Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

[Curu Olannon]

Indeed setting plays a big factor - I wouldn't congaline my Lions against a new player. However, as far as tactics, tips and tricks are concerned, anything within the rules should be considered

[Arrogance265]

This topic of wargaming and rules interests me greatly.

I think the rule justification behind Furion's tactic is completely legitimate and unquestionably sound, but I think caution must be offered in favor of what Ict was pointing out. That is, though this is allowed within the rule system, it seems highly unjustifiable in terms of a real conflict or tactical situation. I can't imagine how standing close to a friendly unit would cause a charge to loose impetus sooner rather than later - it seems like a somewhat perverse version of reality.

I see no rule allowing me to 'push other units a little as I please' to avoid the 1" problem.

If a friendly unit came barring down next to me and I didn't expect it to be so close (1") I just might very well take a small sidestep to give them a tiny bit more room - besides, I want them to succeed. Even more so if I'm a great eagle and have little need of rank and file. I would at least try to react in some way to allow my comrades the opportunity to close with the enemy.

I think in tournaments, players are trying to take advantage of the rules, finding ways in which they can capitilize in new ways with what should be a rigid and agreed upon system, as they should be. That's how we compete in gaming. However, I think all of us to a certain extent like to believe that a rule system helps create a certain level of tactical realism. I just don't like it when Warhammer becomes too chess-like: chess is very much a symbolic representation of warfare with only abstracted similarities. Warhammer has guys with swords and facings and leadership tests... and magic! Certainly, I like the concept of having an ace in the hole that my oppenent will be thrown by and may earn me victory. I just don't want to make enemies or loose the sense of imagination along the way. Just food for thought.

That said, I love this thread, refer to it constantly for new ideas to utilize our books most versatile tactical unit. And I'll probably end up using every one of these tricks by the end of the year.

[RedAl]

A new member here but long time HE player. Have found this thread quite useful, most of the tactics I knew by other means but a few I found to be thing I want try out at the first available opportunity.

Also wanted to add one of my own, its not 100 percent reliable by any means and is helped greatly by taking lore of Shadow on at least one mage and hopefully getting The Enfeebling Foe.

One of the biggest problem units for HE as I'm sure we all know are chariots, the tougher the more of problem they are but any even Tomb King chariots can be a real pain in large enough units. We simply often lack the shooting punch to deal with them, even with RBTs when there are enough of them or other threats of greater priority.

I have found flanking (or sometimes even rear charging) them with eagles and then Enfeebling the chariot works like a charm. Have even used this same trick to take out Chaos Warshrines of Tzeentch as really its almost next to impossible to deal any damage to it with 3+ ward save.

Its just one of the many reasons I almost always take at least 3 but usually 4 eagles every game. As it stands they far outweigh RBTs as the rare option to take.

[Findolfin]

I'm curious to see what playing environment would allow to prevent a charge failure from happening.
1'' is ignored during the charge.
A failed charge is still a charge. Failure doesn't remove the fact it's a charge. It just don't reach target.

Besides, I encourage you to look at page 13 of the rule book where the 1'' apart rule is clearly defined as being purely for clarity. There is no provision in that rule to allow such a blatant exploitation of it.

[Ictoagn]

Findolfin's post made me look at the 1" rule section again, and came across something specifically about being within 1" of a unit not being charged. So Curu, in response to this:

I see no rule allowing me to 'push other units a little as I please' to avoid the 1" problem.

Occasionally, a unit will have approached to within 1" of a unit it did not charge as the result of moving into contact with a unit it did charge. This is perfectly acceptable, although players may wish to nudge the units further apart to maintain a suitable degree of clarity.

I know that the wording technically only allows for completed charges, but it could easily be considered applicable to failed ones as well.

As I said, I am not a tournament player and have never tried this in a tournament, but I would be surprised to see it ruled as being legal. Has anyone actually tried this and gotten a ruling? From Furion's posts, it seems that he may have, but I can't speak for him.

[Shannar, Sealord]

Well I see 8th has done nothing to change some of the sillyness that come into play in tournament play. Warhammer is not really a tournament game, and wasn't intended to be when it was created. But, everything has to be competitive for some. I get that. But I wouldn't do it when playing with friends that's for sure.

[Ildrahir]

Great topic and excellent advice!

