight w/ hw+shield on seaguard/spearmen.
If there was an option for core elves w/ heavy armor shield and handweapon for say : 10 pts a model, would you field them?
Is the price right?
Sword and board HE
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Re: Sword and board HE
I'd definitely like hand weapon/shield HE core infantry, and an option on heavy armour.
As it stands we're shunted towards archers for core infantry because they more or less do everything the other options do but offer better shooting. Spear units with 4+ AS or swords with 4+/6++ or even seaguard with 4+AS would all be nicely differentiated from archers. Hell, even swords with 5+/6++ would be worth considering (although I suspect archer core trumps this still).
As to whether I would take these options...well...I think it depends on the builds, but it would definitely make other builds more viable! I think it would improve internal balance between our core infantry.
I'm curious as to how this would impact on external balance. It might make us more robust in a shoot-out (e.g. vs dwarves, empire, wood elves) which may be no bad thing (excempting the woodies, against whom we're already pretty solid). It might make our core infantry a tough nut to crack with infantry none elites/cav/monstrous cav, but against combined arms they're still a weak point in our battle line which we need to guard against. I think it should be safe enough to introduce these sorts of changes to our core units but I guess only play would tell.
As it stands we're shunted towards archers for core infantry because they more or less do everything the other options do but offer better shooting. Spear units with 4+ AS or swords with 4+/6++ or even seaguard with 4+AS would all be nicely differentiated from archers. Hell, even swords with 5+/6++ would be worth considering (although I suspect archer core trumps this still).
As to whether I would take these options...well...I think it depends on the builds, but it would definitely make other builds more viable! I think it would improve internal balance between our core infantry.
I'm curious as to how this would impact on external balance. It might make us more robust in a shoot-out (e.g. vs dwarves, empire, wood elves) which may be no bad thing (excempting the woodies, against whom we're already pretty solid). It might make our core infantry a tough nut to crack with infantry none elites/cav/monstrous cav, but against combined arms they're still a weak point in our battle line which we need to guard against. I think it should be safe enough to introduce these sorts of changes to our core units but I guess only play would tell.
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- Domine Nox
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Re: Sword and board HE
Our spears and LSG used to have heavy armor as an option, still no clue why it gotten taken away. As for heavy armor hand weapon and shield, I think they would be taken in a heart beat, since that unit would be advantageous in so many ways.
4+ armor: better than everything we have on foot.
6++ Parry: Makes them on par with Dragon Princes in close combat.
Martial Prowess: Means even without spears they fight 3 deep, 4 in a horde. It's sad that these guys would probably have to cost 12-13pts because that parry save actually makes them tougher to kill in combat than White Lions.
4+ armor: better than everything we have on foot.
6++ Parry: Makes them on par with Dragon Princes in close combat.
Martial Prowess: Means even without spears they fight 3 deep, 4 in a horde. It's sad that these guys would probably have to cost 12-13pts because that parry save actually makes them tougher to kill in combat than White Lions.
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Re: Sword and board HE
Thanks for the responses.I'm not the only one that's missing them atleast.
11-12 points would probably be more realistic though.It would open up alot of options.Scaly skin from lore of metal comes to mind.
11-12 points would probably be more realistic though.It would open up alot of options.Scaly skin from lore of metal comes to mind.
Re: Sword and board HE
Wouldn't you rather that GW got the balance between hand weapon&shield and spear&shield right? Say for example that hw&shield gave the parry save but spear gave armour piercing vs all cav, monsters and chariots when receiving a charge or somesuch?Larkspire wrote:I often wish I could fight w/ hw+shield on seaguard/spearmen.
If there was an option for core elves w/ heavy armor shield and handweapon for say : 10 pts a model, would you field them?
Is the price right?
Wishing for hw&shield usually comes about because it is a better setup than spear and shield, especially for s3 troops in the current rules. make spears a better choice and you may see them more.
Re: Sword and board HE
@Sulla-Yeah,I do think spears should be rethought.Nobody just stands around waiting to get charged without a good reason.
All spears should just be armor piercing and +1 rank of attacks, that would make them more interesting.
All spears should just be armor piercing and +1 rank of attacks, that would make them more interesting.
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Re: Sword and board HE
Just look at Dark Elf Warriors. Cheaper and have access to carry either Spears or Handweapons. Most DE players take them with Handweapons. Why? Because they are better for your rank and file. Even giving them Martial Prowess for an extra point and ASF for another they will still be the same cost as ours then (or cheaper still as they are 6ppm aren't they? or 7ppm?).
I hate that Spears do nothing more than extra rank of attacks and GW didn't see the problem having them still be 9ppm then reduce Archers and LSG. Its madness!
I hate that Spears do nothing more than extra rank of attacks and GW didn't see the problem having them still be 9ppm then reduce Archers and LSG. Its madness!
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[b]"Humans are strange creatures, in a world of such fascination and wonder they have managed to invent boredom"[/b]
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Re: Sword and board HE
+1The Silly Dragon wrote:Just look at Dark Elf Warriors. (or cheaper still as they are 6ppm aren't they? or 7ppm?).
I hate that Spears do nothing more than extra rank of attacks and GW didn't see the problem having them still be 9ppm then reduce Archers and LSG. Its madness!
I love the fluff of Spearelves, or Bows or both with the Seaguard. I just hate the rules and point costs.
We dont settle with puny handweapons that have no special rules.
Wait... Handweapon and shield got a special role suddenly a few editions ago - and I still dont undersrand why!
Spearelves 8 pt
Light Armor, Shield, Spear
+1 pt for heavy armor.
Army wide special rule:
High elves are so trained in the combat with spear and shield that they gain a 6+ parry ward as if fighting with handweapon and shield.
Fixed
Now I like them. Still only S3 and no AP so they have a problem running into high T or AS troops, but are cheap enough to field a bunch (we need 5×4 units for ranks, spears and prowess...) and pretty strong against low t, low AS troops.
Still fragile with t3. But since we are a vanishing people we give even our core decent armor. And their training gave them parry which stacks wonderfully with our lore attribute.
If we now kick out one of the useless spells of our lore and substitute it with something like "vauls blessing: support, 12'', duration 1 round, the weapons of the target unit gain a nonstacking +1 S bonus, magic attacks and AP, bubble version with high complexity"
then we'd even have some useful synergy with our lore...