Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

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Mithstar
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#61 Post by Mithstar »

I’ve been using the following tactic with my GE’s since 8th edition started. I’ve been too lazy to post it earlier… :? My bad! 8) I call it the Mobile “Impassable Terrain”.

Mobile “Impassable Terrain”: Because magic and war machine shooting has become so dangerous, more and more players are using scouts and skirmishers to try and neutralise the threat. Most scouts and skirmishers operate between the two armies. This creates quite a unique opportunity. If a group of scouts or skirmishers are in front of an important enemy close combat unit (basically any unit you can’t yet combat) or a unit containing the bsb, general, etc, charge it with a GE. Your GE should take no more than 1 wound (using cover) charging in. Combat should be close (±1 point difference, very important) and both units are stuck in combat. However, now you have a combat that can continue for ± 2 turns, slowing down the enemy unit behind it considerably. In the hands of a capable general this tactic (even though it's situational) can be used to outmanoeuvre the enemy to great effect.
This tactic has a very nice synergy with the Lore of Life.
Awsten
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#62 Post by Awsten »

Can anyone clarify by citing the rules, how a GE gets a hard
cover bonus for charging from behind a friendly unit?
f00ssa
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#63 Post by f00ssa »

Awsten wrote:Can anyone clarify by citing the rules, how a GE gets a hard
cover bonus for charging from behind a friendly unit?
From the Target Behind Hard Cover subsection of page 41 - if a majority of your model is obscured by a unit the shooters are at -2 from hard cover.
Jedra
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#64 Post by Jedra »

also the charge reaction and its effects are completed before you move the chargers. so if its charging from behind, it gets the benefits from being behind the unit.
Awsten
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#65 Post by Awsten »

Jedra wrote:also the charge reaction and its effects are completed before you move the chargers. so if its charging from behind, it gets the benefits from being behind the unit.
This is incorrect. You should not be getting a hard cover bonus since it is assumed the shots are not fired until the charger is in range. You wouldn't fire at a charging enemy as it begins it's charge you wait until it's in range. Also the shots are fired as the enemy "bears down on you" hence the -1 to hit modifier.

Quiting taking hard cover bonuses it's not right...
Jedra
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#66 Post by Jedra »

Sorry who assumes that?

The rules have a specific order. Charge reactions are declared and completed before you move the eagle. If you assumed otherwise, check again.
Awsten
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#67 Post by Awsten »

So you are saying range 8 handbows can and must shoot at eagles at 18 inch range with a -2 hard cover modifier? Think again and quit taking the modifier, you get a -1 modifier and nothing more unless multiple shots are taken at which you get -2...
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#68 Post by Natio »

Awsten wrote:So you are saying range 8 handbows can and must shoot at eagles at 18 inch range with a -2 hard cover modifier? Think again and quit taking the modifier, you get a -1 modifier and nothing more unless multiple shots are taken at which you get -2...
I think on a careful reading of the stand and shoot rules that it is more likely that thte unit making the reaction is subject to all the modifiers for a normal round of shooting. Firstly, the rule specifies that the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence shooting attack and even refers to the shooting rules for more details. This then makes the stand and shoot subject to all the rules for a normal shooting attack, with the addition of the -1 from a charging enemy.

On the subject of a Great Eagle getting hard cover from being behind a unit of friendly troops, remember TLoS is in effect and hard or soft cover is only confered if the model has more than 50% coverage.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#69 Post by Silver »

Awsten wrote:So you are saying range 8 handbows can and must shoot at eagles at 18 inch range with a -2 hard cover modifier? Think again and quit taking the modifier, you get a -1 modifier and nothing more unless multiple shots are taken at which you get -2...
All modifiers apply. Though the stand & shoot happens at 8" which is the minimal range of the weapon, instead of happening at where the eagle starts its charge.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#70 Post by Awsten »

Natio wrote:
Awsten wrote:So you are saying range 8 handbows can and must shoot at eagles at 18 inch range with a -2 hard cover modifier? Think again and quit taking the modifier, you get a -1 modifier and nothing more unless multiple shots are taken at which you get -2...
I think on a careful reading of the stand and shoot rules that it is more likely that thte unit making the reaction is subject to all the modifiers for a normal round of shooting. Firstly, the rule specifies that the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence shooting attack and even refers to the shooting rules for more details. This then makes the stand and shoot subject to all the rules for a normal shooting attack, with the addition of the -1 from a charging enemy.

