If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#91 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Lord Soulfern wrote:Bigger charge range, 3d6 without removing the lowest die would do the trick ?
That just makes them awesomely swift, and not reckless at all..
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#92 Post by Sackree »

3d6 would be more of a reaver charge, not Helms as they are in heavy Armour on barded horses
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#93 Post by Ptolemy »

After looking through the WoC book over the past two days....I think it gives alot of insight into how elite armies might be handled in 8th (WoC being the first such army to be tackled).

Based on how things like Forsaken were treated, I think you can expect few if any point drops in an 8th ed elf army. I know we all moan about it, but Forsaken were something that sort of screamed for a point drop. Instead they got heavier armor, a random chart and moved to core. They also went up a point. I can see spears getting heavy armor. I can't see points going down.

The inclusion of the Chimera was very interesting. Was a move to boost kit sales from Storm of Magic monsters with no other use? Possibly. Was it intentional game design from the beginning to include Storm of Magic models in general lists? Possibly. Either way...its not the first time that Storm of Magic models with SoM options have appeared. War Lion packs seem more likely than before to show up in 8th ed HE.

Tiranoc chariots in core. I think its a near given. Slight point drop as well if WoC is any indication. The rumors of flying chariots? Who the heck knows what they are or what they'll do.

Eagles in special? Would limit the army to 3 but if there is any spot in the HE list to really add kits for sales purposes, rares are the place. From a $$ perspective, you don't want people committing 200 pts out of a possible 625 to already purchased models.

Speaking of rares - After seeing the Slaughterbrute and Cthulu's lovechild, I'm done bothering to guess. We have all mentioned dragons/dragon riders/phoenix and so on as sort of the 'likely' options to appear. Frankly, the only new unit that came out with WoC that was predictable was Khorne Juggernaut MC. Everything else was so far out of left field who the hell knows what they are doing.

Now, in some respects, you literally can get away with anything when it comes to Chaos. With High Elves, lots of us are fluff snobs (just look at everyone wanting kingdom by kingdom units). I don't see the Chamber of the Everchosen debating the best Everchosen of all time. I don't know if HE fluff is more of a sacred cow (pardon the metaphor) than other armies are in the GW design process, but predicting new units at this point seems almost pointless

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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#94 Post by RedAl »

I had similar thoughts, the WOC release seems to suggest just about anything is possible.

New units are pretty much guaranteed what they will be is anyone's guess.

Lion packs would be awesome. special choices one would imagine, I'll take 3 small units please. (would imagine they would be unit sized like sabretusks).

Tiranoic chariots to core would seem highly likely, though the spearmen archer and seaguard thing in the fluff seems like a big hurdle to overcome unless they just say f*ck it take whatever you want.

A flying buff chariot would seem well within the realms of possibility these days, I'll wait and see could be great could be terrible.

Quite a few things in the new WOC book did get a points drop so we shouldn't assume anything either way, all we can say is that plenty of stuff will change because HE definitely don't gel with 8th edition.

Lastly I would say that if a HE book is say 6 months away etc then chances are its already well under way if not mostly done by now so we shouldn't assume the pattern of the WOC book is the template etc though its possible.

Al
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#95 Post by Tarval »

Well 40k has beenbringing in big things. As well each dex of warhammer has been adding in some new big toys.

I myself would like to see a core with hand weopon, shield, heavy armour. Another province as well this adds to the theme of citizens armies. Stronger and a bigger core selection as well as making elites, elites even more. I think it would just be great to see and high elf army show up thats has more troops. Massive citizen army backed with a few elite units. Justsee the look of a skaven player now,,,,your spearmen are now four points.

Something else to think about it upping are requied core amount. Then again your looking at adding something to core to bring them in line.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#96 Post by Ptolemy »

RedAl wrote:I had similar thoughts, the WOC release seems to suggest just about anything is possible.

New units are pretty much guaranteed what they will be is anyone's guess.

Lion packs would be awesome. special choices one would imagine, I'll take 3 small units please. (would imagine they would be unit sized like sabretusks).

Tiranoic chariots to core would seem highly likely, though the spearmen archer and seaguard thing in the fluff seems like a big hurdle to overcome unless they just say f*ck it take whatever you want.

A flying buff chariot would seem well within the realms of possibility these days, I'll wait and see could be great could be terrible.

Quite a few things in the new WOC book did get a points drop so we shouldn't assume anything either way, all we can say is that plenty of stuff will change because HE definitely don't gel with 8th edition.

Lastly I would say that if a HE book is say 6 months away etc then chances are its already well under way if not mostly done by now so we shouldn't assume the pattern of the WOC book is the template etc though its possible.

Al
Fair points all around, Al.

