High Elves MSU - Observations

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ElderlyElf
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#61 Post by ElderlyElf »

I've been running basically an MSU mobile list. No unit larger than 10 including characters. Although the units are expensive and the model count is fairly low, I am still getting 13 drops. Nothing on foot, only wings, wheels, and hooves. As I get more games in with it in preparation for an upcoming local tournament, I will post here as to my results if there is interest.
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#62 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi ElderlyElf,

I have seen your mobile list and I would love to learn about your experiences! If more people can add to the pool with their own way of doing MSU or similar then it is even better! I would be very happy to add examples from the games of other players to MSU tactica article :)

Looking forward to reading about your exploits!

Cheers!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#63 Post by Nevar »

Hey Swordmaster!

I just want to give a shout out as I used tactics learned in your thread here to pull two victories out of my High Elves on both of my first games. I even employed your 7x2 Swordmaster formations and they cut through the enemy like lawn mowers. I find that MSU allows me to counter deploy even when deploying first since you have so many more units to deploy and you can drag out dropping your key units until your enemy has placed what you are worried about first.

My only question becomes... why ever field anything besides Swordmasters? I mean, they are the same price as White Lions, yet White Lions are lower WS and less attacks. I suppose S6 is nice, and I understand the resistance to arrows helps... but it just seems like the price you can spend on more Swordmasters will pay off double once you make melee. Am I missing something?

Even the Phoenix Guard are less awesome stat wise than the Swordmasters. The only reason I like Phoenix Guard is because of the ASF re-rolls and free 4+ ward.

It just seems like when it comes to sheer hitting power, the Swordmasters are without peers.
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#64 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Nevar!

Congratulations! I am very happy to find out you won your first games and I wish you that the streak of successes will be unbroken! I am also very glad my observations were useful for your games. Thank you!

I like Swordmasters a lot (surprise, surprise!) but in my opinion MSU is not only about small units but also about versatility and combined arms approach. Swordmasters are good but specialised. They might not perform roles other units can. Even if they seem to be similar or at least they fall into the category of elite infantry.

I think a direct comparison between HE elite infantry in general and Swordmasters and Lions in particular is based on assumption they are there to perform the same role. I believe that it is not the case. Their roles overlap but are not the same. Also, it may differ depending on the rest of the army. The fact that both units are good at chopping the enemy to pieces does not mean they are good at doing so against the same type of foe or that you use them in an identical way.

Lions are stubborn and benefit more from Martial Prowess so that you can field them in Lion Cubes to have 9 attacks at narrow frontage. Since they are stubborn you can use them like that and don't be concern with losing steadfast. They can also manoeuvre better and add their attacks even at a smaller frontage.

I prefer to field Swordmasters 5-6 wide so that they are steadfast for a round against powerful individuals (the reason why I take Bladelords) but also they have more attacks to use.

Basically, the key here is co-operation of two units rather than competition. The best results I had were when both units supported each other. You can use Lions as a bait that cannot be ignored and then flank charge with Swordmasters. Or use Lions to guard flanks of the Swordmasters so that they can take on some enemy one on one (very good against some enemy elites).

In general, I would love to have more Swordmasters of course but the army benefits more from the variety of troops as I can assign different roles against particular opponent and have more options to choose from.

Cheers!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#65 Post by Nevar »

Well I have only 15 White Lions in my collection as of now and over 40 Swordmasters, so I obviously can field more small units of Swords than Lions. The reason I was trying to get more details on the difference between Lions and Swords was because I am buying either Lions or Phoenix Guard soon and I can't really see a reason to get more Lions with the swath of Swordmasters I already have.

I understand your point that they are not just both 'elite infantry' cut and dry... but at the same time I directly compare them across and they don't seem to differ enough to not sort of white wash into the same role. Both are essentially shock troops that deal heavy handed blows to a target. Swordmasters strike at S5, but their front row strikes twice as much as a White Lion. White Lions instead strike half as much, but only at S6, which is only +1. Add in Stubborn and sure, they are now steadfast which is awesome, but it seems like the Swordmasters are more likely to win combat and not need to roll leadership anyways. I suppose what I am saying is that at MSU scale, the benefits for the White Lions don't seem to be worth the trade off. In a Horde formation I could see the White Lions being a ruinous force attacking four ranks deep at S6 against all comers.