On the subject of a Great Eagle getting hard cover from being behind a unit of friendly troops, remember TLoS is in effect and hard or soft cover is only confered if the model has more than 50% coverage.
Whatever I am not really concerned with modifiers per se. In fact there is even question if there is a Long range modifier as well as one can argue they hold fire until "they can see the white of their eyes". The fact of the matter is people are trying to stack rules that shouldn't be. Shooting at charging flyers doesn't infer a cover penalty because the flyers are not behind cover since they are flying over whatever unit was in front of them.

Its like telling an opponent who has pistols (range 12") that his shooting is at -2 modifier because his chargers are behind a unit that locates them 18" away.

I can't believe this is even being argued. Its quite friggin obvious you shoot at the chargers as they move at you (hence the modifier). I would laugh hysterically in anyones face who tried to pull this rule on me and tell them to pound sand.

This is a gentlemen's game, remember that.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#71 Post by Silver »

Don't apply logic to rules.

The Stand&shoot happens at the range of the shortest ranged weapon. If the charger is still within cover, even a flyer, when the shots are fired then you count the cover.

Example:
Dwarf Thunderers 24" range, Dwarf Thunderer Champion with Brace of Pistols, 12" range.

Any stand & shoot done by the unit will be done at 12", thus the thunderers will have short range so no penalty other than the -1 for charging enemy. The Champ will haev his long range penalty unless the pistols are exempt from it. And so the eagle will have moved out of its cover.

Without this champion, then the eagle in cover makes the shooting unit have the penalty for cover.
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Awsten
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#72 Post by Awsten »

Actually the rules even clarify this within the fly box on page 70...

"A unit that flies can move over other units or terrain as it does so, treating the entire move as taking place over open ground."

So there you go, as the move occurs they move over the unit and thus out of cover. End of story, game over, go to bed.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#73 Post by Silver »

Technically I guess, but the move hasn't started. O:
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#74 Post by Natio »

Awsten wrote:Actually the rules even clarify this within the fly box on page 70...

"A unit that flies can move over other units or terrain as it does so, treating the entire move as taking place over open ground."

So there you go, as the move occurs they move over the unit and thus out of cover. End of story, game over, go to bed.
Yes the Eagle treats the move as one over open ground but where does it say that what it is moving over is open ground for the shooters? If you want a solid arguement to deny a flyer cover behind a unit just tell your opponent that TLoS comes into play and more than 50% of the eagle must be covered by the unit in front to give cover.
[quote="Eldacar"]
It's more a "do unto others what needs to be done, and too bad for whoever gets in your way" sort of ideal.[/quote]
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limkopi
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#75 Post by limkopi »

ju1ce wrote:how about just putting your eagle behind a unit you're about to charge and that will probably flee. the fleeing enemy will have to take a dangerous terrain test.
i'm not sure if it is every model in the unit or just the ones that would contact the eagle :? . the pursing unit may have to stop 1 inch from the eagle so may not work so well. it would be better to mow down the unit using another eagle tactic.
still may be an option.
j
Only those contacting the eagle would have to take the test. Remember to place the eagle with the rear facing the target enemy unit so that if it does flee from your main unit, you can declare another charge with your eagle to catch it or chase it off board. A little tricky to implement as your opponent has a turn in between.
Taliessin
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#76 Post by Taliessin »

Awsten wrote:Actually the rules even clarify this within the fly box on page 70...

"A unit that flies can move over other units or terrain as it does so, treating the entire move as taking place over open ground."

So there you go, as the move occurs they move over the unit and thus out of cover. End of story, game over, go to bed.
In other words, its not taking dangerous terrain, and can fly over units. It does not mean it is not elligible for cover.

When a unit stands and shoots, it MUST do so, as soon as the enemy enters range. If the target is behind cover when it enters range, to bad. End of story. I dont get why you bring up handbows as proof that the concept never works. Yes, it probably is impossible, or at least impractical against them, but against any unit with a larger range, it is very effective. In many cases, the unit with short range weapons is taking a -2 penalty, and if the target is in cover this will increase.

