Seredain's 2nd 7th Revision - Shiny New and Playtested

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Seredain · #1 Post by **Seredain** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:42 pm

High Guys,

I’ve had something of a lengthy hiatus from the site partly due to business, partly due to painting (5000 point army without a dragon nearly fully done…), but also because I and my regular gaming partner (who mostly plays O&G’s and Lizardmen), have been working again on our revised High Elves. The intro's a bit lengthy (but hopefully informative), so apologies for that in advance.

EDIT: If like me you suffer my itchy internet-surfing fingers then you might want to go straight to the "FORCES OF ULTHUAN" heading and skip the intro and the game rules sections - they're not really important (except that spears on foot now get +1 strength against charging models with M7 or better). If you're interested in the thinking behind all this then please read on...

Introduction

Some of you may remember the revision I did way back when, based mostly around re-introducing honours. That was all very fun, but the problem was that in the end characters became so powerful that they almost rendered the troops supplementary - not what we wanted. What we wanted to achieve was to create a high elf army built up of things wearing high-quality silver armour, supplemented by powerful exotic stuff and good versatile items. We didn’t want to see armies made of min core, 3 lion chariots, 2 units of DP’s plus repeaters and a star dragon, or the same item combos on every character. We wanted to keep all our good units awesome while also forcing a high elf player to choose where his allegiances lay. Would he he go for ancient Caledorian might or Eatainian technology? Would he embrace Chrace in order to acquire their mighty chariots?

Most fundamentally we wanted to keep high elves built around infantry, and to make that infantry good enough for that theme. So, in the text you’ll find below you’ll see that those pesky dark elves still rule the roost when it comes to core army flexibility (as is their shifty nature), but that the lines of battle favoured by the high elves are some of the best for their points (within reason). That limits us in some ways (reavers and helms are still special), but part of an army’s flavour is that you can’t have everything. High Elves are the elves of infantry and steel.

Lastly, we looked at items. This was tough but also a useful way to re-introduce some individual effectiveness and ‘helfiness’ into our characters simply by improving selection. Giving our characters more choice (ie fewer really crap items, GW) and improving combinations was a fluffier way to make our frail elves powerful without giving them all unique and complicated abilities. The weapons section in particular has been given a complete overhaul. Points values are a difficult one to judge, since for a high elf a weapon boosting, say, no. of attacks or to-hit rolls is worth far less points-wise than the same weapon being wielded by a STR 5 black orc, even with our supposed discount. Hopefully we’ve found the right balance. You’ll also notice that ‘arcane’ is something high elves do well - lots of the best value items are to do with magic in some way (including resistance).

You’ll see that some new items have found their way into each section, some items have changed, some have gone and some others have been moved. To make the changes easier to spot I’ve listed all available items by type with the exception of banners (which all remain the same). Where items have no description other than points values (some of which have changed), they’re exactly the same as in the book.

Likewise the unit choices: if a unit or a unit’s stats/special rules aren’t mentioned below then it’s the same as in the book (eg Speed of Asuryan).

Finally, Game Rules. These are house rules we’ve always used and you’ll need to see them as context for the changes below - especially re. spears. You’ll find these at the top. A quick word re. ‘overlap’ rules: I heard somewhere that overlapping doesn’t happen in 7th, so units can’t surround and overwhelm lone characters? Don’t know if that’s true (we’ve always done it anyway), but if it is I reckon it’s bullcrap so I drafted some quick rules for that too.

Penultimately, I must stress that the whole maxim of this project has been to Keep It Simple: weird new abilities and special rules have been kept to an absolute minimum, except for the White Lions, which in my mind needed a bit more of a reason to exist.

As ever I'm really interested to hear your input so we've got a game system that other people than myself want to use, though please remember that this is a ‘good faith’ attempt at making High Elves more fluffy, not a practice in making them Daemon-beating. When you’re playing against regular opponents you might want to tweak their book a bit where you both agree it’s stupid (so, my mate’s goblins are much cheaper and get spears+shields for +1 point; his stegadons are now rare choices and so on…). For me that’s always been part of the hobby.

Finally: legal crap - anyone who wants to use these changes as their own ideas or make money from them (ahem GW ahem), please do so. Legal buffs among you will know that once an idea is in the public domain, it can’t be protected anyway. So go nuts. And take your time.

Regards,

Rando (aka Seredain).

GAME RULES

Special Characters: may only be taken with the agreement of both players.

Always Strikes First: now works in the usual way but with the following addition. Where two units in combat both have ASF and the same initiative, instead of arbitrarily rolling off to determine who goes first the abilities of each are said to cancel each other out. Chargers therefore strike first, great weapons strike last etc. May not make literal sense, but it’s a lot more fun than a game being swung by a 4+ roll-off.

Overlapping: is allowed when the unit has won the combat. One model may be moved round per point of combat resolution which is over and above the enemy’s total combat resolution. Note that this overlap move does not mean that the model may move further than it ordinarily could in one turn (ie if the overlapping takes place on the turn a unit charged, each model may not move more than it’s charge range in total).

Polearms: offer infantry formations their greatest hope of fending off cavalry charges. Just as the rider of a steed uses a spear point to focus the power of his charge into one deadly spot, so the spears of opposing infantry will do great damage when fast-charging steeds run onto their points!

Spears and pikes grant infantry units wielding them +1 strength when fighting in close combat against any cavalry unit, chariot, flyer or monster with at least M6 which has charged them in the front for that turn only.

The only exceptions to this rule are spears wielded by goblin or skaven units. Though their short stabbing spears allow these creatures to more effectively hurl themselves at the enemy, neither the weapons nor the wielders are well adapted to forming defensive formations against thundering cavalry!

Chariots: have remained popular for millennia because they combine the mobility of cavalry with the staying power of infantry. Chariot fighters are not hampered by a saddle but are free to move and pivot on their feet. This provides them with certain advantages which are unavailable to cavalry.

A model riding in a chariot will not count as mounted but will benefit from all missile and close combat weapons as if he were a single model on foot. The only exceptions to this rule are spears and lances which are treated as follows:

Chariots charge at speed so crews armed with spears will follow all the rules for spears exactly as if they were mounted. Crews or characters may not, however, be armed with mundane or magical lances. This is due to the fact that the model is not fixed securely into any kind of saddle: if he hit anything with a lance he would likely be flung from his chariot!

THE FORCES OF ULTHUAN - HOUSE RULES for 7th ED.

Units and unit choices remain as described in the High Elf Book with the following exceptions:

Characters:

Princes/Nobles: who wield spears on foot are leaders of the most successful of the many martial traditions of the Isle of Ulthuan. It is no exaggeration to say that the reforms of the great king Tethlis saved the elves from ultimate destruction and as a people they have perfected the art of spear-fighting to a degree beyond the capability of other races. It is no surprise therefore that several of Ulthuan’s greatest heroes consider the spear to be the noblest of weapons!

High Elf princes or nobles who are on foot and equipped with both a spear and a mundane or magical shield will gain +1 AS in close combat exactly as if they were wielding a normal hand weapon. Note that this bonus applies only when the character is fighting an enemy to his front.

Archmages/Mages: have an affinity with the arcane borne out of decades (more usually centuries), of practice combined with the harmonious teachings of the greatest known schools of magic. Perhaps above all other spell-casters they also take a particular (and usually competitive) joy in experimentation, enchanting their own artefacts and charms in readiness for future trials against both their enemies and each other! The most popular enchantments soon find their way into all sorts of items and, as a consequence, the towns and cities of the High Elves have perhaps the highest density of magical objects anywhere in the world.

High Elf mages may carry up to 2 arcane items instead of 1. If two items of a nominally similar type are taken (eg ‘staffs’), then one of Ulthuan’s mages is simply said to have crafted the same enchantment into a different item of your own choosing! Note that dispel scrolls and power stones may be carried in addition as per usual.

Dragon Armour: grants the wearer with a 3+ ward save against fire, flaming attacks and all breath weapons. Note that it will not benefit a monstrous mount should the wearer have one.

Dragons:

Sun dragons now have a fiery breath with Str 3. Moon Dragons have Str 4 breath and Star Dragons have Str 4 breath which additionally counts as armour piercing. Moon Dragons cost 10 points more. Sun and Star Dragons cost 20 points more.

Rare: The dragons of Ulthuan are the greatest of their kind but it has been millennia since they ruled as kings of the world. Now they are far reduced in number, and of those few the most ancient and powerful sleep through the long years, potentially with no thought of ever stirring again. Rousing them is an arduous task even for the greatest princes of Caledor.

In addition to taking up a hero slot, Star Dragons take up a rare unit choice.

Core Units:

Spearmen: cost 9 points and are equipped with Spears, Heavy Armour and Shields.

Archers: cost 11 points and are equipped with Longbows and Light Armour.
Shoot in 2 Ranks.

Seaguard: cost 13 points and are equipped with Spears, Bows, Heavy Armour and Shields.
Shoot in 2 Ranks.

Elven Veterans: There are those parts of Ulthuan which have suffered the ravages of war almost incessantly for the last thousand years. The long-lived citizens of such places, along with regular retinue troops and other large sections of Ulthuan’s stretched levy, find themselves at war as much as peace. Most, perhaps with little to return home to, have been fighting for decades and sometimes centuries. They are effectively fully-professional soldiers and, though they might wish for better times, they are surely a boon to their people- the finest fighters that the levy can field.

One unit of Spearmen or Seaguard may be upgraded to veterans for +1 point per model as a core choice. Veterans have WS 5. In addition, such is their training and centuries of experience in spear-fighting that Veterans fighting with spears and shields in close combat benefit from the +1 AS bonus normally gained by models fighting with hand weapons and shields. Note that as usual this bonus only applies when the unit is fighting an enemy to its front.

Further units of veterans may be taken but will not contribute to your army’s minimum core requirement.

Special Units:

Silver Helms: have WS 5 and cost 21 points per model. They ride elven steeds and are equipped with Lance, Heavy Armour and Shields. Steeds may be equipped with barding for +2 points per model. Silver Helms may carry a magic standard worth up to 25 points. One High Helm in the army may carry magic items worth up to 25 points.

Shadow Warriors: cost 16 points and are equipped with Longbows, Two Hand Weapons and Light Armour. Shadow-walkers have 2 attacks instead of BS 5.

Swordmasters: have initiative 6. Martial Artists: the swordmasters have spent their almost entire lives perfecting their skills with their chosen weapon. Wielding their great swords is as natural to them as breathing.

When fighting an enemy with the Always Strikes First special rule and the same Initiative, Swordmasters ignore the Strikes Last rule associated with wielding great weapons.

White Lions: Bodyguard: the White Lions have sworn a duty to protect their lord and master and in this duty they will never falter.

The White Lions gain +1 Leadership whenever the army general is with the unit.

Silver Helm Chariots: Instead of giving service in the contingents of heavy cavalry, many knights of Tiranoc follow the tradition of their forefathers, preferring to fight from strong chariots of wood and steel. These chariots are bladed, well-armoured and pulled by powerful barded steeds for maximum impact. The knights themselves wield great cutting swords and wear the finest armour their halls can provide. Indeed they consider themselves the true military elite of Tiranoc and love nothing more than to crash headlong into enemy formations and send them reeling!

Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariots cost 100 points. They are pulled by barded elven steeds and have movement 8, toughness 4, 4 wounds and AS 3+. They are armed with scythes. The crew have the same stats as Silver Helms, wear heavy armour and carry great swords.

Note that characters may choose to ride in silver helm chariots for +100 points. A character will displace one of the crew.

Also note that Tiranoc Chariots remain exactly as they are and are a separate unit.

Rare Units:

Dragon Princes: follow their existing rules but instead have STR 4 and cost 33 points. In addition, they have the Heroic Charge special rule. Note that the first unit taken will take up a single rare slot. Each subsequent unit will constitute not one but two rare unit choices.

Heroic Charge: These knights consider themselves the best of the martial elves: it is right that they should be the first to face the greatest dangers with their mighty lances!

During a charge against any enemy, a unit of Dragon Princes and any mounted character with them will be Immune to Psychology. If they successfully complete a charge the unit will remain Immune to Psychology for the duration of the turn.

Lion Chariots of Chrace: are the elite attacking arm of the Phoenix King’s guard. The beasts themselves are rare and exotic creatures even before they are trained for warfare, so these units are naturally hard to come by for most commanders. Those who successfully enlist the services of the famed White Lions, however, happily discover that most of their contingents include squadrons of these mighty weapons.

One Lion Chariot may be taken as a special unit choice for each unit of White Lions in the army.

MAGIC ITEMS

Magic Weapons

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

This huge yet beautiful sword was old even as the White Tower itself was first rising into the sky. A truly mighty weapon, it bestows upon those who are deemed worthy the fighting skill of the greatest of elf heroes.

This sword grants the wielder +2 Strength. All attacks made with this weapon will hit automatically.

Blade of Leaping Gold: - 60 points

Perhaps the most elegant weapon of the elves, this blade of ithilmar inlaid with sea gold is bound with powerful enchantments of speed and dexterity. A skilled warrior can swing this sword so quickly that its razor edge hums as it scythes through the air.

The bearer gains +3 attacks in close combat. In addition all attacks made with this weapon gain +1 to hit and are armour piercing.

Bow of the Seafarer: - 60 points

Blade of Sea Gold: - 50 points

Grants the wielder +1 strength. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by this weapon.

Star Lance: - 40 points

White Sword: - 40 points

Reaver Bow: - 40 points

Foe Bane: - 40 points

Forged during Aenarion’s war against the daemons, the black steel of this blade glows with ancient runes of raging red fire. Some say that the sword fills its wielder with a desire for glory never to be sated, for it was made to conquer the greatest and darkest of foes. Certainly it has lead many great heroes to an untimely death.

Attacks with this sword are made with +1 strength and are flaming attacks. In addition, attacks with this sword against models of unit strength 3 or greater, or any daemon, will wound on a roll of 2+. Note that in this instance the bearer will still count as having +1 strength for the purposes of modifying armour saves.

Spear of the Noble Sentinel: - 35 points

A tall spear of black wood and ithilmar once given by Tethlis to the commander of his first citizen levies, this weapon breathes into its wielder all the arts of perfect spear-fighting. Followers of this hero are expected to pay close attention!

Model on foot only. Follows all the rules for spears. In addition the wielder may re-roll failed hits and wounds in close combat. Attacks from this weapon are armour piercing.

Balanced Blade: - 25 points

The weaponsmiths of the greatest elven halls are rightly famed across the world for crafting the finest duelling swords known. Those nobles who see war as a true art-form have often gained notoriety by sacrificing countless treasures to possess one of these blades!

Model on foot only. The bearer’s attacks gain +1 to hit in close combat. Attacks made against the bearer in close combat suffer -1 to hit. If equipped with a mundane or magical shield, the bearer gains +1 AS exactly as if he were fighting with a normal hand weapon and shield.

