The 8e High Elves Handbook

[pk-ng]

My different opinions of the Lores.
Beast
Everything good but Panns, I rate it Green or Yellow as it's very conditional
The ideal 4 spells I want Amber Spear, Curse, Savage & Wildform

Death
Spirt Leech: Blue the signautre spell is one of the best spells to default to.
Aspect of the Dreadknight: Red compared to the other spells in the lore this is the most useless spell as most armies have BSB to re-roll fear/terror test and those that don't have a BSB don't need to worry about fear/terror.
Caress of Laniph: Blue
Doom and Darkness: Blue/Purple as it affects panic, break test, crumble and demonic instability.
The ideal 4 spells I want D&D, Purple Sun, Soulblight & either Caress or Spirit Leech

Fire
Lore Attribute: Yellow, it's ok but conditional at best.
The ideal 4 spells I want Fireball, Flaming Sword and I don't know lol

Heavens
Lore Attribute: Agree with you but it's an unsuspecting lore attribute which helps alot.
Wind Blast: Red useless compared with other spells in the lore you'll always drop this for Iceshard.
Comet: Blue this is pretty much the spell you want in the lore as it is very threatening as it can create no-go zones. Dedicates movement of the enemy!
Chain Lightning: Green. High casting value for an upgraded version of Thunderbolt. Only D6 you'll mainly target lone characters but it 6" jump range and needing to roll for it I'll rather have Thunderbolt.
Overall: green/blue its list dependant.
The ideal 4 spells I want Ice Shard, Thunderbolt, Comet and toss up between the remaining spells but not wind blast

High
Too early to tell. So won't comment
Overall: Green for now because High has low range and the Lore Attribute is a bit iffy as what happens if you go into combat? The things that need the ward in HE army needs to go into combat. Do you really need a ward save on a unit of bunker Archers?

Life
Thrones: Purple must have a the lore is general isn't great.
Shield: Debatable maybe green due to other spells in the lore.
Overall: Debatable as experienced players know what to dispel and it's Throne and Dwellers at the start. Once you're in combat it's Throne + whatever you fancy.
The ideal 4 spells I want Thrones, Flesh to Stone, Dewellers and whatever tickles your fancy.

Light
Light of Battle: I will rate is yellow because compared to other spells in the lore it's very situational.
The ideal 4 spells I want Pha's, Banishment, Timewarp toss up between Shem's, Net and Speed of Light

Metal
Searing Doom: Blue/Purple. People use this Lore only for 2 spells which is Searing Doom and Final Transmutation. Great for lore for a support mage or scroll caddy.
The ideal 4 spells I want Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robes, Final Transmutation (I may use Gehenna's depending on match up).

Shadow
All agree:
The ideal 4 spells I want Miasma, Withering, Pit & Mindrazor!

[rothgar13]

Allow me to respond to your comments:

I like Pann's at Green for High Elves. No matter what sort of foe you're fighting, +3T on your BSB or something is nice. The spell's worst case scenario is it forces to make less armor saves that you're likely to make anyway, but even that small reduction in rolls made can result in fewer Wounds taken. 1s always fail, after all.

You make a good point about Doom & Darkness. High Elves as currently constructed will struggle to break Steadfast (so the -3 Ld matters a bit more). However, I will stand my ground on the Spirit Leech point - the typical High Elf army will be rocking a highest Ld of 9, and that's not good enough to really get major juice out of Spirit Leech in my experience (and my experience with the spell is extensive - I've used Death on my Beastmen for years, and it's been most effective with the new FAQ and my Beastlord granting Ld10). I'm also leaning toward making Aspect of the Dreadknight Red, since Phoenix Guard already cause Fear and the other elites can just have an Anointed sit in their unit for ItP.

I like Kindleflame, to be honest with you. It's one-dimensional, but that one dimension is pretty helpful. It's too bad the Lore basically boils to "how can you inflict S4 Flaming hits on things?".

You make a compelling argument for Wind Blast being Red, but I want to hedge my assessment and see if someone can come out of the woodwork with some awesome way of using it that I haven't thought of. I'm also swayed by your argument for Comet, but having seen firsthand the damage a Chain Lightning can do, I'm going to stick to my guns on the latter.

I'm going to disagree with you on High Magic - that's a Lore for a combat caster, and the ranges and nature of the spells (a heal, a movement advancer) and the Lore Attribute reflect that. If you put the Mage up front, all of a sudden the Lore works like a charm. The only question is if you're willing to assume an additional degree of risk to do so.

