If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

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guzzoid
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#31 Post by guzzoid »

I really like alot of the ideas posted in this forum. One idea that came to my mind was griffon warriors.

I would make it like peg knights but MONSTROUS!!!

I am kinda new to Warhammer so would that be an offensive idea? I just think it would be cool.
guzzoid
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#32 Post by guzzoid »

New SOA: Just regular ASF
But,
add Riposte- For every hit roll a die for every X(number) the hit is discounted and another attack is granted to the elf.

example: a unit of swordMasters would get riposte 4+, They would swing on their initiative and then the enemy would swing and get say 10 hits. the SM roll 10 dice and get 4+ on four dice. Six hits would go through and try to wound, and then the SM would get 4 more attacks at the enemy's initiative (at the same time).

for any elf that shoots: shooting hits on a 6 wounds auto and ignores armor saves. Something like that.

When I play the elves I want to be totally outnumbered and look like I am going to lose but still have a chance because of their awesomeness. The awesomeness has to be skill based not based on strength or toughness.
Farseer
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#33 Post by Farseer »

guzzoid wrote:
for any elf that shoots: shooting hits on a 6 wounds auto and ignores armor saves. Something like that.
killing blow on all bow units???
RedAl
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#34 Post by RedAl »

Farseer wrote:
guzzoid wrote:
for any elf that shoots: shooting hits on a 6 wounds auto and ignores armor saves. Something like that.
killing blow on all bow units???
Its worse than that its like Poison and no armour save combined. Wow who needs cannons or Bolt Throwers when normal High Elf archers can lay the smack down like that then. :P

Al
guzzoid
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#35 Post by guzzoid »

I don't know but I am just tired of elite archers doing 2 wounds a round to zombies or no wounds on woc.
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salteris
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#36 Post by salteris »

Maybe for HE we should have a new Poison/KB. Something simple like on 6's to hit, those hits ignore armor saves, but still have to wound. Call it "Precision" or something.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#37 Post by RedAl »

Personally I'd be happy with no long range penalty and if the unit has a champ and doesn't move gets multiple shot (2). Makes them somewhat better but not OP, still Str 3 no AP so Chaos Warriors, Dwarves will still shrug off most of those shots. Does however make them much better taking out chaff quickly and efficiently and if massed can think ranks on big hordes of Gors, Orcs etc.

As above and I think at 10pts with LA included they would be slightly undercosted if anything.

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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#38 Post by Malossar »

I agree that something needs to be done with the archers if GW wants us to move away from viewing our core as a tax and purposeful unit we're excited to spend points on.

Dark Elves have massed fire and AP, awesome.
Wood Elves receive no penalties when firing on the move, awesome.

What about High Elves? Where do our archers fit? What separates them from the average Empire huntsmen?
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#39 Post by wisetiger7 »

thelordcal wrote:What separates them from the average Empire huntsmen?
You mean besides the +1 to M, WS, BS, Ld, +2 I, ASF, Valour, and option for light armor? Not to mention the +6" range... Yah, they're totally the same. :? :roll: I agree that they should maybe reduce them by a point or so, but they are comparatively better than huntsmen.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#40 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

wisetiger7 wrote:
thelordcal wrote:What separates them from the average Empire huntsmen?
You mean besides the +1 to M, WS, BS, Ld, +2 I, ASF, Valour, and option for light armor? Not to mention the +6" range... Yah, they're totally the same. :? :roll: I agree that they should maybe reduce them by a point or so, but they are comparatively better than huntsmen.
Yes they have better stats. Most of those do NOTHING to make them better archers then the huntsmen though. If HE are supposed to great archers (and it is a typical elf skill) they need something to make them better ARCHERS then the huntsmen, not just a better unit.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#41 Post by Natwest »

