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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Sulla1111 wrote:
Don't be afraid to sacrifice an eagle either, to buy time for the rest of your army. For example, if a big horde is coming toward your army and you want a turn to blast them, put an eagle one inch away but at almost a 45 degree angle (make sure it will be front charged, not flank, though). If he charges, you will hold meaning he goes precisely 1" then turns to expose his flank. Now your opponent is faced with an unenviable decision. When he wins, he can pursue or overrun (unless somehow your bird survives and holds), but this will bring the flank of his unit closer to your units for the inevitable countercharge, or he may be able to reform (assuming he's not frenzied) for a net move of 1". So you have either ganined a probable flank charge or slowed your opponent to 1" of movement with his best unit... and if you have another eagle, you can do it again next turn.

This is essentially Trick #4, 'The Speed Bump'.

Brian Mage wrote:
I think you have single handedly just increased the sale of great eagles 2000%!!!

Not exactly what I was going for, but now that you mention it, everyone seems to want more! You're welcome GW!

Xarhain wrote:
Great, cheers! Only thing is can you change the "require" in the second line to "required". Spelling mistake that has now seemingly become immortalised! :lol:

Done. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Xarhain wrote:
Brian Mage wrote:
I think you have single handedly just increased the sale of great eagles 2000%!!!


i almost bought some more but decided to wait until october ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Might be a bit specialised, and dependant on how landing in a forest would play out, but:
They are great for bringing out goblin fanatics. Flying over a terrain piece will prevent the fanatics from killing your eagle
(might loose 1/6 wound/unit with fanatic from landing in a forest, unless there is an erreta about it. Would be great for a fantatic tactica if not.
Place units with fanatics near woods, and see fliers forced to land in forests because they are within 8" of a goblin unit),
and can put your eagle in a great position to rear charge the enemy as in #7.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:34 pm 
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The eagle wouldn't land in the wood, it merely halts its move so that the fanatic can resolve it's move, then the eagle can complete it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:08 am 
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geoguswrek wrote:
The eagle wouldn't land in the wood, it merely halts its move so that the fanatic can resolve it's move, then the eagle can complete it.



I'm not so sure
O&G Army book page 25 states:
Quote:
Fanatics are always released when the concealing unit comes to within 8" of the enemy or Vice Versa. The moving unit stops immediately (fliers land).
Once the fanatic movement has been resolved, the unit can continue moving if the controlling player wishes, although chargers must complete their charge
unless panicked.


This seems to indicate the fliers actually land.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:38 am 
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ok so what happens if the unit is in a place it can't stop? ie a flier that is ontop of a building?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:49 am 
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good question, but from how I read the rules, you have to land once you get within 8".
Couldn't find anything about it in the O&G FAQ, but why would they put the (fliers land)
in there if they didn't intend for fliers to have to land (and thus be possible targets for the fanatics)?
The fanatics doesn't have to be directed at the unit that triggered them.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:14 am 
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Collinisimo wrote:
This is essentially Trick #4, 'The Speed Bump'.


:oops: Don't know how I missed that. Now works with skirmishers too (good for my harpies).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:01 am 
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I' m sorry but I do not understand trick number five at all. Couldn't the P.G overrun into the smaller unit anyways, win combat and reform without the eagles help?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:10 am 
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normally you can only do 1 combat per turn. so the PG would win the first, then overrun into the second and they would be stuck, thus receiving a flank charge. When the eagle charges you declare that you will do the PG combat first. When they win they overrun into the unit the eagle is engaged with. Then you have the eagle combat, who happens to have just been joined by some friends. When the PG win the second combat they can no longer overrun (only once per turn) but the can reform so they are no longer going to be flanked.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:18 am 
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After reading this tactica I decided to put my two Eagles to some testing in my next game. Having just finished a 1999pt (tournament practice) game against Dwarves, I must say they are excellent!

After seeing my opponents deployment of a Grudge Thrower and knowing that I wouldn't fancy my chances against it even with both the Eagles I had, I decided to try out Trick no. 7 - Static Combat Res.

This nifty little trick I managed to pull off three times (in two turns mind) and it did wonders for me! The first time my Eagle charged the back of a Longbeards unit with Battlestandard in it and a Lion Chariot to the flank. They ended up drawing combat (!) and losing only to a lack of musician (they held) [ the second time it charged in with a unit of AP Phoenix Guard and ran them down]. The third time I managed to flank charge a unit of Ironbreakers with a Thane (general) and a unit of White Lions with Battlestandard to the front. That Eagle was probably the most crucial unit in the game at the time because not only did it manage to survive (AND fight off a unit of Quarralers that rear-charged it!), it also swung combat res in my favour allowing me to run down the unit and win the game (Breaking point met).