Magic Armour

Golden Crown: - 45 points

Once worn by the lord of a far-flung city of the lost empire, the survival of this helm is truly miraculous. Indeed it must surely contain a holy blessing of fortune, for it is said to grant the wearer with the power to cheat death itself!

Grants the wearer a 6+ save and MR (1). In addition the effects of the first wound received by the wearer are ignored completely. Other wounds received that turn and subsequently are resolved as normal.

Armour of Protection: - 40 points

This fine suit of armour, woven with powerful prayers of protection, will see its wearer through the greatest trials so long as he has faith in the gods.

Heavy Armour. Grants the character a 4+ Ward Save.

Shadow Armour: - 40 points

Character on foot only. Light Armour. The Character may scout. In addition all ranged and close combat attacks against the bearer suffer -1 to hit.

Temekador’s Gauntlets: - 35 points

Provides a 6+ save which may be combine with other equipment as normal. In addition the gauntlets grant the wearer a ward save of 5+.

Golden Shield: - 30 points

Shield. Provides a 5+ save which may be combined with other equipment as normal. Attacks made against the bearer in close combat suffer a -1 to hit penalty.

Dragonscale Shield: - 25 points

The cursed skin of a black dragon, slain at the hands of a mighty elf hero, is stretched over a circle of beaten bronze. The death screams of the beast emanate from this hide to fill the minds of all monsters who gaze upon it, threatening to drive them mad in terror of the noble elf who now bears this shield.

Provides a 5+ save which may be combined with other equipment as normal. In addition, enemy monsters in base contact must test on their own leadership before allocating attacks against the bearer. Enemy dragons test on half their leadership, rounding up. If the test is failed the monster may not attack at all that turn. Note that no monster may use its rider’s leadership for the purpose of taking of this test.

Helm of Fortune: - 25 points

Armour of Caledor: - 25 points

Captain’s Helm: - 10 points

Often worn by infantry commanders of the war-ravaged coasts of northern Ulthuan, this simple plumed helm was long ago enchanted to pass on each leader’s military acumen to his successor.

When fighting as part of a High Elf infantry unit the wearer will generate +1 combat resolution in the same way as if he were carrying a standard. Note that this bonus is in addition to any other bonuses granted by unit or battle standards.

Waystone Shield: - 10 points

Simple shields such as this, bound in silver, are often bestowed as gifts by the Everqueen to those champions who have truly dedicated themselves to defending their land against the corruption of Chaos.

Shield. Provides a 6+ save which may be combined with other equipment as normal. In addition the bearer of this shield has MR (1).

Talismans

Vambraces of Defence: - 55 points

Loremaster’s Cloak: - 40 points

Talisman of Saphery: - 35 points

Sacred Incense: - 25 points

Guardian Pheonix: - 25 points

Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

The bearer has MR (1). In addition the bearer and the unit he is with gain a 4+ ward save against fire and flaming attacks.

Cloak of Aethis: - 15 points

A beautiful garment of blood red cloth woven with threads of gold, this cloak was made in honour of the gentlest of Pheonix Kings to protect its wearer from the blackest of betrayals.

The character wearing this cloak is immune to the effects of all poisons and the Killing Blow special rule. Note that only the character benefits, not his mount should he have one.

Arcane Items

Book of Hoeth: - 100 points

Vortex Shard: - 75 points

Sigil of Asuryan: - 40 points

Starwood Staff: - 40 points

Annullian Crystal: - 35 points

Trickster’s Pendant: - 35 points

Seerstaff of Saphery: - 30 points

Staff of High Magic: - 30 points

Staffs such as this, of gleaming white wood, are awarded as gifts by the High Loremaster to the most talented graduates of the White Tower. Whichever route is taken by the bearer of this staff, he will always remember where the path of true magic lies.

The mage knows the Drain Magic spell regardless of which lore he chooses and in addition to his other spells. Furthermore, once per magic phase, he may elect to use the power of the staff to cast Drain Magic as a bound spell (power level 3). After this roll a D6. On a roll of 1 the bound spell is temporarily exhausted and may not be used for the rest of the battle.

Staff of Solidity: - 20 points

Circlet of Clarity: - 15 points

This simple but powerful artefact stores a magical echo of the mage’s favourite spells, making them much easier to recall even amidst the din and chaos of battle.

The mage may choose one spell from those he has selected at the start of the game. All attempts made by this mage to cast the chosen spell benefit from a casting bonus of +1.

Jewel of the Dusk: - 15 points

Jewel of the Dawn: - 15 points

This pale sapphire, as clear as water, adds a wonderful dexterity to the mage’s manipulation of the winds of magic.

The mage bearing this jewel generates one additional dispel dice during each enemy magic phase.

Silver Wand: - 10 points

Enchanted Items

Null Stone: - 100 points

The bearer has MR (2). Magic and daemonic items/icons within 6” of the bearer will not work. Wizards within 6” of the bearer may not cast spells. Daemons within 6" of the bearer will lose their daemonic ward saves.

Forlaith’s Robe: - 45 points

Bracers of Asarbel - 40 points

The Chracian lord Asarbel commanded the great Northern Armies during the first Battle of the Dead Isle. It is said that he feared nothing in all the world except that Ulthuan should fall, and countless daemons fell under his great axe before he was finally overwhelmed. Whoever now wears these bracers would happily follow him unto death in defence of the Blessed Isle.

The wearer of these bracers is immune to psychology. In addition, when wielding a great weapon in close combat, the wearer's attacks will inflict not one but D3 wounds.

Ring of Fury: - 40 points

Radiant Gem of Hoeth: - 35 points

Ring of Corin: - 30 points

Bound Spell (power level 4). This ring contains the spell Vaul’s Unmaking. After each use roll a D6. On a roll of 1 or 2 the power of the ring is temporarily exhausted and it may not be used for the rest of the battle.

Orb of Stars: - 30 points

This small ball of polished black crystal contains a thousand points of light, each one promising the bearer another chance to avoid the doom that marches inexorably towards him.

Model on foot only. If the bearer suffers a wound the orb flashes with blinding white light and transports him to another point on the battlefield, 3d6” in a random direction as determined by rolling the scatter dice. Resolve all effects of the wound received before moving the model.

Skeinsliver: - 25 points

Blessed Tome: - 25 points

One of the many beautiful books recording the deeds of elven heroes past. The singing of these glorious tales inspires every elf who hears them to new heights of valour.

Grants the bearer and all friendly units within 6” with +1 leadership up to a maximum of 10.

Dragon Horn: - 25 points

Amulet of Light: - 15 points

All hits caused by the bearer and the unit he is with, in combat or with ranged weapons, will count as being caused by Magical Attacks.

Ring of Lileath: - 10 points

This ring has been reclaimed from the hand of a fallen hero so often that some elves whisper that it is cursed. The wisest will not tolerate such talk, but claim it to be a gift from the Goddess herself, that she will always guide it to those places where it is needed most.

Bound Spell, power level 6. This ring contains the spell Shield of Saphery. One use only.

Gem of Courage: - 10 points

Talisman of Loec: - 10 points

FIN

EDIT: Some editing done to fix typos and stylistic things. No doubt I'll find more spelling mistakes later...

EDIT: Lots more - some little and some a bit bigger - please see successive posts.

Arellion Sapher · #2 Post by **Arellion Sapher** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:55 am

Some of the special rules connected with the White Lions are exceptionally complex and unnecessary. The +1 Ld for the Army General is enough.

I don't know why you did what you did with the Tiranoc Chariots. That seemed unnecessary, unless you think that the crew are too ineffective on the charge.

Dragons should be left as they are. Beardiness aside, The High Elves have Dragons - they're the oldest allies of the Elven race. Sure, people over-use them, but those people are rubbish and playing against them is a misery under any circumstances. Leave Dragons alone.

However, I like what you've done to compartmentalise regional troops. The Lion Chariot/White Lion link is much appreciated. It's this kind of thing you can focus on. I also liked the two hand weapons on the Shadow Warriors. This type of reform and these kind of tweaks are what genuinely changes the list for the better.

I'll be honest, if you've playtested this and it works, fine. But I wouldn't publish it. HE as it stands is a powerful list, it is only in difficulties when facing the Big Three (Four if the reports of the new Skaven are true). It just seems like as well as powering up the infantry, you have created more work for rules lawyers. Some of the combos offered in the Heroes list are an additional kind of complexity that we don't need.

Seredain · #3 Post by **Seredain** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:49 am

Thanks for the input - there's one thing I should quickly clear up with the chariots: tiranocs are still there and exactly the same. The heavy chariots are a new unit. Basically, any unit that I didn't touch I didn't mention (you won't find pheonix guard there either), and for any changes I made to existing units, I only mentioned the changes, not the whole unit description (just to save time and space). It's only in the items list (excepting banners) where I've mentioned everything available in order to be comprehensive.

You may be right on the white lions rule - that's new and not playtested yet (except for the general's bonus). Might be a bit much.

Any thoughts on the items?

As for dragons, they're still there in a big way - all have better breath weapons and only cost a little more: the rare choice on the star dragon is there so if you take it, you make some sort of commitment. The moon is basically redundant otherwise. I'm not trying to get rid of star dragons, just to make people's unit choices less obvious then they are currently. Same goes for DP's: they're actually more powerful, but taking them involves an investment of a rare slot: makes taking our amazing units less of a no-brainer and gives more of a role to our 'core' and 'core special' units who've received a relative boost.

The aim here is not to boost the 'power' of our best list nor to kill of our good units, just to create a greater variety of viable lists to make our choices more difficult, interesting and fluffy.

EDIT: Edited OP to specify that Tiranoc Chariots are a separate unit.

Seredain · #4 Post by **Seredain** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:27 pm

Oh come on Ulth-uan, you got me questioni-i-ing,

Where is the love? Woh

Where is the love, where is the love,

Where is the lo-o-o-ove...

My good people, with your feedback and my good looks, there's nothing we can't achieve. I'm especially keen to settle the new item selection: the new chariot people can take or leave, the overlapping thing I don' really care about and the core adjustments to spears, silver helms etc are in the same vein as the thoughts loads of us have had in recent months.

But what about the items? Hit me!

P.S. I've had a look at the white lions in response to comments above and happily scrapped everything but the +1 leadership when the general is with them' rule. That's fluffy and cool but the rest was just unecessary.

Sarin, Annulian Reaver · Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:00 am

Well, I really liked the way you tried to make the HE "more fluffy" (to take your own words) so I decided to stop lurking and give you my opinion on your work.

First of all, it's my opinion that you're the first who put the finger on what is the major problem/annoyance of the magic item section: the effects of some items just don't match with their type. Moving some of them to other categories is, I suppose, what gave you the room to create other weapons, talismans, etc., which all have the potential to be put to good use (or in some cases to be used, period).

Regarding the troops, the core section is now nothing to be shy of : giving heavy armor to the spears in combinaison to the general rule on polearms vs. cavalry and the possibility to promote them to veterans makes them worthy of their reputation (well, the reputation they have in the army book anyway...) We can hope to see more seaguard around since they are no longer "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" as I've often read around here. I see potential competition between them and the archers, but the greater range of the latest should play on their favor should someone want support troops at relatively low cost.

About cost...

This may be more apparent in the special section since they were already good, but you seemed to have given better equipment and some new options/rules to about every troop choice without adjusting their cost consequently. For example, you doubled the HtH damage potential of the Shadow Warriors and they still cost 16 pts. I can understand that the archers never killed back their points, but giving HA, shoot on two ranks AND +1 str vs. cavalry to the Seaguard and they're still worth 13 points? What about mages that can take two arcane items? Not that I am against the idea. But shouldn't we give something in return to preserve the balance?

Don't get me wrong, you did a great work here. And if, as you said, it seemed balanced when you playtested it, well, congrats! I just hope that the other less fortunate armies (those who haven't had the luck of getting a new armybook recently) are of the same opinion.

Seredain · #6 Post by **Seredain** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:31 pm

Sarin,

It’s great to have your views and thanks very much for the way you’ve articulated them. I’m grateful for the nice comments and welcome the queries: certainly your questions over ‘cost’ have to be addressed since the dullest revisions are always those where the guy just makes his army better in every way without looking at cost! That obviously wasn’t the intention here.

We thought very hard about what changes to make, going through different drafts and facing off against a variety of different enemy armies which we also amended to boost the worst bits and nerf the silly uber things (special stegs, Black Dragon hatred, DE Hydra ignoring terrain etc etc).

We did a lot of tests with my mate’s Orcs especially: in the round his infantry got cheaper, my infantry and arcane abilities got better while my ability to take all the killer units at once (LC, DP’s, RBT’s, Star Drag), got trimmed. More details at the bottom on this.

In all it was quite a lengthy process but let me explain why we made the decisions we did.

Spears in Warhammer

I’ll deal with spears first. The problem with spears is that they cost a point where hand weapons are free, but the extra +1 AS hand weapons get from shields typically makes them better for their points. This is equally true against cavalry and, realistically, it shouldn’t be. The spears have been given a ‘free upgrade’ here just so they’re better against cavalry as they should be. Basically it creates a ‘paper/scissors/stone’ situation for infantry: if you want to defend against cavalry then the spears are definitely worth it, but against other infantry in most armies you’d usually rather have the free HW + Shield bonus and spend the points elsewhere.

It’s also important to emphasise that almost all armies can take spearmen: I use a lot of cavalry so my mate’s orc spears benefit particularly. More especially my silver helms do not want to be charging his Saurus blocks front on! Game-wise we found that the change effectively works out as more of a nerf for cavalry than as a boost for infantry. This is ok - cavalry dominate at the moment and should want to think twice before charging a block of spears in the front.

Army List

Core

As above, the aim here is to make units effective for the points they already cost, not to ‘boost them for free’. For the High Elf core units, being good for their points is also part of the fluff of long-life combined with discipline and rigorous training. It is also frankly the best way to encourage core-heavy armies and make them fun to play.

We had a very good think about how to price Seaguard (having had no problems with the archers or spears). The reason we didn’t make them 14 points were threefold.

1: this wouldn’t reflect the difference in capability between them and our special infantry or the elites of other armies.

2: you never get to use all of those 13 points at the same time- spears are better for combat because they’re cheaper and for shooting archers are cheaper and have the range advantage.

3: Seaguard are perhaps the High Elfiest core unit - all about organisation and tactical flexibility which are things the High Elves should do best. If they came off as a bit of a bargain (I think they’re about right here with normal bows), we were cool with that since they’re very unique and hopefully this would encourage people to take larger units, as they’re probably meant to. Incidentally this was also the thinking behind ‘veterans’: and as it happens veteran seaguard are totally bad ass and one of my favourite units!