ms2 is de territory, no long range is creeping into wood elf territory. what about some sort of regional bonus, so say chrace, higher str, vaul, armour piercing, the list goes on. it would give is a unique advantage, still individual but fluffy and not overpowered if done properly. also maybe a bs boost to set us apart. just my advice.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#42 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Natwest wrote:ms2 is de territory, no long range is creeping into wood elf territory. what about some sort of regional bonus, so say chrace, higher str, vaul, armour piercing, the list goes on. it would give is a unique advantage, still individual but fluffy and not overpowered if done properly. also maybe a bs boost to set us apart. just my advice.
I like the idea, but in the end I think it's pick one. I really don't see "regional lists" coming into play. Especially where the same unit can have different rules. One of the trends that's generally held since 6th is that they've stayed away from to many unit specific special rules (some have crept back in, but there are still tons less then there were in 5th). I just don't see massive amounts of new ones being added. They are great for giving units an elite/special feel. They can be hard to balance, and they tend to slow down game play (so much more to look up).
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#43 Post by wisetiger7 »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:Yes they have better stats. Most of those do NOTHING to make them better archers then the huntsmen though. If HE are supposed to great archers (and it is a typical elf skill) they need something to make them better ARCHERS then the huntsmen, not just a better unit.
I think this is where I would have to disagree with you. +1 BS gives them a better chance to hit something. +6" range gives them longer range and slightly longer short-distance shots. Those alone can be huge. With most battles starting out 24" apart, being able to fire 30" means not having to move first turn, which means we don't have to take the -1 penalty for moving and shooting. That's a 17% increase in chance to hit. Add the +1 we get from BS (being better than huntsmen) and that is a 34% increase that our shots will hit first turn. That alone makes us much better than huntsmen. Is it 3-4 points per model better? Maybe not. But it IS better.

Yes the dark elves have ms2. Yes the wood elves can move and shoot without the -1 penalty. But if, for some reason, we get into combat, our archers will hit first, on a 3+, and probably get rerolls (vs huntsmen). Couple that with the +1 BS and longer range, and it definitely DOES make them better than huntsmen, both as archers and close combat fighters. Those are the facts, and they are undisputed.

What some people may forget is that we are not an archer army. We are a martial army. We excel in all forms of combat. This is best represented by our ASF. I know that we are elves and we should be better archers than our human counterparts. And we are. But we are also better in combat and magic.

I think the only beef for me, if a beef should be had, would be the comparison between high elves and dark elves. We pretty much have the same units, but theirs are better and cheaper. THAT does not make sense, as we have had the sustainability to keep them out of Ulthuan since the Sundering. That should be accounted for by something.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#44 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Like I said, they are a better unit. They are very marginally better archers. 17% more hits is only 8.5% more wounds on even T3. Add any kind of decent armor save and the advantage is basically gone. Just doesn't fit elves.

The huntsmen also benefit from some rules you didn't mention.

I don't like "over cost" arguments on what is supposed to be an elite army. Rather then drop the points lets try to find a way to make the ability and the cost match.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#45 Post by Farseer »

Dartanelo wrote:
Farseer wrote:whitelion catapult that launches lions at its foes
:lol:
Fine you twisted my arm:

Whitelion catapult

After observing how ineffective their chariots were in the wooded and mountainous terrain of their homeland, the whitelions of chrace put their heads together to discuss how they could better hunt the monsters of the mountains as well as better protect their king. Their solution, the whitelion catapult!
This monstrous construction has a special harness attached to its throwing arm to hold a fully grown whitelion that was originally meant to pull a chariot but is instead destined to be flung at high velocity into the enemy.


Fires like a stone thrower but after the hit the player rolls a dice and on a 4+ a white lion spawns in combat with the unit (or on its own if it missed). The white lions have hatred and frenzy and will charge the closest unit, friend or foe.

Misfire chart:
1-5: nothing happens, elven craftsmanship doesn’t allow for such petty problems
6: WHO LEFT THE CAGES OPEN???? The catapult is destroyed and 6 white lions are placed in its stead. These whitelions also have frenzy and hatred and will charge the closest unit friend or foe. Additionally, all whitelions chariots on the table have the stupid special rule for the rest of the game.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#46 Post by wisetiger7 »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:Like I said, they are a better unit. They are very marginally better archers. 17% more hits is only 8.5% more wounds on even T3. Add any kind of decent armor save and the advantage is basically gone. Just doesn't fit elves.

The huntsmen also benefit from some rules you didn't mention.

I don't like "over cost" arguments on what is supposed to be an elite army. Rather then drop the points lets try to find a way to make the ability and the cost match.
First, I'm not the one who originally compared our archers to huntsmen. Sure they are scouts and skirmishers. But with your previous argument ("Yes they have better stats. Most of those do NOTHING to make them better archers then the huntsmen though. If HE are supposed to great archers (and it is a typical elf skill) they need something to make them better ARCHERS then the huntsmen, not just a better unit."), THOSE have nothing to do with making huntsmen better "archers" either...?