Collinisimo: Could you please edit your initial post and any other containing the incorrect statement that Eagles get stomp attacks vs. warmachines. You only ever get stomp attacks vs. infantry and war machines have unit type "war machine" not infantry, no matter the crew.

tnx! =)

Here is an ETC document of some of the dirty tricks that should absolutely not be attempted:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... w1s-RneOt8

I have a couple of dirty tricks up my sleeve as well.

First, some comments on the existing ones:

#4 Add "The Triple block" taught by a friend and great tournament player. Basically you perform the double block but add yet another Great Eagle (or random character or any other unit really, Reavers/Chariot, Shadow Warriors, even march a combat unit up close). Your opponent declares first charge: you flee, second charge: you flee, and then there is no third redirect resulting in a failed charge in which your opponent gets to move forward not the highest D6 of his charge roll but perhaps 0.1 inch stopping 1 inch from your third blocking eagle/unit which remains free to move in your next turn and without having risked your opponent catching your second blocking Eagle. If you have a preference which of these three units you want to have not flee from charge, simply place the two fleeing units slightly closer to the enemy unit, forcing them to charge these first, just be sure to avoid your opponent is unable to contact the unit you don't want charged through wheeling.

#4 Add "Charging from hills", as someone allready mentioned. Would be good to add to the +3 combat res scenario as it would give you a wooping 4+ combat res, especially good if you have a stardragon/cavalry prince locked in challenge with some other dragon/greater daemon.

Some tricks deserving new numbers?

Drawing out fanatics, don't forget you can continue your movement after the fanatics have been released potentially allowing you to get within 8 of another unit with fanatics(and perhaps finishing your move atop a mangler). This is best done first turn as the fanatics will probably ruin more for the OnG player if released so close to his lines, even if this costs you 50points.

(THIS NEXT ONE IS AWESOME)
Tactical wheeling
During your charge move, you are allowed one wheel of up to 90 degrees. This means that in this situation when faced with a line of war machines, your Eagle can easily take out several of them quickly. War machines have no facings and so you never "close the door" on them meaning as long as your Eagle contacts any part of the war machines base (or chassis if they have no base), combat can proceed.

Example:

E = Eagle (facing down towards war machines)

W = War machine

+ = empty space

|
|---> = Charge Path suggested

EEE
EEE
|
|
|
|
|
|
|---->WW++++WW
+++++WW++++WW

This requires careful positioning of your Eagles in the previous turn to get the facing right.
However, if facing a war machine directly to the front, simply conduct your charge move by stopping roughly 2 inches(length of Eagle base) in front of the war machine and utilize your 90 degree wheel to angle your Eagle and hopefully securing a beneficial overrun, works well against a line of war machines based on chariot bases as you should be able to get at least a 45 degree wheel before your bases touch and combat begins.


Now go forth and bugger your opponents even more with Ulthuans dirtiest chicken tactics! =D
//Ildrahir

[Shannar, Sealord]

Some of the ones in that PDF are extremely funny. I still don't care for abusing the movement rules like this, but some of the changes in 8th have given a whole new comedy routine.

[Th3_5had0w_K1ng]

Some of the ones in that PDF are extremely funny. I still don't care for abusing the movement rules like this, but some of the changes in 8th have given a whole new comedy routine.

What pdf?

[Ildrahir]

This one =)

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... w1s-RneOt8

[Th3_5had0w_K1ng]

This one =)

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... w1s-RneOt8

Haha yeah, it is pretty ridiculous.

[Yvran the Prince]

What about this one? I'm a bit of a noob so I'm not even sure if it's legal, let alone useful, but you could put an eagle on each side of the big enemy deathstar and one behind it. It cannot retreat or wheel without coming within 1" of an eagle and so can only go forwards. Not sure how this helps, but forcing an enemy to move in a certain way has to be good for something, right? Could just be a waste of eagles though.

[Ictoagn]

The biggest problem I see with this is that depending on its size and movement speed, the enemy unit would still be able to wheel after moving forward past the eagles. Even in situations where it would force the enemy to move forward, it requires three eagles and still allows movement, and as a result would probably be less effective than using a pair out in front to flee from charges.

[Yvran the Prince]

I actually tried it in the last game I played. There was not much point as the rest of the army destroyed me anyway, but I pulled it off by casting Miasma at the end of each magic phase. After trying it, I conclude that it is a waste of eagles.