Last off, i dont get your attitude, this is a rules debate, there is not need/desire for the curses etc.
May the Mods smite me if I step out of line. ;)
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Awsten
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#77 Post by Awsten »

Um no, once again the eagles are flying OVER the unit in front of them. Heres a concept, if you are OVER something you are probably not BEHIND something huh...

Besides the other arguement is that since they are behind hard cover then they cannot draw line of sight to declare the charge in the first place.

Either way its a no go...
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#78 Post by KJSparkz »

Awsten wrote:Um no, once again the eagles are flying OVER the unit in front of them. Heres a concept, if you are OVER something you are probably not BEHIND something huh...

Besides the other arguement is that since they are behind hard cover then they cannot draw line of sight to declare the charge in the first place.

Either way its a no go...
Two simple points shoot down your arguements, flyers as per P70 BRB specifically allow declaration of charges from behind intervening units with only LoS restrictions and secondly Flyers aside from when thjey actually move are counted as being on the ground when not actually moving thus at the time the charge is declared they are behind the intervening unit and hard cover and dont move until such time as all charges and reactions have been declared.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#79 Post by Awsten »

KJSparkz wrote: Two simple points shoot down your arguements, flyers as per P70 BRB specifically allow declaration of charges from behind intervening units with only LoS restrictions and secondly Flyers aside from when thjey actually move are counted as being on the ground when not actually moving thus at the time the charge is declared they are behind the intervening unit and hard cover and dont move until such time as all charges and reactions have been declared.
It says "Depending on the models height/position it will sometimes be able to draw line of site over intervening units to a more distant target and make a flying charge OVER the intervening unit."

Thus when the unit is moving the charge is taking place OVER a unit and not BEHIND them, therefore you get no cover modifier. Furthermore you cannot claim both the charge modifier and cover modifier. On one hand you are trying to punish them for moving at them while on the other claiming they are not technically moving yet so they are still behind cover. Its both illogical and unreasonable.

But like I have already said, play how YOU feel is necessary against your opponents. But remember this is a gentlemen's game. I wouldn't let it fly on any day ending with "y". Pun intended...

And if I may add one more point, for instances when a Great Eagle is behind an infantry unit and my opponent is shooting at them in their normal shooting phase. I would only take a soft cover bonus and expect the same of my opponent. Great Eagles are monstorous beast and as such a mere man/elf is not going to provide hard cover for them to duck behind.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#80 Post by Silver »

A Great Eagle model would be too tall to have cover from normal infantry, granted. However... If it happened to be obscured by a building but still drawing line of sight to its target and the enemy was within shooting range of the charger, then yes, you would apply BOTH the -1 for being charged at and -2 for hard cover of building.

The rules work this way, no matter how 'illogical' you claim it is. And no matter how against you are, it will go down a D6, 1-3 someone wins, 4-6 the other wins and the game is played with the rule decided by a dice roll, because thats what the rulebook says to do in such cases. You're not going to win every dispute just because you feel you're right.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#81 Post by Taliessin »

-IF the GE is covered 50+ %,

-IF the GE is able to see the enemy it wants to charge,

-IF the GE is within shooting range of the unit it is charging when it begins the charge, rather than later on

Than it will gain cover because the enemy begins shooting it the moment it begins to charge, and at that point it is still behind cover. It is only in the air when it is above a piece of terrain or a unit.


Some diagrams.

GE= Great eagle (duh)
:o = Great eagles head
x=friendly models
y=enemy models


------------------------------
---xxxxxxx---------yyyyy
GE xxxxxxx --------yyyyy
---xxxxxxx
--- xxxxxxx

-------------------------------
How it gets cover while seeing (notice how its body is covered but its head can see over the unit.)

-------- :o
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <---its body is still there, but covered.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I do agree that it will be very rare for these IFs to occur, but IF they do, the Great eagle can and does get cover against the stand and shoot!