I don't get what more you expect from our elves. They are our most basic unit (fluff-wise; everyone starts as archers, then move on to become spearmen... etc). Our most basic unit is better than an Empire Specials unit. What more do you want?

If it is the points cost, then yes, the "over cost" argument is absolutely valid! It is something that has been wished for over countless discussions through countless threads. If we give our archers anything more than they already have, then GW is going to have to restructure all elven archers, both dark and wood as well. Every army has different components that rate at different point levels. It's the overall balance of each army, not its individual components, that matters. Sure wood elves have better archers. No move and shoot penalty. Strider. S4 at close range. But everything else in their army sucks (overgeneralization, I know). And sure, darkies have multishot and ap. But they take the penalty for multishot and their range is only 24".

If you are comparing our archers to dark or wood elves, then yes, we are getting stiffed. But if our archers are the typical elven archer, then to that I would say that wood elven archers and dark xbows are atypical. They are slightly better, yet cheaper. Which is WHY ours should be slightly cheaper to match. If you are comparing ours to huntsmen - well then you're complaining just to complain. Ours are better, and they cost more. As well, they should.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#47 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Actually, there are ways they could make our archers worth the cost without having to have a points drop. People are looking at these. Just because you add something to HE archers does not mean you have to rework the DE and WE ones, unless you give them the exact same thing. Which would be silly.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#48 Post by wisetiger7 »

Yah, I mean if they gave them something small... But it would be a tad OP to give them a stat boost somewhere... BS is totally out of the question. WS wouldn't make sense unless they did it army-wide. This would push the 'elite army' concept further. But in general I don't think any stat changes are needed. March and fire would be nice. That's pretty small. Or we're able to volley even if we move. I just don't want to lose ASF. It defines our army. I think it would be a shame to change that.
thelordcal wrote:Or he uses his big a$$ banner pole as a great weapon...
wisetiger7 wrote:That's what she said.
Asurion Whitestar wrote:I would normally delete such an off topic post, but this is just too good. Classic..!! :)
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#49 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

WS also wouldn't help make the better archers. I could see march and fire. Maybe AP at close range (not even close to as good as S4). Or they could just stop saying HE are good at archery.

Someone asked for "fire and flee" back for reavers. To be honest I'd rather that be a general rule for any fast cav.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#50 Post by wisetiger7 »

What about no -1 penalty for stand and shoot and/or can always stand and shoot, regardless of charge distance? Fluff-wise, that would show that archers are well-trained enough that they wouldn't flinch when charged, or had quick enough reflexes to get off a shot before battle is joined.
thelordcal wrote:Or he uses his big a$$ banner pole as a great weapon...
wisetiger7 wrote:That's what she said.
Asurion Whitestar wrote:I would normally delete such an off topic post, but this is just too good. Classic..!! :)
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#51 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

wisetiger7 wrote:What about no -1 penalty for stand and shoot and/or can always stand and shoot, regardless of charge distance? Fluff-wise, that would show that archers are well-trained enough that they wouldn't flinch when charged, or had quick enough reflexes to get off a shot before battle is joined.
Another that I would be quite happy with, and fits very well.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#52 Post by Sulla1111 »

What would I like to see in HE?

1) A way to make combat characters survivable and interesting
2) An end to armywide ASF (and armywide hatred in DE; neither needs it now)
3) A reason to bring fast cav now that sacrificial units are better than feigned flight
4) Artillery; if GW are happy with the power of cannons right now, I would hope RBTs would get something approaching their power per points.
5) Armywide rule; armour modifier derived from weapon skill, not strength. This one is an idea from the some DE players back before they got hatred in the 7th ed book and I think it would make a great racial rule for all elves; that they could finesse their way past most armour. it would help a lot with point 1 as well, since you could spend more on protection and still get the odd wound through saves even with a hand weapon and shield.
6) Core silver helms; The primary difference between HE and other elven armies. Care would have to be taken so we don't just see all core points tied up in a single silver helm deathstar, but if armywide ASF goes away, spears etc should go down in price a bit and that may help there.
7) Dragon and griffon riders as rare single profile models. Slightly lesser versions of riders and mount compared to the hero versions but a way to see these creatures on the board more often without sacrificing your magical defence by dropping your lvl4.