Again, I must disagree. I use Life with my Empire, and while I will take Throne of Vines if I roll it, I won't necessarily bet the farm on it. The Lore is plenty good without it, even for High Elves who don't have tons of things with 1+ saves to heal.

For High Elves, I agree - Light of Battle will rarely happen. I'll make the change.

Disagree on Searing Doom. It's only good if the target has a 4+ save or better, and if it's not very numerous. That's conditional enough to keep it from being a potent general-use tool, which is what Blue will imply.

[pk-ng]

Re: High Magic
Combat caster that's what I'm worried about. That means
a) You're putting your caster in unnesscary danger
b) therefore you need to buy him some sort of protection (or better protection which means ward saves).
As you've said am I willing to take the risk. If they enemy can soak up the 1st round of combat your mage will be in target range. T3 W3 3++/4++ can be chewed on with easy.
Maybe it's a playstyle perspective

Re: Searing Doom
Not sure about your meta but its all about MCs (which usually have 1+ or 2+ AS). Knights are also coming back into play (espeically for HE) so searing doom is quite good. Have to see how the meta will evolve with the new HE book.

[aurynn]

I must intervene on behalf of Wind Blast. It is a deceptively low-threat spell, which never gets dispelled and can do world of good against chariots, Screaming Bells, and other contraptions that take hits whenever they collide with anything. It can also push an enemy unit out of reasonable charge distance, waylaying his combo charge and traps, push redirectors away from their position, push expensive cavalry into dangerous terrain, pushing enemy unit to get your unit out of charge arc, pushing shooting units out of short range or shooting range, push warmachines on a hill beyond the hill so they lose LOS, etc... It requires more thought to use than other spells, but it can be so incredibly useful that I usually rather other spells for Sig instead of this and tend to pray for the Wind Blast.

EDIT: Just thought another use - King of the hill scenario - push them away!
As a LOT of the battles are decided during movement phase and the critical movements are made with half-an-inch precision, I find this spell lovely indeed.

[rothgar13]

Yeah, I figured someone would defend it, so I'll stick to Yellow. It's hard to use, but it's not crap.

[jhneoh]

I was thinking long and hard about magic lores as well, and here's my thoughts.

+: Pro
-: Con
*: Opinion

High
- Weak towards Ogre Kingdoms and WOC Dual Chimera + Gorebeast Chariot lists, and any other armies with Monstrous Infantry or Monstrous Cavalry units, and just Monsters in general.
+ Great versus everything else. Flames of the Phoenix and Fury of Khaine are great damage dealers.
* Very matchup dependant. Against hordes and infantry blocks, if you can roll Flames of the Phoenix you'll be laughing. Against Monsters, there isn't much you can do.

Shadow
+ Okkam's Mindrazor, Pit of Shades and Withering are all deadly
+ Enfeebling Foe helps protect our squishy White Lions.
+/- Withering and Enfeebling Foe are RIP spells, hence your opponent has another chance to dispel them during his turn. While this will be drain on his PD, the fact that he gets a crucial turn to dispel them after charging into combat is potentially quite painful.
* Still a great lore, but very very dependent on good Winds of Magic. Failing to land a vital Withering or Enfeebling Foe on a WoC block before combat can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
* Withering and Okkams Mindrazor combines well with Archer blocks. Should be premier choice for heavy Archer core armies.
* In particular, Okkams on Archers as a last ditch kamikaze attack is a great way of softening up an opposing Deathstar. 5x3 blocks will have a full 15 re-rollable S8 attacks.

Beasts
+ Wyssans Wildform is a good signature spell for elves. Best used on Phoenix Guard for S5 T4 4++. White Lions still die at T4, and S7 is unnecessary most of the time.
+ Savage Beast of Horrors is beastly (ha!) if you run a foot BSB with Reaver Bow and Halberd.
+ Curse of Anraheir is the ultimate delaying tool. No unit will march if they have this cast on them.
+ Amber Spear is a great choice versus Gutstars, Gorebeast Chariots, Monsters etc.
- Unable to deal with hordes. T4 isnt going to save you in protracted combats with 50 zombies or 50 halberdiers. You'll still lose the war of attrition.

I don't have enough experience with the other lores so I won't comment on them.

If your meta is full of Hordes, go High
If your meta has OK and WoC, or if you run lots of Archers, go Shadow
If you want a balanced lore, go Beasts. It's just a good, all-rounder lore.

[Arcwain]

Could you please include under the magic items section the two items you may take if you field the Everqueen?

The Horn of Isha
and the Banner of Avelorn (I see this item as great if you try to run a coven list).

Thank you for compiling this great list.

