Priests of Vaul.

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branabus
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Priests of Vaul.

#1 Post by branabus »

They're mentioned in the Army Book as blinded people whose blindness allows them to imbue weapons with magical powers, so how about fielding them, I thought?
Here's the results... comments much appreciated
Priest of Vaul
The Priests of Vaul are some of the best smiths in the world. Using Vaul's Anvil to forge their weapons, they are responsible for almost all of the great weapons used by the High Elves today.
When they enter the Order of Vaul, they have their eyes ritually put out, and in doing so gain some of the skill and shrewdness of Vaul himself, and the understanding of the sorrow and suffering that Vaul has undergone to protect the Elves. This knowledge and wisdom enables them to harness the Winds of Magic and imbue items with great power. Without the Priests, Ulthuan would have long since fallen to the many creatures that plague the ancient realm.
Image
Armour: Forging Suit (light armour)
Weapons: Sword of Vaul (see below)

Special Rules

Weapon Smith- Before the battle Priests of Vaul often improve weapons so that the people wielding them will be better able to fight in defence of Ulthuan. This improvement may be anything, from completely re-inbuing the weapon with its magic to simply hammering out the scratches in it. One thing is certain- once a Priest of Vaul has finished with it, it will be many times more effective than before.
Each battle the Priest may choose any weapon wielded by a non-special character and upgrade it for no additional cost. The weapon will now become doubly effective (for example, the Blade of Leaping Gold will have +6! Attacks instead of +3)
Specific rules for this: With the Bow of the Seafarer, you may fire 2 shots instead of one.
Sword of Hoeth- No Armour Saves.
Star Lance: +6 Strength on the Charge.
Reaver Bow: 6 shots/turn
Blade of Sea Gold: No armour or ward saves (regeneration saves may be taken as normal)
Foe Bane: Automatically wounds on 2+.
Magic User- Priests of Vaul can utilise the Winds of Magic to a small extent. Therefore, a Priest counts as a L.1 High Elf Mage who choses spells from the Lore of Fire. In addition, he does not provide the usual +1 to dispel.
Sword of Vaul: Vaul gifts his priests with the best weaponry. The Sword of Vaul hits on 2+ and adds +1 Strength whilst wielding it.
Points cost: 225. Takes up a Hero and a Rare spot.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#2 Post by RE.Lee »

He has 6 S5 hitting on 2+, is a mage, gives and incredible upgrade to magical weapons and can be taken in battles under 2k?
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#3 Post by Jonaer »

Those are indeed quite clearly too powerful for a mere hero choice. Also, the magic items already present in the army book are infact made by Priests of Vaul as is; Why would they tampering with them further make them even more powerful?

Basically, I think you've gone about this enterily wrong. The Priests support the army; They're incredible smiths, not martial artists such as Swordmasters. Surely they wouldn't keep the most powerful weaponry to themselves. Them being actual mages is just as odd to me. Yes, they employ magic to enchant items but blast enemies with fire from afar? I cannot see that.

While not very inventive, I think that the best way to add Priests to the game would be to mimic the rules for Empire Warrior Priests. Let them add a dispel dice to the pool, have a couple of enabled powers and possible something to represent their sharing of sorrow with their patron god. In order to differentiate them somewhat you might want to allow them magical attacks at all times, have their powers require a dice roll to succesfully go off and maybe, just maybe, allow an army including one or more priests access to some new weaponry.

Just my thougths, make of it what you will.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#4 Post by Lethalis »

Being blind and at home at the forge, might I inquire as to why Priests of Vaul would be inclined to take to the field of battle at all?
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#5 Post by ilovecookies1 »

Even if they did enter the battlefield they shouldn't be allowed to march or something like that, and opponents taking the flank or rear of them get +1 to hit him or something because he's blind. haha
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#6 Post by branabus »