Special Infantry

As it stands dragon princes run our specials show since they’re awesome in combat and obviously very fast. They also have other bonuses vs, say, swordmasters since they’re immune to fire and have LD 9, not to mention ASF at I 6. We addressed this primarily by making them a rare choice (with heroic STR 4, mind you), as part of a wider army-theme: Infantry are core, Cavalry and Elite Infantry are special, Beasts/Machines and Elite Cavalry are rare.

There are 2 reasons we slightly modified Swordmasters and White Lions for free.

1: Again they were strictly fluff based- SM’s will likely hit anything first that isn’t a character or assassin (also note slight changes to ASF rule, above): they should not be slower than Dragon Princes, or indeed anyone who isn't heroic or an unnatural monstrosity. Don't get into a fight with them - they're literally sword-masters. Run them over or shoot them.

White Lions are now particularly good if you use them to guard your general since their whole reason to exist is that they fight to the death to protect their Lord. Originally we just gave them LD9 but considered this OTT: we feel the new rule strikes a good balance.

2: Re. White Lions we liked the change also because it makes army choice more interesting. Very few people field their prince with the professional bodyguard. Now it’s a little more tempting along with the item changes, which create more possibilities for decent infantry princes. If they don’t choose to field him there then White Lions get no bonus and stay the same for the same points. Obviously the prince can only be in one place so other units of white lions won't get any bonus either.

Edit: We toyed with the idea of allowing them to bodyguard any character, but never tested it and, as was pointed out above, this was overly complicated. The idea's been dropped now.

3:The changes are very slight and we found that, against most opponents, they had no effect on the game whatsoever: certainly neither change was worth a whole point all by itself (only +1 Initiative and a very situational +1 LD). For 16 points we’d have to think of other rules/stat boosts and the one good lesson we’ve learned from 7th Edition High Elves is to keep things simple.

Silver Helms

As a WS 5 unit they’re still only worth 23 points. 4 reasons for this:

1: Against most core infantry the change makes no difference.

2: Against core WS 4 infantry (empire swordsmen a classic example), SH’s were pretty useless and not worth 23 points even on the charge unless used in overwhelming numbers - this seemed silly since they’re meant to be special choice nobility!

3: ‘Skill’ is something High Elves should do well: they’re only Str 3, but they’re likely to hit you.

4: Moving the Dragon Princes to Rare left a ‘WS 5 Cavalry’ vacuum. In order to make Silver Helms relevant we either had to move them to core (which would have made a potentially more powerful list but been less fluffy), make them WS 5, or somehow extend the ‘Veterans’ rule to Silver Helms. The latter was deemed too complicated and we also thought ‘veteran’ status, in High Elf World, should be a spear thing. Making barding optional was amazing but made Reavers pretty redundant. It was also possibly overpowered. So, we went for WS 5.

There’s one other thing: the real boost to Helms here is the fact that they can take banners and items. Note however that since 6th edition the cost of SH command groups went up considerably, so they’ve effectively paid for this ability already in 7th without getting to take advantage of it.

Shadow Warriors

If you believe the rumour mill (and I can), Shadow Warriors were initially meant to have 2 hand weapons in the first place, but the models didn’t so the idea was pulled. For 16 points though, 2 str 3 attacks from something with T 3 and a 6+ AS (remember when they had shields?), is totally fair. As it stands, against eagles they simply aren’t worth it without either BS 5, shields or the extra hand weapon. We thought the extra hand weapon was fluffier. Basically we called them Elite High Elf Infantry, so 15 points, and paid +1 for the extra hand weapon.

Also, competition against eagles was made more fierce since there are now 4 rare units to choose from, so hopefully shadow warriors are now simply more ‘relevant’ rather than overpowered.

Mages

The change to our magic users reflects the fact that, as things stand, HE mages are already very expensive for what they do and their abilities don’t really reflect the ‘masters of magic’ fluff: +1 to dispel is pretty small beer. We wanted to sort this out without making new special rules. We did think about making ‘levelling up’ cheaper to reflect HE learning skill, but this seemed a bit crooked. So, instead, we chose to boost arcane item selection. Reasons:

1: HE mages got the chance to be better than others in a particular way that wasn’t about having more power (hence no return to ‘Chaneller’ honours etc). It’s generally quite fluffy: High Elves don’t get a ‘Gateway’ type destructive spell (increasingly common), or silly amounts of power dice, but they should get the chance to be cleverer for their considerable points.

2: It fits perfectly with the wider theme of High Elf magic - selection ability (Seerstaff, Silver Wand, Colleges of Magic). Arcane is something High Elves should do well.

3: Technically you don’t get anything for free: the joy of this bonus is that it can make our mages more effective but you still always have to pay for whatever you take.

Edit: Having built a few army lists with these rules already, I can also give you a good point number 4: a lot of the time you simply won't use this ability except on your archmage. Since your lvl 2's will likely be taking a scroll, only one 30 point item will take them up to their items limit. Watch out for those 15 point items, though: a couple of those plus a scroll are pretty tasty...

Changes to Other Armies

All changes we made to fluff up High Elves were in the context of changes we were also making to the other army lists we use.

As I mentioned, basically these armies were also nerfed or boosted where they looked stupid, and my mate's O&G’s received lots of cool boosts. Some units became cheaper (esp. Gobbos who also got Spears and Shields as a combined +1 pt upgrade), Animosity was made friendlier, a new unit was added (Black Orc Boar Boyz - rare choice, 1 unit counts as special choice if Black Orc is general), and we made some tweaks to their magic item choices.

As you accurately pointed out, the older books need their own changes to have a chance against High Elves and (especially) the newer books. As you can see, we've so far focussed on Orcs (still a work in progress), and we’ve had some great games: fewer monsters (I don’t take any), more infantry units, good times.

We've also done a bit of work on Dark Elves and Lizardmen, mostly around making monsters more reasonable but also with some magic item nerfs (guess which ones?

) and a few other bits and bobs (of course both armies benefit from the new spears).

Thanks for reading!

EDIT: Edited the 'Mage' section a little to explain better. Twice.

tiekwando2 · #7 Post by **tiekwando2** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:48 pm

Hmm a nasty infantry killer would be blade of sea gold, loec, helm of fortune, b horse, DA, shield. kills 4-5 saurus with hand weapons in a single round. 5 if using spears and gives 1+ re-rollable save so saurus wont be hurting him can almost take on a unit by himself, let alone on a dragon with AOC. I think that giving sea gold armor piercing and +1 to hit might be too much for 60 points.

why decrease the cost of Radiant Gem by 10?

I love most of the other items and like the variety you have given the army. I like the ability to take more bounds, but worry that it could put us over the top (4 bounds, 3 can be used multiple times makes for a lot of DD needed, especially with BOS 2 lvl 2s and an archmage)
I would go with
Archmage lvl 4 RoF, Silverwand, Staff of High Magic, Scroll
Mage lvl 2 Seerstaff, Circle of Clarity
Mage lvl 2 Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk
Maybe noble with Radiant Gem, Captain's Helm, DA, GW (bears anger)

Random SM/DP champ with ring of Lileath/BOS

its a huge amount on magic but gives me 13-15 pd, 1 lvl 4 bound (reusable) 2 lvl 3 bounds (reusable, one 3 times), and a lvl 6 bound (once) also i have +1 to cast on one spell of my choosing from any lore. Means after turn one with 3 scrolls and 5 dd, you are out of scrolls and need to save a minimum of 4 dd for stopping my bounds (unless you dont mind drain magic going through then minimum of 2 probably 4) and probably should save 6. Which means i should have a lot of spells going through and a chance one of my bound will get through as well. Drain magic works against caddies as well because it increases the casting value of RiP spells so that bears anger is now 7, and if you got off Flames of the Phoenix its now 14 to dispel.

Amulet of Fire i think became too good for a champ to take, make it MR(1) and unit is immune to flaming (otherwise why take arcane banner) Also it effectively allows 3 HE units to be, relatively, cheaply immune to magic. Caradryan in PG/SM, Arcane Banner in another and Amulet of Fire on a 3rd. Give another unit champ Waystone Shield and you can pretty much protect the entire army (except RBTs/Archers) from magic for cheap. Take a mage maybe with annullian crystal and jewel of dawn, 5 dd and lots of MR running around.

Now that i have done my complaining I will mention that I absolutely love the synergy between things, I really enjoy the magic items. My favorites are Staff of High Magic (though it may be under priced), return of Blessed Tome, fixing Ring of Corin (though may be simpler to run out on roll of 1 or 2 that way you don't have to track charges left), Ring of Lileath is great for SM, Circlet of Clarity with Seerstaff combo. And Jewel of Dawn, Anullian Crystal Combo as proper alternative to 2x scrolls (right now anullian just is not as good 80% of the time). Making magic weapons i might actually want to take.

anyways those are my thoughts on the magic items, overall i really like them a lot and they have a lot of new synergy.

*ps if you have the time can you PM me the changes for O&G my friend plays O&G and i play HE and would like to test the two lists out at some point

Seredain · #8 Post by **Seredain** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:20 pm

Tiekwando!

Really great input buddy, thanks very much. The big problem with a revision like this is that playtesting it with only two people has been a lenghty process! Inevitably we've missed some things so it's great to be able to bounce ideas off other people - which is what this forum is all about.

I think the magic phase is the big issue here but let me first answer some of your other points:

tiekwando2 wrote:Hmm a nasty infantry killer would be blade of sea gold, loec, helm of fortune, b horse, DA, shield. kills 4-5 saurus with hand weapons in a single round. 5 if using spears and gives 1+ re-rollable save so saurus wont be hurting him can almost take on a unit by himself, let alone on a dragon with AOC. I think that giving sea gold armor piercing and +1 to hit might be too much for 60 points.

Are you maybe getting the 2 ‘gold’ weapons mixed together? On average Blade of Leaping Gold (60 pts, +3 att, +1 to hit, -1 AS), actually kills only 2 HW saurus (AS 3+) per turn, about 3.5 if you pop loec. Since you’ve spent 70 points and a wound that doesn’t seem OTT. A character with this sword will obviously rape low toughness-low/medium armour troops (but then against them you might just want to use a great weapon and save the points…), but he’ll still struggle against heavy armour, toughness and characters - just not quite as much as with the old item, which was useless. I reckon it'll still be a niche choice.

You’re right it seems like a lot of bonuses to have with one weapon, but the truth is that its effectiveness when wielded by a str 4, att 4 elf is more limited than if it were wielded by a Black Orc or Chaos lord (when it would obviously be totally broken). Likewise although we’d have to pay 25pts for a Sword of Striking, we wouldn’t want to because, for us, it’s totally rubbish. With magic weapons the cost needs to match the weapon’s effect when wielded rather than the bonuses it bestows.

This isn't a great weapon for dragon riders btw - they won't be able to wound other monsters and won't have enough defence to stay alive. If you want an aggressive dragon rider you're better off with the Star Lance, though Blade of Hoeth is also worth considering if you're feeling lucky. Foe Bane too, perhaps.

Blade of Sea Gold (50 pts, +1 Str, no AS), is perfect for fighting high toughness high armour troops like Saurus: on average you’ll also kill 2 a turn with it but if you pop loec you’ll probably get 4 that round. Less destructive potential vs weaker units, though.

tiekwando2 wrote:why decrease the cost of Radiant Gem by 10?

Good question. We had a couple of reasons for this: 1: It now exactly matches the cost of a level upgrade for our mages, only it's a level upgrade from 0 to 1! The fact the character can wear armour we simply let slide since it's a 'one character only' bonus and a very High Elven one.

2: It makes it more useful when it comes to item combinations when the old item’s cost was somewhat prohibitive - especially for princes. Hopefully we’ll now see fewer Tanks and more Mage-Knight princes - we'd like to encourage more Helfy characters. Incidentally it also encourages magic fans to take a combat character rather than just another mage. Try Balanced Blade, Golden Shield and the Radiant Gem on an infantry prince.

tiekwando2 wrote:Amulet of Fire i think became too good for a champ to take, make it MR(1) and unit is immune to flaming (otherwise why take arcane banner) Also it effectively allows 3 HE units to be, relatively, cheaply immune to magic. Caradryan in PG/SM, Arcane Banner in another and Amulet of Fire on a 3rd. Give another unit champ Waystone Shield and you can pretty much protect the entire army (except RBTs/Archers) from magic for cheap. Take a mage maybe with annullian crystal and jewel of dawn, 5 dd and lots of MR running around.

You make a great point here, especially with our new more powerful magic phase. I’ve to’d and fro’d on Amulet of Fire quite a bit because at the moment it’s just pants. Let’s drop it to 20 points, MR(1), unit immune to fire - probably what it should have been in the first place. Haven’t used it yet but it should be a good item to have on the Silver Helms.

NOTE: I forgot to mention: part of our reforms is the exclusion of special characters without prior consent from both players - so Caradryan’s out in a normal list (OP edited to reflect this). Also remember that the Waystone Shield can only be taken by characters or cavalry champs - our infantry elites can’t take shields- so it’s actually very hard to fit in all the magic res you’re talking about and take anything else you’d really like at all! I still think you're right about the amulet though. OP edited.

tiekwando2 wrote:I love most of the other items and like the variety you have given the army. I like the ability to take more bounds, but worry that it could put us over the top (4 bounds, 3 can be used multiple times makes for a lot of DD needed, especially with BOS 2 lvl 2s and an archmage)
I would go with
Archmage lvl 4 RoF, Silverwand, Staff of High Magic, Scroll
Mage lvl 2 Seerstaff, Circle of Clarity
Mage lvl 2 Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk
Maybe noble with Radiant Gem, Captain's Helm, DA, GW (bears anger)

Random SM/DP champ with ring of Lileath/BOS

its a huge amount on magic but gives me 13-15 pd, 1 lvl 4 bound (reusable) 2 lvl 3 bounds (reusable, one 3 times), and a lvl 6 bound (once) also i have +1 to cast on one spell of my choosing from any lore. Means after turn one with 3 scrolls and 5 dd, you are out of scrolls and need to save a minimum of 4 dd for stopping my bounds (unless you dont mind drain magic going through then minimum of 2 probably 4) and probably should save 6. Which means i should have a lot of spells going through and a chance one of my bound will get through as well. Drain magic works against caddies as well because it increases the casting value of RiP spells so that bears anger is now 7, and if you got off Flames of the Phoenix its now 14 to dispel.

I’m glad you raised this.

The problem with all the item changes is that two people can only playtest so much! Hmm… I’m not so sure this magic dominance is such a bad thing… you realise that with BoS you’ve spent 795 points on the magic phase alone?!? I haven’t taken a phase that heavy in any of the trial runs: it’s a lot of investment and you’ll likely be looking at some miscasts. What if your archmage miscasts once or twice? You might be better off considering Staff of Solidity which will protect your investment but also lose you a bound spell.