Arcwain

[Mrfantastical]

Re: High Magic
Combat caster that's what I'm worried about. That means
a) You're putting your caster in unnesscary danger
b) therefore you need to buy him some sort of protection (or better protection which means ward saves).
As you've said am I willing to take the risk. If they enemy can soak up the 1st round of combat your mage will be in target range. T3 W3 3++/4++ can be chewed on with easy.
Maybe it's a playstyle perspective

Re: Searing Doom
Not sure about your meta but its all about MCs (which usually have 1+ or 2+ AS). Knights are also coming back into play (espeically for HE) so searing doom is quite good. Have to see how the meta will evolve with the new HE book.

Maybe it's cause I'm coming from Ogres, but you can have a Mage in CC (I use to run with a slaughtermaster in CC all the time). Now i know our Archmages are never going to be combat monsters like Slaughtermasters, but that doesn't meant hey should avoid CC altogether.

I've played over 15+ games with my archmage (high magic) in a CC block. I've only lost him once and that was due to a Miscast.

If you want Security for your CC Archmage (High):
*give him fencers blades
*Give him golden crown
*put him in a unit with an Anointed

I've been happy with the results.

[rothgar13]

See above. This is more or less what I hand in mind for a "fighting Archmage".

@Arcwain: I'll be sure to include them once I add the Special Characters stuff in, yeah.

[liuyelian]

The higher points costs associated with the units combined with most units being mediocre defensively mean that High Elves are at their best when throwing the first punch

[Abhorash.]

Rothgar, this truly is a great report. However as I face Warriors of Chaos more then half of the time, there are some things I think could be ranked 1 color higher.

Star Lance: This item is amazing in my eyes, take it on a Dragon Prince Champ, and he alone can drop one Skullcrusher before the rest of the unit attempts to slip some wounds through. Also the point cost for the item is pretty damn good. I've killed many Exalted BSB's on foot with this, who commonly sport a 1+ armor save with that nasty scaly skin. *And by many I mean like 3.

Flamespyre Phoenix as a mount: It is not the greatest choice, however with the Annointed on top it means the thing is not so much a combat unit, but more of a serious thorn in your opponents side. I would rank this at, at least yellow. But a Frostheart will almost always be a better choice. Red is a little harsh for a unit that never really dies. Plus you can always focus on flying over units, before rear charging a combat to generate some good 'Res.

Swordmasters of Hoeth: Of course they are the #3 spot out of our Elite Infantry, but when taken in larger units (7x3), with either Banner of the World Dragon, an Annointed, Loremaster, or an Archmage, I have witnessed them drop 12 Nurgle Warriors in one turn of combat. the 6 WS really makes them shine against Warriors, not to mention they are pretty cheap now. I would rank them in blue for sure. Many would disagree with me though. In combat I run 21 of them with a Loremaster, If you get off Wyssons in combat these dudes become White Lions final form. Wyssons with the Bookmaster is easy to pull off.

Hand of Glory: Out of all the spells in the lore of High Magic this would be the one to rank as blue. Making our elites hit on 3's instead of 4's is amazing, as is the ability to reduce the damage we take by raising their initiative to 6+. My opponent hates this spell, as more often than not when he gets his Warriors into combat with my White Lions, they are going to be Weapon Skill 7 and Initiative 7. Striking at the same time is not a good thing for Lions and Masters. I am biased towards this, due to the fact that going from hitting Nurgle Warriors on 5's and going at the same time - to hitting them on 4's and going first is massive for that combat.

Then there is a whole other aspect to the spell. Movement is just kinda nice to guarantee a charge, Its really fun to have Movement 8 White Lions, your opponent forgets about it, then you pull off a huge charge. But the truly amazing part of this spell, in my eyes, is the ability to raise a units' ballistic skill by D3 on a 5+ casting cost. Eagle Claw Bolt throwers are suddenly hitting on 2's and Sisters of Avelorn with 6-8 Ballistic skill is disgusting. In fact when I roll for my spells from High Magic I always hope for this spell. Then again you are basing your color coding from an all comers standpoint, so against non-elite armies the Weapon Skill and Initiative buffing becomes more of a gimmick than anything. I still will stand by the crucial advantage of guaranteeing my Bolt thrower hits on the turn I need it most. Also a unit of 15 sisters with 7BS is just always so much fun.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Great report, and I hope I didn't come off as too critical.

[boli]

I think you have massively underrated the Flamespyre Phoneix.

The two Phoenix are like the yin and yang of a HE toolkit: Against a slew of high Strength attacks and High Toughness troops (Orcs, Warrior of Chaos?) the Frost Phoenix superior; hands down.