Obviously however I have only played TWO whole games, and only against one enemy army (Tomb Kings) so you obviously have much more tested wisdom in the field than I do. Your White Lion cubes interest me though. I assume since you said 9 attacks we are talking about a 3x3 cube of Lions? I know the ranks don't count for much, but we are stubborn so who cares right? My only question is, wouldn't the enemy still be throwing the same number of attacks back at us, regardless of our 3 man front? I mean, x5 guys will still get all of their attacks against x3 guys... so you are still looking at x10 minimum incoming enemy attacks once you factor in supporting attacks no? How exactly does a 3x3 cube work in our favor? Even if you 'maximize' your own frontage to the edge of the enemy formation you will only cancel out x2 attacks... depending on who is striking... nevermind I see where it becomes advantageous, especially against hordes and bigger blocks where the stubborn rule can keep us in regardless of all their rank bonuses and such.

I actually fielded my Swordmasters 7x2 based on musings you had earlier with one of your lists, and I found I liked the formation. With all the shooting I received the extra couple of bodies helped keep the maximum of attacks on the front swinging which really helps dispatch the enemy troopies.

In your opinion would sticking in small units of Phoenix Guard work out? I look at them for their S4 re-rolls from ASF... where our other two elites unfortunately suffer from the ASL sadness.
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#66 Post by Prince of Spires »

PG work well in small unit as well. I've run 15 PG with razor banner and they are great. They chop through anything without a big armour save and they just don't die. The ld9 and fear are just a bonus.

as for WL vs SM, there are page long discussions about which are best. It usually depends on what you are fighting. You're forgetting 2 things in your comparison, lion cloaks an the fact that there is very little difference between ws5 and 6.

lion cloaks mean that WL are more durable vs shooting which is nice if you want to get into combat.

And the ws difference only really matters when they fight other ws 5 troops.

Last thing to keep in mind is that there is actually a limit to how many duplicates of the same special unit you can bring. So that limits SM at 3 units anyway.

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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#67 Post by Nevar »

Oh I understand, however the difference between ws6 and ws5 matters mainly when you are fighting the more elite enemies... which is when it seems like the s6 White Lions would need it more. To me it seems like the Swordmasters are better at slashing through weaker troops, and the White Lions are meant to knock tougher targets down a peg. Which seems to me like their weapon skills are swapped for what they are best at.

I understand the benefits of both now, and I appreciate the input from you all. The argument hasn't really been between White Lions and Swordmasters, as I have x3 units of Swords already, the debate was between more Phoenix Guard or White Lions. I can field one 15 man block of Lions or even a Lion Cube as well as one group of Phoenix Guard right now. I want to expand either into Phoenix Guard or White Lions and was sitting here debating. I can expand a little into both, however it had seemed to me at the time that the White Lions wouldn't do anything my Swordmasters were not already doing. I think I will go ahead and get some more White Lions enough for two cubes, and go all in on the Phoenix Guard as I want to eventually run a big block of them sometime in the future.

Appreciate the input and the info in this thread.
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#68 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for the feedback and continuation of the discussion!

Let me start first that I don't try to debate one unit vs another. As Rod pointed out it was done so many times before. And I think that it is not the case here.

It is more about how all the units can contribute to the overall performance so that the end result is something more than just a sum of the elements. At the moment the difference between 3 elite infantry is better defined. And their roles might overlap but as I tried to highlight, they are not the same.

1. Swordmasters

They are really good in combat, also against another elites. The amount of attacks is great and i5 is very good too. However, they are obviously fragile so very often I encountered the situation where I can commit them to combat, win it but be left with only handful of survivors. That is the reason I wanted them in slightly bigger numbers. I ended up with 12 at the moment and a champion for the challenges.

They are excellent as assault teams for buildings or as garrisons for such.

2. White Lions

They are the hardest hitting unit we have. They have fewer attacks and Lion Pelts are nice bonus. it can make a small difference but I would not count on it to keep your unit alive that much longer. Their value comes in the stubborness and ability to form them in cubes.

It is true that you should aim to win combats. However, Lions are perfect bait. They can sustain more casualties and even if one stays alive they can hold the line. Swordmasters might not be in the position to do so due to lack of steadfast. At the same time you can easily charge together with lions and squeeze even more units into the same combat. It is not necessarily one-on-one fight. That is why that narrow formation and 3 ranks matters. Not to mention situations when they are able to direct all these attacks at the character. They also need 40mm space to allocate all attacks against the enemy. Very good against monsters for example.