Hmm… I think that, if the Elves of Ulthuan bring the full magic show, it frankly ought to be terrifying. We’re never entirely going to remove the need for comp scores in any list and I think that VC and Dark Elves can still bring many more power dice than this one. DO you think it's too much? How would you fix it? Shoving a power level 3 and an 'exhausted on a 1' limit to the Drain Magic bound might be a start?

It’s definitely worth a look as I don’t want to encourage broken armies and could do with a little help. Having said that, the possibility to bring intimidating amounts of magic ought to be open to the High Elves since when it comes to the Arcane, they're the Boys. I'd never go that far myself, though. I mean technically you could still bring an almost all-cav Star Dragon list with this revision as you can with the current book (though here you'd lose out on eagles and repeaters if you took the dragon and 3 units of DP's), but people might hate you!

If you have any specific thoughts on the magic phase then please chime in. Would you have enough of an army to go with that phase? Maybe build a 2250 list around that character selection- with minimum core you’re looking at 1040 points for 2 units of 10 archers, the 3 casters and a Radiant Gem BsB with Captain’s Helm. That’s only 1210 left to spend…

tiekwando2 wrote:*ps if you have the time can you PM me the changes for O&G my friend plays O&G and i play HE and would like to test the two lists out at some point

I'd love to. It might take quite a while though: the O&G changes are still a work in progress and I've left the O&G book and all the written details at my mate's house in Weston (I'm in Bristol), so I can't get my hands on them until I head over there next. Not sure when that'll be, but as soon as I get there I'll forward you what we've done so far. It'd be good to have some further constructive criticism!

tiekwando2 · #9 Post by **tiekwando2** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:59 pm

Seredain wrote:Are you maybe getting the 2 ‘gold’ weapons mixed together? On average Blade of Leaping Gold (60 pts, +3 att, +1 to hit, -1 AS), actually kills only 2 HW saurus (AS 3+) per turn, about 3.5 if you pop loec. Since you’ve spent 70 points and a wound that doesn’t seem OTT. A character with this sword will obviously rape low toughness-low/medium armour troops (but then against them you might just want to use a great weapon and save the points…), but he’ll still struggle against heavy armour, toughness and characters - just not quite as much as with the old item, which was useless. I reckon it'll still be a niche choice.

not that it matters much but realized i made him s5 instead of just AP in my math, makes a big difference wounding 2/3 of the time compared to 1/2... woops lol.

Seredain wrote:Good question. We had a couple of reasons for this: 1: It now exactly matches the cost of a level upgrade for our mages for exactly the same boost to our magic phase - +1 PD, +1 DD +1 spell. The fact the character can wear armour we simply let slide since it's a 'one character only' bonus and a very High Elven one.

2: It makes it more useful when it comes to item combinations when the old item’s cost was somewhat prohibitive - especially for princes. Hopefully we’ll now see fewer Tanks and more Mage-Knight princes - we'd like to encourage more Helfy characters. Incidentally it also encourages magic fans to take a combat character rather than just another mage. Try Balanced Blade, Golden Shield and the Radiant Gem on an infantry prince.

I like the fact that it is less points, and it does allow for some more combinations (including for nobles). Hmm i like the prince, 6 or 7 to hit (can you seven to hit in CC like in shooting?) 3+ save, casting fireballs/shield of saphery/maybe healing himself (lore of light version)

Magic, I might go without staff of solidity because, well thats what i do now a days if i use an archmage, only difference was the drain magic bound for a scroll.

Lets see if i was actually to make a list that tried to max magic probably would include:
Archmage lvl 4, Sliverwand, Staff of High Magic, Ring of Fury, Scroll 350
Mage lvl 2, Seerstaff, Circlet of Clarity 180
Mage lvl 2, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk 180
Noble, R Gem, Captain's Helm, GW, DA, Shield, BSB 169

Core:
10 Archers 110
10 Archers 110

Special:
14 SM Champ 222
14 SM 210
15 PG Champ, BOS 299

Rare:
5 DPs 165
Eagle 50
2 RBTs 200

Sorry took my 2000 point list and mucked with it a bit not optimal but a list. Really dependent on Magic to kill, but has some bite when they get close.
I can probably (on first turn) destroy a magic item with all my bounds if i use them last and Ring of Corin last of all (lots of low casting spells first turn, want to draw out scrolls and not miscast). Again normally drain magic at end of phase to make any remain in play spells better and not hurt my own casting attempts. Bears anger on the Noble to make him 6 s6 attacks and t4, 4+ save asf. Again even with 2 dice saved for drain, and 1 on each of the other two bounds, i have a 1/3 chance that they fail, so every 2 turns one should get through of the two of them. They probably dont have the dice to dispel much after that and scrolls will be sucked up in turn 1/2. Also my defense is 7dd + scroll, and i might have drain magic.

To be honest although it is brutal, it is hardly tzeentch with kairos, or DE with lvl 4, 2 lvl 2s. Even slaan and 3 EOGs would be similar if not worse, although EOGs have to take Heavens (plus hard to kill those EOGs). So its not as bad as i originally thought.

Probably a better list would be based on archmage as kitted, and seerstaff, scroll/circlet (i still love the synergy), BOS and noble with Ring of Corin, Bsb, Captain's either on horse or on foot. Similar to current magic phase builds, but gives 2 extra bounds and maybe +1 to your needed spell at the cost of some scrolls and the points for the noble, but he is useful giving +2 to infantry (PG probably). Gives a strong magic phase and a BSB for 760 points, 3 bounds 9-11 pd.

ways to fix, not sure, its actually not as bad as i first thought, though like i said i would rather Corin become drained on 1,2 so i dont have to count (i loose marker dice a lot and it reminds my opponent i have it)
Staff of High Magic, lvl 3 is a good start (only need 1 dice to dispel) and might be enough, it is somewhat situational whether its useful but still useful in most situations especially if you plan on having a RiP spell go off.

Seredain · #10 Post by **Seredain** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:30 pm

tiekwando2 wrote:I like the fact that it is less points, and it does allow for some more combinations (including for nobles). Hmm i like the prince, 6 or 7 to hit (can you seven to hit in CC like in shooting?) 3+ save, casting fireballs/shield of saphery/maybe healing himself (lore of light version).

This prince is awesome for tying up low WS rank and file and for dancing around low WS monsters like stegadons and hydras. I don’t think you can hit anyone in combat on a 7, though I’ll have to check. Unfortunately, he isn’t going to kill anything that your ordinary troopers couldn’t smash, so this guy’s on unit support duty only. Also good for tying up enemy characters: any up to WS 7 will only hit him on a six.

On the flip side, characters with good attack power and higher WS will hit on 5’s and will cause trouble since, if they hit, he’s only T3 with AS 2+ - assassins could ruin his day. Also weapons which re-roll failed attacks or hit automatically, especially if they come with high strength, can completely squash him. Swap out Radiant Gem for Cloak of Aethis and (say) Amulet of Fire and you’ve got a guy who’ll bounce assassins all day long, though. But he still won’t kill much!

tiekwando2 wrote:Lets see if i was actually to make a list that tried to max magic probably would include:
Archmage lvl 4, Sliverwand, Staff of High Magic, Ring of Fury, Scroll 350
Mage lvl 2, Seerstaff, Circlet of Clarity 180
Mage lvl 2, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk 180
Noble, R Gem, Captain's Helm, GW, DA, Shield, BSB 169

Core:
10 Archers 110
10 Archers 110

Special:
14 SM Champ 222
14 SM 210
15 PG Champ, BOS 299

Rare:
5 DPs 165
Eagle 50
2 RBTs 200

Nice List! Here’s the one I used last:

Prince - Bd Steed, DA, Sh - Sword of Hoeth, Helm of Fortune, Ring of Lileath - 287
BsB - DP Kit - Battle Banner - 218
Lvl 2 Mage - Seerstaff, Jewel of the Dusk - 180
Lvl2 Mage - Ring of Corin, Dispel Scroll - 185

20 Veteran Spearelves - Mus, Std - 215
10 Archers -110

10 Silver Helms - Std, Banner of Ellyrion - 261
14 Swordmasters - Bladelord, Std, Sacred Incense, Banner of Sorcery - 309
12 White Lions - Full Command, Lion Banner - 235

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers - 200
1 Great Eagle - 50

Total= 2250

PD = 8-10
DD = 4 + 1 Scroll
Bound Spells: Vaul’s Unmaking x 3, Shield of Saphery x 1.

tiekwando2 wrote:ways to fix, not sure, its actually not as bad as i first thought, though like i said i would rather Corin become drained on 1,2 so i dont have to count (i loose marker dice a lot and it reminds my opponent i have it).

Ring of Corin

Ha ha! If counting’s a problem perhaps you could keep a little bit of paper with your ‘3 strikes’ marked on it? Hmm... it is actually advantageous to your opponent to know how many charges you have left (once he knows the item), since he can keep track of the ring and save a dice for it until it’s exhausted- I wonder if making it repeatedly useable but risking failure wouldn’t make it better…

I like your idea though- if the ring fails on 1-2 you’re likely to get three uses out of it by the time it breaks anyway. Of course there’s always the danger that it’ll fail on cast attempt no. 1… I’m usually against stuff failing for High Elves since it seems to me they make reliable things, but I actually think this is a pretty good solution… I’ll have a ponder on it.

tiekwando2 wrote:Staff of High Magic, lvl 3 is a good start (only need 1 dice to dispel) and might be enough, it is somewhat situational whether its useful but still useful in most situations especially if you plan on having a RiP spell go off.

Staff of High Magic

I think it’s the Staff of High Magic that’s the key component in the magic phase being slightly OTT. It’s the ‘remains in play’ spells which really do it, as you say. OK, off the top of my head I think there are two alternative options for this staff to make it a bit less of a bastard (both versions I’ve looked at before):

1: Staff is 20 points, Mage knows Drain Magic. In addition the staff contains the Bound Spell Drain Magic, Power Level 6, one use only. Bound spell works in the usual way - the casting is done by the item not the mage - therefore the mage may cast drain magic and use the bound spell in the same turn.

2: Staff is 30 points, Mage knows Drain Magic. As an alternative to casting the spell in his own magic phase, mage may use the power of the staff to cast Drain Magic at power level 3. If the bound spell is used then roll a D6. On a roll of 1 the staff is temporarily drained of energy and the bound spell may not be used for the rest of the game.

Option 1 is a ‘Drain Magic Bomb’ item. Nice combo vs Vampires would be for this mage to take the Circlet of Clarity, so he’d be casting Drain Magic on a 6 and, if he got it off, he’d be able to drop the staff to totally ruin the Vampires’ next turn.

Option 2 is the same item as now, just a bit more reasonable. Which do you think is best?

tiekwando2 · #11 Post by **tiekwando2** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:59 pm

I would rather take option 1 if i could take either item, because of its utility over the duration of the game and against many opponents. Also, as a side note at 30 points i cannot take Staff of High Magic and Ring of Corin on the same Mage, which is a lot of bounds for one guy.

Oh and the drainage idea is because it used to be 35 points drains on a 1 before it was nerfed (or was that Ring of Fury and Vauls worked all the time, can never remember). Now you subtract 5 points and give it 3 charges (so useful for half the game). I felt making it drain on 1,2 is actually worse and nerfed it slightly more, but still has multiple uses (randomness is always worse than guaranteed). Also i dont know any other item that has charges (well besides one use only items but that hardly counts).

also edited my previous post, but mention it here again, i actually dont think the magic phase was that bad for the amount of points i spent. DE, Tzeentch (especially with Kairos), Slaan+3 EOG, are all much worse to face in my opinion (maybe not Slaan + 3 EOG because of magic necessarily though they are pretty good)

Seredain · #12 Post by **Seredain** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:49 am

tiekwando2 wrote:I would rather take option 1 if i could take either item, because of its utility over the duration of the game and against many opponents. Also, as a side note at 30 points i cannot take Staff of High Magic and Ring of Corin on the same Mage, which is a lot of bounds for one guy.

So you actually mean option 2 is better? I think that's where my vote lies. 30 points, power level 4 (3 isn't good enough for 30 pts for this spell I don't think), exhausted on a 1.

EDIT: Final amendment on this - staff is now 30 points, mage knows Drain Magic, power level 3, bound spell may be used by mage in the same turn that he casts the spell normally (ie it gives him the spell and the bound spell separately), bound fails on a 1 after each use.

tiekwando2 wrote:Oh and the drainage idea is because it used to be 35 points drains on a 1 before it was nerfed (or was that Ring of Fury and Vauls worked all the time, can never remember). Now you subtract 5 points and give it 3 charges (so useful for half the game). I felt making it drain on 1,2 is actually worse and nerfed it slightly more, but still has multiple uses (randomness is always worse than guaranteed). Also i dont know any other item that has charges (well besides one use only items but that hardly counts).

The 35 point ring was Ring of Fury I think - Corin worked all the time and cost 40 points (total bargain).

Exhausted on a 1 or 2 is fair for 30 points and consistent as you say. I'll change that.

tiekwando2 wrote:also edited my previous post, but mention it here again, i actually dont think the magic phase was that bad for the amount of points i spent. DE, Tzeentch (especially with Kairos), Slaan+3 EOG, are all much worse to face in my opinion (maybe not Slaan + 3 EOG because of magic necessarily though they are pretty good)

Hmm... sounds fine to me. Ok I'll wait for some more input!

EDIT: I've tweaked the ring and the staff - thanks for the help man - good tips.

Anyone else want to help out or offer any views? Perhaps make a list?

geoguswrek · #13 Post by **geoguswrek** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:20 am

[quote="Seredain"]
Spearmen: cost 9 points and are equipped with Spears, Heavy Armour and Shields.

this makes them moderately takeable.

Archers: cost 11 points and are equipped with Longbows and Light Armour.
Shoot in 2 Ranks.

not sure these are worth it because...

Seaguard: cost 13 points and are equipped with Spears, Bows, Heavy Armour and Shields.
Shoot in 2 Ranks.

for 2 points a model i can have these!which are way way better

Elven Veterans:

these will be very annoying to face because for 200 points i get a unit with 15 attacks, loads of cambat res and a 3+ save.

Special Troops:

Silver Helms: cost 23 points and are equipped with Lance, Heavy Armour, Shields and Barded Steeds. They have WS 5. Silver Helms may carry a magic standard worth up to 25 points. One High Helm in the army may carry magic items worth up to 25 points.

still won't take them!

Shadow Warriors: cost 16 points and are equipped with Longbows, Two Hand Weapons and Light Armour.

not worth 16 points, make them bs5, so at least they are similar to shades for the same points. or, give them some cool rule like the skavens' slinking advance?

Tiranoc Silver Helms: Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariots cost 100 points. They are pulled by barded elven steeds and have movement 8, toughness 4, 4 wounds and AS 3+. They are armed with scythes. The crew have the same stats as Silver Helms, wear heavy armour and carry great swords.

100 points seems fair-ish, these are pretty cool, basically they sit between the lion chariot and the tiranoc in both points and effectiveness.

