Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

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Maxwell123
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:08 pm
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Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#1 Post by Maxwell123 »

Okay, it has been a long time since I've done this, but after reading through Gondarion and Knightwire's lists, as well as a few others, I decided to write up my own list of how I'd like the High Elves to be.

I envision the High Elves now the same way I envisioned them 10 years ago - an elite fighting force highly skilled and disciplined in almost every department of warfare, but small in number and fragile. I've always seen the High Elves as the true elite army of Warhammer (and don't mistake most elite to equal I think they are the most powerful - they're not, Chaos is).
What I mean is, whatever they do, they do virtually to perfection. Their mages are the most knowledgeable and skilled magic users in the world next to the Slann. Their average citizens are highly trained, disciplined warriors whose dwindling population has given them a sense of urgency to survive. Their elites are amongst the most skilled and feared warriors in the whole world. The description on page 4 of the High Elf army book pretty much describes the High Elves as I've pictured them for the last 10 years.

It's a pity that the army list didn't quite live up to this. I like a lot of what was done, but like many others, I'm no fan of Always Strike First as an army wide rule.

Always Strikes First as an army wide rule representing a whole race is completely unbelievable and unrealistic even in a Fantasy world such as Warhammer. In gaming terms, it breaks one of the core mechanics (i.e. that charging units always strike first). However, I will admit that the rule did have the benefit of giving the army cohesion it lacked in 6th edition (and before).

However, I'm not sure that you really can add one single clause to accurately define the High Elves as a race. So I thought about potential alternatives and what type of rule would really highlight and define the eliteness of the High Elf forces.

"Martial Prowess" is about the most perfect name I can imagine to define the High Elves. It's a pity they used the rule just to effect Spearelves/Sea Guards.

I see the High Elves as the masters of their chosen weaponry. It's not so much that they are individually more skilled than the other races..but more that the combination of their training, discipline, natural skill and their natural Elven traits enable them to truly master their chosen weapons and maximise the benefit they get from them. That's what got me to seeing Martial Prowess as a governing rule for the High Elves related to the weapons they use.

Anyway, the below is my ideal ASF-less High Elf list. Please note that some of the magic item ideas and Honours have been taken from Gondarion and Knightwire's lists, or are from our old 6th edition High Elf rewrite forum. Some of the magic items (Mask of the Anulii and Daggers of Vengeance to name two) are also from old lists. I've also created several new magic items which I feel are really Elven in nature.

What I've essentially done is combined a lot of what I feel are the most characterful and suitable ideas for rules and magic items and combine it all into this complete list. I've tried to give the High Elves a more magical feel and have emphasized the skills of their warriors without trying to make them over the top. I've powered various units up a little, but in what I feel is an appropriate and Elven way. Honours are in the list, not counting to the magic item allowance, limited to 1 per character and very moderate in power.

I was going to make the Honours alter the army structure, but in the end decided against it. Having all the provincial based units (Swordmasters, White Lions, Dragon Princes, Reavers, Phoenix Guards, Tiranoc Chariots, Lion Chariots) as a Special choice makes a lot of sense and I think making the honours alter the structure is unnecessary, particularly with the increased number of Special choices we get over other armies this edition anyway. Making the Honours allow you to move various provincial units to a core choice not counting toward minimum as some have suggested would be gratuitous.
I also dislike the idea of province specific Honours...I think discipline/skill specific honours are much more realistic and suitable. Swordmasters are made up of warriors from all over Ulthuan for a start. And who's to say a Cothique born warrior with a love of horses wouldn't move to Ellyrion or an Avelornian with a fascination for Dragons wouldn't move to Caledor, or a young warrior from any realm whose dream is to protect his King wouldn't join the White Lions or Phoenix Guards?? That's why my Honours, even the mage based ones, are all skill/focus based.

GW did a fantastic job with High Magic this edition. It's much better than the 6th edition version and I don't think there's a need to change any of the spells. I did want to increase the magical feel of the army as a whole, which is why I added 4 mage related honours, more bound spells, gave all rank and file units an option to carry magic standards and have given Archmages the option to take up to 2 arcane items instead of 1.

With the magic items, I've gone for augmenting strengths rather than counteracting weaknesses for the most part. I don't feel the Elves should be hard to kill...and you should see by my magic items that I haven't really added a huge amount of protection for them.
For example, a hunter magic weapon that further increases their strength giving them an even better chance of wounding monsters, a swordmaster magic great weapon granting an extra attack thereby increasing their chance to land a killing blow, a magic item for Dragon mages increasing the strength of their fire damage spells sybolic of their reckless but powerful nature, a suit of armour for Shadowlords with the Steed of Shadows spell from Lore of Shadow contained within as a bound spell, etc. I think particularly for Elves its more appropriate to augment their strengths rather than cover weaknesses which, really, define their race as much as their strengths do.


ARMY RULES

Valour of Ages
When fighting Dark Elves, all models with this rule may re-roll failed psychology tests.

Martial Prowess
As a race, the martial skill of the High Elves is second to none. No other race, including other Elven races, can match the superb combination of speed, discipline, individual skill and mastery of their weapons that the High Elves possess. They have perfected the use of their weapons and, combined with their unparalleled ability to fight with their comrades as a united force in combat, the High Elves are more effective in wielding the same weapons as warriors from other races.

High Elves are masters of warfare and represent the ultimate elite fighting force. They have perfected the use of their chosen weapons and gain the following benefits:

Spears
All High Elves on foot equipped with spears may fight in an additional rank.
High Elves on foot equipped with spears and shields gain +1 armour save on any turn they are charged.

Halberds
High Elves on foot equipped with halberds, even magical ones, confer an additional -2 armour save modifier on any turn they are charged to their front.

Great Weapons
All High Elves armed with great weapons, even magical ones, ignore the Strikes Last rule.

Lances
All mounted High Elves count as having +1 Weapon Skill on any turn in which they charge with a spear or lance, even magical ones.

Bows/Longbows
All High Elves using bows or longbows, even magical ones, do not suffer the usual -1 to hit penalty for firing at long range.

Speed of Asuryan
Such is the supreme skill and discipline of the High Elf infantry, its soldiers react to the orders of their commanders instantly, enabling them to turn and change their battle formations much quicker and more efficiently than any other army.

Any High Elf unit, whether on foot or mounted, containing either a Unit Champion, Noble or Prince may turn without surrendering any of their movement. If In addition, they can add/deduct up to 5 models to/from its front rank surrendering only a quarter of their movement, instead of half like other armies. Apart from this, High Elves otherwise follow all the normal rules for movement and manoeuvring.

Nagarythe Hatred
Hate all enemies and if fighting Dark Elves, the effects of Hatred last for every turn in combat.

Swordmasters
All models subject to this rule have the Always strike first ability, regardless of the weapon they are wielding.

Woodsmen
May move through wooded terrain without penalty.

Lion Cloaks
+2 armour save vs. Shooting

Lion Claw
When fighting larger than man sized creatures, any model with this rule will cause not 1 but D3 wounds for each unsaved wound in the first round of every combat. This applies to Ogre sized creatures as well as large target monsters such as Dragons and Greater Daemons.

Caledorian Pride
All High Elves with Caledorian Pride are completely immune to panic from all models that do not have this rule, but may never refuse a challenge. The Dragon Princes may never use the leadership of characters that do not have it, including the army general, and no character without Caledorian Pride may ever join a unit that has it.

Affinity
Any dragon ridden by a High Elf does not have to take a Monster Reaction test if character is slain. Instead the dragon will remain under the control of the High Elf player but will Hate the unit who killed the character for the remainder of the battle. Conversely, if a dragon is slain, then the character will Hate the unit that killed his dragon for the remainder of the battle.

Warrior Mage
Character may exchange any spell for Flaming Sword of Rhuin instead of Fireball.