8) No new units. Sorry GW; I know you're a miniature company, but I'd rather you focussed on getting the current stuff right before bringing out blind warrior monks riding on phoenix or some other nonsense. The army is not like chaos with armoured dudes, armoured dudes on horse, armoured dudes on chariot and finecast armoured dudes. The units and models are all distinct visually and fluffwise and don't need anything else IMO. If you want to resculpt a few older units, that's cool though.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#53 Post by Tarval »

A point reduction seems to be an option to put a lot our units in line with other codexs. Personally the only other thing I see is maybe a Griffin unit. Seems like an option to me. I love everything our codex has to offer.. I really do not see a need for a change. Our magic. Unit. Troops etc are all solid... I love our core and can not count he many times I have watched units charge my 19 archers to find death.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#54 Post by Natwest »

@sulla111 - why an end to armywide ASF? I need it, and it defines our army as elite. then there is nothing to seperate us from DE + WE except that they have better archers :wink:
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#55 Post by Sulla1111 »

Natwest wrote:@sulla111 - why an end to armywide ASF? I need it, and it defines our army as elite. then there is nothing to seperate us from DE + WE except that they have better archers :wink:
Because it's silly that a bog standard archer or bolt thrower crewman is as fast as a Keeper of Secrets or an assassin... It's a perfect rule for swordmasters but utterly unneccessary for the rest of the army. Removing it would allow the designers to really go to town on the elites and make them unique and better at their roles.

BTW, it's not just the HE who need revision IMO. DE don't need hatred either now that they strike at initiative order. I'd remove that from them too and instead look at adding a simple rule or two to units to really emphasise what their roles are on the battlefield; e.g. Elven spearmen are your anvil. I would give them heavy armour. LSG are hardy marines. They could go to s4 and become special choices or become stubborn for the first turn of any combat to represent their dogged resilience.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#56 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

I believe the main problem everyone sees with losing ASF is that we lose our elite standard completely.
If we kept re-rolls but struck in I order, I believe that would solve the issue, perhaps some extra stuff like the old White Lion's woodsman's axe rules, lions rampant/leaping/claw when charged the enemy are at -1 to hit, when charging the enemy loses 1A (although I think something like striking first would be better), and in every other round the lions gain killing blow (the oldeschool version was D3 Wounds). Otherwise White Lions would become less than effective against other elite troops, or they could make them 12pts or less to accommodate their crappyness.. Haha :3

Phoenix Guard really should be rare again, and Unfreakinbreakable, and fearless (As in losing the fear, as it makes little sense). Keep their ward or lessen it.

I agree that spears should have heavy armour, as should Seaguard as they are the best armed and armoured troops of the military, excluding kingdom specific elites.

Archers should be able to take shields again.

Swordmasters yes should keep ASF and regain either deflect shot (for a -1 to hit vs shooting) or KB (even though they never really had it, just the mention in the 6th ed Rulebook but not in the 6th ed Army Book,..????).

With the rumours of I@C returning, I hope it more like honours again. Anything for our characters to have actual character would be nice.

GW will more than likely be adding a unit or two, one of which will almost definately be Monstrous Cav of some sort, and I pray to the Elven Gods that its not Dragonish, and either Griffony or something new entirely (I'd rather have a new unit that makes no sense than dragon riders, unless they're actual dragon riders and not riding wingless abominations of fluff).

Dragon Princes should gain a Champion like status like Bret Grail Knights, so they can accept challenges.

The other new unit will gods willing be from Cothique, hopefully they'll bring back Maidenguard aswell.

Shadow Warriors really need something to push them above archers with scout, skirmish and WS5. Shields again, extra hand weapons or just plsin 2As. Maybe Armour piercing attacks.??

Tiranoc's perhaps gain Fast Cav, for the vanguard and flee turn shoot response.

Similarly, Lion Chariots should perhaps be stubborn..?

Repeater Bolt Throwers really need something..? I believe in Swordmaster extra +1 S to all shots and/or an upgradable crewman to a BS5 champ. It's either that or make them heaps cheaper.