Most of you seem to think that he's
a) Not expensive enough
b) Too overpowered (can be taken as a Hero)
c) Too good weaponry
Look at the Dwarf Runesmith. 70 pts and better than a Priest in all but movement. Also, all Dwarvish Runes can make a weapon many times more powerful than normal, and I've tailored the Priest's price to suit that. Also he can only do it to one person whereas runes can be taken with each and every character in the dwarf army.
Secondly, they're still T3. A single cannonball/decent warrior and they're dead.
Actually, I've misprinted the number of attacks, it should be 1. I don't know why I put 6...
Also, a level 1 mage can only take 1 spell and cast it on 2 dice max. That's not going to be deadly to the enemy.
So, here's my reasoning for its points:
L.1 Mage-100 points
Very good sword (if he gets to use it)- 50 points
Upgrading one weapon-max +60 points (the Blade of Leaping Gold costs 60 points ordinarily, and the effect is double)-60 points
So I've actually overpriced him somewhat, as well as made him take up a Rare choice.
Do you see my reasoning now?
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#7 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

branabus wrote:Upgrading one weapon-max +60 points (the Blade of Leaping Gold costs 60 points ordinarily, and the effect is double)-60 points
So I've actually overpriced him somewhat, as well as made him take up a Rare choice.
Do you see my reasoning now?
This is where you're wrong. Doubleing the effect does not double the points cost of the item. Ignoring armour saves is 40-50pts, ignoring ward saves is 35pts. The issue is not the points add up wrong, but the ability to combine them into a single magic item adds more points onto the item.

The only item close to correct is the blade of Hoeth which is 120 points to the 100pt Runefang which has the same effect. But a Runefang can only be take by a general of the Empire who, quite frankly, sucks.

Also, because the points to double the effect do not come out of the magic item allowance, it leaves room for more items - e.g. the 100pt runefang guy gets a 1+ save maximum. We can do batter than that with the 40pts left over.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#8 Post by branabus »

Perhaps you're right.
300 pts? (For the Priest)
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#9 Post by RE.Lee »

1 attacks instead of 6 is a different story.

I think that making his special rules less powerful would make more sense than increasing his cost. Making him more alike to the Priest of Sigmar has been mentioned - how about some bound spells at power level 4-5:

Blessing of Vaul (friendly character gains +1AS and +1S for the duration of the turn)
Curse of Vaul (Vauls Unmaking)

Either make him generate 1 DD or make him a level 1 with the Lore of Metal (It think it suits him better than Fire). If the former he could have 2 attacks.

He'd cost around 175 points that way, more appropriate for a hero.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#10 Post by branabus »

RE.Lee wrote:1 attacks instead of 6 is a different story.

I think that making his special rules less powerful would make more sense than increasing his cost. Making him more alike to the Priest of Sigmar has been mentioned - how about some bound spells at power level 4-5:

Blessing of Vaul (friendly character gains +1AS and +1S for the duration of the turn)
Curse of Vaul (Vauls Unmaking)

Either make him generate 1 DD or make him a level 1 with the Lore of Metal (It think it suits him better than Fire). If the former he could have 2 attacks.

He'd cost around 175 points that way, more appropriate for a hero.
The way I see it is that he's not really a wizard. Merely someone who can use the Winds of Magic to a small extent, and is better at making weapons.
He might not actually fight, but then what would be the point of having him in Warhammer?
Possibly I might make him a Lore of Metal wizard, though.
So should I improve his magic abilities? Or just keep him as he is.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#11 Post by WarpPhoenix »

A smith HAS to use lore of metal if he can use magic, if he didnt then whats he doing in the forge?!

Knowing the secrets of weapons and such should give him the ability to drain the magic out of armour and weapons if the unit he is in base to base with any other unit?

I do agree that a blind elf shouldnt be on the field of battle, and if his senses are so great then you'd need to draw attention to it, to bring attention away from the fact you spent your hero choice on a blind T3 elf that works with your weapons.

Since we dont have an overly strong magic defense they could be our answer? I really like the idea from someone else in here to make them similar to warriors priests and dwarven runesmith. Perhaps give them bound spells too even?
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#12 Post by branabus »

WarpPhoenix wrote:A smith HAS to use lore of metal if he can use magic, if he didnt then whats he doing in the forge?!

Knowing the secrets of weapons and such should give him the ability to drain the magic out of armour and weapons if the unit he is in base to base with any other unit?

I do agree that a blind elf shouldnt be on the field of battle, and if his senses are so great then you'd need to draw attention to it, to bring attention away from the fact you spent your hero choice on a blind T3 elf that works with your weapons.