I don't necessarily see any of the books (except Ogres) taking previously unplayable things or underpowered things and boosting them. Instead, I've seen them replace them. Fortunately for us, HEs do not have ANY choices that are undercosted. One look at marauders and you quickly realize they aren't going to let things that are undercosted stay that way.

As far as bringing HEs in line with 8th? Thats just a single MC or MI unit away and done. God forbid we get a 2+ armor MC choice with Dragon armor. Metal magic? pfft.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#97 Post by akielzather »

Agreed. WOC book has several new things out of the park, with massive boast to core selection with rare getting all sort of new toys.
Chimera - makes sence fluff wise.
Forsaken-Well, core makes sence, what they did to them, not sure it has made them any better.


Still think T chariot and reavers will hit core option. Citzen leve, might make a reappearance like in earlier additions. Good range of options and deal with the biggest grip allot of HE players have. Limited core choice.

Special - Can not see much change in here. maybe a riderless griffon? For 150.

Rare - Ptomy has hit the nail on the head..But what could we get.

A warmachine Kit?
Monsterous cav/inf of some sort.
Treemen maybe

Yes we are fluff snobs, but we have a history of great fluff. And supporting story lines to encourage this. With GW prices now making younger players less likely to play fantasy(compared to small 40k battles) they need to focus on getting the attention of, well the older players who have the income to buy this stuff.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#98 Post by Coomitock »

Quite right! It is excellent idea. It is ready to support you.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#99 Post by Farseer »

riderless griffin doesnt work. aren't they wild ferel beasts which can become increadably loyal to a single elf? They aren't clever allies like the eagles
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#100 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Farseer wrote:riderless griffin doesnt work. aren't they wild ferel beasts which can become increadably loyal to a single elf? They aren't clever allies like the eagles
Eh, they'd just change the fluff like they did to allow lion chariots.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#101 Post by Prince of Spires »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Farseer wrote:riderless griffin doesnt work. aren't they wild ferel beasts which can become increadably loyal to a single elf? They aren't clever allies like the eagles
Eh, they'd just change the fluff like they did to allow lion chariots.
Griffon Chariot!!!

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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#102 Post by wisetiger7 »

Seeing as Daemons are getting two flying chariots, I can see it as something quite possible for High Elves. And seeing how Daemons are getting a cannon, which they used to have, and then GW took it away long ago, it is very possible that we may be getting something back that was long lost.

My grievance is fundamentally about the difference between order and chaos. It is clearly obvious GW favors the chaos side of things. Look at the top tier. In no specific order, I think it is widely considered that warriors, daemons, skaven, and dark elves are top tier, as well as most vampire builds, all while the bottom two (wood elves and brets, by my account) have no book in sight. And that is all without special characters. Sure with Teclis, we are considered top tier to many. But when you see warriors' generic lord on disc get better, and daemons getting a cannon again (like they need it... really!), its hard to remain submissive as someone who loves high elves.

Empire, Ogres, and Tomb Kings books were all middle of the road (a little more for Ogres, a little less for TK by my standards), yet they make Daemons and Warriors stupid good. Sure, greenskins got an average book as well. I haven't seen the new warriors play yet, but on paper they are yet again a strong, top tier army. I am sure that with the inclusion of a cannon, Daemons will remain top tier as well. But lets spread the love GW!
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#103 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

wisetiger7 wrote:Seeing as Daemons are getting two flying chariots, I can see it as something quite possible for High Elves. And seeing how Daemons are getting a cannon, which they used to have, and then GW took it away long ago, it is very possible that we may be getting something back that was long lost.
We've not really lost anything though. WAY back in 4e we could take basic elves and choose how to arm them (sword and shield for example), and LSG had the option of halberds. Other then that we've only lost SCs (several from 5e) and a unit you could only take if you took a specific SC.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#104 Post by wisetiger7 »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:We've not really lost anything though. WAY back in 4e we could take basic elves and choose how to arm them (sword and shield for example), and LSG had the option of halberds. Other then that we've only lost SCs (several from 5e) and a unit you could only take if you took a specific SC.
One thing that we can be almost 100% sure of is that they will take out most of the magic items we have at our disposal now. Looking at all the recent 8th edition army books, there is usually only 1-2 pages of magic items, around 1-2 items from each magic category (weapons, armor, talismans, banners, etc). On top of that, several other races get 'gifts' or 'powers', which we may not (and probably won't) get. Even Ogres got screwed, as their 'big names' count toward their magic item allotment. Chaos gets 100pts in magic items and 50pts in gifts? Daemons will probably as well? Vampires get 100pts in magic items AND 100pts in powers?!? That's favoritism in the clearest form. Yet our items are going away, and we probably won't get any gifts or powers to buy, and these are pretty much guaranteed. Where's the love?