[JudgeSmails]

Trick #2, 'Wizard Assassination'
Here is another classic that most of you must already know as well. Don't worry old experienced players, we'll get into some more complex tricks later, but this is for those of you who are relatively new and still need to learn the old tricks. Anyways, what you do here usually takes 2 or more eagles, but the pay off is well worth it. What you do is you charge in an eagle to the front of an opponents unit that is holding their oh-so-powerful-mage. Then, you direct all of the eagles attacks at your opponents mage. Because mages are generally fragile and do not have much protection, you should be getting 1.55555 wounds (stomp included). You're eagle will then surely be killed afterward. However, in your next turn you do the same thing, charge in with a second eagle. With two onslaughts of this, you should be averaging 3 wounds on their mage, and this is usually enough to kill it. And trust me, 100 points is well worth the points for your opponents mage, and stopping their magic relatively early in the game.

Please excuse my question as I am still pretty new to the game. I have read through the rule book but am not familiar with all the intricacies. Can someone tell me what rule allows you to direct attacks in close combat at a particular model within that unit?

[Rychek]

When in close combat, a model which is in base to base contact with models that have different profiles (a Lord/Hero/Charachter and a rank and file model, for example) the attacker may choose which model to attack. In the case of an eagle, it will likely be in contact with several models due to the width of it's own base. If the models in base contact have separate profiles, the eagle can distribute it's two attacks however the controlling player sees fit among the models in base contact. For further details, see page 48 of the BRB (Dividing Attacks section).

[JudgeSmails]

When in close combat, a model which is in base to base contact with models that have different profiles (a Lord/Hero/Charachter and a rank and file model, for example) the attacker may choose which model to attack. In the case of an eagle, it will likely be in contact with several models due to the width of it's own base. If the models in base contact have separate profiles, the eagle can distribute it's two attacks however the controlling player sees fit among the models in base contact. For further details, see page 48 of the BRB (Dividing Attacks section).

Thanks, so basically I need to charge in on an angle so that when I wheel in I will be in base contact with the enemy mage. What if the mage is not in the first rank?

[The Black Knight]

Thanks, so basically I need to charge in on an angle so that when I wheel in I will be in base contact with the enemy mage. What if the mage is not in the first rank?

The mage has to be in the first rank unless your playing bretonnians

[finreir]

Thanks, so basically I need to charge in on an angle so that when I wheel in I will be in base contact with the enemy mage. What if the mage is not in the first rank?

The mage has to be in the first rank unless your playing bretonnians

mages dont have to be in first rank it could be 5 man rank with full command bsb and hero in front rank with wizard in second.
If he was in second rank then you can assassinate, please remember eagles are initiative 4 and also they are only 2 attacks i really cant see you assassinating anything that isn't t3 no ward and only on 1w

[Furion]

Here is another classic that most of you must already know as well. Don't worry old experienced players, we'll get into some more complex tricks later, but this is for those of you who are relatively new and still need to learn the old tricks. Anyways, what you do here usually takes 2 or more eagles, but the pay off is well worth it. What you do is you charge in an eagle to the front of an opponents unit that is holding their oh-so-powerful-mage. Then, you direct all of the eagles attacks at your opponents mage. Because mages are generally fragile and do not have much protection, you should be getting 1.55555 wounds (stomp included). You're eagle will then surely be killed afterward. However, in your next turn you do the same thing, charge in with a second eagle. With two onslaughts of this, you should be averaging 3 wounds on their mage, and this is usually enough to kill it. And trust me, 100 points is well worth the points for your opponents mage, and stopping their magic relatively early in the game.

There is a mistake in this article. You can't direct your stomp at a specific model in base contact, you direct them against a unit. Therefore, an eagle inflicts usually a 0.89 of a wound on mage.

cheers
Furion

[capt batwings]

you got to love the eagles (or pigeons as my opponents say) great tacctica

[Collinisimo]

Finally got around to fixing the stomp ruling.

I'm glad you found it useful, capt batwings

[Shandwen]

I'm not sure if this was covered, but trick #8 is very, very situational. As a current HE and Dwarf player, I have had to focus a good mount on learning stand and shoot, and i would never put a block of shooting out without some character in it that has a short range shooting attack. This short range attack drops the whole units stand and shoot to their range, and would negate any modifiers for the rest other than the -1 for stand and shoot (no long range, soft or hard cover). The stand and shoot is determined at the longest possible range of the whole unit, and yes, #8 would work against crossbows with no pistol guy in it, but against anyone who looks at stand and shoot, it wont mean much.

[XyonBlade]

This might deserve its own topic, but I wanted to add to this one since its a sticky and whatnot.