You might assign them a tough but important duty of holding the flank. They will pose a threat Swordmasters might not. Simply by staying there and threatening to charge the enemy and/or holding no matter what.

But as I have said before, I like them in teams. Lions to hold the enemy and Swordmasters to attack the flank.

3. Phoenix Guard

I haven't used them so I will do some theory hammer. They are very good of course, and 15 with Razon Banner looks like a good idea. Might be a little expensive though. But throw in a character with high magic or even a bound spell and you have 3++ unit!

Their ASF and S4 with possible S5/T4 due to wyssans (if you run beast mage or loremaster) can be even better. Might not take tough units but definitely will take more damage and that might be incredibly helpful.

I see the infantry corp with 2 x 14 Swordmasters, 2 x 10 Lion cubes and 1 x 15 Phoenix Guard. They can be very good indeed. I think it is worthy a try. And would also make your army a little bit more unique among MSU-like forces. :)

Last but not least, I will simply repeat. Do not compare units as one vs another but think rather how they can all contribute to the overall success. Try to find their unique roles but also use the redundancy they provide due to the fact these roles overlap.

Cheer!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#69 Post by Prince of Spires »

On the PG + razor banner, they have been the first unit in my list the past few games. And it's a pretty kick-ass unit. It perhaps is on the expensive side for a true MSU list. But it's my own twist to it. Even if I lose pretty badly, this is a unit that sticks around, even when the other units around them have disappeared. And while they are only s4, don't underestimate what 15 ASF attacks (that reroll against almost anything not ASF) with a -2 to armour can do.

I find that (for me at least) they add in a lot of durability to what is a fragile kind of list. As you point out, small units can end up depleted after a round (or a few) of combat. PG don't have this as much. They form a relative anvil in an army full of hammers for me.

I actually like the idea of the set-up you gave with 2X SM, 2X WL and the PG. That is a lot of boot on the ground (for HE). Though I would personally probably take out a lioncube and add in a chariot, just because I like them (and I currently don't actually have 20 WL...).

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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#70 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Rod,

I do not underestimate offensive abilities of such a unit! I am sure it can be done very well and it is yet another tempting idea. In fact, I wonder if taking just 3 units, each of a kind, is not worthy considering too. Just to be able to add more variety to the list and keep space for more units in general.

Hm, got me thinking! :)
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#71 Post by Eltherion »

Just on unit sizes I am finding the WL's and archers in units of 15 to be pretty good. They can absorb damage and still be effective at what they do. The WL's in particular are pretty fragile in combat and need a few extra bodies to stick around for longer.
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7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#72 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

But then are they not too big? I mean, technically, everything should be cheap enough so that you can consider sacrificing the unit for the greater good. 15 with upgrades is getting expensive so one might be too reluctant to do so. What do you think?
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#73 Post by Eltherion »

I tend to use the WL's as an anvil so they pin the unit in place for a turn or 2, then flank charges that aren't already in can charge.

They are getting a bit more expensive but I found 10 tended to die quite easily and weren't throwing out enough attacks.

Archers tend to be nice on 5 wide frontage 15 shots and more resilient in close combat as well.

I do run the cav, SM's and sisters in the smaller units however.
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New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations - updated 13.10

#74 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

I intend to do some analysis of the army list in the Army List topic but I hope I will be able to update this one with some observations when I form them in a more general form.

Cheers!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#75 Post by Eltherion »

I have turned to the Darkside, MSU + Double Dragon.
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#76 Post by Struthy »

Eltherion wrote:I have turned to the Darkside, MSU + Double Dragon.
Welcome aboard son! :D
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#77 Post by Eltherion »

Swedish Comp 16 was to hard to reject. :)
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#78 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Oh, nooooo! :lol:

Well, as long as there are multiple small dragons (baby dragons? :-P) then it should be ok :)
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#79 Post by Eltherion »

I was thinking of modelling my Dragon Princes up on baby dragons.

Hmm themed list Dragons and 3x Dragon Princes, giving me ideas.