Reckless
Mage must use an extra ‘free’ power die when casting any spell.


CHARACTERS

LORDS

Prince 140 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan
Stats: As is
Equipment Options: As is, except Great Weapon now costs 15 points
Mount options: As is, except Star Dragons may only be ridden by a Dragon Lord and now take both a hero and rare slot in addition to Lord slot. Hunter characters may be placed in a Lion Chariot (replacing one of the crew) for +140 points.

Archmage 220 points
Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 3 wizard. May upgrade to L4 for +35 points
Stats: As is
Equipment options: As is
Mount options: As is
Level 4 Archmages may carry up to 2 Arcane items instead of the usual 1.

HEROES

Noble 80 points
Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages; Speed of Asuryan
Stats: As is
Equipment options: As is, except cost of great weapon increased to 10
Mount options: As is, except a Hunter may choose to ride in Lion Chariot (replacing one of the crew) for +140 points.

Dragon Mage 350 points

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 3 3 2 6 2 8

Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess ; Reckless; Warrior Mage
Magic: Level 1 Mage. May upgrade to Level 2 for +35 points. Always uses Lore of Fire.
Stats: As is
Equipment: Weapon options as per Noble. May not purchase any armour, magical or otherwise.
Mount: Sun Dragon.

Mage 100 points
Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Magic: Level 1 wizard. May upgrade to L2 for +35 points
Stats: As is
Equipment options: As is
Mount options: As is

CORE

Archers 11 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan
Stats: As is.
Equipment: Hand weapon, longbow.
Command: Standard bearer may have a magic standard worth up to 25 points.

Spearelves 9 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan; First amongst equals
Stats: As is.
Equipment: Hand weapon, spear, light armour, shield.
Command: Standard bearer may have a magic standard worth up to 25 points.

Sea Guard 14 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan; First Amongst Equals
Stats: As is.
Equipment: Spear, bow, light armour, shield
Command: Standard bearer may have a magic standard worth up to 25 points.

Silver Helms 22 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan
Stats: As is.
Equipment: As is.
Options: As is.
Command: Standard bearer may have a magic standard worth up to 25 points.
Note: Silver Helms do not count toward minimum core requirements.

First Amongst Equals
A single Core Unit in the army may be given a magic standard worth up to 50 points.


SPECIAL

Ellyrian Reavers 17 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan; Fast Cavalry
Stats: As is
Equipment: As is
Options: As is
Command: Harbinger has 2A instead of BS5. Standard bearer may have a magic banner worth up to 25 points.

Dragon Princes 33 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan; Dragon Armour; Caledorian Pride
Stats: As is
Equipment: As is
Options: Any unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Drake master may carry up to 25 points worth of magic items

Sword Masters 15 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan; Swordmasters
Stats: I7, Otherwise as is.
Equipment: As is
Command: Any Unit May have a magic banner up to 50 points. Bladelord may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.

White Lions 15 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess, Speed of Asuryan; Woodsmen; Stubborn; Immune to Fear; Lion Cloak; Lion Claw
Stats: As is.
Equipment: As is
Command: Any Unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Guardian may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.

Phoenix Guard 15 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Speed of Asuryan; Cause Fear; 4+ ward save.
Stats: As is
Equipment: As is
Command: Any Unit may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Keeper of the Flame may have up to 25 points worth of magic items.

Shadow Warriors 16 points
Special Rules: Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Nagarythe Hatred; Scout; Skirmish
Stats: As is.
Equipment: Two hand weapons, longbow, light armour.

Tiranoc Chariot 85 points
Special Rules: Chariot, Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages
Stats: WS5, Otherwise As is
Equipment: As is

Lion Chariot of Chrace 140 points
Special Rules: Chariot; Valour of Ages; Martial Prowess; Cause Fear
Stats: As is
Equipment: As is

RARE

Repeater Bolt Thrower 100 points
Special Rules: Martial Prowess, Valour of Ages, Volley
Stats: As is
Equipment: Hand weapon, light armour

Great Eagle 50 points
Special Rules: Fly
Stats: As is
Equipment: As is

HIGH MAGIC
Drain Magic: As is.
1. Shield of Saphery 5+: As is.
2. Curse of Arrow Attraction 6+: As is.
3. Fury of Khaine 8+: As is.
4. Courage of Aenarion 8+: As is.
5. Flames of the Phoenix 11+: As is.
6. Vaul's Unmaking 12+: As is.

*High Elf Mages get +1 to dispel (exactly same as existing rules)
*Level 4 Archmages may take up to 2 Arcane Items instead of the usual 1.

HONOURS
High Elf characters except Dragon mages may choose Honours from the list below. Honours do not count toward the magic item allowance. A character may take a maximum of one Honour (with the lone exception of the Pure of Heart character).

Pure of Heart (0points): MUST be given to one character. That character, and any unit he is with except Phoenix Guards become Immune to Panic. If the Pure of Heart character is placed with a unit of Phoenix Guards, they will instead become Immune to Psychology.
If character is slain, enemy will be awarded an additional 100 victory points. This Honour does not count toward the character’s one Honour limit, so he may choose one additional honour.

Hunter(25points): Character must fight either on foot or, alternatively, can be placed in a Lion Chariot . The Hunter is Immune to Fear, wears a Lion Cloak and must be armed with either a mundane or magical great weapon or spear. In addition, he has the Lion Claw special ability.

Swordmaster(30points): Character always fights on foot so may not be mounted. He has +1WS and gains the Swordmasters special rule. In addition, he has the Killing Blow special ability. However, he may never refuse a challenge to a model with Unit Strength of 4 or less and if loses a challenge to such a model, the opponent will be awarded an additional 50 victory points.

Shadowlord(20 points) : Character must fight on foot and either alone or in a unit of Shadow Warriors. He gains the special rules Scout and Nagarythe Hatred.

Dragon Lord(30 points): Character is subject to Caledorian Pride and can re-roll failed rolls to hit on any turn he charges, regardless of the weapon he is using. He must be mounted on either a barded Elven Steed or a dragon. If he is the army general and mounted on a dragon, then all models with Caledorian Pride in the army may use his leadership providing they can see him, regardless of range. A Dragon Lord may choose to ride the mighty Star Dragon.

Horsemaster(15 points): Character must ride unbarded Elven Steed and be alone or in a unit of Reavers. He follows all the rules for Fast Cavalry.

Loremaster(20 points): Mage knows an additional spell from the lore he chooses.

Seer(20 points): Mage may choose one of his spells.

Channeler(20 points): Mage generates an additional power die in each of his own magic phases which he may use in addition to his maximum number power dice allowed to cast spells.

Spellmaster(20 points): The mage must nominate one of his spells at the start of the battle. He will gain +1 to his casting rolls for that spell for duration of the battle.


MAGIC ITEMS

Common Items

Sword of Striking 10 points
Sword of Battle 15 Points
Sword of Might 15 points
Biting Blade 5 points
Talisman of Protection 5 points
Enchanted Shield 10 points
Staff of Sorcery 40 points
Power Stone: 20 points
Dispel Scroll: 20 points
War Banner 20 points

MAGIC WEAPONS

Sword of Hoeth 60 points
All hits wound on an unmodified 2+. Armour saves are modified by the Strength of the wearer in the normal way. However, no ward or regeneration saves may taken against wounds inflicted by the Sword of Hoeth.

Blade of Leaping Gold 55 points
The Blade confers +3 Attacks on the character wielding it.

Bow of the Seafarer 60 points
Treat the Bow of the Seafarer as a normal longbow with the following exception. Resolve each hit like a single bolt from a Bolt Thrower. Note that you may shoot after moving (but not marching)and may stand & shoot with it.

Star Lance 40 points
Mounted Character only. Lance. This weapon follows the rules for lances, except that the bearer receives +3 Strength, instead of +2, on the turn he charges. In addition, while mounted, when he charges no armour saves can be made against this weapon.