Since we dont have an overly strong magic defense they could be our answer? I really like the idea from someone else in here to make them similar to warriors priests and dwarven runesmith. Perhaps give them bound spells too even?
Right, a L.1 Wizard with Law of Metal. 200 points.
Each turn in the Magic Phase he may cast Vaul's Unmaking on any character in base contact. This cannot be stopped in any way.
He can also call on Vaul to aid him. This works in one of two ways:
1- Vaul's sorrow overwhelms an enemy mage. The mage forgets one of his spells.
2- ...
Out of ideas. Something more defensive?
The Priest of Vaul make take the Armour of Vaul or the Hammer of Vaul for 50 points.
Armour of Vaul- Dragon Armour (in effect), 4+ Ward Save.
Hammer of Vaul- +2 attacks, +2 Strength

The Priest now also has WS 6 to represent how good he is with his hammer.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#13 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Those are some great ideas, on their own they are. But putting all those things together smells like a lord.

The unstoppable vauls unmaking would be awesome, but completely broken. Id say he doesnt count as a wizard at all, make him grant 2 dispel dice, make him 0-1 and give him like 3 bound spells.

Maybe working like you roll 2D6 and pick the highest for its cast value, if you get a double 6 or 5 you cant stop it. Like tomb kings with a twist.

nothing too pivotal, like +1 to hit in the following combat, +1 AS for the next CC phase and like MR (2) until the start of your next magic phase.

He'd need a basic 2+ just because he's got good armour, but he wouldnt horde his weapons, so just basic with those.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#14 Post by branabus »

I've got some art-work for Vaul, at least.
This:
Image
Or this
Image
The first one's supposed to be Vaul, apparently, the second one's Hepaestus, Greek god of the furnace, similarly crippled.
Anyway, on to the gaming aspects.
Total Points cost:
+30 (2 Dispel dice)
+75(Bound Spells-Vaul's Tears (cast on the priest himself or any other character within 12". The model is immediately healed back to his full starting wounds.),Vaul's Protection(cast on the priest himself or any other character within 12". The model gains a 5+ Ward save.) and Vaul's Hammer( cast on the priest himself or any other character within 12". The model may re-roll failed to-wound rolls in close combat. Does not affect magic weapons.))
+20 (Vaul's Sorrow-Hates all enemies) Taken from the Shadow Warriors by subtracting the cost of 5 High Elf Archers from 5 Shadow Warriors, then allowing for the scout rule.
+10 Vaul's Armour (2+ Armour Save)

Movement-5.
Weapon Skill- 5
Ballistic Skill-0
Strength- 4.
Toughness 3.
Wounds- 2.
Initative-5
Attacks-2
Leadership: 8

Most calculations taken from this web page, with slight modifications to the 'Priests' Rule.
Done! Now we tweak it slightly.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#15 Post by Lethalis »

Funny how this priest, who most likely doesn't have martial training beyond any militia he may have served in, and was then blinded and crippled, now is as quick in evading and striking at the enemy as he was and even better with his blade with more attacks and weapon skill and has grown as strong as what are often described as the most powerful Elves of all, the White Lions.

I'd tweak his profile to match that of a blinded smith, instead of a White Lion with an extra wound.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#16 Post by branabus »

Please give your profile for a blinded smith with ultra-sensory vision due to Vaul, then.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#17 Post by Lethalis »

M5 (being unable to march if he's not in a unit perhaps, as there won't be anyone to help him minding his step)
Ws 2
Bs 0
S 3
T 3
W 2
I 4
A 1
Ld 8

Maybe add an 'immune to fire based attacks' rule á la dragon armour or rune of the furnace, or that he can make all attacks of a single unit in the army magical, decide before the battle which one. As I said before, I seriously doubt that these peeps are going into combat.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#18 Post by Malhandir's Feed »

WHY didn't you put this is my thread. Its what the thread was made for!

Everyone has a point. Why in the world would any blind guy besides Eltharion(who had practiced before hand for a long time) go to war?!? Suicide, maybe. But Elves are a dying race so at the moment Suicide in not the answer, and with Elves its never the answer.

