Enemy of the month: Ogres

All discussions related to Warhammer Fantasy Battles from 1st to 8th edition go here, including army construction, comp creation, campaign and scenarios design, etc...
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Prince of Spires
Auctor Aeternitatum
Posts: 8249
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: The city of Spires

Enemy of the month: Ogres

#1 Post by Prince of Spires »

The enemy of the (second half of) March is Ogres.

Our big bellied friends like to run over or eat anything they run into. What are their strong units? What are good combinations and items? What are strong lists? And, most important of all, how do we beat them.

A whole month to discuss and find out.

In your post, aside from information about Ogres, please also specify what kind of environment you play in. What comp do you play? What does your local meta look like? Do you play in tournament settings or just in your local shop? And how tough are the lists you regularly run into?
SteVieBizzLe
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:05 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#2 Post by SteVieBizzLe »

As an Ogre player as well as High Elves I could post some helpful advice here. Some of it will be obvious to more experience players.

Ironblasters

The most important unit the ogre player will have most likely. Usually earns most of the VPs towards victory and will be deadly against any birds or dragons flying around. Must be made a priority to take out, flank charge with Reavers should be enough as the Rhinox cant attack to the flank AFAIR, so as long as the ogre and gnoblar dont pull a blinder you should win combat by 1/2 and put a break test on ld5/6. Failing that Bolt throwers or rushing them with Phoenix and Dragons will work.

Sabretusks

Kill them early, otherwise you will regret it. Probably the most annoying unit in the game, cheap, quick and very small base size make them perfect chaff. Bow fire should clear them quickly enough as they are only T4 with no armour and 2W. Look for mistakes in leaving them within 6" of other units to cause panic tests.

The 'Gutstar'

Probably the most infamous unit in the Ogre army. Not much we can do against it as its sheer resilience in terms of wounds and T make it daunting even before the 3/4 characters go in to start playing blocking shenanigans. If not running death magic (purple sun FTW), your best bet will be to chaff it up and double flee as long as you can and shoot them to death. If you do go into combat try and get it on multiple sides so that its much harder to pull blocking tricks with characters. Magic here helps, as long they don't have the...

Rune Maw

Here we have the BotWD's older and slightly less potent brother. 'Bounces' spells to another target on a 2+ and if no other target is available, the spell is lost. Prevents things like Pit of Shades as well now after FAQ updates and dwellers and death snipes are out as well. Avoid casting spells at the Rune Maw if there are no other targets available as you totally waste the spell. Not much we can do to counter this, just be aware of it and what it does. focus on buffs and DD to other units in the magic phase.

Leadbelchers

One of the most deadly units against out T3 lightly armoured units, luckily despite being T4 they are quit fragile themselves and should take as much damage as they receive. Problem will be finding enough spare shooting to put into them, keep eagles and reavers away from them if possible, try and make them waste shots at dragons or phoenix. Again not much we can do to counter, just be aware.

Hellheart

We have all been on the receiving end of this little nasty bag of tricks. Trouble with it being our wizards are likely to be in the bus, which needs to fight the gutstar which will have the Hellheart in it. Some what luckily, if we have the BotWD then Miscasts are negligible most of the time except for shutting down a magic phase. Good trick is to threaten the Ogres in a position where the Hellheart needs to roll a 4+ to get you (its range is d6x5") and try and bait them into wasting it. Again something we can't do a whole lot about, but dont make the mistake of forgetting about it before a crucial magic phase.

Mournfang

Not as scary as they were in the days of 8th InfantryHammer, most of our units are mounted so the effectiveness of MF is reduced, but will still do a number on our relatively small infantry units if allowed to get the charge for their impact hits (d3 at S5 each), plus 2+ armour and parrys. Like with most MC, try to get them in the flank or prevent them from charging. Major weakness is Ld7, see my point about panic test opportunities in the Sabretusk section. Without the charge, WL or any CavBus + characters or our monsters will make short work of them.