All in all, thank you for opening my eyes to the possible tactical applications of Eagles. I have learned a new trick to use in my games and i'm greatful for it. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:41 am 
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Its great to hear some success stories coming out of my tactica Pash! Thanks for sharing that.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:37 pm 
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Another useful trick I've been pondering with Great Eagles (that should also work pretty well with Reavers) is denying a unit the ability to 'Combat Reform'.

Flanking an enemy unit is particularly good for the High Elves, not so much for the +1 combat res, but because the opponent can not make supporting attacks (or make parry saves) which means there will be fewer attacks coming back at your fragile and expensive troops. However, if the enemy holds after the first round of combat they can (usually) combat reform, bringing their full amount of attacks to bear. However, if you charge an eagle into the flank or rear of the same combat, the enemy cannot combat reform until the eagle is dead (as a unit engaged on more than one facing cannot make Combat Reforms, BRB p.55). Probably not worth making a frontal charge with the Eagle (what with supporting attacks, many units have a good chance of taking him down first round) but as long as he's to the flank or rear he should survive a few rounds against the 3-4 models that will be able to attack him. This pins the enemy unit in place, and ensures your flanking unit of Elves continues to gain the benefits of being in the flank much longer than they would otherwise. Its a great way of minimising casualties on your expensive elves in a prolonged combat, should you manage to get a flank charge.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Excellent tactica. I would like to add a "trick" and point out a mistake.

First, the trick: I recently played a game against a very shooty DE army with 3 units of 30 DE crossbowmen. Their shooting was tearing me up. I positioned an eagle on a hill, behind my poor unit of remaining archers (also on the hill). Then, the next turn, I charged the eagle against a unit of 30 DE repeating crossbowmen, from the front, from 18 inches away (rolled an 8, luckily). Of course, they got the stand-and-shoot, with 60 shots, against my poor 3 wound no armor eagle.

However, because the eagle was behind the archers when they shot (stand-and-fire is normally done at the maximum range of the weapon, or at the beginning of the charge if already within the weapon's range), the shots had a -2 hard cover modifier. With -1 for stand and fire, -1 for long range, -1 for multiple shots, and -2 for hard cover, the DE crossbowmen were hitting on 8's! The eagle didn't take a single wound from the 60 shot stand and fire!

Since the eagle was charging downhill, the resulting combat resolution was at +2. The eagle took a wound, killed a DE (removing the +1 for the back row) and won the combat by 2! Sadly for the eagle, his luck had run out, and the crossbowmen passed their leadership test. Eventually weight of numbers killed the eagle. But the little 50 point eagle had stopped the unit from firing for a turn and killed 2 DEs.

So the trick is, if charging with an eagle against a unit that will stand and fire, charge from behind one of your own units!


On the first "trick" for eagles, classic war machine hunting, you include the eagle's stomp when calculating wounds done. Stomp does not work against warmachines (their crew are not of unit type infantry, they are still warmachines). Don't get me wrong, eagles are still good warmachine hunters, but the stomp doesn't help in this capacity.

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Haha! I'm guessing that the codename for this will be Operation Evil Bumrush.
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Close buts its a bit more Operation Chargeblerghvomitvomiteateat ooolook I grew an extra head


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:01 pm 
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tethlis the slayer wrote:
Another useful trick I've been pondering with Great Eagles (that should also work pretty well with Reavers) is denying a unit the ability to 'Combat Reform'.

Flanking an enemy unit is particularly good for the High Elves, not so much for the +1 combat res, but because the opponent can not make supporting attacks (or make parry saves) which means there will be fewer attacks coming back at your fragile and expensive troops. However, if the enemy holds after the first round of combat they can (usually) combat reform, bringing their full amount of attacks to bear. However, if you charge an eagle into the flank or rear of the same combat, the enemy cannot combat reform until the eagle is dead (as a unit engaged on more than one facing cannot make Combat Reforms, BRB p.55). Probably not worth making a frontal charge with the Eagle (what with supporting attacks, many units have a good chance of taking him down first round) but as long as he's to the flank or rear he should survive a few rounds against the 3-4 models that will be able to attack him. This pins the enemy unit in place, and ensures your flanking unit of Elves continues to gain the benefits of being in the flank much longer than they would otherwise. Its a great way of minimising casualties on your expensive elves in a prolonged combat, should you manage to get a flank charge.


Excellent idea! I will add that to Trick #7.

krysith wrote:
I recently played a game against a very shooty DE army with 3 units of 30 DE crossbowmen. Their shooting was tearing me up. I positioned an eagle on a hill, behind my poor unit of remaining archers (also on the hill). Then, the next turn, I charged the eagle against a unit of 30 DE repeating crossbowmen, from the front, from 18 inches away (rolled an 8, luckily). Of course, they got the stand-and-shoot, with 60 shots, against my poor 3 wound no armor eagle.