Reaver Bow 40 points
Treat the Reaver Bow as a normal longbow with the following exceptions: the bearer may shoot three times at the same target in each of his Shooting phases and any hits are resolved at Strength 5.

Blade of Sea Gold 40 points
No armour saves may be taken against wounds caused by this weapon.

The White Sword 40 points
Swordmaster only. Great weapon. The White Sword follows all the normal rules for great weapons. In addition, bearer gains +1 attack.

Charoi 35 points
Hunter only. Great weapon. Charoi follows all the normal rules for great weapons, except will grant the bearer +3 Strength instead of the usual +2 Strength.

Bow of Fire 25 points
Longbow. Treat the Bow of Fire as a normal longbow with the following exceptions: it has a 36” range, the bearer may shoot twice at the same target in each of his Shooting phases and any hits are resolved at Strength 4 and count as Magical, Flaming attacks.

Silver Spear 25 points
Counts as a spear and follows all the normal rules for spears. In addition, grants bearer +1 Strength. Once per battle, the bearer may throw the spear at a nominated target within 8” in his own Shooting Phase. Normal shooting rules apply. When bearer does this, resolve to hit using bearer's BS in usual way. A successful hit is resolved at Strength 8 and causes not 1 but D3 wounds for each unsaved wound inflicted. Once the spear is thrown, it is considered lost and has no longer provides any benefit whatsoever to the bearer for remainder of battle.

Asur Blade 25 points
Forged in the flames of Asuryan during the reign of Aethis, this massive halberd has been a favoured weapon of the guardians of the Shrine of Asuryan for over a thousand years.
Keeper of the Flame only. Halberd. Follows all the normal rules for halberds. All attacks made by this halberd count as flaming attacks and confer an additional -2 armour save modifier at all times. Note that on any turn the bearer is charged, he will still gain the usual -2 save modifier that Halberd wielding High Elves confer.

Foe Bane 25 points
All hits on a target with 2 or more wounds on its starting profile will always Wound on a 2+. Armour saves are modified by the Strength of the bearer as normal.

Dragonblade Lance 20 points
Drakemaster or Dragon Lord only. Lance. This weapon follows the rules for lances, except that all attacks count as flaming and, on any turn the bearer charges, armour piercing also.

Daggers of Vengeance 15 points
Shadowlord only. Counts as two hand weapons. In addition, attacks made by these daggers count as armour piercing.

MAGIC ARMOUR

Armour of Protection 50 points
Counts as heavy armour which can be combined with other equipment normally. Grants the wearer a 4+ ward save.

Golden Shield 35 points
Counts as a shield and can be combined with other equipment normally. In addition, all successful attempts to hit the bearer in combat must be re-rolled.

Radiant Armour 35 points
This glimmering suit of armour was enchanted to be absorb the impact of even the strongest of blows.
Counts as heavy armour which can be combined with other equipment normally. In addition, all attacks against the bearer from Shooting and Close combat are resolved at -1 Strength.

Temakador’s Gauntlets 30 points
These gauntlets grant a 6+ armour save which can be combined with other equipment normally. Bearer also gains a 5+ Ward Save against attacks of Strength 4 or higher.

Shadow Armour 30 points
Shadowlord only. Counts as light armour which can be combined with other equipment normally. In addition, the armour contains the Steed of Shadows spell from the Lore of Shadow as a Bound Spell (Power level 3), which may be cast once per magic phase like an ordinary spell. The only exception is that the spell contained within this armour can only be cast on the wearer himself, not any other character within 12” like the normal version of Steed of Shadows.

Armour of Caledor 25 points
Confers a 2+ armour save, which cannot be improved by any means. In addition, the Armour of Caledor follows the normal rules for Dragon armour.

Helm of Fortune 25 points
This helm confers a 6+ armour save which can be combined with other equipment normally. The wearer may re-roll failed armour saves.

Dragonscale Shield 20 points
This shield confers a 5+ armour save which can be combined with other equipment normally. Also gives the bearer a 6+ ward save.

Mask of the Merlord 10 points
Model on foot only. This mask confers a 6+ armour save which can be combined with other equipment normally. In addition, the wearer can move over marsh, rivers, lakes or any other water features without penalty, and will benefit from soft cover while in such terrain.

TALISMANS

Vambraces of Defence 55 points
Gives the wearer a 4+ ward save. In addition, the wearer may re-roll failed armour saves.

Loremaster’s Cloak 40 points
Gives the wearer and the unit he is with a 2+ Ward Save against wounds caused by spells. It has no effect against shooting or close combat attacks.

Talisman of Saphery 35 points
The magical weapons of enemy models will have no special effects whilst they are in base contact with the bearer of this talisman. Treat the magic weapon as a normal one of its type

Sacred Incense 30 points
All shooting directed at the bearer and any unit he is with suffers a -1 to hit penalty.

Guardian Phoenix 25 points
Gives the wearer a 5+ ward save.

Amulet of Fire 20 points
Gives the wearer Magic Resistance (1). In addition, the wearer cannot be harmed by Flaming Attacks.

ARCANE ITEMS

Book of Hoeth 100 points
Any spell cast by the mage with this book will be cast with Irresistible Force on any successful casting roll which includes any double, except a Miscast.

Vortex Shard 75 points
One use only. The bearer may use the Vortex Shard at the start of any enemy magic phase. The Magic Phase ends immediately, all Remains in Play spells are dispelled, and power dice stored in magic items are lost.

Gem of Sunfire 45 points
Dragon Mage only. All damage hits from spells successfully cast by the bearer are resolved at an additional +1 Strength (i.e. Fireball spell will now inflict D6 S5 hits instead of D6 S4 hits). Note that this also includes the Flaming Sword of Rhuin spell, which will now grant the Mage with this gem +4 Strength instead of +3.

Starwood Staff 40 points
The Starwood staff gives +1 to all casting attempts by the Wizard carrying it.

Sigil of Asuryan 40 points
Automatically dispels one enemy spell. In addition, roll a D6. On a 3+, the spell is destroyed and the casting Wizard cannot use that spell again for the remainder of the battle. One use only.

Annulian Crystal 40 points
During the Enemy’s Magic Phase, the Crystal allows the bearer to remove one dice from the opponent’s pile of Power Dice and add it to his own Dispel Dice pile.

Staff of Saphery 30 points
Bearer can maintain a single Remains in Play spell whilst casting other spells normally. Once cast, a Remains in Play spell will last until it is dispelled, until the Wizard chooses to end it (which he can do at any time), attempts to cast another spell which Remains in Play, leaves the table, or is slain.

Mask of the Anulii 20 points
Wearer must nominate a single Great Eagle at the start of the game. Any spell cast by the wearer may use this Eagle’s line of sight for spell casting. This means that the Mage can cast spells at targets he cannot see but which are in Line of Sight of the Great Eagle. Note that range is still measured from the mage, not the Great Eagle.

Ring of Corin 20 points
Bound spell (Power Level 3). One use only. The Ring of Corin may cast its Bound Spell in the Magic Phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the ring itself. The Ring of Corin contains the Vaul's Unmaking spell described in the High Magic spell list.

Staff of Solidity 20 points
This staff makes the Mage immune to the effects of his first Miscast. Note that a Miscast spell still fails regardless of the actual dice score rolled.

Jewel of The Dusk 15 points
The jewel gives the Mage +1 Power Dice in each of his own magic phases.

Silver Wand 10 points
One use only. Bearer can reroll any and all dice in attempting to cast a single spell. This can never result in Irresistible Force, nor can it prevent a Miscast.

ENCHANTED ITEMS

Null Stone 100 points
No wizard within 6" of the bearer may cast any spells. No other magic or rune item within 6" of the bearer will work. Treat them as normal weapons, banners, etc of the appropriate type. Note that this applies to all friendly wizards and magic items as well as enemy ones.