I also wish archers could hold their fire until an opportune time against charges (why do they not wait till short range at least?!) but thats the rules of the game, they shoot the second the target is in range whether he is covered or not.
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Awsten
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#82 Post by Awsten »

Sorry but I do not accept that an eagle that stands 12 feet tall or more can successfully hide behind an infantry unit Mid flight. The only way a charge like this can occur is if it flies over the unit and I for one do not accept a players stance that the eagle is hugging the ground to avoid fire. Its absurd and unacceptable.

The mere action of flying wil put the eagle above the plane of the infantry's heads. Much less the fact the thing stands much taller than infantry.

But as I said earlier, try what you will...
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#83 Post by Silver »

Well again, there's no 'hugging the ground' in this case.
All depends on how the model is .. modeled!

If its on a flying stand then it will definitely not have any cover.

The physical form is all that matters for true line of sight, so I used a building for a better example.

If the model is on the ground then it depends on the 50% covered or not.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#84 Post by davieste »

I haven't seen the situational Abom control. The Abom moves by pivoting and then moving in a straight line. If you place am eagle 1 inch away on it's flank, it can't pivot before it moves (as will go within 1 inch of the eagle on the pivot) so can only go straight forward in a line it was already facing. So you can use an eagle to stop the Abom from turning again for the rest of the game. Gamey but I generally dont have sympathy for Abom players... :twisted:

You can do this with SW as well.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#85 Post by Natio »

davieste wrote:I haven't seen the situational Abom control. The Abom moves by pivoting and then moving in a straight line. If you place am eagle 1 inch away on it's flank, it can't pivot before it moves (as will go within 1 inch of the eagle on the pivot) so can only go straight forward in a line it was already facing. So you can use an eagle to stop the Abom from turning again for the rest of the game. Gamey but I generally dont have sympathy for Abom players... :twisted:

You can do this with SW as well.
They specify that the 1 inch rule is more for clarity than anything else. To use it to prevent a pivot would earn you a swift kick in the shin from most players in friendly games and a 0 for sportmanship at any tourny.
[quote="Eldacar"]
It's more a "do unto others what needs to be done, and too bad for whoever gets in your way" sort of ideal.[/quote]
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#86 Post by threewestwinds »

Natio wrote:They specify that the 1 inch rule is more for clarity than anything else. To use it to prevent a pivot would earn you a swift kick in the shin from most players in friendly games and a 0 for sportmanship at any tourny.
It's a perfectly valid tactic, spelled out in the rules. Chess players don't get kicked for using a standard opening, starcraft players don't get kicked for using a zerg rush. Until the TO says "no pivot blocking" in the orientation packet, pivot blocking is unambiguously legal. Don't try and force your house rules on me, especially not at a tournament.

But that's an argument for a different thread.

I've actually been shying away from taking as many eagles as I used to, because my lists are so heavy on cavalry. 5-man DP squads aren't so good for some manoeuvre listed in this thread, but they are excellent at others.

One thing to note is that most of the tactics presented here are best used in support of a large, slow block of infantry - since I don't take any large blocks, many of them don't apply to my playstyle. Eagles are good - I'm not denying that - but just like any other unit, there are times when you don't need the options they provide.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#87 Post by Natio »

threewestwinds wrote:
Natio wrote:They specify that the 1 inch rule is more for clarity than anything else. To use it to prevent a pivot would earn you a swift kick in the shin from most players in friendly games and a 0 for sportmanship at any tourny.
It's a perfectly valid tactic, spelled out in the rules. Chess players don't get kicked for using a standard opening, starcraft players don't get kicked for using a zerg rush. Until the TO says "no pivot blocking" in the orientation packet, pivot blocking is unambiguously legal. Don't try and force your house rules on me, especially not at a tournament.
Oh? Did you read the part where is specifies why the rule is there and what it is for? As far as I can tell it is to prevent the confusion of one model stopping next to another and looking like it is combat when it isn't. The rule even talks about how it is ok to be within 1 inch of another model when charging. How exactly would a unit be stopped from pivoting in place by another unit when the end move will be at least 1 inch away from an enemy? Some sort of GE force bubble? Obviously this is why I think someone that tries that tactic should get a 0 for sportmanship in a tourny, moving within .5cm of a model for 5 seconds so that the model can pivot doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and suggesting that it is some house rule I'm trying to force on you instead of general politeness is frustrating.