However, because the eagle was behind the archers when they shot (stand-and-fire is normally done at the maximum range of the weapon, or at the beginning of the charge if already within the weapon's range), the shots had a -2 hard cover modifier. With -1 for stand and fire, -1 for long range, -1 for multiple shots, and -2 for hard cover, the DE crossbowmen were hitting on 8's! The eagle didn't take a single wound from the 60 shot stand and fire!

Since the eagle was charging downhill, the resulting combat resolution was at +2. The eagle took a wound, killed a DE (removing the +1 for the back row) and won the combat by 2! Sadly for the eagle, his luck had run out, and the crossbowmen passed their leadership test. Eventually weight of numbers killed the eagle. But the little 50 point eagle had stopped the unit from firing for a turn and killed 2 DEs.


Interesting. I'll add this in as well.

krysith wrote:
On the first "trick" for eagles, classic war machine hunting, you include the eagle's stomp when calculating wounds done. Stomp does not work against warmachines (their crew are not of unit type infantry, they are still warmachines). Don't get me wrong, eagles are still good warmachine hunters, but the stomp doesn't help in this capacity.


Hrm... this seems stretching it a little bit. The actual crew of all warmachines are still infantry, so I want to get a third opinion on this.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:03 am 
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No, krysith is correct. War machines are unit type - war machine. Infantry is a different troop type.

Thanks for pointing that out, krysith, I totally missed that one.

All the best uses that I am aware of have already been pointed out, but I did notice a couple of variants in my last game versus Ogres. I missed the play at the time, but I noticed it later in my turn. Due to the new charging rules that force units to declare reactions to each charge as they are declared, I realized that had I declared a charge with my eagle first ( it was basically behind the unit), I could have prevented the unit from having a real option to choose to flee. If it had held against the eagle and fled from the spears in front, the eagle would have reached it with about a roll of a 4 or 5. Since I charged the spears first, the unit would have fled again when the eagle charged and The eagle would have needed an 8 or 9.

If I had charged the eagle first instead and if the ogre unit had chose to flee initially, it would have fled toward the spears first and then back toward the eagle almost surely dooming itself to being caught by one or the other.

Basically, I could have prevented my opponent from having a viable option to choose flee had I been paying closer attention.

The other use often overlooked was already brought up, but has recieved little attention. This is placing it on the back flank of a large unit preventing the unit from maneuvring or wheeling effectively. Particularly useful against Brettonians, but it works in all sorts of situations. It can even prevent a unit from charging if there is terrain or another friendly unit they would need to wheel around. As a unit only gets one wheel on the charge, a properly placed eagle can stop a chage and not have to be sacrificed.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Another trick is you can funnel a unit with a pair and basically due to the 1" rule preventing them from wheeling until they move past the eagles or forcing them to waste there time doing a reform.

Code:
   EEEEE
   EEEEE
GG EEEEE GG
GG EEEEE GG


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:52 pm 
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krysith wrote:
Excellent tactica. I would like to add a "trick" and point out a mistake.

First, the trick: I recently played a game against a very shooty DE army with 3 units of 30 DE crossbowmen. Their shooting was tearing me up. I positioned an eagle on a hill, behind my poor unit of remaining archers (also on the hill). Then, the next turn, I charged the eagle against a unit of 30 DE repeating crossbowmen, from the front, from 18 inches away (rolled an 8, luckily). Of course, they got the stand-and-shoot, with 60 shots, against my poor 3 wound no armor eagle.

However, because the eagle was behind the archers when they shot (stand-and-fire is normally done at the maximum range of the weapon, or at the beginning of the charge if already within the weapon's range), the shots had a -2 hard cover modifier. With -1 for stand and fire, -1 for long range, -1 for multiple shots, and -2 for hard cover, the DE crossbowmen were hitting on 8's! The eagle didn't take a single wound from the 60 shot stand and fire!

Since the eagle was charging downhill, the resulting combat resolution was at +2. The eagle took a wound, killed a DE (removing the +1 for the back row) and won the combat by 2! Sadly for the eagle, his luck had run out, and the crossbowmen passed their leadership test. Eventually weight of numbers killed the eagle. But the little 50 point eagle had stopped the unit from firing for a turn and killed 2 DEs.

So the trick is, if charging with an eagle against a unit that will stand and fire, charge from behind one of your own units!