Radiant Gem of Hoeth 50 points
The wearer counts as a Level 1 High Elf Mage who can cast spells normally whilst wearing mundane armour. Magical armour will still disrupt his spell casting however. This has no effect on characters who are already Wizards.

Folariath's Robe 45 points
Model on foot only. The wearer of this cloak can only be hit by magical attacks (for example, Magic weapons and attacks from Daemons and ethereal creatures). In addition, the bearer may not strike blows in combat, or shoot with a ranged weapon, although he can still cast spells as normal.

Ring of Fury 40 points
Bound spell (Power Level 3). This ring may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic Phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the ring itself. The Ring of Fury contains the Fury of Khaine spell from the High Magic spell list.

Amulet of Restoration 30 points
Bound Spell (Power Level 3). This amulet may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic Phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the amulet itself. The Amulet of Restoration contains the Healing Energy spell from the Lore of Light.

Dragonhorn 25 points
Forged in ancient times by the Dragon Princes of old to temporarily bolster the power of their mighty mounts, this horn was created to help the Elves hold off the overwhelming tide of Chaos forces sweeping across their lands.
Dragon Lord mounted on a dragon only. One use only. Bearer may blow the horn at the start of any close combat phase. When he does this, his dragon will automatically strike first with Weapon Skill 10 for that phase only. Note that the magic powers of the horn only affect the bearer’s dragon mount, not the bearer himself.

Horn of Ellyrion 25 points
Created by the greatest horsemasters of Ellyrion, this horn can spur the mighty steeds of Ulthuan to even greater acts of swiftness when the need arises.
Horsemaster only. The Elven Steed mount of the bearer and the Elven Steeds of any unit he is with gain +1 Movement (+2 when charging/marching as normal) whilst the bearer is alive.

MAGIC BANNERS

Battle Banner 80 points
Adds +D6 Combat Resolution to any close combat the bearer (and his unit) is involved in.

Banner of the World Dragon 60 points
The unit is completely immune to all spell effects, whatever their source. This includes friendly spells, bound items, and spells with areas of effect that were cast on nearby units, etc. Spells which are cast on another unit, such as the Flaming Sword of Rhuin, will work as normal, as will all magic weapons used to attack them.

Banner of Sorcery 50 points
The banner adds +D3 power dice to your main pile in each of your own magic phases.

Banner of Courage 50 points
This mystic banner gives the Elves the strength to endure in even the most dire of circumstances against powerful and deadly of opponents
The number of unsaved wounds inflicted by the opponent on the unit bearing this Banner is halved (rounding down to the nearest whole number, to a minimum of 1) for purposes of combat resolution. So for example, if the opponent inflicts 5 unsaved wounds on the unit, then it would count as having inflicted only 2 unsaved wounds for determining combat results.

Banner of Avelorn 50 points
Woven by the Maidens of Avelorn and enchanted by the Everqueen herself, this banner weakens the magic that binds Daemons and Undead and penetrates their defences.
The unit’s attacks count as magical. Daemons in combat with the unit who fail their instability test, as well as any Undead unit who loses combat to the unit bearing this banner, will suffer an additional D3 wounds. No saves of any kind allowed. In addition, the ward saves of any Undead or Daemon in base contact with the unit carrying this banner will cease to work for as long as they remain in base contact.

Standard of Balance 45 points
The bearer, the unit he is with and all models in combat, friend or foe, are immune to psychology. In addition, all of these models lose hatred and frenzy if they have it, and can never gain it back as long as they are in base contact with the bearer or his unit.

Banner of Mists 25 points
This banner was ensorcelled by mages to harness the mists of Yvresse, shrouding the Elves in battle to protect them from enemy missile fire.
Core units and Silver Helms only. Unit counts as being in soft cover. Where the unit is already provided soft cover (for example, is inside a wood), then it will count as being provided hard cover. If the unit is already benefitting from hard cover, then the Banner of Mists provides no additional benefit.

Banner of Arcane Protection 25 points
The units gets Magic Resistance (2).

Lion Standard 25 points
Unit is immune to fear and terror.

Banner of Ellyrion 15 points
The unit treats difficult ground as open ground for the purposes of movement.
Last edited by Maxwell123 on Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:36 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#2 Post by Giladis »

It is nice.

The points need refining but it is definatlly a playable list.

Good work.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#3 Post by Maxwell123 »

Giladis wrote:It is nice.

The points need refining but it is definatlly a playable list.

Good work.
Thanks Giladis. Have you got any specific suggestions on the points refining? I would like to tidy this list up a bit and maybe add in the Handmaidens as a Rare choice also, so any feedback would be appreciated.

I also was thinking about adding a few more magic items to round out the list.
Last edited by Maxwell123 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#4 Post by Shandiar »

A wellrounded list with many options. Not overpowered though some things might have to be playtested.

I would like to see more choices for equipment, options to make SH medium cavalry and change their competing role with DP.

But overall well done and good job
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#5 Post by Maxwell123 »

Shandiar wrote:A wellrounded list with many options. Not overpowered though some things might have to be playtested.

I would like to see more choices for equipment, options to make SH medium cavalry and change their competing role with DP.

But overall well done and good job
Thanks Shandiar.

Yeah, you make a good point about Silver Helms. At the moment, there really isn't much to distinguish them at all that different from Dragon Princes, apart from being cheaper and weaker. That said, the Silver Helms never have had that distinguishment. In function, they've always worked pretty much the same as the Dragon Princes, even back in 4th and 5th edition.

Is making them medium cavalry the answer??? Possibly, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm also concerned about the possibility of us having 18" charge lance armed cavalry. Clearly GW doesn't want that to be happening with heavy hitting cav. Fast Cavalry is a different matter. GW even removed the Ithilmar barding from our Dragon Princes in this edition.

Perhaps a very simple, characterful rule of some kind that represents the Silver Helms' nobility could work to give them some identity in our list.

Anyway, I'd like as much feedback as I can get on this to help fine tune the list a bit.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#6 Post by Spectre1 »

Two little things to start with.

I not sure about all the core choices being able to take a magic banner up to 25 points. Making the first among equals rule up to 50 points seems a good idea.

Also, you might want to look into making the barding for Silver Helms optional and dropping their cost accordingly. This is not new, but I think it would work.
Asur Blade 25 points
Forged in the flames of Asuryan during the reign of Aethis, this massive halberd has been a favoured weapon of the guardians of the Shrine of Asuryan for over a thousand years.
Keeper of the Flame only. Halberd. Follows all the normal rules for halberds. All attacks made by this halberd count as flaming attacks and ignore armour saves.
Clearly designed to kill the DE's Hydra. Not a bad idea but ignore's armour saves for 25 points and flamming attacks, way to cheap. Keep the flamming, but lose the ignore armour saves.

Dragonblade Lance 20 points
Drakemaster or Dragon Lord only. Lance. This weapon follows the rules for lances, except that when charging all attacks count as flaming and armour piercing.
See above. And I would remove the when charging.

Amulet of Restoration 35 points
Bound Spell (Power Level 3). This amulet may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic Phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the amulet itself. The Amulet of Restoration contains the Healing Energy spell from the Lore of Light.
Very interesting little item. I could really see myself use this once in a while, though I fell that the price tag is a little high for regaining only 1 wound. I know its a bound item and they are usually expencive to equip, but this is a little high in my opinion.