Maneaters

The swiss army knife unit of the Ogre army. dealing with them depends on their build, most common 2 are Poison and Sniper with brace of pistols, or Scout/Stubborn with CC upgrades (they can mix weapons in the unit so you usually see 3x AHW in front rank and 3x GW in rear rank). Similar to the Gutstar in that they are a tough nut to crack but are fairly fragile, unlikely to have anything more than Light Armour as they are a ton of points, so massed shooting and MM will put a hurt on them (I'm looking at you Soul Quench). Be wary of Scouting Maneaters and don't leave gaps behind your deployment that they can exploit. remember scouting units cannot deploy within 12" of enemy units. Hardest unit to plan for as they really can fill many, many roles.


I think about covers the main threats, not going to go through the whole book. But if you want me to talk about anything in particular then drop a message or a comment.

I play at a pretty high level, attend GT's often and usually place in the top 20% at least so have good experience.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#3 Post by SpellArcher »

Here's the list I faced at an uncomped tourney recently:

Slaughtermaster, Lvl4 Heavens, Scroll, Stuff.
BSB, GW, Stuff.
Butcher, Maw, Scroll of Shielding.

9 Ironguts, FC, Std of Discipline
2 x 10 Gnoblars, Trappers
2 x 10 Gnoblars

6 Leadbelchers, Champ, Musician
6 Leadbelchers, Champ, Musician
5 Leadbelchers, Musician

2 Ironblasters
Sabretusk

So the key characters are there, the Ironguts, the Ironblasters and then Leadbelchers are maxed out, at the slight cost of replacing two Sabretusks with Gnoblars. My guess is the Scroll of Shielding is there so the list can be fielded under comp (Scroll/Hellheart combo often comped out).

Now, I was running my mixed WE list, with about 40 (admittedly high quality) shots, so I imagine many HE lists would be in the same area, firepower-wise. The problem is these Ogres simply out shoot that. Not only that, Heavens works very well here because Harmonic Convergence on the Leadbelchers and Comet are both must-dispels, which means eating magic missiles.

What I did was to stack negative modifiers (with woods and staying at range) and try to whittle the Leadbelchers down while distracting them. I got an early result Amber Spearing an Ironblaster (Scroll of Shielding Ward failed). It cost me a unit of Wild Riders and my Treeman Ancient but I got most of the Leadbelchers by the end. Even then I lost 9-11 but my opponent told me this list was built specifically to fight elves.

How would a HE list tackle this army?
effreem
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:17 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#4 Post by effreem »

I fought a list similar to this with HOTEK list. Luckily I was full on magic with a sorc, AM and loremaster. What ended up winning me the game was on turn 2 I debuffed every leadership stat I could then nuked a leadbelcher unit to run away which caused a cascading failure (and magic to ensure he wasnt coming back!)

In our rematch (friendly games, slightly competitive lists, EOT magic.)
Turn one: I MM nuked the gnobbys with mages.
Turn 2: manuvering, maybe more nuking gnobbies or something. I think the maneaters died to something here, just dont remember what maybe helms and magic?
Turn 3: I had 2 units of 10 swordmasters kill 2 sabertusks that they charged (it took a full turn of combat but they got them.) The mournfang murdered a block of spearmen then got charged by my helm darts (1 on the side, debuffed by Loremaster) while my WL and PG blocks were scaring the gutstar back. I made him blow the heart early (I rolled 20 dice for magic) and it didnt get any mages (he rolled a 3 and needed 1 more inch to hit the throne of vines Loremaster.) I hit a barona's TW on the PG and used the doubled movement to charge the front of the gutstar while hitting one side with the last couple of swordmasters and the 3rd side with the WL's. I think he had a firebelly instead of the butcher and breathed on the WL's which hurt but it was essentially over. Turn 4: With T2, S2 ogres they went down quick to the couple dozen remaining elves. Including the loremaster that finally killed the slaughtermaster in the duel.

A note on the magic, I play where spells that are not instant can only affect a unit once regardless of number of castings. So no +10 str with dark signature and no stacking beasts sig or metal down his AS to 0 in 1 turn crap. Self imposed restriction that could influence how this game would play out in other local area's. Also, no EOT spells, cause deadlock on a +5 casting AM with no dispel is dumb.
User avatar
Eltherion2
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:39 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#5 Post by Eltherion2 »

I fought 2 x 8 Leadbelchers in a Tournament a few years back (vs. former Australian Master, ETC player Chris Cousins). I was using Dark Elves with a Level 4 on Shadow.