Great Eagles are almost perfect as is, but it would hurt to be able to give them the Scaly Skin save, ASF or better Strength etc from the SOM book. They really should cause fear on the charge though.

Ellyrian Reavers probably need Ithilmar Barding to go with their new IOB models, and fire and flee as a charge reaction. Lololollls

While Silver's need the Ithilmar Barding too, they need better stats to put them above the levy, seeing as there nobles and all ... :roll:

Dragon Mages need armour and or Weapon choices, they are redundant ATM so giving them that increases their survivability tenfold and I'm certain we would see more of them on the field.

Then just minor monster cost decreases and we're set.


I think I covered everything .., did I miss something..?
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#57 Post by cptcosmic »

I would like to get rid of the boring ASF rule but this would require a complete overhaul and a crapload of special rules to make HE very "elite" like they are supposed to be. I guess ASF will stay (or they will just get rerolls without ASF like eternal hatred).

I would keep it as simple as possible and take the current book as base (cause it is not that bad at all)
I want:
-no major lore change please
-please no buff pope mobile. if you want some unit buffs then give this role to princes and nobles
-no monstrous beast mounts like lion cavalry, lesser dragons and griffons. we dont need a new HE book called "Lions and Friends".
-ofcourse high magic brought up to date :)
-something for the mages to underline their magical prowess that distinguishes them from e.g. empire wizards beside being alot more expensive
-the same applies for melee character choices, either give them something usefull that other units cannot provide (because the specials have plenty of melee prowess already) or just make them cheaper
-fix the griffon ride cause it is quite useless. make it a monstrous beast like the eagle but weaker stat line thus he cannot be sniped away under the ass of the prince
-slight point reduction for dragon mounts
-reavers go to core with light armor and shield. option to buy barding to make them sort of medium cavalry=> I think they belong to core, there is nothing special about them, even lore wise. they are just regular light armored elves on horses
-silverhelms option for magic banner, ithilmar barding, WS5, maybe LD9 => they are the nobles and should as such should be better than just regular citizens
-spears get heavy armor
-archers get light armor for free and cost 10 points
-dragon princes go to rare, get S4 and a point increase. make them all champions so they can challenge and accept challenges.
-phoenix guard is unbreakable and immune to fear and goes to rare.
-something like a bodyguard rule for white lions
-sun dragon as rare choice
-eagles get 5+ scaly skin
-tiranoc chariots get light cavarly rule
-lion chariots get a bit more durability
-shadow warriors get improved statline => currently they are just archers with scout rule but for huge amount of points
-boltthrowers have 3 crew members and cost alot less. add options for some upgrades like "alchemical fire" for flaming attacks, unit champion with BS5 and similar.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#58 Post by Farseer »

I like the idea of archers getting shields and light armour standard. Lots of people use them as an aggresive combat block and it would make them different to the other elf archers. Of cause you would have to rethink seaguard which i doubt they will do.

@cptcosmic i like most of your ideas but making dragon princes strenth 4 is a very unimaginative solution and there is no reasion for it in the lore. They are already pretty solid and i think moving them to rare and making dragon armour 4+ giving them 1+ AS would be enough. If you wanted to make them more elite then they could keep ASF along with swordmasters
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#59 Post by cptcosmic »

Farseer wrote:@cptcosmic i like most of your ideas but making dragon princes strenth 4 is a very unimaginative solution and there is no reasion for it in the lore. They are already pretty solid and i think moving them to rare and making dragon armour 4+ giving them 1+ AS would be enough. If you wanted to make them more elite then they could keep ASF along with swordmasters
my reasoning is simple:
they were dragon riders before but it became really hard to wake up a dragon and get ready to fight thus they are on horse now. no sane dragon would let a welp ride on him, only the best of the best are allowed to do it, in short dragonprinces are basically what a prince is, aka the badasses of ulthuan but without the statline so making them similar to Blood Knights (better stats, ability to call challenges) would fit them lore wise. I dont see anything wrong with them being S4, maybe having a better save too and placed in rare section.
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Re: If Adam Troke really is looking for ideas....

#60 Post by HERO »

Because it's silly that a bog standard archer or bolt thrower crewman is as fast as a Keeper of Secrets or an assassin...
KoS and Assassins are I10 ASF. Your reasoning is incorrect!
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