Nobles riding baby Dragons/Eagles
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#80 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

What is your plan for conversions? And what is the shape of the list? Let's see how much did it deteriorate from "pure" MSU :)
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#81 Post by Eltherion »

Here is a sneak peak up coming Tourney in 4 weeks.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 18#p856618
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#82 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

In recent months you could notice that there are a few more MSU enthusiast on Ulthuan. It is great to see more people giving that style a try. New HE army book provides such a huge variety of options that it is impossible to include them all in a single list. You could see that different players pick slightly different regiments and that in turn creates a very nice pool of topics dedicated to MSU style but with very interesting variations.

I was thinking about the way to combine their experience into something more general and I hope to use this topic for such a purpose. While I still want to update the article you can find below with new observations, I am sure it will be even more interesting if other forum members contribute to it. With such aid I will try to update the topic with new sections.

While experience, especially documented with battle reports (for better reference and real games examples) is an asset I also would like to encourage any forum member to participate in the discussion. I also hope that the content that is going to be presented in that topic will be a good starting point for anybody interested in MSU concept in general and with the use of HE in particular.

Let me start with a few links to army lists topics or battle reports by some of the Ulthuan forum members. I am always happy to add to that list so if you want me to add your personal army blog or a battle report, just let me know! Also, if I missed your topic I apologise in advance. Be assured it is purely coincidental.

Please, check the first post for updates!

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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#83 Post by Bashtrigger »

And another one just joined you: I'm thinking about trying a list with a small (14) group of PG with razor banner and a lvl2 High, a slightly larger group of 20 WL with BotWD, an achmage with Shadow, a BSB and the rest of the list MSU with 3x 10 SM 2x 15 Archers 3x 5 Ell Re an eagle and 2x RBT

I realise it's not truly MSU but it's MSU'ish, adapted to fit my gaming environment (horde heavy, so needed some units with a bit more body)

On paper it looks like it can pack a punch, now just need some playtesting to see how it works IRL :D

Will have to substitute some for my SM, since I only got 10 atm, but if it works I'll definately buy some more
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#84 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Bashtrigger!

There is no one way to rule them all so it is all about the army you enjoy playing with! If you want to try some of the options MSU provides then feel free to discuss it here. And let me know if you start a topic for your army/battles etc. so I can update the list of MSU players!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#85 Post by Bashtrigger »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Hi Bashtrigger!

There is no one way to rule them all so it is all about the army you enjoy playing with! If you want to try some of the options MSU provides then feel free to discuss it here. And let me know if you start a topic for your army/battles etc. so I can update the list of MSU players!
Cheers!
I'm new to Ulthuan, and new to MSU, but I think it's a playstyle that would work against my meta, because my friends like to pack big deathstar'ish blocks. Normally I always struggle a lot against those, but maybe with the huge tactical advantage of MSU, I'll be able to tackle them more effectively

Since one of my friends moved away and another got himself a new girlfriend (truly in the lovelydovelyfase now) I've only got one friend left who has time and feels like playing warhammer regularely :?

Could be he'll be in for a match next weekend, if so I'll try the list and see how it goes, I might need some help on how to decently post a battlereport though, I've never done that before
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#86 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

You may try Universal Battle if you lack opponents to play with. It is not a substitute for real games but it is better to play than not to play! The advantage is that you have a chance to play against people from all over the world!

As to battle reports I will do my best to help too!

Cheers!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#87 Post by Ferny »

Hi Swordmaster,

I don't quite know how I haven't really hit upon this thread properly before, but it's a goldmine. Well, I suspect I've seen it, managed to forget, and rediscovered it like a bonus Christmas present. Excellently written and loads of useful stuff.

I've got a really prosaic question for you, given that I was planning to take MSU to my next tourney: how do you get it all done in the time limit? If you have 2hrs/game that's 10mins/turn; 12mins if it's 2.5hrs. That's not a lot to move (in my case) 18-19 units, considering charges, redirects and over-runs, plus LoS blocking, spell ranges etc. That's 30seconds/unit on average, which it easily takes with measuring, moving, and getting angles just so, especially in co-ordination with all your other units, and that wouldn't leave you any time to then do magic, shooting or combat! To be honest, it's something I struggle with when I took my usual WL/PG/Pheonix list and I think the best I managed in my previous tourney was 5 rounds, but with MSU it's ridiculous (especially if you're new to it). I played a game vs MSU skinks tonight and we finished after 2 turns! He's much quicker than me (anyway) and I think it's easier when all 12 units of skinks are the exact same 50pt set up who's basic role is advance and shoot, double flee or hold and slow them down.