I spent a few turns with Miasma on the Ballistic Skill of one Leadbelcher unit of 8 which made it a lot less effective. I was getting Miasma off because he was worried about Pit of Shades and Mindrazor.

I charged the second unit with a Pegasus character (the LB's can't stand and shoot) and defeated them in combat, however I failed to run them down with my Peg Rider :(.

So basically a tooled up Eagle Noble can do the job on a Leadbelcher unit even with a frontal charge as they are only strength 4.

So with the above list I would Magic missile and shoot one unit down with archers and RBTS, neutralize the others shooting using Magic and or Terrain and try to get an early charge off on the 3rd with Silver Helms or an Eagle rider.
Highest Australian Ranking 31
2015 Club Championship (Runner Up)
2014: 2nd Place Barglecon II, 2nd Place Conviction (High Elves)
2013 Barglecon I Best General (High Elves)
2011 M.O.A.B 10th Place (Dark Elves)
2010 Devilcon 4th Place, Blood on the Reich 2nd Place (Skaven)
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

Getting a charge into one unit here without taking a round of fire from at least 11 Leadbelchers is difficult. I agree that terrain & magic are important. I would be a bit wary of the Ironblasters with an eagle rider. I guess the key is to get to work on the Leadbelchers without getting the rest of your army shot to pieces in the process.
Andros123
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:30 am

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#7 Post by Andros123 »

Usually what I do against ogres is I shoot of his ranged threats ASAP and force him to come to me. Then redirect and (combo) charge when everything is setup right. I know, easier said than done. But with Ogres being unable to take anything super fast (flyers) and their very limited ranged threats in the magic phase, they are relatively easy to slow down. Besides HE should be able to outside any ogre army really. Our archers and bolt throwers outrange his leadbelchers and the whole army has practically no armour, which is amazing from our point of view :) .
If you can just find some kind of cover, Leadbelchers are pretty useless. They are hitting most of the time on 5's, so I don't think they will last long in a shooting stand of.
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#8 Post by SpellArcher »

The problem is that Leadbelchers can shoot anything within 30" without the -1 for moving, so it doesn't take long for them to close and start killing elves. Even woods are only so much protection at close range. I disagree about the ranged threat of magic. Harmonic Convergence really hurts when there are 17. Comet is bad news. So you end up eating magic missiles.
Baza
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#9 Post by Baza »

Anyone come up a MSU style Ogre list like below?

Butcher: Dispel Scroll; Rock Eye; Charmed Shield; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of Heavens
Butcher: Level 2 Wizard; Lore of Heavens
Butcher: Level 2 Wizard
Bruiser: Dragonhelm; Warrior Bane; ironfist; heavy armour; Battle Standard

10 Gnoblars: standard bearer
10 Gnoblars: standard bearer
10 Gnoblars: standard bearer
3 Ogres: Bellower
3 Ironguts: Bellower; standard bearer (Look-out Gnoblar)
3 Ironguts: Bellower; standard bearer
3 Ironguts: Bellower; standard bearer
3 Ironguts: Bellower; standard bearer

3 Yhetees
3 Yhetees
1 Sabretusk
1 Sabretusk
Gorger
6 Leadbelchers: Bellower

Ironblaster
Ironblaster

I've seen the army in action and it surrounds you and wears you down with multiple charges, how would you deal with this?
"From darkness I cry for you
the tears you shed for us are the blood of Elven kind
O Isha, Here I stand on the last shore
a sword in my hand
Ulthuan shall never fall!"
NexS
Posts: 1192
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Australia

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#10 Post by NexS »

I feel that a harassment list would deal well with Ogres. Beefed up Soul Quench and some Heavens magic wouldn't go astray :)
Regards,
Brad
------------------------------------------------------
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53518&start=0]Visit The Nexs-Files Conversion/Painting Log[/url]
SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

My first thought vs that MSU list is to go for Panic tests because a lot of it is Ld 7, including the General.