But against Skaven Night Goblins or Undead the "Wake of Fire" is absolutely devastating; add to that if you opponent kills it / runs it down having a 50% chance to do a large template S4 attacks where it died can be particularly brutal, (especially if they ran you down).

Combine with Walk Between Worlds a single Flamespyre can travel over 40" in a single turn; or 20" there and back.

If you knew which opponent you were facing you could choose two of one type - or if you were playing "all-comers" I think one of each will be far more valuable then just auto-taking 2 frost.

[Eltherion]

Nice overview, there will always be debate re- the strength of various spells.

Lore of Metal
Searing Doom I rate about the same as a Fireball both spells being good for different purposes.

Fireballs you can boost up for big blocks and extra range whereas Searing Doom for 1+ Armored troops including high toughness Doomwheels, etc...

[rothgar13]

I disagree - Fireball is rated as high as it is for its great range, tunable strengths, and wealth of viable targets. While a well-placed Searing Doom on the right target will do more damage than a Fireball, the circumstances for that to occur simply aren't as common, and thus the spell has less value.

As for Flamespyre v. Frostheart... I don't believe that Wake of Fire and the occasional Phoenix Reborn template make up for the fact that it's not a good combat piece, and it costs a lot of points. I consider it to be firmly in the "there are better things in this section" camp, and I think that descriptor applies to pretty much every other unit in Rare.

[Malossar]

I think you missed two of the most important spells in Lore of Heavens. Curse of the Midnight Wind and Harmonic Convergence.

Convergence is a great buff especially when boosted. It increases the threats of our shooters including the Reaver Bow BsB, bolt throwers and the lowly archer. It keeps cav hammers alive and provides a small recooperation of rerolling for our White Lions and Swordmasters. Truly a great spell for the High Elf Combined Arms, Shooting, and Cav Hammer lists.


Curse on the other hand forces rerolls on our enemies. Ever tried wounding a frost phoenix when forced to reroll 6s? It's almost impossible. Really increases our heavy hitter survivability and also helps keep our other squishier stuff alive by rerolling 6s to hit and to wound.


Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[rothgar13]

I'm not really sold on the concept of a shooty list rocking Heavens over Shadow, which is where Harmonic Convergence would earn its keep, because it's redundant with ASF in close combat for a lot of units. Re-rolling 1s on shots is nice; getting -D3 Toughness is better. As for the Curse of the Midnight Wind... It has 3 scenarios where it does well; 1. Your opponent has Poison or Killing Blow (shuts that down); 2. Your opponent hits or wounds on 5+ (pretty much just the Phoenix); 3. You have enough armor penetration to reduce his saves to 5+ or worse (maybe the most common, which is pretty telling). I just don't think either is generally applicable enough to warrant a rating increase. I'd definitely rather have either of the Lightning spells, Iceshard, or Comet over them.

I also feel like I should go ahead and address Abhorash's thoughts: upon further consideration, I may be underrating the Star Lance a bit - it really helps against armor/high Toughness, and that's something you'll find in several armies these days. The rest is pretty well covered under the "I consider the all-comers matchup, not the vs. one army matchup" disclaimer in my guide.

[Caradryal]

Excellent thread rothgar.

This is shaping up to be an invaluable thread for new players

[Teldoran]

Really great report, some things here which I haven't though about yet.
But here are my thoughts

I really LOVE searing doom, but that's generally since I often play against WoC and nothing is more fun than melting Chaos knights 8 at a turn. (If you have a bit of luck)
I dislike Phoenix guards because they don't have the same punch as White lions or Swordmasters. They just deal a bit less damage than I want to pick them as my main unit.

That being said I changed my way of playing since the new rulebook. Considering that you only get points if you whipe a whole unit, I like to stick to huge blocks. It mostly gives you draws/wins. But almost never a real lose.

50x Spearmen always feels good. Banner of the Eternal flame and just let em hold stuff, with a bit of magic they can stand in combat for just long enough to get in the reinforcement.

40x White Lions/Swordsmasters + Arch Mage with High Elf Magic, with the new martial prowess just put everything in a horde and Go go! You've 40 S6 or 50S5, most likely with Reroll and for Swordmasters I would pick a Razorstandard (armour piercing). Combining this with a 3+/4+ ward save because you will get enough spells off if you're lucky, you have to most fearsome unit in the game. You can run through an huge units of ogres without a problem (I once killed 9 ogre's in one combat phas with 30 white lions.)
Give the unit a Banner of the World Dragon and they're save. I haven't played enough games yet, but I think this is one of the nastiest things you can do. Correct me if im wrong ^^

And just another question which I was actually searching when i stumbled at this Topic, can lothern skycutters march? Since they are not normale chariots and stuff...... GW hasn't brought out a FAQ yet so I have no idea.