I'm now thinking I need to modify my list *if only to get away from the time it takes to co-ordinate my movement phase*. Which seems a crap reason for list development, but will be important in a non-'friendly' environment!
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#88 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

I am glad you enjoyed the reading! I was afraid it is simply too long :) Also great to hear you have found it useful. If you have any suggestions for possible additions (yes, I still plan to expand it! :)), don't hesitate to leave a comment. I think that together with other players who use MSU in one form or another we can build up even better library of examples on how to make particular elements work the best.

It is a very good question, thanks for asking it. Usually, I have 2.5h to play the game unless it is friendly one and we have more time and don't worry about delays.

The simple truth is that sometimes you don't finish your games. However, I have observed that many times additional 30min would have been easily sufficient to do so. I guess one thing is it takes practice. I am sure I am way faster than I used to be at the beginning. I have also had a look at the time it takes to do different things I have noticed the most time consuming is ... the deployment. Including all it takes to discuss terrain, exchange army lists and agree on the scenario.

The things that help me to speed up the game are as follows:

1. Have a few default deployments in your mind. They don't have to be detailed but know more or less where units need to be. It will save time and prevent making mistakes such as leaving too little space for particular regiment. Sometimes it actually does help to set up miniatures on the table before the battle to see how much space they cover.

2. Have a rough plan how to approach certain enemies. Be it type of the army (defensive, combat orientated etc.) or army list. For example, if I know I want to rush the foe as I need to cover the space quickly and engage head on I will deploy on the edge. If I know I need more time I will deploy at the end of deployment zone. Then you only need to readjust to accommodate the impact of the terrain.

3. Know your enemy. I am still not good enough in remembering the books, the spells, the items. But if I know I am going to fight particular enemy I read their book quickly and then I need only a little refreshment instead of a whole lecture before the game.

4. Try to think before hand what units you want to team up together. Then you will treat them as battle groups and that helps moving them and deploying them as you treat them more like a big units. You will remember how much space they need and how to angle them to support each other. Basically, your army is more than just a selection of units so you need to move it as one.

5. Play games :) The more you play the quicker you get. And always, even during friendly games, aim to move efficiently. It does not mean rushing. Simply try to think first then move. As if you move and keep correcting then it takes longer.

Hope that helps!

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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Eltherion
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#89 Post by Eltherion »

Okies here is my take on MSU High Elves.

I like to run Archers, Silverhelms and Reavers in Core.

My army in general is a balanced force strong in Magic Lvl4 Book of Hoeth. Also it has a decent amount of shooting to weaken key enemy units.

There are also some strong combat units which tend to get used late game, and in combo charges.

1. So firstly I look at the opponents army and look at the biggest threats. If they are running a Deathstar or Cavalry bus I will chaff them up while softening them up with Final Transmutation or a similar big spell. Neutralizing biggest enemy threats

2. I use smaller spells and shooting to clear other chaff units or key units such as Hexwraiths which my Sisters Deal with or I buff the archers to deal with them and other Ethereals. Target Priorities

3. The reavers will go Warmachine hunting if they get the opportunity. Eliminating long range threats

4. Opponents with lots of Chaff I will Magic Shoot and charge with silver helms and Reavers. This allows my army to dictate the movement phase. The long threat range of the HE cavalry helps stop flyers getting behind the lines. Winning the Movement Phase

5. Finally go in for the kill when you have the opportunity to multi charge a key unit that you are sure you can defeat. Going for the big win
2008-2013 Wins:Draws:Losses
7th Ed High Elves 18 : 9 : 4 Bargle Con I, Best General, 3rd Overall
New High Elf Book 16 : 1 : 5 Bargle Con II, 2nd Overall, Conviction 2nd Overall & Best Sportsman

MSU List: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48650
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: High Elves MSU - Observations

#90 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Eltherion,

Thanks a lot for your feedback. Very good points!

I have a question, however, as sometimes I have a problem with that myself. I need to focus on removing enemy support units that can interfere with my movement phase as well as long range threats that may reduce the number of warriors in my small units and render them useless. it happens that it takes longer than I wanted and then there is no time at all to mount an all out assault on the big enemy unit (or one of the more juicy targets). How do you do it?

Cheers!
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