That is awesome... Can we use that to leapfrog (leapfly) our Great Eagles somehow?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Brilliant thread =D> really great.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:36 am 
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Something i do a lot with my GE is place them in front of an enemy Unit. Not straight in front of it! But making sure it hasn't a possibilitie to charge my other unit that is just in front of my enemies. I sort of force them to charge my GE or be charged the next turn by a unit of myself (very good for +1CR for charging.) If however the enemy unit charges the great eagle you just flee. and then it exposes his flank to yer better unit. (wich then gives u +2CR, charging and flank).

eeeeeeeeeeee------------
eeeeeeeeeeee------------
eeeeeeeeeeee------------
--------------------------
---------gg---------------
--------gg----------------
-------------------------
--------------------------
--------------------------
HHHHHHHHHHHH-----------



Sorry for my language, not that good in english i think.

Greetings

Griswald


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:44 am 
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#8 is really, really great. And new to me :) Are you sure that this is going to be accepted by the opponents?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:29 pm 
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excellent stuff guys,thanks.
a question about #8 though.If the majority of your eagle model is visible above the hard cover unit,could the opponent not claim true line of sight to it(BRB,pg41)?Or do we assume the eagle has landed?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:37 am 
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Greenman wrote:
excellent stuff guys,thanks.
a question about #8 though.If the majority of your eagle model is visible above the hard cover unit,could the opponent not claim true line of sight to it(BRB,pg41)?Or do we assume the eagle has landed?


Yes he can indeed. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:46 pm 
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Hi! I am new to this forum because I play Empire as my main army, but I play HE alot and have a WE army as well so I found the topic intressting.

A tip from a Empire General. We often use Master Enginners (After 8th came along anyway) to boost our warmachines. If the stay within 3" of a warmachine then the warmachin may reroll an artillery die. So if your eagle is about to charge a warmachine and the Engineer is standing near by, charge the nerd. If he flees then the other warmachine(s) can not use his re-roll (There are often more than one warmachine close to him) and you can redirect towards the warmachine of your choise. If he stays, he dies and the warmachines have to test for panic against Ld7, and the re-rolls are gone. He comes at 65 pts (The eagle earns her pts back) and are useless in a fight, few generals equipe them with their expencive weapons because they can not shoot if their re-rolls are used. So he is a WS3, T3, W2 and A1 kind of guy. If the charge comes at the right angle he will flee through a warmachine and force a nother panic test.

And remember to stay away from Huntsmen! My unit has killed all but one eagle that my HE opponent have fielded, the one that got away did so because the huntsmen was burn with magic very early in the game.

Thanks for a good tactica.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:35 pm 
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seriade wrote:
Another trick is you can funnel a unit with a pair and basically due to the 1" rule preventing them from wheeling until they move past the eagles or forcing them to waste there time doing a reform.

Code:
   EEEEE
   EEEEE
GG EEEEE GG
GG EEEEE GG


I love this. If they do reform to face an eagle, the expose a flank potentially, and they can't declare a charge until the next turn. If they don't, ready a good unit to charge the front and then have a flank charge from an eagle as well.

In my last game, I flew my Eagles down the the flanks to go War Machine hunting. My opponent was so concerned about this, he actually turned some units around to go after the Eagles. This helped me because it meant his unit were coming at my main force in a more piecemeal and longer fashion. People get nervous when you have big birds hanging around their flanks and rears, hunting mages, killing war machines and always ready for an assist with a flank or rear charge.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Quick question. Can I direct a stomp attack at a character or champion or does it get randomized like a shooting attack or impact hits? So when I charge a unit with a mage can I stomp the mage if my 2 S4 attacks don't finish it off?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Baerion wrote:
Quick question. Can I direct a stomp attack at a character or champion or does it get randomized like a shooting attack or impact hits? So when I charge a unit with a mage can I stomp the mage if my 2 S4 attacks don't finish it off?


You need to read the BRB.. spelled out explicitly how Stomp works under the special rule section.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Ya I could do that, but I don't have the book with me at the moment. I'm impatient so was hoping someone who knew the answer could give me a yes/no quickly. Oh well - I guess patience is a virtue I will be learning today.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Not sure if this is a trick but it is a good way to use the eagles.

If you like to bring swordmasters, want to get into close combat, and are scared of you SMs getting shot up bring 4-6 eagles and your SMs won't get touched. If they have a lot of shooting, most armies only have a 24" range with shooting. So deploy your shooting a little bit past the 24" mark to make them take a penalty to shoot you. Then identify the utility units you don't think you will kill with your shooting. In the movement phase send your eagles after them. Then in the shooting and magic phase you blow up everything else. The units that are left will see they have eagles coming at them and either shoot or charge those, thus leaving you SMs free to do their work. I haven't had a single unit of SMs not make it into combat since 8th edition lol.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:23 am 
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how about just putting your eagle behind a unit you're about to charge and that will probably flee. the fleeing enemy will have to take a dangerous terrain test.
i'm not sure if it is every model in the unit or just the ones that would contact the eagle :? . the pursing unit may have to stop 1 inch from the eagle so may not work so well. it would be better to mow down the unit using another eagle tactic.
still may be an option.
j

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