Banner of Avelorn 50 points
Woven by the Maidens of Avelorn and enchanted by the Everqueen herself, this banner weakens the magic that binds Daemons and Undead and penetrates their defences.The unit’s attacks count as magical. Daemons in combat with the unit who fail their instability test, as well as any Undead unit who loses combat to the unit bearing this banner, will suffer an additional D3+1 wounds. No saves of any kind allowed. In addition, the ward saves of any Undead or Daemon in base contact with the unit carrying this banner will cease to work for as long as they remain in base contact.
Now, this is were my problem lies with. This item is really really too strong. Though I know that we all hate with a passion the Deamon's WS a banner worth 50 points taking item away is really too strong. A unit of Dragon Princes carrying this with a combat equip lord could very well plow through a Deamon army without breaking a sweat.

Also, adding D3 + 1 wounds is a little much. D3 wounds, maybe, just maybe. +1 wounds fine no one would have a fit about that. But up to 4 extra wounds per combat phase, you will see a lot of Deamon players just refusing to play against HE armies if this was to become standard.

If you change the price tag to above 50 pts so only the army's BSB could carry it, the banner might be a little better.

What you could do, is a banner that allows the HE player to force a reroll of the leadership test for the instability roll, keeping the second if rerolled. This would be worth 50 points since you risk a Deamon player getting a way better role if you chance it.

All in all, I think some of the new magic items are a good idea and seem well balanced.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#7 Post by Maxwell123 »

Spectre1 wrote:Two little things to start with.

I not sure about all the core choices being able to take a magic banner up to 25 points. Making the first among equals rule up to 50 points seems a good idea.

Also, you might want to look into making the barding for Silver Helms optional and dropping their cost accordingly. This is not new, but I think it would work.
I'm definitely considering doing this, but am also considering other possibilities to make the Silver Helms worth taking. I'd like more feedback from others before I change them.
Asur Blade 25 points
Forged in the flames of Asuryan during the reign of Aethis, this massive halberd has been a favoured weapon of the guardians of the Shrine of Asuryan for over a thousand years.
Keeper of the Flame only. Halberd. Follows all the normal rules for halberds. All attacks made by this halberd count as flaming attacks and ignore armour saves.
Clearly designed to kill the DE's Hydra. Not a bad idea but ignore's armour saves for 25 points and flamming attacks, way to cheap. Keep the flamming, but lose the ignore armour saves.
First of all, the DE Hydra had nothing to do with it. Didn't even occur to me. The White Lions are the monster killers, not the Phoenix Guards. This item was purely designed to give the PG a little more oomph in combat when they are charged. Now, consider the rule I have included in the "Martial Prowess" rule for halberds..it means regular Phoenix Guards would confer a total -3 armour save on the turn they are charged...this item allows the Keeper of the Flame to essentially confer up to an additional -3 modifier on top of that to ignore saves. I definitely intended the ignore armour saves part to only work on the turn they are charged though..appears I forgot to include that..have now fixed.

Dragonblade Lance 20 points
Drakemaster or Dragon Lord only. Lance. This weapon follows the rules for lances, except that all attacks count as flaming and armour piercing also.
See above. And I would remove the when charging.
Flaming and armour piercing isn't overly powerful. I agree the attacks should be flaming at all times, but armour piercing with a lance really only makes sense on the charge. Also, I wanted to keep the cost of this item down.
Amulet of Restoration 35 points
Bound Spell (Power Level 3). This amulet may cast its Bound Spell once per Magic Phase like an ordinary spell. The spell requires no Power dice to cast, all the power required is provided by the amulet itself. The Amulet of Restoration contains the Healing Energy spell from the Lore of Light.
Very interesting little item. I could really see myself use this once in a while, though I fell that the price tag is a little high for regaining only 1 wound. I know its a bound item and they are usually expencive to equip, but this is a little high in my opinion.
I've adjusted the cost of this back down to 30 points
Banner of Avelorn 50 points
Woven by the Maidens of Avelorn and enchanted by the Everqueen herself, this banner weakens the magic that binds Daemons and Undead and penetrates their defences.The unit’s attacks count as magical. Daemons in combat with the unit who fail their instability test, as well as any Undead unit who loses combat to the unit bearing this banner, will suffer an additional D3+1 wounds. No saves of any kind allowed. In addition, the ward saves of any Undead or Daemon in base contact with the unit carrying this banner will cease to work for as long as they remain in base contact.
Now, this is were my problem lies with. This item is really really too strong. Though I know that we all hate with a passion the Deamon's WS a banner worth 50 points taking item away is really too strong. A unit of Dragon Princes carrying this with a combat equip lord could very well plow through a Deamon army without breaking a sweat.

Also, adding D3 + 1 wounds is a little much. D3 wounds, maybe, just maybe. +1 wounds fine no one would have a fit about that. But up to 4 extra wounds per combat phase, you will see a lot of Deamon players just refusing to play against HE armies if this was to become standard.

If you change the price tag to above 50 pts so only the army's BSB could carry it, the banner might be a little better.
This was specifically intended for elite units to be able to carry. I don't want it as a BSB only option. I do see your point though. I've removed the +1 on the wounds.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#8 Post by Prince Ethilanel »

Hello Folks,

Personally i think Silver helms and Reaver Knights should be core.

Silver Helms have been stock elven cavalry since the original Warhammer Armies. To me they should be flexibly armoured.
e.g. All equipment should be optional, except for lance and armour. So you could have a silver helm with steed, light armour and lance who has a 5+ save but moves 18" at one end and fully tooled up 2+ save at the other. IF you dont move them to core i cant see Silver helms being used again due to the power of DP`s. If SH`s were core and flexible then they become useful.

The same applies to reaver knights, they decend from Shore riders. Again flexibilty is the key. steed and a spear, then optional equipment. Barding, light armour, shield, spear and bow. no heavy armour or lance otherwise they encroach into SH space.

Silver Helms are young nobles from throughout the provinces, while Reaver knights represent militia knights, who patrol the coasts and valleys etc.

Reaver Knights. Spears, Shields and Steeds. 5+ save

options:- Swap spear for Bow
Add light armour


Silver Helms Lance, light armour, Shield and Steeds 4+ save

options:- Swap light Armour for Heavy Armour
Add Barding

Dragon Princes, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barding, Steed, lance 2+ save


a few thoughts
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#9 Post by Jonaer »

I'd suggest allowing Silver Helms a single option which includes upgrading both light armour to heavy and adding barding to their steeds. I know this is the same thing I've been saying since them old revision attempts we did way back, but I still think it's the best solution. This would make them very fast and hard hiting, but no more so than say Marauder Horsemen with Flails.

On top of that, and also keeping in mind your comment about the Silver Helms' nobility as well as them competing with Dragon Princes for slots, why not allow one Silver Helm unit to be taken as a Core unit for each Noble or Prince included in the army? Possibly not counting for minimum Core requirement in order to avoid the possibility of an All Cavalry army if that's a concern.

Just a few things based on the discussion so far. I might be back with more comments on your list later, heading out shortly so don't have the time at the moment. But glad to see you back on the forums, enjoyed reading this latest work of yours, many intersting ideas indeed.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#10 Post by Maxwell123 »

Prince Ethilanel wrote:Hello Folks,

Personally i think Silver helms and Reaver Knights should be core.

Silver Helms have been stock elven cavalry since the original Warhammer Armies. To me they should be flexibly armoured.
e.g. All equipment should be optional, except for lance and armour. So you could have a silver helm with steed, light armour and lance who has a 5+ save but moves 18" at one end and fully tooled up 2+ save at the other. IF you dont move them to core i cant see Silver helms being used again due to the power of DP`s. If SH`s were core and flexible then they become useful.

The same applies to reaver knights, they decend from Shore riders. Again flexibilty is the key. steed and a spear, then optional equipment. Barding, light armour, shield, spear and bow. no heavy armour or lance otherwise they encroach into SH space.

Silver Helms are young nobles from throughout the provinces, while Reaver knights represent militia knights, who patrol the coasts and valleys etc.