The rule even talks about how it might be good to move a unit that is closer than 1 inch to a combat it is not involved in, away for clarity. If it came down to it I'd disagree with you and ask to use the most important rule.
[quote="Eldacar"]
It's more a "do unto others what needs to be done, and too bad for whoever gets in your way" sort of ideal.[/quote]
[quote="Aryel"]Yes, let's delete all Eldacar's post count. It makes my e-penis look tiny.[/quote]
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#88 Post by threewestwinds »

Natio wrote:Oh? Did you read the part where is specifies why the rule is there and what it is for? As far as I can tell it is to prevent the confusion of one model stopping next to another and looking like it is combat when it isn't. The rule even talks about how it is ok to be within 1 inch of another model when charging.
I did read the rule. "Whilst moving, a unit is not allowed to approach closer than 1" to another unit, friend or foe, or impassible terrain." "You'll notice that this rule does not apply to the charge moves discussed later."

Intentions don't override the rule itself. The rule is no moving within 1". What the designers intended the rule for is irrelevant. If they wanted an exception, they would have written it in. But they did - you can move within 1" while charging. Good. But it does not mention an exception for pivoting.

It's like moving an extra 1/2" - I normally don't care much (at all), and wouldn't call you on it even in a tournament. Except when I've very carefully positioned myself 1/2" outside your range - then I care very much that you're at 12.5" instead of 12". And when I'm blocking you from pivoting, I care very much that you can't come within 1".

I similarly find it frustrating that you want to change the rules of the game, and will hurt my score when I don't want you to.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#89 Post by limkopi »

Awsten wrote:Sorry but I do not accept that an eagle that stands 12 feet tall or more can successfully hide behind an infantry unit Mid flight. The only way a charge like this can occur is if it flies over the unit and I for one do not accept a players stance that the eagle is hugging the ground to avoid fire. Its absurd and unacceptable.

The mere action of flying wil put the eagle above the plane of the infantry's heads. Much less the fact the thing stands much taller than infantry.

But as I said earlier, try what you will...
Although the S&S shots are assumed to be fired just within the maximum ranges of the shortest ranged weapon, they are resolved before the charger moves. Any bonuses, penalties or flee moves as a result of failed panic are applied from the initial location, not at the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon.

You don't move chargers before S&S occurs, nor do you flee from the spot when the chargers get into max range. Why do you calculate your bonuses and penalties while the chargers are moving?

Cover is determined by whether the actual model is 50% or more obscured, no abstractions of whether it is flying or on the ground is needed.
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Re: Great Eagle Tips and Tricks

#90 Post by davieste »

threewestwinds wrote:
Natio wrote:Oh? Did you read the part where is specifies why the rule is there and what it is for? As far as I can tell it is to prevent the confusion of one model stopping next to another and looking like it is combat when it isn't. The rule even talks about how it is ok to be within 1 inch of another model when charging.
I did read the rule. "Whilst moving, a unit is not allowed to approach closer than 1" to another unit, friend or foe, or impassible terrain." "You'll notice that this rule does not apply to the charge moves discussed later."

Intentions don't override the rule itself. The rule is no moving within 1". What the designers intended the rule for is irrelevant. If they wanted an exception, they would have written it in. But they did - you can move within 1" while charging. Good. But it does not mention an exception for pivoting.

It's like moving an extra 1/2" - I normally don't care much (at all), and wouldn't call you on it even in a tournament. Except when I've very carefully positioned myself 1/2" outside your range - then I care very much that you're at 12.5" instead of 12". And when I'm blocking you from pivoting, I care very much that you can't come within 1".

I similarly find it frustrating that you want to change the rules of the game, and will hurt my score when I don't want you to.
Note that it only really effects units that cant pivot later on in their move - chariots and units are pretty much unaffected.

In the last tourney I went to (which was a friendly affair), it was considered a valid tactic. It's not as if skaven dont have tools to remove the annoying budgie and is no more annoying (IMO) than repeated fast cav flee/rally/divert in 7th - i.e. a unit not going anywhere because it constantly has to charge fast cav and failing to catch them.
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