[Domine Nox]

40x White Lions/Swordsmasters + Arch Mage with High Elf Magic, with the new martial prowess just put everything in a horde and Go go! You've 40 S6 or 50S5, most likely with Reroll and for Swordmasters I would pick a Razorstandard (armour piercing). Combining this with a 3+/4+ ward save because you will get enough spells off if you're lucky, you have to most fearsome unit in the game.

White Lions and Swordmasters never get re-rolls, their ASF and ASL cancel each other out. White Lions and Swordmasters just attack at Initiative like everybody else. While the Phoenix Guard that you said lacked the punch as they are only S4, but they DO get the re-rolls, and they START with a 4+ ward save out of the gate, so they don't need lucky high magic to give them the same survivability as Swordmasters or White Lions.

Banner of the World Dragon is nice, but its ward is only against Magical attacks. So if you're already pretty sure you're getting a good ward from your archmage it's a little redundant.

can lothern skycutters march? Since they are not normale chariots and stuff...... GW hasn't brought out a FAQ yet so I have no idea.

The consensus this forum came too was no, since it is still a chariot, it follows chariot rules.

[Teldoran]

On every major tournament I was people rerolled attacks with Swordmasters, isn't even a swordmaster the example in the rulebook? Because if that's true my whole life is a lie xD.

Edit:
Dear shit Helfs suck.... xD How can nobody ever corrected this?

[rothgar13]

That's a relatively recent change. The old book allowed re-rolls with great weapons, the current one doesn't.

[TeclisCTUS]

I have to tip my hat to Dale Johnson, then, because I would not even be taking a Dragon-riding Prince to my local tourneys (but then again, those are crawling with Ironblasters, Khannons, Terrorgheists, and Steam Tanks )

Why does the Terrorghiest worry you with the Dragon Lord?

[rothgar13]

It's not the Terrorgheist in a vacuum - it's the Scream list as a whole. When combined with Doom & Darkness from Lore of Death, Iceshard Blizzard from Lore of Heavens, the Aura of Dark Majesty, and having 2 of them available, they can easily make any isolated target without amazing Ward saves melt in a single turn, and they have an effective striking range of 28" (since they can march - provided they are in the General's Ld bubble - and scream). If you have lone models, you're afraid of Terrorgheists. High Elf shooting is poorly suited to handle a T6/W6 monster that can be healed, and having a Dragon Lord means you're not packing a L4 and by extension the magic that CAN take it out. Between that, 2-Cannon + 2-STank Empire lists (which I proudly employ), and the 2 mobile Cannons every Daemon and Ogre player employs, I think a Dragon Lord is folly.

[HERO]

I haven't looked at this for a while, but I generally find the colors to be quite confusing. I suggest 3 colors for simplicity sakes.

[lordoftheshadows]

@HERO
Are you sure you replied to the right thread?

[HERO]

@HERO
Are you sure you replied to the right thread?

Please, because:

Red is dead. This is a choice that's so bad, it actively detracts from your army synergy and makes your list a worse one overall.
Yellow is conditional. It may shine in certain matchup or when used in certain ways, but in general it's a subpar choice.
Green is the average. Not necessarily a great choice, but it's rarely one you'll end up regretting.
Blue is an above-average or exceptional choice. These options frequently increase army synergy and overall list strength.
Purple is the highest rating in this handbook, and it's reserved for choices that should be staples in virtually all competitive lists. Don't leave home without 'em.

Is a pretty long-winded way of saying, bad, decent and good, with red, yellow and green.

[rothgar13]

I think there are a few more degrees of separation than that. To be honest, I've thought of slotting in one more color, because 5 sometimes feels limiting.

[HERO]

I think there are a few more degrees of separation than that. To be honest, I've thought of slotting in one more color, because 5 sometimes feels limiting.

I disagree, but it's your guide, do as you wish!

[rothgar13]

The main divide that I feel has to be made is when categorizing units from OK to good to great. What's bad and what's conditional is pretty easy to see. But for example, would you say Swordmasters are an objectively bad or conditional unit? I wouldn't. But would you say they're as good as White Lions? Again, I wouldn't. And in turn, would you say those White Lions are as good at their jobs as a Frostheart is at its job? These are the sorts of divides that these higher categories are meant to separate.

[daid13]

If you are using something that actually has proper colours and you know the order of the colours in the rainbow I don't see how it is confusing.