Reaver Knights. Spears, Shields and Steeds. 5+ save

options:- Swap spear for Bow
Add light armour


Silver Helms Lance, light armour, Shield and Steeds 4+ save

options:- Swap light Armour for Heavy Armour
Add Barding

Dragon Princes, Dragon Armour, Shield, Barding, Steed, lance 2+ save

a few thoughts
I've thought about this. GW went and moved several previously core cavalry units to Special choices in this edition. Now only the Empire and Bretonnia have core cavalry hitting with S5 on the charge. Wood Elves and Dark Elves have Fast Cavalry as core.

Personally, I don't think there is any need for Reavers to be core. They are a provincial based unit and although there's a good number of them, I don't think it makes sense for them to be core. They weren't core last edition either.

Silver Helms are a different matter. Clearly GW tried to increase the infantry focus for the HE by moving SH to Special and that was an admirable goal considering how many cavalry focused and even all-cav HE lists there were in 6th edition.
GW did a good job with our elite infantry this edition, making them all interesting and unique choices in their own way..and along with our wonderful support troops in Reavers, Shadow Warriors and our two chariot types, there just isn't any room for Silver Helms to be in the Special slot in our current list.

Making Silver Helms Core but not counting toward our min core requirements would probably have been the best solution...prevents all cav lists (we aren't Bretonnia), but allows us to take some core cavalry.

The potential problem with allowing them to not have barding and being Core is that they would be able to charge 18" and hit with S5. No other core cavalry in the game can do that.

Bretonnian core cavalry can hit with S5, but only charges 16".
*Empire core cavalry can hit with S5, but only charges 14".
*Dark Elf and Wood Elf core cavalry can charge 18", but can only hit with S4.

Taking into account the rank bonuses and extra attacks they can receive with the lance formation, Knights of the Realm are the fastest and hardest hitting core cavalry in the game, which is as it should be.
Core Silver Helms charging 18" and hitting with S5 would completely unbalance this and would enable High Elves to destroy Bretonnian armies by taking away the key advantage that their core Knightly unit possesses. As a High Elf player, I don't like it and never did in 6th edition either when it was suggested our Silver Helms get option for no barding (i.e. 18" charge S5 and 3+ save).
Being a Bretonnian player also, my reaction is "no fucking way".

Flexible options is fine for the armour and shield, but not the barding if Silver Helms are Core. If they remain Special, then yeah definitely making the barding optional could work.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#11 Post by Maxwell123 »

Jonaer wrote:I'd suggest allowing Silver Helms a single option which includes upgrading both light armour to heavy and adding barding to their steeds. I know this is the same thing I've been saying since them old revision attempts we did way back, but I still think it's the best solution. This would make them very fast and hard hiting, but no more so than say Marauder Horsemen with Flails.

On top of that, and also keeping in mind your comment about the Silver Helms' nobility as well as them competing with Dragon Princes for slots, why not allow one Silver Helm unit to be taken as a Core unit for each Noble or Prince included in the army? Possibly not counting for minimum Core requirement in order to avoid the possibility of an All Cavalry army if that's a concern.

Just a few things based on the discussion so far. I might be back with more comments on your list later, heading out shortly so don't have the time at the moment. But glad to see you back on the forums, enjoyed reading this latest work of yours, many intersting ideas indeed.
Thanks Jonaer. The suggestion to allow one SH unit to be taken as Core for each Noble or Prince in the army is another good one definitely worth considering.

The single option idea of upgrading light to heavy armour and adding barding in one still doesn't really work for me. I guess I'm just opposed to any core cavalry having an 18" charge and hitting with Strength 5..and with the way GW took away our Ithilmar barding from dragon princes, seems they are opposed to it to for ANY cavalry, let alone core.


Anyone else got any thoughts to help me improve this list?
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#12 Post by Flash Felix »

G'day,

I have one comment, and that's concerning Dragon Princes and Silver Helms. There's been a lot of discussion around how the Dragon Princes have essentially pushed the Silver Helms out of contention, with both of them taking up Special slots, but the Dragon Princes being so much more effective for the points. So if you want to increase the utility of the Silver Helms, without nerfing the Dragon Princes or going overboard on powering up the Silver Helms, there's only one answer; move them into seperate categories. There are two options I can see;

Option 1- Move the Silver Helms into Core: Like they were in the last edition, so not a new idea. If you want to prevent cheesy cavalry-only forces, make them not count towards the Core requirements. Making barding optional would allow players to decide if they want heavy or medium cav, as discussed above.

Option 2- Move Dragon Princes into Rare: I realise that this won't be a popular option..... But the fluff completely supports it. Caledor is meant to be the least populous of the Elven Kingdoms, yet it seems to supply about 90% of Ulthuan's cavalry. I know players can write up great back-stories to explain why they have 3 units of Caledorian knights in their Saphery themed army, but this is too much. Make them rare, and you might find that players will find they have to take Silver Helms (Then again, they probably won't; we'll just see fewer eagles and bolt throwers...)

My favourite option is to take both of them..... Rare Dragon Princes and Core Silver Helms (not counting towards core requirements).

Oh, one last thing. At least give Silver Helms WS5; if they're meant to be nobles, they should at least be more proficient with weapons than their brethren in the Spear and Archer regiments. What else are nobles meant to do, if not practice with their weapons while composing poetry?
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#13 Post by Arhain »

Ok, I have a couple of questions:

For characters, why did you up the price of Great Weapons? The only reason they are as expensive as they are now is because of ASF, which you have taken away. Without the ASF, they do not need to be as expensive. Yes, I see that they ignore the Strikes Last rule for Great weapons, but still, with ASF they are cheaper than what you have them as now. If anything, keep them at the current price.

Martial Prowess i'm not exactly a fan of, mainly because the only benefit the elves are getting is when they are being charged. I am not sure if that really demonstrates the skill you had in mind? If they are so skilled with their weapons, why are they only benefitting from them when they are being charged (spears and halberds).

Also, I noticed that your archers dropped a point, but gained the martial prowess boost, yet the LSG stayed the same points. With archers no longer taking modifiers for long range, I think they should stay the same points or go up, not go down.

Ok, so a lot of the items i'm not a fan of:

Noticed that scrolls are now 25, yet some of the other items remain discounted. No good there.

Sword of Hoeth, got a point increase, but it was already one of our most overcosted weapon.
Blade of Leaping Gold, I would say drop down to 55 actually to open up the possibility of useful combos. As it stands now it is not worth 60 points to add 3 more S 4 attacks to the mix.

White Sword: 40 pts for +1 attack (the hero who you buy the white sword for already has a great weapon, so you're really only buying the +1 attack), don't think is worth it.

Asur Blade: This is a halberd, with a
n additional -2 mod, making it -3. On top of the martial prowess that's a -5 when charged. Meh, just strange I guess. I am not a fan of the martial prowess for halberds in general.

Foe bane 25 pts: Still not worth the points. I always thought that by adding a clause stating you may still use lances on the charge would make this item worth it for Dragon Princes and nobles.


Armor of Protection:It used to be 40 pts for light armor and a 4+ ward. I say bring that back, or keep it at 45 and allow it to be heavy armor. The increase to heavy now with the new point cost takes the small buff you gave it have very little meaning at all.

Radiant Gem of Hoeth: Why the complete and utter nerf? It's not only more expensive, which doesn't make any sense at all, but you are now limited to using only mundane armor, meaning you have now killed all workable combos with the Mage Knight Princes. Not good at all.