I think Seredain described fighting a list like that in his blog, I'll try to dig it out.

Edit: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... start=1500

The Ogre batrep is about 1/3 page down, first SCGT game:

2 x Firebelly

3x3 Ironguts

3x4 Leadbelchers
5 Maneaters, Pistols, Poison, Sniper
4 Maneaters, Pistols, Scout
2 Sabretusks
2 Gorgers

2 Ironblasters

Even more radical, with no BSB.
Baza
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#12 Post by Baza »

Funnily enough that's the same ogre player in the battle report who is using the list that I mentioned, he went on to win the tournament.
"From darkness I cry for you
the tears you shed for us are the blood of Elven kind
O Isha, Here I stand on the last shore
a sword in my hand
Ulthuan shall never fall!"
SteVieBizzLe
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:05 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#13 Post by SteVieBizzLe »

Yeah I have played against that MSU Ogre list, think the guys name is Andy right? or similar anyway. I think the trick with the list is it tries to baffle you, make you think that you don't have a proper plan.

I think they way to beat it is to be super aggressive and push back against it, if you can get to the blasters the list really loses its punch.
Elkadar
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:33 pm

Re: Enemy of the month: Ogres

#14 Post by Elkadar »

Finally I have got enough time to post my concern about Ogres.
Unfortunately I'm going to bering more question than answers.

So....

Some time ago I have a friendly 3vs3 game where my main task was to command right flank of battle-line and keep Ogres in front of me occupied.
Of course centre of Ogre army was 6x5 horde of ogre infantry (ordinary core ogres in that case) filled with characters like:
- firebelly
- 2 heros/lords with high strength (8) attacks
- BSB with hellheart

Flanks of this unit were protected by small (3 model) monstrous cavalry units.

What I could throw against it was:
- main combat unit of 28 sword masters with BotWD, Everqueen, BSB
- left flank support 20 PG with razor banner
- right flank support of 6 SH dart + 18 archers
- 2 bolt throwers battery to provide supporting fire
- eagles, reavers as redirectors

In such situations I usually put a lot of long range pressure on horde unit (by shooting and spells like fiery convocation), then charge in by close combat competent unit to finish the job. However this time it was not easy at all:)
- Fiery Convocation that went off first turn was redirected by Hellheart to meaningless chaff unit, any further magic offensive was pointless
- all shooting I could bring was pointless as well - all I could potentially do was to kill one Ogre a turn on average

Close combat was the only way (I could see) to put a dent in them. So, my plan was to charge flank of monstrous cavalry on left flank with PG, score big combat resolution, force enemy unit to flee and overrun to Ogre horde flank. This way I could use my PG as fixing force and allow safe charge for swordmasters without risk of being charged by Ogres (and taking impact hits on face), in case they fail charge distance roll. SH dart was moved to occupy MC on other flank.
Well, execution was almost perfect. I have managed to break MC with PG but unlucky pursuit roll (like snake eyes) ruined everything. PG were put out of position and overrun by enemy supporting units next turn. Sword masters were left alone face to face with Ogre horde. I haven't taken any risk to engage them. It all ended up with cat and mouse game of redirection and threat projection (my opponent seemed to be afraid to engage me without securing a clear charge and impact hits).

I had to tell this story because obviously I will be put in similar situation again. Ogres are mocking with me they want to taste elven flesh... I have answered that all I can ever offer is the taste of Ithilmar and I intend to keep that promise without running away from fights :)

So, I know that usual tactic against Ogre/Irongut horde is redirect and avoid. However, if you were determined to try to beat this kind of unit, how would you proceed?

Is a big/moderate unit of warded (Everqueen or Anointed + High Magic) swordmasters (that relay on the WS superiority for protection as well) a good idea? Or would you tailor combat blocks differently?
What tactical situation would you try to achieve in order to get upper hand in CC with such unit?
Or should I just stick to redirecting them and forget about engagement?

Frankly speaking I have just described my entire experience with fighting Ogres, so any advice/dirty trick is welcome.
Post Reply