Rare Troops:

Dragon Princes: have STR 4 and cost 33 points.

right, i know what all my rare choices are... 198 points for 6 of these babies.

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

seems good but not many people have 65 points to spare on their lord, it will be nice on a mounted guy though, since its one handed.

Blade of Leaping Gold: - 60 points

eh.

Bow of the Seafarer: - 60 points

Blade of Sea Gold: - 50 points

Grants the wielder +1 strength. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by this weapon.

why +1 strength? should it be better than all the other no save weapons?

Spear of the Noble Sentinel: - 40 points

Model on foot only. Counts as a spear. In addition the wielder may re-roll failed hits and wounds in close combat. Attacks from this weapon are armour piercing.

fine, possibly a tad expensive.

Star Lance: - 40 points

White Sword: - 40 points

Reaver Bow: - 40 points

Balanced Blade: - 35 points

Model on foot only. The bearer’s attacks gain +1 to hit in close combat. Attacks made against the bearer in close combat suffer -1 to hit. If equipped with a mundane or magical shield, the bearer gains +1 AS exactly as if he were fighting with a normal hand weapon and shield.

won't get used, people like to be able to kill things with their characters.

Foe Bane: - 25 points

Magic Armour

Golden Crown: - 45 points

Grants the wearer a 6+ save and MR (1). In addition the effects of the first wound received by the wearer are ignored completely. Other wounds received that turn and subsequently are resolved as normal.

this is pretty fun.

Armour of Protection: - 40 points

fine

Armour of Heroes: - 40 points

Heavy Armour. The bearer and the unit he is with may re-roll failed fear and terror tests. Before allocating attacks against the bearer in close combat enemy models must take a leadership test with a -1 penalty. If this test is failed then their attacks will suffer -2 to hit.

not sure this'll get used.

Shadow Armour: - 40 points

Character on foot only. Light Armour. The Character may scout. In addition all ranged and close combat attacks against the bearer suffer -1 to hit.

why -1 to hit? especially in combat?

Temekador’s Gauntlets: - 35 points

Grants the wearer +1 AS and a ward save of 5+.

eh

Golden Shield: - 30 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save. Attacks made against the bearer suffer a -1 to hit penalty.

yeh this is pretty nice, its an upgraded enchanted shield.

Dragonscale Shield: - 25 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save and counts as dragon armour. Enemy monsters in base contact must test on their own leadership before allocating attacks against the bearer. Enemy dragons test on half their leadership, rounding up. If the test is failed the monster may not attack at all that turn. Note that no monster may use it’s rider’s leadership for the purpose of taking of this test.

just the potential to have this item is worth it!

Helm of Fortune: - 25 points

Armour of Caledor: - 25 points

Captain’s Helm: - 10 points

When fighting as part of a High Elf infantry unit the wearer will generate +1 combat resolution in the same way as if he were carrying a standard. Note that this bonus is in addition to any other bonuses granted by unit or battle standards.

does this count if he is on his own? what if hes a bsb on his own?

Waystone Shield: - 10 points

Grants the bearer a 6+ save and MR (1).

you like magic res, don't you?

Talismans

Vambraces of Defence: - 55 points

Loremaster’s Cloak: - 40 points

Talisman of Saphery: - 35 points

Sacred Incense: - 25 points

Guardian Pheonix: - 25 points

Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

The bearer has MR (1). In addition the bearer and the unit he is with are immune to fire and flaming attacks.

nope, this is too good.

Cloak of Aethis: - 15 points

The character wearing this cloak is immune to the effects of all poisons. Note that only the character benefits, not his mount should he have one.

fine, won;t get used.

Pendant of White Light: - 10 points

The wearer has MR (2) against all spells from the lore of Dark Magic.

magic res is panse against dark magic, it doesn't stop black horror, make it make dark magic miscast on a double 1,2 or 3 like the banner of sundering and you are onto something.

Staff of High Magic: - 30 points

The mage knows the Drain Magic spell regardless of which lore he chooses and in addition to his other spells. Once per magic phase, instead of casting the spell as normal, he may elect to use the power of the staff and cast Drain Magic as a bound spell, power level 4. After this roll a D6. On a roll of 1 the bound power of the staff is temporarily exhausted and may not be used for the rest of the battle.

this is pretty solid, its not too good, but its useful.

Circlet of Clarity: - 15 points

The mage may choose one spell from those he has selected at the start of the game. All attempts made by this mage to cast the chosen spell benefit from a casting bonus of +1.

wow, this is actually a brilliant idea, gw should steal it.

Null Stone: - 100 points

The bearer has MR (2). Magic and daemonic items/icons within 6” of the bearer will not work. Wizards within 6” of the bearer may not cast spells. Daemons in base contact with the bearer will lose their daemonic ward saves.

now would i take it just to annoy daemons?

Ring of Corin: - 30 points

Bound Spell, power level 4. This ring contains the spell Vaul’s Unmaking. After each use roll a D6. On a roll of 1 or 2 the power of the ring is temporarily exhausted and it may not be used for the rest of the battle.

yeh, its still worth it.

Orb of Stars: - 30 points

If the bearer suffers a wound the orb flashes with blinding white light and transports him to another point on the battlefield, 3d6” in a random direction as determined by rolling the scatter dice. Resolve all effects of the wound received before moving the model.

invulnerable archmage! that is all i have to say.

Blessed Tome: - 25 points

welcome back old friend.

Ring of Lileath: - 10 points
meh
FIN

tiekwando2 · #14 Post by **tiekwando2** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:22 pm

My list:

Heroes
Archmage lvl 4, Silverwand, Jewel of Dusk, Scroll, Scroll, Ring of Corin 355
Noble Captain's Helm, Radiant Gem (Ring of Fury), Bsb, Shield, DA, GW (in PG) 171(175)

Core:
21 Veteran Spearelves, Standard 219
10 Archers 110

Special:
5 Silver Helms: 115 (as they used to be back in the good old days, cheap flankers)
20 PG, Champ, Warbanner 344 (with noble get +8 CR!)
14 SM Champ, Ring of Liliath 232

Rare:
6 DP 198
Eagle 50
2 RBTs 200

1994(1999 with RoF)
8pd + 2 bounds, 5dd + 2 scrolls

I compete in every phase of the game, Magic is decent, especially for the points. shooting 10 archers and 2 RBTs. March block with eagle. Silverhelms are flankers. 20 PG is a ridiculous unit with +8 CR (+3 ranks, +1 standard, +1 Warbanner, +1 Bsb, +1 Captain's, +1 Outnumber) , expensive though (515 points with Gem noble), maybe 15 with +6 CR would be better (-1 for outnumber, -1 Rank). Anyways i cant think of much that will beat them. 14 SM with liliath for a surprise extra 5+ ward.
Oh and the noble, probably spam fireballs, maybe if he gets sword of rhuin keep it.

geoguswrek · #15 Post by **geoguswrek** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:34 pm

Tiek: a character can't have two bound spells mate.

tiekwando2 · #16 Post by **tiekwando2** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Hmm never knew that one, well never had to worry about it either until now.

Edit to get 2x scrolls, jewel of dusk, ring of corin, silverwand about the same, maybe better

actually looking at my list though there are lots of things i would like to change, so meh. I was trying to design it around the 20 PG unit with +8 CR, along with enhanced DPs, and usefulness of veterans for surviving (hit on 4s, 3+ save for 10pts, yes please, i'll win by static CR against most enemies and those enemies with more will probably loose to my sheer # of attacks)

Probably better off with caddy mage and a new lots of dd mage (annulian crystal + jewel of dawn, 3dd and -1 pd on a lvl 1)

Fun list would be Stardragon + 3x6 DPs, shadow warrior specials (to take place of eagles), probably still archer core though maybe not.

Seredain · #17 Post by **Seredain** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:48 pm

To the point as ever Geogus! Thanks for taking part.

geoguswrek wrote:
Seredain wrote: Spearmen: cost 9 points and are equipped with Spears, Heavy Armour and Shields.

this makes them moderately takeable.

Archers: cost 11 points and are equipped with Longbows and Light Armour.
Shoot in 2 Ranks.

not sure these are worth it because...

Seaguard: cost 13 points and are equipped with Spears, Bows, Heavy Armour and Shields.
Shoot in 2 Ranks.

for 2 points a model i can have these!which are way way better

Yes they are! But they're also expensive enough for you to take archers if you're looking exclusively for ranged attacks. Frankly if they were any more expensive they'd be on small-time sentry duty like they are now. Don't want to make archers cheaper since HE should be encouraged to take spears (so Archers got the free light armour instead). Archers may also take on a more important role now that the RBT's are competing for slots.

Elven Veterans:

these will be very annoying to face because for 200 points i get a unit with 15 attacks, loads of cambat res and a 3+ save.

Yeah you do! Once. Think of them as big'uns - spear-fighting is what the High Elves do better than anyone. AP crossbows will melt them still, as will a flank charge. It's easy to throw a lot of point at this unit - a magic banner and a character - and get carried away. But they are lovely. Veteran seaguard are absolute champions!

Special Troops:

Silver Helms: cost 23 points and are equipped with Lance, Heavy Armour, Shields and Barded Steeds. They have WS 5. Silver Helms may carry a magic standard worth up to 25 points. One High Helm in the army may carry magic items worth up to 25 points.

still won't take them!

You will if you want repeater bolt throwers, eagles and heavy cavalry.

Shadow Warriors: cost 16 points and are equipped with Longbows, Two Hand Weapons and Light Armour.

not worth 16 points, make them bs5, so at least they are similar to shades for the same points. or, give them some cool rule like the skavens' slinking advance?

I'll leave them as they are as I'm very wary of making these guys too good. Shades are too good for their cost and, in any case, I think DE and WE should have something of an advantage when it comes to light scouting troops, since now we have good armour and amazing line-of-battle spear units. In any case these guys have 2 ASF attacks with a re-roll. That'll do well against other light troops. Also, fluffwise, I see SW's as eager to get into combat: BS 5 seems a bit OTT.

Edit: Shadow Walkers get +1 attack rather than +1 BS. Better fluff and more useful - OP edited.

Tiranoc Silver Helms: Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariots cost 100 points. They are pulled by barded elven steeds and have movement 8, toughness 4, 4 wounds and AS 3+. They are armed with scythes. The crew have the same stats as Silver Helms, wear heavy armour and carry great swords.

100 points seems fair-ish, these are pretty cool, basically they sit between the lion chariot and the tiranoc in both points and effectiveness.

Love this unit, ever since I shoved some barded horses under a normal chariot. I've always thought of Tiranoc Chariots as that realms reavers - these guys are Tiranoc's knightly class. They look great next to the spear blocks.

Rare Troops:

Dragon Princes: have STR 4 and cost 33 points.

right, i know what all my rare choices are... 198 points for 6 of these babies.

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

seems good but not many people have 65 points to spare on their lord, it will be nice on a mounted guy though, since its one handed.

Actually it requires 2 hands. One handed was basically putting an ogre blade (40 points for us), plus the old Hoeth sword (at least 40) into one weapon - too much. 'Requires 2 hands' keeps it balanced, though you can still take it on a mounted prince and it works well: I'm currently fielding a mounted Prince with this sword, Helm of Fortune and Ring of Lileath. Gives him 4 Str 6 auto-hits and re-rollable 2+ AS, plus the ring.

Blade of Leaping Gold: - 60 points

eh.

Bow of the Seafarer: - 60 points

Blade of Sea Gold: - 50 points

Grants the wielder +1 strength. No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by this weapon.

why +1 strength? should it be better than all the other no save weapons?

3 reasons: 1: No AS allowed by itself makes it bugger all use for str 4 elves except against a ridiculously small number of opponents (ie human/elf knights - that's it). I'm trying to make magic weapon choice less of a no-brainer. 2: You have to pay 50 points if you want it. 3: It fits the fluff - a sword striking with the "unstoppable power of the waves" is likely to hit harder!

Spear of the Noble Sentinel: - 40 points

Model on foot only. Counts as a spear. In addition the wielder may re-roll failed hits and wounds in close combat. Attacks from this weapon are armour piercing.

fine, possibly a tad expensive.

Don't forget that against fast chargers this guy'll have Str 5 attacks with total -3 AS. As ever I'm worried about making things too good for cost - you reckon this is a 35 pointer?

Star Lance: - 40 points

White Sword: - 40 points

Reaver Bow: - 40 points

Balanced Blade: - 35 points

Model on foot only. The bearer’s attacks gain +1 to hit in close combat. Attacks made against the bearer in close combat suffer -1 to hit. If equipped with a mundane or magical shield, the bearer gains +1 AS exactly as if he were fighting with a normal hand weapon and shield.

won't get used, people like to be able to kill things with their characters.

You'd shove this on a unit support guy with Golden Shield and something else useful (like radiant gem). Great for bouncing assassins and (especially), for nullifying things like stegadons. Give a prince this sword, Golden Shield and Radiant Gem and shove him in a unit of white lions (who get +1 LD for stubborn on LD 9 - 10 with blessed tome). When he's not holding off the big beasts to break them on combat res, he can sheath his sword and cast bears anger for some RnF killing fun! One of my fave combos.

Foe Bane: - 25 points

Magic Armour

Golden Crown: - 45 points

Grants the wearer a 6+ save and MR (1). In addition the effects of the first wound received by the wearer are ignored completely. Other wounds received that turn and subsequently are resolved as normal.

this is pretty fun.

Armour of Protection: - 40 points

fine

Armour of Heroes: - 40 points

Heavy Armour. The bearer and the unit he is with may re-roll failed fear and terror tests. Before allocating attacks against the bearer in close combat enemy models must take a leadership test with a -1 penalty. If this test is failed then their attacks will suffer -2 to hit.

not sure this'll get used.

It's a shame but you're probably right. Deffo a niche item but then it always was.

Shadow Armour: - 40 points

Character on foot only. Light Armour. The Character may scout. In addition all ranged and close combat attacks against the bearer suffer -1 to hit.

why -1 to hit? especially in combat?

The guy in this armour is like a living shadow. If you hit him you'll crush him but it'll be harder. It's 40 points so quite an investment.

Temekador’s Gauntlets: - 35 points

Grants the wearer +1 AS and a ward save of 5+.

eh

Golden Shield: - 30 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save. Attacks made against the bearer suffer a -1 to hit penalty.

yeh this is pretty nice, its an upgraded enchanted shield.

Dragonscale Shield: - 25 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save and counts as dragon armour. Enemy monsters in base contact must test on their own leadership before allocating attacks against the bearer. Enemy dragons test on half their leadership, rounding up. If the test is failed the monster may not attack at all that turn. Note that no monster may use it’s rider’s leadership for the purpose of taking of this test.

just the potential to have this item is worth it!

Shove this on a hero with the Foe Bane to put the hurt on Hydras! Hmm... Foe Bane still isn't great... maybe time to give it flaming attacks...