Dragonhorn: give me back my old item prease.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#14 Post by Maxwell123 »

Arhain wrote:Ok, I have a couple of questions:For characters, why did you up the price of Great Weapons? The only reason they are as expensive as they are now is because of ASF, which you have taken away. Without the ASF, they do not need to be as expensive. Yes, I see that they ignore the Strikes Last rule for Great weapons, but still, with ASF they are cheaper than what you have them as now. If anything, keep them at the current price.
Great weapons are underpriced in general for characters.
Martial Prowess i'm not exactly a fan of, mainly because the only benefit the elves are getting is when they are being charged. I am not sure if that really demonstrates the skill you had in mind? If they are so skilled with their weapons, why are they only benefitting from them when they are being charged (spears and halberds).
Fight in three ranks alone does plenty to show their skill. Spearelves were fine just with that before they got the ASF ability also in this edition. All giving ASF did was make them more effective against troops they were already useful against (weak horde type units (goblins, skeletons, men at arms, empire infantry, etc) but no more effective against tough well armoured infantry.Making them more effective when charged emphasizes their defensive role and helps more of them to survive.The change to halberds makes Phoenix Guards effectively able to kill well armoured cavalry and infantry.
Also, I noticed that your archers dropped a point, but gained the martial prowess boost, yet the LSG stayed the same points. With archers no longer taking modifiers for long range, I think they should stay the same points or go up, not go down.
Good point. This is why I wanted feedback though so I can adjust things to improve the list overall.Archers are overcosted in their current state, which is why I reduced their cost. Taking into account them no longer suffering the long range penalty, I probably should have left them at 11pts though.Ok, so a lot of the items i'm not a fan of:
Noticed that scrolls are now 25, yet some of the other items remain discounted. No good there.
This was not deliberate. I copied the common item list from another post but I intended scrolls to cost same as now. Will adjust this.
Sword of Hoeth, got a point increase, but it was already one of our most overcosted weapon.
Agreed it was overcosted, which is why I made it more effective (i.e. ignoring ward saves).Blade of Leaping Gold, I would say drop down to 55 actually to open up the possibility of useful combos. As it stands now it is not worth 60 points to add 3 more S 4 attacks to the mix.
White Sword: 40 pts for +1 attack (the hero who you buy the white sword for already has a great weapon, so you're really only buying the +1 attack), don't think is worth it.
I do. You need to consider it in context. Only Swordmasters can wield it, so any character getting this sword will already auto-strike first + have killing blow. +1 Attack on a character with killing blow alone is potent, let alone one who already strikes first as well (at WS7/8 for Hero/Lord). You also need to consider that the White Sword counts as a great weapon also, so you are getting +2S as well as +1A. It's not a Sword of Battle giving +1A at your own strength.
Asur Blade: This is a halberd, with an additional -2 mod, making it -3. On top of the martial prowess that's a -5 when charged. Meh, just strange I guess. I am not a fan of the martial prowess for halberds in general.
Fair enough. The halberd is the toughest weapon I had when trying to make a decision on its benefits for the martial prowess rule. Any other suggestions?Foe bane 25 pts: Still not worth the points. I always thought that by adding a clause stating you may still use lances on the charge would make this item worth it for Dragon Princes and nobles.
Armor of Protection:It used to be 40 pts for light armor and a 4+ ward. I say bring that back, or keep it at 45 and allow it to be heavy armor. The increase to heavy now with the new point cost takes the small buff you gave it have very little meaning at all.
meh, 45 or 50 pts. No big difference really. For heavy armour and a 4+ ward, it's definitely worth it either way.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#15 Post by Prince Ethilanel »

Hi Folks,

Silver Helms vs Dragon Princes

I understand the issues with making Silver Helms core. All cav armies from 6th edition does not fit in with the background, neither does Dragon Princes in every other battle.

To me i would be happy to leave Silver Helms as Core if Dragon Princes were moved to Rare, which seems to me to fit in with there background. Caledor is rarely populated, but every other High Elf army contains a unit or two. This cant be right. Moving them to rare and making Silver Helms our general purpose cavalry seems to me the right thing to do. Dont forget that Silver Helms have been fielded since day dot. Dragon Princes in there current form are relatively new in comparison unless your talking about real Dragon Princes from Warhammer Armies.

I dont have a problem with 18" Silver Helms charging with S5 from a technical view point. Other races have there advantages then to me Asur can have theres. However, from a practical point. Every Silver Helm model known to man kind is riding a barded horse. So from a pragmatic point of view, keeping barded steeds would make sense, less we all change our Silver helm steeds.
Options on the Silver Helms makes them more useful though.


So how to stop all cav armies. The not counting towards minimum seems a good idea.

A lot of this comes down to how you see a High Elf army. I dont get the "elves should be lightly armoured" cobblers. To me if i was a near immortal creature whos most likely to die from combat i would put on me best armour before i went to war. And its not like they cant afford it. I expect humans, skaven, orcs/goblins to rock up to battle with a little bit of armour because they cant get hold of it/make it or too expensive. From a Battlefield perspective High Elves, Dark Elves and Dwarfs would roll up in there best armour, cos they can make it and afford it. Wood elves to me are lightly armoured cos they are guerillas, who stay in there little tree realm.

I personally think the backbone of High Elven armies should be HA+S Spearmen, Archers that can actually kill things when shooting, able supported by a considerable number of Silver Helms. Then you can intersperse ELite infantry between the Spear blocks. There seems to be a groundswell of people including GW who seem to think the Phoenix Kings personal Bodyguard, the Shrine of Asuryans protectors rock up all over the place. I dont mind the prevalence of Swordmasters to much as i see them as a sort of Gestapo. SO to see them on the battlefield often wouldnt be a problem.
Rob

I remember when Dragon Princes rode Dragons and Wardancers came from ulthuan.

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Maxwell123
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#16 Post by Maxwell123 »

Ok, list has been adjusted and Silver Helms are now Core (but still do not count to minimum core requirements - so all-cav armies are out).

Anyone got some more suggestions to help improve it??
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Seredain
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#17 Post by Seredain »

On Core Silver Helms:

Having them being core but not counting towards min-requirement almost keeps them at their current status, really (unless your army is going massive msu silver helms and you don't want to use all your special slots). I mean that people will, more or less, only choose the core troops to fill up the slots and your silver helms can't do this, so they're still pretty pants.

Since you don't like attaching troop choices to honours and don't want to allow them no barding (which would justify their special slot (plus I'd give them WS 5 and make them a point cheaper), why not simply have silver helms as typical core choices (which do count towards the minimum)? Just stipluate that units of silver helms may never outnumber the army's units of archers/spears/LSG combined. That way for every core cavalry choice you have to take a core infantry choice. Balanced and bonza.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#18 Post by knightwire »

Max - I've looked over the list, if semi-quickly, and must say I like it. I think this shows yet another example of how you can give the Asur punch without shackling them to ASF.

I think your decision to make SH Core and not count is the best "everybody is happy" solution they have. I do agree with others that they should have a barding option. I like that Reavers can get a banner as well.

I think whatever your view of HE are, an Asur general should have one of the most configurable armies on the table. Choices abound to fit his style or cinema of play.

I'd like to comment more later when I have more time to study the changes you've made.
[color=#FF0000]8th edition[/color] [url=http://www.knightwire.com/gw/he/ahe_v3.pdf]ASF-less Asur[/url] Army List
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#19 Post by Maxwell123 »

knightwire wrote:Max - I've looked over the list, if semi-quickly, and must say I like it. I think this shows yet another example of how you can give the Asur punch without shackling them to ASF.

I think your decision to make SH Core and not count is the best "everybody is happy" solution they have. I do agree with others that they should have a barding option. I like that Reavers can get a banner as well.

I think whatever your view of HE are, an Asur general should have one of the most configurable armies on the table. Choices abound to fit his style or cinema of play.

I'd like to comment more later when I have more time to study the changes you've made.
Thanks Knightwire.