One thing to hope for is 'Loremaster'. They gave Loremaster as an option for Vamps. We should DEFINITELY be getting it (logically, not sure if GW is very logical or not... has yet to be seen :lol: ). "Only those who are most magically gifted, and have proven their dedication beyond doubt, are given the privelege of being taught within the White Tower. There the greatest collection of mages, loremasters and scholars in the world strive to perfect their mastery of the sorcerous arts... In times of strife, the Phoenix King will beseech the Tower of Hoeth for aid, and the Loremasters of Saphery never shirk from their duty." Page 45 HE Army Book.

Even the Empire sends one or both of its Arch Lectors to battle. You would think we could send at least one of our Loremasters into battle (other than Teclis).

I don't want to sound like I'm whining, if I'm coming off that way. GW is going to do what they're going to do. And I'm fine with the way our army is right now. I just don't want us to be worse. Sure things could be better, but things could get a lot worse too. Gotta just take it with a grain of salt, as they say.
Last edited by wisetiger7 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#105 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

I wouldn't be shocked if they keep a lot more items in then has been the norm so far, or replace them with a "skills list" of some sort, and maybe some new mundane equipment. Otherwise they have a tough job of figuring out how to make the army work.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#106 Post by Elithmar »

In the new army books, are the magic item lists just shorter versions of the old ones or are there a lot of new items instead? We might find we have almost none of our current items as they are replaced by new ones.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#107 Post by RedAl »

The magic item lists in the new books have so far been a mixture of some items from previous book reworked slighlty or completely and some new items while many items have just gone completely.

The pattern is very clear. they are cutting down on race specific magic items because there is such a huge list in the main rulebook. With more characters taking from that it speeds up gameplay because most players after a time pretty much know what they all do.

Personally I always liked the uniqueness that the item lists in the army books gave to each race alongside the fluff and special rules. But it will hardly be the death of Warhammer.

Whether we get more or less than the 8th ed books so far who knows, probably unlikely to get many more it at all. Will honours or some such mechanic make an appearance? We can hope but don't hold your breath.

I would disagree that the Vampires powers etc shows favouritism. Vampires after all hold a unique place in their army, if they die (at least the general) there goes the game pretty much. Yes in retrospect Tomb Kings Hierophants got a rough ride in comparison but Vampires are well Vampires, they are meant to be kick ass and there are still ways and means of dealing with them.

To me having decent characters will be icing on the cake the heart of a decent book will be a well designed list with good troops and support choices.

Al
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#108 Post by Prince of Spires »

RedAl wrote: The pattern is very clear. they are cutting down on race specific magic items because there is such a huge list in the main rulebook.
I think the logic is slightly the other way round. To me it looks like they sat down to work on 8th edition and thought: what unbalances armies and how can we change that (without limiting models etc). So they decided to limit items (which are indeed a big unbalancing factor) in army books. To keep the option to give your characters special items and to offer a bit of choice, they had to introduce a big special item section in the BRB. Since everyone has acces to them, it is less unbalancing. Though of course items affect different characters in different ways...

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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#109 Post by wisetiger7 »

Ugh. If only there were more than a handful of items that were actually useful in the BRB... :lol:
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#110 Post by Elithmar »

wisetiger7 wrote:Ugh. If only there were more than a handful of items that were actually useful in the BRB... :lol:
Crown of command, which seems to be integral for some other armies, isn't even useful for us because of white lions and high leadership values. ;)
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#111 Post by Prince of Spires »

Elithmar of Lothern wrote:
wisetiger7 wrote:Ugh. If only there were more than a handful of items that were actually useful in the BRB... :lol:
Crown of command, which seems to be integral for some other armies, isn't even useful for us because of white lions and high leadership values. ;)
I would say that the flaming banner is the most used BRB item for HE at the moment. That would probably change if we lose most of our items though.

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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#112 Post by RedAl »

Just had a few thoughts recently about some ideas for a new book with a strong possibility that SoA will go as an armywide rule. (Harry from Warseer made a comment last week that gave that impression).


So its still very much a work in progress but my thoughts were:

Valour of Ages:

To change this from a particularly anti Dark Elf thing to a more general rule. To try and reflect the epic history and longevity of the Elves and the somewhat haughty and arrogant (we once ran the world you know!) flavour of the Asur.

On any Ld test you may reroll the highest dice (or either dice if you rolled a double). If you are in range of the BSB you must choose to either use Valour of Ages or Stand your Ground.

I'm not sure of the real effectiveness of this haven't done any math hammer or anything but it seems similar but perhaps not quite as good as cold blooded. It could be tweaked to only Psychology perhaps open to ideas.