Helm of Fortune: - 25 points

Armour of Caledor: - 25 points

Captain’s Helm: - 10 points

When fighting as part of a High Elf infantry unit the wearer will generate +1 combat resolution in the same way as if he were carrying a standard. Note that this bonus is in addition to any other bonuses granted by unit or battle standards.

does this count if he is on his own? what if hes a bsb on his own?

As the description says, it's when he's in a unit only. The helm boosts his ability to command and drill infantry, so he won't get a bonus when he's by himself as there's no-one to command!

Waystone Shield: - 10 points

Grants the bearer a 6+ save and MR (1).

you like magic res, don't you?

I do! It's Ulthuan-y.

Talismans

Vambraces of Defence: - 55 points

Loremaster’s Cloak: - 40 points

Talisman of Saphery: - 35 points

Sacred Incense: - 25 points

Guardian Pheonix: - 25 points

Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

The bearer has MR (1). In addition the bearer and the unit he is with are immune to fire and flaming attacks.

nope, this is too good.

This item is giving me headaches. It's useless as is... I'm not sure saving whole unit from fire is that good - the difference in cost between DA and normal heavy armour is miniscule, after all, and this doesn't work on all breath weapons. I'll put the cost up to 25 and see how that sits. If a unit champion can't take this item then it'll never be used.

Cloak of Aethis: - 15 points

The character wearing this cloak is immune to the effects of all poisons. Note that only the character benefits, not his mount should he have one.

fine, won;t get used.

It won't very often, but it's a good thing to put on an infantry commander who's worried about Dark Elf assassins.

Pendant of White Light: - 10 points

The wearer has MR (2) against all spells from the lore of Dark Magic.

magic res is panse against dark magic, it doesn't stop black horror, make it make dark magic miscast on a double 1,2 or 3 like the banner of sundering and you are onto something.

Thanks I'll take a look at this.

Staff of High Magic: - 30 points

The mage knows the Drain Magic spell regardless of which lore he chooses and in addition to his other spells. Once per magic phase, instead of casting the spell as normal, he may elect to use the power of the staff and cast Drain Magic as a bound spell, power level 4. After this roll a D6. On a roll of 1 the bound power of the staff is temporarily exhausted and may not be used for the rest of the battle.

this is pretty solid, its not too good, but its useful.

Circlet of Clarity: - 15 points

The mage may choose one spell from those he has selected at the start of the game. All attempts made by this mage to cast the chosen spell benefit from a casting bonus of +1.

wow, this is actually a brilliant idea, gw should steal it.

Thanks

Null Stone: - 100 points

The bearer has MR (2). Magic and daemonic items/icons within 6” of the bearer will not work. Wizards within 6” of the bearer may not cast spells. Daemons in base contact with the bearer will lose their daemonic ward saves.

now would i take it just to annoy daemons?

Yeah pretty much, though you could also shove it in a big block of SM's and watch them roll. Originally had it that all Daemons within 6" would lose their ward saves but thought that was OTT. Still not quite sure.

Ring of Corin: - 30 points

Bound Spell, power level 4. This ring contains the spell Vaul’s Unmaking. After each use roll a D6. On a roll of 1 or 2 the power of the ring is temporarily exhausted and it may not be used for the rest of the battle.

yeh, its still worth it.

Orb of Stars: - 30 points

If the bearer suffers a wound the orb flashes with blinding white light and transports him to another point on the battlefield, 3d6” in a random direction as determined by rolling the scatter dice. Resolve all effects of the wound received before moving the model.

invulnerable archmage! that is all i have to say.

Hoorah! But with all the arcane choices you might struggle to find the space... a useful one for a Prince who'd like to wear proper armour. As an armour item this one just didn't make any sense.

Blessed Tome: - 25 points

welcome back old friend.

Shove this on a White Lion unit with the general leading it and let the Stubborn LD 10 good times roll!

Ring of Lileath: - 10 points
meh

Don't underestimate this item! Power level 6 means you're very likely to get it off when you need it. It's also very flexible. I've taken this item in 2 games now and absolutely love it for 10 points.

FIN

Lord Anathir · #18 Post by **Lord Anathir** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:38 pm

Love the magic phase. If you bring 3 mages and a bsb with radiant gem you've got one hell of a phase, worthy of the High Elves.

Archmage, Silver Wand, Starwood Staff, Ring of Fury
Mage, Seerstaff, Scroll
Mage, Ring of Corin, Scroll
BSB, Radiant Gem, Jewel of Dawn, GW, DA

that was my first attempt. but I think thats too many points so I tried to trim it and got:

Archmage, SilverWand, Starwood Staff, Ring of fury
Mage, Seerstaff scroll
Noble, bsb, radiant gem, jewel of dawn, gw, da
sorcery
ring of lileath

cheap. got a bsb, 7dd+1 scroll, the usual excellent spell selection, ring of fury, +1 to cast on the main guy and a good amount of pd.

Seredain · #19 Post by **Seredain** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:42 pm

tiekwando2 wrote:20 PG is a ridiculous unit with +8 CR (+3 ranks, +1 standard, +1 Warbanner, +1 Bsb, +1 Captain's, +1 Outnumber) , expensive though (515 points with Gem noble), maybe 15 with +6 CR would be better (-1 for outnumber, -1 Rank). Anyways i cant think of much that will beat them. 14 SM with liliath for a surprise extra 5+ ward.
Oh and the noble, probably spam fireballs, maybe if he gets sword of rhuin keep it.

All-round excellent list buddy! That Pheonix Unit is a very very beautiful thing. I wanna be friends with it. If I were the enemy I'd either just rry and avoid it (it's so many points so quite likely), or shove something fast and killy into its face to get rid of the excellent Noble. If you want to keep him alive then stand him next to the pheonix guard champ, who should take armour of caledor so's he can issue challenges on the noble's behalf.

I note with pleasure that we're going to be seeing fewer RBT's with this list now that the amazing Dragon Princes are rare... DP lists could struggle against very shooty armies. Your 3DP/star dragon list, for example. It'll hit like a ton of bricks but will have basically no missile cover what so ever. You'll be needing reavers, shadow warriors, possibly helms too, to take out machines and crossbows. Remember that the new DP's die just as easily as Silver Helms, which are 10 points cheaper...

geoguswrek · #20 Post by **geoguswrek** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:11 pm

Seredain wrote: Yes they are! But they're also expensive enough for you to take archers if you're looking exclusively for ranged attacks. Frankly if they were any more expensive they'd be on small-time sentry duty like they are now. Don't want to make archers cheaper since HE should be encouraged to take spears (so Archers got the free light armour instead). Archers may also take on a more important role now that the RBT's are competing for slots.

if i want a purely shooting unit, i'd still pay 2 points and 6" of range for the unit with a 4+ save against shooting and survivability in combat. that said if you give seaguard light armour i'll never take them.

Elven Veterans:

Yeah you do! Once. Think of them as big'uns - spear-fighting is what the High Elves do better than anyone. AP crossbows will melt them still, as will a flank charge. It's easy to throw a lot of point at this unit - a magic banner and a character - and get carried away. But they are lovely. Veteran seaguard are absolute champions!

wait... i can buy veteran seaguard? thats awesome! i don't care that shooting melts my 10 point models off, they cost 10 points each. those rxbs will be wasted on vet spears when they can be shooting DP with a 2+ save at 33 points a model: a much better target.

Special Troops:

Silver Helms:
still won't take them!

You will if you want repeater bolt throwers, eagles and heavy cavalry.

i'd rather live without eagles and just take reavers, or live without bolt throwers. They are nowhere near as good a use of a special slot as DP are of a rare slot. plus i can get silverhelm chariots, which are immense for 100 points.

Shadow Warriors: cost 16 points and are equipped with Longbows, Two Hand Weapons and Light Armour.

not worth 16 points, make them bs5, so at least they are similar to shades for the same points. or, give them some cool rule like the skavens' slinking advance?

I'll leave them as they are as I'm very wary of making these guys too good. Shades are too good for their cost and, in any case, I think DE and WE should have something of an advantage when it comes to light scouting troops, since now we have good armour and amazing line-of-battle spear units. In any case these guys have 2 ASF attacks with a re-roll. That'll do well against other light troops. Also, fluffwise, I see SW's as eager to get into combat: BS 5 seems a bit OTT.

Edit: Shadow Walkers get +1 attack rather than +1 BS. Better fluff and more useful - OP edited.

ok i can see what you are doing with them, and with 2 attacks each they are usuable, but 16 points is a lot unless i'm using them to bodyguard a scouting character.

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

seems good but not many people have 65 points to spare on their lord, it will be nice on a mounted guy though, since its one handed.

Actually it requires 2 hands. One handed was basically putting an ogre blade (40 points for us), plus the old Hoeth sword (at least 40) into one weapon - too much. 'Requires 2 hands' keeps it balanced, though you can still take it on a mounted prince and it works well: I'm currently fielding a mounted Prince with this sword, Helm of Fortune and Ring of Lileath. Gives him 4 Str 6 auto-hits and re-rollable 2+ AS, plus the ring.

rerolling 2+ isn't quite worth it. the problem is that 65 points is a lot of points, even for this weapon when, with 10 points you get the talisman, which is almost as good for +10 points, and infact, a lot of time is more likely to hit something.

Blade of Sea Gold: - 50 points

Spear of the Noble Sentinel: - 40 points

Model on foot only. Counts as a spear. In addition the wielder may re-roll failed hits and wounds in close combat. Attacks from this weapon are armour piercing.

fine, possibly a tad expensive.

Don't forget that against fast chargers this guy'll have Str 5 attacks with total -3 AS. As ever I'm worried about making things too good for cost - you reckon this is a 35 pointer?

good point, i forgot the new spear rules. Its probably ok since most of the things you need the strength against it'll be s5, does mean that a hero on foot with this is essentially dead if it doesn't kill the hero it's fighting (max 3+ save)

Balanced Blade: - 35 points

won't get used, people like to be able to kill things with their characters.

You'd shove this on a unit support guy with Golden Shield and something else useful (like radiant gem). Great for bouncing assassins and (especially), for nullifying things like stegadons. Give a prince this sword, Golden Shield and Radiant Gem and shove him in a unit of white lions (who get +1 LD for stubborn on LD 9 - 10 with blessed tome). When he's not holding off the big beasts to break them on combat res, he can sheath his sword and cast bears anger for some RnF killing fun! One of my fave combos.

but if i just give him a horse, golden shield + vambraces, i have a guy who bounces big creatures much more efficiently. the main reason to take this would be to give a decent save on foot when you want to take some other on foot only items, maybe the captain's hat, but you can't use a great weapon which is the main reason to be on foot.

Armour of Heroes: - 40 points

Heavy Armour. The bearer and the unit he is with may re-roll failed fear and terror tests. Before allocating attacks against the bearer in close combat enemy models must take a leadership test with a -1 penalty. If this test is failed then their attacks will suffer -2 to hit.

not sure this'll get used.

It's a shame but you're probably right. Deffo a niche item but then it always was.

nothing you can do about it other than a total overhaul, which is counter productive.

Shadow Armour: - 40 points

Character on foot only. Light Armour. The Character may scout. In addition all ranged and close combat attacks against the bearer suffer -1 to hit.

why -1 to hit? especially in combat?

The guy in this armour is like a living shadow. If you hit him you'll crush him but it'll be harder. It's 40 points so quite an investment.

yeh, i'm not gonna take it now, at 25 points you got this, the seafarer and talisman of loec, for a scouting bolt thrower with s6 and rerolls in cobmat, an annoying proposition, now at 40 i can't get the talisman, so knights will remove it pretty easily.

Dragonscale Shield: - 25 points

Grants the bearer a 5+ save and counts as dragon armour. Enemy monsters in base contact must test on their own leadership before allocating attacks against the bearer. Enemy dragons test on half their leadership, rounding up. If the test is failed the monster may not attack at all that turn. Note that no monster may use it’s rider’s leadership for the purpose of taking of this test.

just the potential to have this item is worth it!

Shove this on a hero with the Foe Bane to put the hurt on Hydras! Hmm... Foe Bane still isn't great... maybe time to give it flaming attacks...

i don't need to have it, i just need my opponent to know i CAN have it, 2 heroes on eagles, and a dragon won't go anywhere, because the guy ontop knows one of them might be able to kill him.

Captain’s Helm: - 10 points

When fighting as part of a High Elf infantry unit the wearer will generate +1 combat resolution in the same way as if he were carrying a standard. Note that this bonus is in addition to any other bonuses granted by unit or battle standards.

does this count if he is on his own? what if hes a bsb on his own?

As the description says, it's when he's in a unit only. The helm boosts his ability to command and drill infantry, so he won't get a bonus when he's by himself as there's no-one to command!

oh... shame, i almost thought about taking a foot bsb for a moment there. that said, i can take it on a character on a horse, and put him in infantry...

Waystone Shield: - 10 points

Grants the bearer a 6+ save and MR (1).

you like magic res, don't you?

I do! It's Ulthuan-y.

is this a shield by the way? or just an additional save?

Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

The bearer has MR (1). In addition the bearer and the unit he is with are immune to fire and flaming attacks.

nope, this is too good.

This item is giving me headaches. It's useless as is... I'm not sure saving whole unit from fire is that good - the difference in cost between DA and normal heavy armour is miniscule, after all, and this doesn't work on all breath weapons. I'll put the cost up to 25 and see how that sits. If a unit champion can't take this item then it'll never be used.

the problem is that i'd almost take it for the magic res, but add in the immune to fire and i want it in a swordmaster unit if i ever take one (no wait, i'm lying, talisman of loec first). its not unbelieveably good, but some enemies will hate it.

Cloak of Aethis: - 15 points

The character wearing this cloak is immune to the effects of all poisons. Note that only the character benefits, not his mount should he have one.

fine, won;t get used.

It won't very often, but it's a good thing to put on an infantry commander who's worried about Dark Elf assassins.

then take an armour save instead, poison bothers high toughness stuff, even the special ones, they are rubbish against us, at best making the assasin s4.. which he is anyway.

Pendant of White Light: - 10 points

The wearer has MR (2) against all spells from the lore of Dark Magic.

magic res is panse against dark magic, it doesn't stop black horror, make it make dark magic miscast on a double 1,2 or 3 like the banner of sundering and you are onto something.

Thanks I'll take a look at this.

ok.

Null Stone: - 100 points

The bearer has MR (2). Magic and daemonic items/icons within 6” of the bearer will not work. Wizards within 6” of the bearer may not cast spells. Daemons in base contact with the bearer will lose their daemonic ward saves.

now would i take it just to annoy daemons?