This is my solution for the High Elves in the current system. My actual preference would be for a rewrite of some of the basic rules (e.g. fear), a complete reworking of the magic system and rebalancing of all the army books. Most of that can be attributed to the army books due to so many special rules and magic items about which ignore basic game concepts. I'm happy with most of the rules in the main rulebook (with a few exceptions), but the army book power creep and powering up of units has put Warhammer in a bit of mess right now imo.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#20 Post by Prince Ethilanel »

Hi Folks,

I agree with max, i think some of the basic rules are being abused. Too much of this and too much of that. I would personally like to get rid of charger always strikes first. I have always preferred Initiative goes first. Obviously High Elves do well in this event, much like how ASF works. Also a change to the WS table. If you have a point higher WS you get 3+ to hit making it easier for Better WS troops to hit. I would like to if you are a point lower 5+ to hit making it harder to hit better weapon skill opponents. Again this helps out High Elves.
Rob

I remember when Dragon Princes rode Dragons and Wardancers came from ulthuan.

Following the High Elf path since 1990...

8th edition results W:6 D:1 L:3

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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#21 Post by Maxwell123 »

Prince Ethilanel wrote:Hi Folks,

I agree with max, i think some of the basic rules are being abused. Too much of this and too much of that. I would personally like to get rid of charger always strikes first. I have always preferred Initiative goes first. Obviously High Elves do well in this event, much like how ASF works. Also a change to the WS table. If you have a point higher WS you get 3+ to hit making it easier for Better WS troops to hit. I would like to if you are a point lower 5+ to hit making it harder to hit better weapon skill opponents. Again this helps out High Elves.
lol you can't just change the main rules to help out your own army.

I've heard all the arguments before about changing the Weapon Skill table and I don't buy them. The weapon skill table works fine for the most part. Perhaps the amount of greater weapon skill required for opponent to hit on 5+ could be lowered, but apart from that it's just not necessary to change it.

Also, the chargers strike first mechanic in general works exceptionally well. Remove that and you don't have Warhammer anymore, but a different game. Movement and manoeuvring are so very important in large part because of the chargers strike first rule.

The kinds of basic rules I was referring to are the magic system, rules for fear and terror, etc..in other words, rules that currently don't work well and actually need changing.

The basic movement, shooting and combat rules and system is fine overall. Perhaps a few of the minor details could be adjusted, but the system is sound. Army books are what screw up the balance in these parts of the game, not the main game rules.
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#22 Post by Prince Ethilanel »

Hi Max,

I only advocated a small change. 5+ to hit for troops with a lower WS rather then 4+ is not a massive change by anyones standards.

What it does is reflect real life. IF swordsmen A has more skill then Swordsmen B. Swordsmen A can attack Swordsman B more easily and defend himself better. The blanket 4+ does not represent that. It suggest that a better swordsman has no extra skill to defend himself, this is cobblers.

This simple change would make elf infantry hardier, as less hits would get through. (For the record it would help ALL higher weapon skilled troops not just elves)

The consequences of reintroducing this would mean you wouldn't need to have swordmasters with 2Attacks to make them useful for example. 1A would be enough. Multiple attacks could be pruned back on all armies. This would tone down ELite units and make bog standard infantry useful again. Plus low skilled armies would have to become horde armies again. To me Skaven, Orcs and goblins, should only win though sheer weight of number... Well thats what the fluff intimates anyway.

The reintroduction would of Intitiative strikes first rather then Charger strikes first would not change the game. It would still be warhammer. Hell, thats how it was played before 4th edition.

AS we are all aware ELf infantry were poor prior to ASF, because close combat is biased towards Strong and tough and well armoured troops. ELves have none of those. Our attributes are WS and I. Both biased against since 4th Edition. So ASF was introduced to make High Elf infantry hardier and different. This of course brings up the bizaare issue of a unit of Archers hitting demons, chaos Knights, Dragons, etc. before them. Which is utter cobblers. People talk about just having it on some of the Elites. That doesn't work either. All that is needed to make Initiative stirkes first again.

Initiative strikes first would make our elites go first against most things, but not automatically against everything. Casein point.

Swordmaster I6 with Double handed weapon which would incur a -2 to I, therefore has a combat I of 4. There opponent is a Empire spear unit. Spearman I3 with Spear +3 to I when charged, therefore has a combat I of 6. SO the empires spear unit would hit home first if the Swordmasters unit charges. However, the Spears offer no bonus if they charge. So the Spearman would have I3 against the SM`s I 4, so the Swordmasters would strike first. Of course SM would go first both ways against an Empire greatsword.

This mirrors reality better, as Spear blocks were defensive obstacles which were difficult to overcome.

Silver Helm I5 with Lance +3 to I when charging. Strikes home on an I of 8, so would go first against most things when charging, But I6 troops would go first if they charge as the Lance offers no bonus. Obviously the equal I instance comes up. What do you do if both charger and charged have the same Initiative. Well 3rd Edition way was to have a roll off, but i think thats too fussy and not conducive to charging. In this instance i would suggests the charger goes first, or who ever won the combat round previously. Only when the draw from combat had resulted would you move too a roll off.

This change alone would negate the need for ASF and at the same time make higher Inititive troops hardier in close combat. Off course this would help all High Initiative troops not just High Elves.

These two changes combined with paring back off the assorted bonuses that have been added to infantry etc to make them combat effective would balance the game out more. A unit of Empire Spearmen could beat a unit of double handed wielding chaos knights because the Spears would go first. Those High Elf Spearmen would be useful again as defensive blocks, that you could rely on to become anvils. Not be swept away by any half decent unit that came along. You could get rid of the High Elves extra rank bonus with Spears because 2 ranks would be enough.
Rob

I remember when Dragon Princes rode Dragons and Wardancers came from ulthuan.

Following the High Elf path since 1990...

8th edition results W:6 D:1 L:3

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Rip.dk
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#23 Post by Rip.dk »

The army list is not that bad....but there are some things here and there like White lions being immune to fear, lion claw, affinity, nagarythe hatred(just hate Dark elvs,no one can hate all) and your martial prowess all but the great weapons and spear figth in +1 rank is needed maybe archer shot in two ranks :D

and for the big red book can i only see that 4 things wich i like too change
1. Halberd needs army piercing vs fools bigger than man sized
2. The +1 save for sword and shield rule must cost something, like one point on too of the shield.
3. Rank and file cavalry needs too big 8 man strong this way there are no small cheap 5 manns units and fast cavalry will have better use´s
4. War machines need a T6 and +1 W this way we can kill it with bows and not just stand and gett shot all the time from a machine with cost 75+ point´s

And the thing about too hit and wound is more that fine as is....
it is no fun too be a spearman figthing a ironbreaker when you hit on 5+ and wound on 5+ and then he have 2+ save :^o

but that is just what i thing all in all it is a fun game and it is nice too see i am not the only one who hate the all unit have ASF

Have fun
Rip.DK
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Re: Maxwell's ASF-less High Elf List

#24 Post by Aethyr »

I really like the rules, and am going to give it a shot against my brother in law. Looks like a lot of fun! One thing i dont understand is the:
Silver Spear 25 points
Counts as a spear and follows all the normal rules for spears. In addition, grants bearer +1 Strength. Once per battle, the bearer may throw the spear at a nominated target within 8” in his own Shooting Phase. Normal shooting rules apply. When bearer does this, resolve to hit using bearer's BS in usual way. A successful hit is resolved at Strength 8 and causes not 1 but D3 wounds for each unsaved wound inflicted. Once the spear is thrown, it is considered lost and has no longer provides any benefit whatsoever to the bearer for remainder of battle
So lets say i throw it, i cause D3 wounds at Str 8. 2 of them are killing blows, the 3rd is saved, do those 2 wounds go on to cause D3 wounds each. Seems fairly epic, but i believe I may be reading this wrong.
[i]The Dwarf begged the Dice Gods for Insane Courage on his re-rollable Break Test, failed to achieve it, and the Dice Gods mocked him horribly by giving him Double 1s for his flee distance immediately after. My White Lions promptly ran the Warriors down.[/i]
[b]Lord Tethlis' account of slaying fowl Dawi.[/b]
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