How is everyone feelin about the new great eagles? We lost the ability to field more than 2 individual eagles in under 3k points now that the 'extra rare' FAQ/errata from the last book is gone. Has anyone taken to fielding a unit of 2 or more eagles?

What about upgrades? I can see the ASF upgrade being worth it, especially on an eagle, or a unit of two eagles, which you intend to charge into a mage, potentially getting rerolls to hit would make their 2 attacks more likely to kill their intended target. I don't see the armor piercing upgrade as being very useful with how eagles seem like they should be used, unless it was an upgrade for a hero's eagle mount, but now that gryphons can be given to nobles and not just princes, they seem like a better mount than an eagle, and have the best 2 of the 3 'beast' upgrades.

[Palinux]

I think 2 eagles will be plenty. With the old book you didn't really had a lot to spend your rare points on. Now with the new book, there is a bunch of stuff that you will want to take from the rare section. Also, reavers in core compete with the eagles. Which one each player prefer is up to them. Eagles have fly, but reavers are fast cav. Points are not the same, but reavers are from the core section.
For what I use eagles for (stand in the way, redirect and charge fleeing units) it's not worth the extra points.

Personally my eagles are left at home in favor for 3 units of 5 reavers with swap for bows

[elvishhealer]

The trick where you pivot an eagle so it flees towards a table edge and pulls a unit out of combat :

You have to choose how you pivot him as he can rally and should not flee off the table thereby annulating his W3. The eagle can be set up on the flanks and also fast cav should not be on a table edge. So choose the most convenient thing.

[Bashtrigger]

One last tactic which i have not yet seen mentioned (probably because it is very situational) is a GE's use in "beserking" a unit/model with random movement. Because random movement requires one to wheel the model/unit before moving a number of inches straight ahead, you can move your eagle to the side of the model/unit, so that it cannot legally wheel (has to stay 1" out of your way). The model/unit now cannot wheel and hence has no choice but to move straight ahead.

The most rewarding and most likely case for this is the very much dreaded steamtank. Just get your eagle in its side and it now cannot wheel to face (and shoot) your monsters/chariots nor will it be able to move in any other way than straight ahead

PS. Sorry for replying to a threat which hasn't seen a post in over a year

PPS. The ruling about this is still rather unclear, so make sure about your houserules in the following matter: Some folks will argue that the steamtank is allowed to wheel, and hence touch the great eagle base and hence 'charge' the GE. But since charges normally require the front of a unit/model to move in base contact with an enemy, some other folks say that unless the steamtank can touch the Eagle with its front, it will not be able to 'charge' the GE. The latter has become the ruling in my gaming circle, but one can discuss this point endlessly, even though I personally believe the random movement rules on p.74 point to our interpretation of the situation (first wheel then move, then if the move is found to take the unit into contact, it counts as charging)

[raccoonhat]

The steamtank can use its steamgun to fry the chicken, which will take a turn.

[Bolt Thrower]

One last tactic which i have not yet seen mentioned (probably because it is very situational) is a GE's use in "beserking" a unit/model with random movement. Because random movement requires one to wheel the model/unit before moving a number of inches straight ahead, you can move your eagle to the side of the model/unit, so that it cannot legally wheel (has to stay 1" out of your way). The model/unit now cannot wheel and hence has no choice but to move straight ahead.

The most rewarding and most likely case for this is the very much dreaded steamtank. Just get your eagle in its side and it now cannot wheel to face (and shoot) your monsters/chariots nor will it be able to move in any other way than straight ahead

PS. Sorry for replying to a threat which hasn't seen a post in over a year

PPS. The ruling about this is still rather unclear, so make sure about your houserules in the following matter: Some folks will argue that the steamtank is allowed to wheel, and hence touch the great eagle base and hence 'charge' the GE. But since charges normally require the front of a unit/model to move in base contact with an enemy, some other folks say that unless the steamtank can touch the Eagle with its front, it will not be able to 'charge' the GE. The latter has become the ruling in my gaming circle, but one can discuss this point endlessly, even though I personally believe the random movement rules on p.74 point to our interpretation of the situation (first wheel then move, then if the move is found to take the unit into contact, it counts as charging)

That is a good one. Also known as "railroading". Can do wonders against HPA's, too!

[Bashtrigger]

The steamtank can use its steamgun to fry the chicken, which will take a turn.

It won't be able to use it's cannon on your eagle if it can't turn and you're in it's side, it can use its flamer, but that will only ever be able to do one wound a turn, thus taking at least 3 turns.