Yeah pretty much, though you could also shove it in a big block of SM's and watch them roll. Originally had it that all Daemons within 6" would lose their ward saves but thought that was OTT. Still not quite sure.
it is fine that all daemons w/in 6 lose their ward save.. tell them their army is cheesy and to shut up. besides, soemthing should kill daemons and this does cost 100 points. I still want to use a unit of pg, really wide, with this, then a bsb with battle banner, and the warbanner, both at the far end of the unit, so they are outside 6"....

Orb of Stars: - 30 points

If the bearer suffers a wound the orb flashes with blinding white light and transports him to another point on the battlefield, 3d6” in a random direction as determined by rolling the scatter dice. Resolve all effects of the wound received before moving the model.

invulnerable archmage! that is all i have to say.

Hoorah! But with all the arcane choices you might struggle to find the space... a useful one for a Prince who'd like to wear proper armour. As an armour item this one just didn't make any sense.

yeh it was a bit crap. This one is awesome and i'll always find space on my archmage for it. (silver wand, annullian crystal, orb of stars, scroll?)

Blessed Tome: - 25 points

welcome back old friend.

Shove this on a White Lion unit with the general leading it and let the Stubborn LD 10 good times roll!

i always used to use it to give me a general. back in the old book, when you had intrigue, you took this in some DP, giving you a unit of ld10, that guaranteed you a ld9 general, even if it was a wizard, and gave nearby chariots/silvers ld 9 for fear tests. now it isn't so important, but it is wrong in/near white lions.

Ring of Lileath: - 10 points
meh

Don't underestimate this item! Power level 6 means you're very likely to get it off when you need it. It's also very flexible. I've taken this item in 2 games now and absolutely love it for 10 points.

its ok, but it is one use only, it isn't special and it isn't the talisman of loec (best item in the book)

[/quote][/quote]

Lord Anathir · #21 Post by **Lord Anathir** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:53 pm

I'd like to see dragons becoming lvl1/2s and having a Lore of Dragons that dragon mages can cast from as well. and maybe an item that allows regular mages/archmages to do so as well.

tiekwando2 · #22 Post by **tiekwando2** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:01 pm

sorry i really dont want to finish my essay so here is another list (stolen from someone else and modified to fit, i think its funny)

Tiranoc Warhost

Hero:
Noble Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot, R Gem, Jewel of Dawn, DA, Shield, GW (counts as on foot) 251
Mage lvl 1 2x scrolls Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 240 (both have a 3+ save from shooting)

Core:
10 Archers
10 Archers
(going fast moving so spears will be left behind, enemy might deploy back so 30" will be necessary)

Special
Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 100
Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 100
Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 100
Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 100
Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 100
Tiranoc Silver Helm Chariot 100

Rare
6 DPs Champ Blessed Tome 243 (now all 3 will probably have ld 10)
6 DPs 198
6 DPs 198
Eagle 50

2000 4pd 5dd, 2 scrolls

Its in your face turn 2/3, and actually is pretty good against shooting (t4 3+ save or t3 2+ save), magic should be held off for turn 1 and with turn two letting spells through that you dont mind but stopping the big one or two. Magic offense probably consists of trying to IF drain magic on 2 dice with 2 characters, or if going against caddies shield of saphery twice.

what this list fears, big units of CR/unbreakable/stubborn units
Bloodthirsters with s7, Stardragons (cant deal with flying s7)
and most of all Forests...

BTW this list i think would rock non stardragon high elf lists, I6 ASF or impact hits for everyone.

geoguswrek · #23 Post by **geoguswrek** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:09 pm

tiek: i like the idea but.....
noble may as well have a great weapon.. he counts as being on foot.

6 chariots mean s7 characters hurt... a lot.

Seredain · #24 Post by **Seredain** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:27 pm

Lord Anathir wrote:Archmage, SilverWand, Starwood Staff, Ring of fury
Mage, Seerstaff scroll
Noble, bsb, radiant gem, jewel of dawn, gw, da
sorcery
ring of lileath

cheap. got a bsb, 7dd+1 scroll, the usual excellent spell selection, ring of fury, +1 to cast on the main guy and a good amount of pd.

That's an awesome character setup. Especially like seeing the Starwood Staff being used for the archmage - he's so versatile. As an alternative you could give him Circlet of Clarity for the all-important single spell and use the points saved to pick up a power stone, or maybe another scroll? Really solid defence then.

geoguswrek wrote:
Seredain wrote:
Elven Veterans:

wait... i can buy veteran seaguard? thats awesome! i don't care that shooting melts my 10 point models off, they cost 10 points each. those rxbs will be wasted on vet spears when they can be shooting DP with a 2+ save at 33 points a model: a much better target.

Yep any spear-armed infantry - and the veteran seaguard a beautiful unit. But also they're 14 points per model. You won't have that many DP's (and the reapers will be on to them), so AP crossbows will be looking at other units too. Seaguard don't want to get into an even firefight with them as they're much less expendible.

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

Actually it requires 2 hands. One handed was basically putting an ogre blade (40 points for us), plus the old Hoeth sword (at least 40) into one weapon - too much. 'Requires 2 hands' keeps it balanced, though you can still take it on a mounted prince and it works well: I'm currently fielding a mounted Prince with this sword, Helm of Fortune and Ring of Lileath. Gives him 4 Str 6 auto-hits and re-rollable 2+ AS, plus the ring.

rerolling 2+ isn't quite worth it. the problem is that 65 points is a lot of points, even for this weapon when, with 10 points you get the talisman, which is almost as good for +10 points, and infact, a lot of time is more likely to hit something.

An infantry prince with GW + loec is amazing for that round, obviously. Of course this sword gives you automatic hits and you get the +2 strength bonus too - so it's powerful and consistent. Strictly a mounted prince weapon, this one, but great for hacking up so many things. I can't make it any cheaper without getting accused of cheese, and I just think it would be too good as a one-handed weapon, so I'm kinda stuck on 65. If it ends up as a bit of a niche choice, that's probably ok.

Spear of the Noble Sentinel: - 40 points

Model on foot only. Counts as a spear. In addition the wielder may re-roll failed hits and wounds in close combat. Attacks from this weapon are armour piercing.

fine, possibly a tad expensive.

Don't forget that against fast chargers this guy'll have Str 5 attacks with total -3 AS. As ever I'm worried about making things too good for cost - you reckon this is a 35 pointer?

good point, i forgot the new spear rules. Its probably ok since most of the things you need the strength against it'll be s5, does mean that a hero on foot with this is essentially dead if it doesn't kill the hero it's fighting (max 3+ save)

Not necessarily. Also remember that HE nobles and princes gain the +1 AS when fighting on foot with spear and shield exactly as if it was a HW + shield. So; Prince with the spear and enchanted shield gets a 2+ AS and 50 points to blow on toys, or perhaps a better choice is the Spear, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Saphery for a guarenteed 2+ re-rollable AS and a confounded enemy.

With this in mind, do you think 40 or 35 points? If it was 35 you could take enchanted shield and the Vambraces for the magic 2+ re-rolled AS and 4+ Ward. Might make it more competitive vs a GW (high strength but you could fluff your attacks, and you might want AoC elsewhere...).

Balanced Blade: - 35 points

won't get used, people like to be able to kill things with their characters.

You'd shove this on a unit support guy with Golden Shield and something else useful (like radiant gem). Great for bouncing assassins and (especially), for nullifying things like stegadons. Give a prince this sword, Golden Shield and Radiant Gem and shove him in a unit of white lions (who get +1 LD for stubborn on LD 9 - 10 with blessed tome). When he's not holding off the big beasts to break them on combat res, he can sheath his sword and cast bears anger for some RnF killing fun! One of my fave combos.

but if i just give him a horse, golden shield + vambraces, i have a guy who bounces big creatures much more efficiently. the main reason to take this would be to give a decent save on foot when you want to take some other on foot only items, maybe the captain's hat, but you can't use a great weapon which is the main reason to be on foot.

You make a good point here. Your chap isn't quite as good vs Stegs since a) you have to pay for the horse and b) the steg's high strength, along with beasts like the Carnosaur etc, will eat into your armour (not that 3 4+ saves is bad!). On the other hand your setup is more versatile... What to do... discount the sword to 30 points?

Shadow Armour: - 40 points

Character on foot only. Light Armour. The Character may scout. In addition all ranged and close combat attacks against the bearer suffer -1 to hit.

why -1 to hit? especially in combat?

The guy in this armour is like a living shadow. If you hit him you'll crush him but it'll be harder. It's 40 points so quite an investment.

yeh, i'm not gonna take it now, at 25 points you got this, the seafarer and talisman of loec, for a scouting bolt thrower with s6 and rerolls in cobmat, an annoying proposition, now at 40 i can't get the talisman, so knights will remove it pretty easily.

True, but he's much harder to pick off with shooting (you're looking at -2 at least) and he does have some protection should he end up in combat despite the light armour. You just have to make sure he doesn't get caught in the open!

Captain’s Helm: - 10 points

When fighting as part of a High Elf infantry unit the wearer will generate +1 combat resolution in the same way as if he were carrying a standard. Note that this bonus is in addition to any other bonuses granted by unit or battle standards.

does this count if he is on his own? what if hes a bsb on his own?

As the description says, it's when he's in a unit only. The helm boosts his ability to command and drill infantry, so he won't get a bonus when he's by himself as there's no-one to command!

oh... shame, i almost thought about taking a foot bsb for a moment there. that said, i can take it on a character on a horse, and put him in infantry...

Yep, or on a GW BsB on foot with a PG AoC bodyguard. Have you checked out Tiekwando's pheonix guard combat res bomb in his list above? 8 static CR! Total monster!

Waystone Shield: - 10 points

Grants the bearer a 6+ save and MR (1).

you like magic res, don't you?

I do! It's Ulthuan-y.

is this a shield by the way? or just an additional save?

It's a shield, so can only be taken by characters or champs in cavalry units.

Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

The bearer has MR (1). In addition the bearer and the unit he is with are immune to fire and flaming attacks.

nope, this is too good.

This item is giving me headaches. It's useless as is... I'm not sure saving whole unit from fire is that good - the difference in cost between DA and normal heavy armour is miniscule, after all, and this doesn't work on all breath weapons. I'll put the cost up to 25 and see how that sits. If a unit champion can't take this item then it'll never be used.

the problem is that i'd almost take it for the magic res, but add in the immune to fire and i want it in a swordmaster unit if i ever take one (no wait, i'm lying, talisman of loec first). its not unbelieveably good, but some enemies will hate it.

Talisman of Loec again? You can only take it once Geogus!

Yeah, Daemons, fire wizards and flame templates will hate it, but let's be honest the latter 2 are not that common and the first lot are totally broken anyway, so I don't think the anti-fire thing should ratchet up the cost too much. It's the MR you take it for - the rest is just a bonus. I'll leave it at 20 points for the mo and see how it rides. You might want to take the new and improved 25 pt sacred incense on your swords now, too...

Cloak of Aethis: - 15 points

The character wearing this cloak is immune to the effects of all poisons. Note that only the character benefits, not his mount should he have one.

then take an armour save instead, poison bothers high toughness stuff, even the special ones, they are rubbish against us, at best making the assasin s4.. which he is anyway.

Note it negates the effects of all poisons, not just the 'poisoned attacks' special rule. So, manbane and all that other jazz won't work against the bearer. It'll only ever be useful when fighting dark elves, but it's only 15 points so that's not too much of an issue.

Null Stone: - 100 points

The bearer has MR (2). Magic and daemonic items/icons within 6” of the bearer will not work. Wizards within 6” of the bearer may not cast spells. Daemons in base contact with the bearer will lose their daemonic ward saves.

now would i take it just to annoy daemons?

Yeah pretty much, though you could also shove it in a big block of SM's and watch them roll. Originally had it that all Daemons within 6" would lose their ward saves but thought that was OTT. Still not quite sure.
it is fine that all daemons w/in 6 lose their ward save.. tell them their army is cheesy and to shut up. besides, soemthing should kill daemons and this does cost 100 points. I still want to use a unit of pg, really wide, with this, then a bsb with battle banner, and the warbanner, both at the far end of the unit, so they are outside 6"....

Done! Makes more sense considering the way the item behaves as a whole. OP edited. That PG idea is mean. Expect people to frown at you.

Orb of Stars: - 30 points

If the bearer suffers a wound the orb flashes with blinding white light and transports him to another point on the battlefield, 3d6” in a random direction as determined by rolling the scatter dice. Resolve all effects of the wound received before moving the model.

invulnerable archmage! that is all i have to say.

Hoorah! But with all the arcane choices you might struggle to find the space... a useful one for a Prince who'd like to wear proper armour. As an armour item this one just didn't make any sense.

yeh it was a bit crap. This one is awesome and i'll always find space on my archmage for it. (silver wand, annullian crystal, orb of stars, scroll?)

That's a good combo...

Blessed Tome: - 25 points

welcome back old friend.

Shove this on a White Lion unit with the general leading it and let the Stubborn LD 10 good times roll!

i always used to use it to give me a general. back in the old book, when you had intrigue, you took this in some DP, giving you a unit of ld10, that guaranteed you a ld9 general, even if it was a wizard, and gave nearby chariots/silvers ld 9 for fear tests. now it isn't so important, but it is wrong in/near white lions.

Not for long - any opponent worth his salt is going to knock out that champion as soon as he can. Secondly, any white lion unit with a prince screams 'Massive Tarpit' and deserves to be avoided. Even with the Tome you won't get that many Princes in Lion units and, if you see one, you'll have to think around it. Avoid the unit, kill the champ or kill the prince.

Ring of Lileath: - 10 points

its ok, but it is one use only, it isn't special and it isn't the talisman of loec (best item in the book)
Ha ha! ok I get it, you love Loec...

tiekwando2 wrote:sorry i really dont want to finish my essay so here is another list (stolen from someone else and modified to fit, i think its funny)
Tiranoc Warhost

Ha ha ha ha! Tiek I dare you to walk into any game with that list without getting schlonged!

tiekwando2 · #25 Post by **tiekwando2** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:42 pm

hmm i'll take that bet just need to find someone that plays HE without dragons or DE (oh blackguard how you will fail) maybe the O&G player from around here (lots of boys, no fanatics, no s7, combo charge!)
Now after the first game and if i let them tailor their lists... well i'm doomed lol.

geoguswrek · #26 Post by **geoguswrek** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:50 pm

Seredain wrote:
Yep any spear-armed infantry - and the veteran seaguard a beautiful unit. But also they're 14 points per model. You won't have that many DP's (and the reapers will be on to them), so AP crossbows will be looking at other units too. Seaguard don't want to get into an even firefight with them as they're much less expendible.

seaguard are a better prospect in an even fight that archers though.