Martial Prowess:

Units may fight and shoot in an extra rank and parry if armed with any one handed weapon (including magic weapons) and a shield.


The only question from here on is how widely do you apply martial prowess? Do you stick simply to Spears, Archers and Seaguard or spread it wider. Also the idea is some units will retain SoA (the 3 elite infantry and Dragon Princes and combat characters).


Also had an idea for the RBT.

Have 3 modes of firing and the option for a Hawkeye upgrade whiches gives you a 3rd wound and BS 5.

Mode 1: 10 shots Str 3 AP

Mode 2: 6 shots Str 5 AP

Mode 3: 1 shot, Str 7 D6 wounds, no AS, penetrates ranks.

For this I'd keep it at the same price as now with the Hawkeye costing say 10-15 pts.


Al
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#113 Post by Rip.dk »

well this is that i hope too see happen with the high elves:

Intrigue at Court: if more then one lord/hero have the same highest LD it is random who is the greneral, as high elves love intrigue and politics. (yes we all love too hate this rule, but is it fun and this way it will not be a lvl 1 mage who is greneral)

Citizen Levy: High elves infantry armed with spear and bow/L.bow fight and shoot with one more rank

ASF: as is

Lord: as is

Hero: i dont like the dragon mage so kill him or not i dont care :| :|

Core:

Archers as is

Spearmen can buy heavy armour +1 point

Sea Guards have shields inkl. in there price

Ellyrian Reavers join the core and bow + 3 point

Tiranoc join the core at 75 points

Special:

Silver helms +1 too WS and can take a magic banner(50 point)

Shadow warriors gett add. hand weapon and reroll too wound with L. bow

Lion Chariot +1 T

One Monsters Infantery unit wich i dont know of :P

Rest as is (maby +1 point too white lions yes they are good)

Rare:

Dragon princes join the rare and +1 S and A with a price jumb on 10 maybe 15 points. Cant buy champion as they all are one :D

Bolt Thower +1 member and +1 S too wolly or +2 shot (well i dont know what too take)

a true Dragon Prince, griffen stats with +1 W, 3+ save, breath weapon S3 and a dragon prince on top who share W wich the dragon. lets say 275 points.


Magic Ithems and spells is a oather story but they just need too be up too date...

Have fun
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Last edited by Rip.dk on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#114 Post by Overg »

RedAl wrote:
Also had an idea for the RBT.

Have 3 modes of firing and the option for a Hawkeye upgrade whiches gives you a 3rd wound and BS 5.

Mode 1: 10 shots Str 3 AP

Mode 2: 6 shots Str 5 AP

Mode 3: 1 shot, Str 7 D6 wounds, no AS, penetrates ranks.

For this I'd keep it at the same price as now with the Hawkeye costing say 10-15 pts.
Al
Way too powerfull imo. You are giving it the firepower of 10 archers - WITH BS 5, AP, light armor and 48" range, for the same price as the 10 archers. I know we hate the current pricetag of bolt trowers, and we would love to bring them, but this is imo a step (or two too far) :wink:
The thing is RPT's can work if you build your army to be a shooty one (Curse of arrow attraction, withering, soulblight, Harmonic convergence etc.) Like anything else in our army they need magical surport to function, but once they get it..

HE have never had the option of an artillery army, and I for one would hate if GW just gave us the standard fix-all-solution-to-monsters-and-baddies they have applied so far for other armies (ROFL LOL GPS GUIDED CANNONZ !!! pew pew!!).

+1 Crew (So they fix their "ooops" with crewmen being wound tokens #-o ) and perhaps a slight drop in price to say 90-95 and the RBT is fine. It could be fun if they implemented upgrades for it - flaming attacks or the upgrade one crew to hawkeye for an additional point cost, but not really needed. :)
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#115 Post by Elithmar »

If Adam Troke is still looking for ideas, we won't be getting book in May. :P
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#116 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Elithmar of Lothern wrote:If Adam Troke is still looking for ideas, we won't be getting book in May. :P
:lol: I was hoping someone would say this.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#117 Post by Alf »

I will like to see a unit of 3 to 5 griffon riders to create havoc on the enemy rear, and war machines. We can hope. :mrgreen:
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#118 Post by Tarval »

Acient eagle....? Monster/rare.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#119 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Tarval wrote:Acient eagle....? Monster/rare.
I'd set mine on fire and call it a Phoenix. :P
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#120 Post by SZUPERhun »

What if Swordmasters could attack +1 if the enemy has the ASL rule? The enemy is so slow with his weapon the swordmasters use that momentum to attack one more time.
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