Sword of Hoeth: - 65 points

An infantry prince with GW + loec is amazing for that round, obviously. Of course this sword gives you automatic hits and you get the +2 strength bonus too - so it's powerful and consistent. Strictly a mounted prince weapon, this one, but great for hacking up so many things. I can't make it any cheaper without getting accused of cheese, and I just think it would be too good as a one-handed weapon, so I'm kinda stuck on 65. If it ends up as a bit of a niche choice, that's probably ok.
i don't know that i want to shove 65 points on a swrod, it means i can't get much prootection, maybe helm of fortune + ring of shield of saphery? that said i'd rather my favorite talisman.
Spear of the Noble Sentinel: - 40 points

Model on foot only. Counts as a spear. In addition the wielder may re-roll failed hits and wounds in close combat. Attacks from this weapon are armour piercing.

Not necessarily. Also remember that HE nobles and princes gain the +1 AS when fighting on foot with spear and shield exactly as if it was a HW + shield. So; Prince with the spear and enchanted shield gets a 2+ AS and 50 points to blow on toys, or perhaps a better choice is the Spear, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Saphery for a guarenteed 2+ re-rollable AS and a confounded enemy.

With this in mind, do you think 40 or 35 points? If it was 35 you could take enchanted shield and the Vambraces for the magic 2+ re-rolled AS and 4+ Ward. Might make it more competitive vs a GW (high strength but you could fluff your attacks, and you might want AoC elsewhere...).

you don't get +1 as for a magic hand weapon with a shield, i'm assuming the same for a spear.

Balanced Blade: - 35 points

You make a good point here. Your chap isn't quite as good vs Stegs since a) you have to pay for the horse and b) the steg's high strength, along with beasts like the Carnosaur etc, will eat into your armour (not that 3 4+ saves is bad!). On the other hand your setup is more versatile... What to do... discount the sword to 30 points?

i don't know... i don't think i'd take it for the -1 to hit or the +1 to hit, neither bother me that much, and i don't really need -2 when i have ws7. if i take my prince with GS, vambraces, sword of might, barded steed and dragon armour, that guy won't die to pretty much anything. all he is really worried about is fear and terror.

Shadow Armour: - 40 points
True, but he's much harder to pick off with shooting (you're looking at -2 at least) and he does have some protection should he end up in combat despite the light armour. You just have to make sure he doesn't get caught in the open!

because he was so easy to kill is why we need the talisman.

Captain’s Helm: - 10 points
Yep, or on a GW BsB on foot with a PG AoC bodyguard. Have you checked out Tiekwando's pheonix guard combat res bomb in his list above? 8 static CR! Total monster!

not worth it, take 20 pg, full command, warbanner and champion with the hat (and if allowed, take amulet of light too), you have a unit with 7 static, at 350 points.

[Amulet of Fire: - 20 points

Talisman of Loec again? You can only take it once Geogus!

Yeah, Daemons, fire wizards and flame templates will hate it, but let's be honest the latter 2 are not that common and the first lot are totally broken anyway, so I don't think the anti-fire thing should ratchet up the cost too much. It's the MR you take it for - the rest is just a bonus. I'll leave it at 20 points for the mo and see how it rides. You might want to take the new and improved 25 pt sacred incense on your swords now, too...

no, talisman of loec, that i put it in my swords and not on a character shows how much i need the talisman in swordsmasters.
the amulet will probably be fine, because we can get magic defence so easily now that i won't care.

Cloak of Aethis: - 15 points

Note it negates the effects of all poisons, not just the 'poisoned attacks' special rule. So, manbane and all that other jazz won't work against the bearer. It'll only ever be useful when fighting dark elves, but it's only 15 points so that's not too much of an issue.

dark elves either take manbane, which has no effect against us, or dark venom, which is n conjunction with killingblow, and its the killingblow we need to worry about. rerolling a few 1's won't make a huge difference.

Null Stone: - 100 points

Done! Makes more sense considering the way the item behaves as a whole. OP edited. That PG idea is mean. Expect people to frown at you.

its not too bad, it is very very juggernaut unit.

Blessed Tome: - 25 points

Not for long - any opponent worth his salt is going to knock out that champion as soon as he can. Secondly, any white lion unit with a prince screams 'Massive Tarpit' and deserves to be avoided. Even with the Tome you won't get that many Princes in Lion units and, if you see one, you'll have to think around it. Avoid the unit, kill the champ or kill the prince.

nah, you take a bsb with blessed tome (+1 leadership and rerolling break tests = good force multiplier) and helm of fortune (so he can run about on his own), near a unit of white lions, with your general (the unkillable guy i proposed above), for an essentially unbreakable unit.

Ring of Lileath: - 10 points

its ok, but it is one use only, it isn't special and it isn't the talisman of loec (best item in the book)
Ha ha! ok I get it, you love Loec...

yes, its the fourth best item in the game, after siren song, pendant, ring of hotek (in that order). unless i've missed something?

Tiek: try it against woodelves to show you why 8 chariots don't work.
To be honest it works better if you take 6 tiranocs, 4 characters on tiranocs plus a few eagles.

Seredain · #27 Post by **Seredain** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:33 pm

Chaps,

Thanks for all the input I’ve received so far. It’s really helped me to iron out some of the niggles of this revision. I’ve done a bit of play-testing over the weekend following on from my very helpful discussion with Geoguswrek over some of the magic items. The following changes to the list and the OP have now been made:

Amulet of Fire still protects the whole unit from fire but now carries only MR(1) for 20 points. MR (2) plus fire protection was too good and made BoAP redundant.

Sword of Hoeth is now a one-handed sword. With 2-hands only it was out-competed by a GW on foot and by the Blade of Sea Gold, Sword of Might or the lances on horseback. 65 points was a lot to pay for a horse-prince with a severely limited armour save.

Having been a bit worried about making it overpowered, I did some maths relating to the benefits bestowed by the sword. Technically the prince will hit on a 3+ against most things, so the auto-hit is usually only a ‘+1 or +2 to hit’ bonus. Certainly on a WS7 Str 4 elf it isn’t as useful as an auto-wound bonus on the old sword, so I deemed it was worth few enough points, accounting for the HE discount, to allow the +2 strength bonus in one hand. 65 points in weaponry is a big investment for a T3 character but hopefully this sword is now good enough value to encourage it a bit more, especially on cavalry princes. Also allows combos with the new shield options we have.

Balanced Blade isn't very killy and so is currently easily out-competed by a GW on foot with AoC etc. It’s been kept ‘model on foot only’ but reduced from 35 to 25 points.

Spear of the Noble Sentinel is another weapon out-competed by the on-foot GW. I’ve reduced it from 40 to 35 points. It’s awesome value when defending against charges by fast-moving foes, hopefully decent value otherwise.

I'm going to play a few more proper games with this list over the next few weeks and see if I can find any broken or overly crap stuff. Please chime in if you spot either of these characteristics!

Lord Anathir wrote:I'd like to see dragons becoming lvl1/2s and having a Lore of Dragons that dragon mages can cast from as well. and maybe an item that allows regular mages/archmages to do so as well.

LA, the joy of this whole thing for me has so far been that I've deviated from the current HE list as little as possible. This made making it and keeping it balanced much easier for me, and makes it easier to remember and easier to play for anyone who uses it. In a non-practical sense, only changing little things (or at least the avoidance of changing the overall feel and simplicity of the list), meant for me that the whole project didn't stink of 'pipe dream'. I think giving dragons spells is a step too far toward total revolution - it's a can of worms I'm unwilling to open!

A dragon special character for High Elves is a feasable idea and could include spell-casting abilities, but in principle I think our magic phase is about right in this revision - I loved the cheap phase you built above, for example.

tiekwando2 · #28 Post by **tiekwando2** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:22 am

hmm makes for an interesting prince and noble options (note often i forgot to list the mundane items, but usually barded horse, dragon armor, shield, lance, remove items as necessary depending on if on foot or magic items given)

Possible Builds?:
Sword of Hoeth, Helm of Fortune, DP Kit gives 1+ re-rolls
Sword of Hoeth, Waystone Shield, Guardian Phoenix, 2+/5++ MR(1)
SoH, Golden Shield, 1+, -1 to hit

Leaping Gold, HoF, Loec, DP Kit (infantry killer)
Leaping Gold, Armor of Protection, 2+/4++ or 4+/4++ on a dragon

question is are any of these worth the points you will be paying for a prince on a horse especially now that DPs are s4. In blocks of units good killing addition, put in PG perhaps.

Leaping Gold, Armor of Protection might offer an alternative Dragon Rider, especially with the dragon armor nerf.

Spear of Noble Sentinel and Captains Helm just seem so fluffy together in a SpearElf Veteran unit... not that great of a combo though 3+ saves. Still no cavalry or monsters will want to charge the front so it has its uses.

Balanced Blade, Helm of Fortune 2+ rerolls -1 to hit hits on 2s (most of the time), in comparison to 2+ s6 (AOC GW)
better at not dying, maybe new bsb option in place of BSB, Helm of Fortune, DP kit (dont think its as good, less movement)

Balanced Blade, Golden Shield, R Gem/Ring of Corin/R of Fury for Medium Magic builds

Magic Weapons:
Get a proper rank-and-file killer (BoLG) and knight killer (BoSG) as well as a useful all around weapon (SoH). Spear of the Noble Sentinal has potential to make fluffy noble, kills knights that charge, ok otherwise. Balanced blade, at 25 points can give it to PG champ who challanges a lot, or you could just give AOC (but AOC has better chance of being on another character)

Biggest disapointment is that we still have nothing that can take down monsters with armor saves/regen, nothing causes d6 or d3 wounds (which is useful and something a GW cant do) or instantly kills them (blade of realities). Foe Bane is moderate at best against the "worst" monsters, such as Dragons, Hydras and new abominations (maybe) because doesn't alter their armor save. I guess i also wish there was something that was flaming seeing as how it seems to be passed out like candy now a days.

Magic Armor:

Most of the expensive stuff wont get used, most of the cheap stuff is awesome, pretty much 30 points and down is amazing, 35 and up is niche. IMHO. Golden Crown might be used and gives some good avantages for reasonable price, Armour of Protection maybe but is probably outclassed by AOC and helm of fortune (maybe not on dragons though for offensive purposes)

Starlance, Armor of Protection, Amulet of Fire, gives whole model immunity to fire, gives limited protection from beast cowers.

Talismans:
Useful as ever, Cloak of Aethis i dont see the point in that much, don't really like anti-army items but that's personal. Sacred incense at 25 points means i can give it to Swordmasters... not much else to say really, didn't change too much.

Arcane:
Discussed already but useful and can get alternate ways of getting magic defense, Annullian, Jewel of Dawn for 2 extra, Radiant Gem and Jewel for 2 dd from a noble. Drain magic bound can have fun bonuses

Enchanted Items:
Null gets better, good thing i think, Ring of Corin back in its rightful section, much better and has a use. Blessed Tome, another 25 point item i really want on, well anyone especially if no prince general, or prince is on a dragon. Ring of Lileath, not game breaking but another champ item. (now there are too many, i have to make choices

)

anyways my analysis if i was looking at the book from a its a new army book perspective on magic items.

Seredain · #29 Post by **Seredain** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:28 am

Cheers Tiek.

In this list your mounted prince will probably want to be with Silver Helms, since they need the support more and can be fielded in larger units for static CR. DP's with an item-toting champion will fare well by themselves (unless they get shot).

Thanks for the great comments overall. I've picked up on a few of your key points.

tiekwando2 wrote: Magic Weapons:

Biggest disapointment is that we still have nothing that can take down monsters with armor saves/regen, nothing causes d6 or d3 wounds (which is useful and something a GW cant do) or instantly kills them (blade of realities). Foe Bane is moderate at best against the "worst" monsters, such as Dragons, Hydras and new abominations (maybe) because doesn't alter their armor save. I guess i also wish there was something that was flaming seeing as how it seems to be passed out like candy now a days.

Magic Armor:

Most of the expensive stuff wont get used, most of the cheap stuff is awesome, pretty much 30 points and down is amazing, 35 and up is niche. IMHO. Golden Crown might be used and gives some good avantages for reasonable price, Armour of Protection maybe but is probably outclassed by AOC and helm of fortune (maybe not on dragons though for offensive purposes)

Talismans:
Useful as ever, Cloak of Aethis i dont see the point in that much, don't really like anti-army items but that's personal.

Cloak of Aethis: yeah it's there for colour as much as anything. We don't really need any different kinds of protecty items - it just feels like the kind of item the High Elves would have. Like Pendant of Vengeance but even more likely.

EDIT: Hmm... but it does just kind of suck...

Golden Crown will often be a niche item but also carries a ton of potential for a tank prince. Put it on a mounted prince with a lance, shield and full armour along with the Vambraces of Defence. For 100 points of items you have a Prince with 1+ re-rollable AS, 4+ WS, MR(1) and ignores effects of first wound received!

I totally agree about Foe Bane. As it stands no-one will ever take it except maybe a hero with the Dragonscale Shield. I don't like that it's a chaos weapon either as I honestly don't see the High Elves touching anything made by Chaos with a barge-pole. Having said that, it is nice to have a 25 point weapon...

It's important to note that it's impossible to make the sword properly better without upping points cost. Here's an ammendment I've just put together which does both those things: not playtested yet or anything, but I've tried to make it into a less-legendary Daemon Slayer sword like Sunfang. I haven't given it 'D3 wounds' since I'm worried about making it OTT - as it stands I don't know how I'd cost 'D3 wounds' so until I get a grip on that I'll leave it out. I have a feeling I'd end up making an 80-point+ sword and that would be pretty counterproductive!

Here's the new-make sword as it stands- thoughts?

Foe Bane: - 40 points

Forged during Aenarion’s war against the daemons, the black steel of this blade glows with ancient runes of raging red fire. Some say that the sword fills its wielder with a desire for glory never to be sated, for it was made to conquer the greatest and darkest of foes. Certainly it has lead many great heroes to an untimely death.

Attacks with this sword are made with +1 strength and are flaming attacks. When attacking models of unit strength 3 or greater, or any daemon, the bearer will wound on a roll of 2+. Note that in this instance the bearer will still count as having +1 strength for the purposes of modifying armour saves.

EDIT: minor edit to fix wording of Foe Bane.

tiekwando2 · #30 Post by **tiekwando2** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:28 pm

I like the new foe bane better as it modifies armor by 2, wounds on 2 and gets rid of regen, good against almost all monsters that i can think of off the top of my head. In addition it is still good against basic creatures with regen (nurgle, sometimes Grave Guard)

Makes an anti-monster prince possible
Foebane, Dragonscale Shield, Guardian Phoenix, DA (loec?) on a horse is ok (takes most advantage of Dragonscale Shield, but hard to catch monsters) on stardragon is good as well (most monsters dont like attacking our dragon)
For a sneaky trick (dont know how often it will work) use a mage with shadow basic spell and assassinate a monster 1st or 2nd turn.

I dont know how to price d3/d6 wounds at all, if i were to try to design one i would just steal an item from another book and give a discount (cheating i know), for dwarves the rune of D6 wounds costs 70 points. So should be 55-60 (15-20% discount)

Ulthuan

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