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#19 Post by Cenyu »

branabus wrote:Image
6 Attacks?
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#20 Post by Allandar »

I don't think it is unreasonable for a priest of vaul to be brought along to keep an elven army's/ general/ lord's weapons and armour repaired etc. As far as taking part I would therefore really see him as a support person. Therefore, I would make him something like

M 5
WS 3
BS 0
S 4
T 3 (or even 4?)
W 1 (or 2)
I 6
Ld 8

With decent armour so not easy to kill from afar.

But I think he would have a huge influence on the unit he is with. Something along the line of:

Unit (foot only - can't see him riding!) - all attacks of that unit are magical, or all attacks armour piercing, or all armour is +1. He could also/or make the unit immune to fire spells and metal spells etc. Basically he is weak on his own but makes the unit he is with strong by imbueing their equipment with the blessing of Vaul.

Other idea is he could have a bound spell similar to Ring of Corin - one time in battle can autocast Vauls unmaking. Would make the enemy very keen to take out the priest and the unit he is with. This could be very powerful combo in a unit of swordmasters (armour increase) etc.

Not sure of points cost, though.

Just my thoughts.....
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#21 Post by branabus »

Cenyu wrote:
branabus wrote:Image
6 Attacks?
Had you looked further down, you'd have seen I'd made a mistake on it, in my original version, he's only supposed to have one.
And that was the original version.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#22 Post by kelevandros »

Priest of Vaul
Hero Character
230 Points
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 2 2 3 3 2 4 2 2 9

Model type: Infantry.
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Light Armor
Special rules: Valour Of Ages, Speed of Asuryan. Forge of Vaul. Priest of Vaul.

Priest of Vaul: The priest of vaul counts as a Level 1 Mage selecting his spells from the Lore of Metal.

Forge of Vaul: At the start per Game the Priest of Vaul may invoke the Blessing of Vaul Upon one friendly unit. Roll a D6 on the blessings of Vaul Chart and apply the result.
1: Vaul Ignores the Priests Pleas, no effect
2 The weapons are unnaturally keen. All weapons wielded by the unit gain Armor Piercing
3 The Blessing Of Vaul Imbues the weapon with mystic energy. All attacks by the unit count as magical.
4: Vaul Grants the weapons with the power to bring low the mightiest foe.The units weapons are considered Poisoned.
5: Vaul Grants the Weapon the ability to strike with deadly force. The units weapons no confer killing blow
6: Choose any of the Blessings of vaul for the units weapons.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#23 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Nah you cant make him useless every 6th game. I just had an idea of my own, you could make it like the eye of the gods rolls with the war shrine, you can roll each shooting phase and if you want to keep what you have you can.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#24 Post by Paraicj »

Hmmm, some good ideas. Here's mine:

Okay. Start with a mage statline.

+1 S for being a smith, muscles are kind of their thing.

-1WS and BS for being blind. I assume that they compensate somehow, as they can forge and shape metal, but probably not up to the standard needed for battles.

Counts as a level 1 mage, lore of metal only.

This is a cheap character so far, at least 20 points cheaper than a normal mage, as there's no +1 to dispel or choice of lores.

Lets say 70 points.

Right, they're smiths of a god, so their handweapon will give magical attacks, I suppose. It's unlikely they'll bother with anything more complicated. They are blind, why have a super-weapon?

So, +5 points for a magic attack.

Armour: 2 ways about it. Either they simply wear forging clothes, so a leather apron, or light armour. OR they realise they're on a field of battle and slap on an ithilmar suit, for a 4+ save.

I'm inclined towards the 6+, they are essentially mages after all. So +2 points for that.

77 points so far.

Abilities: I'm thinking something simple. Bound spells have their charms, but they can cast spells anyway, so it's a bit much. I think unit upgrades is the way to go. And you choose before the game. The idea is that the Smith chooses a unit before the battle and spends a while with their weapons, shining them up, or whatever. But how to go about it?

How about:
For each smith in the army, the player may choose one unit. This unit is allowed to choose one of the following upgrades at a cost of +1 point per model:
1: +1 to hit
2: +1 to wound
3: +1 Armour Save
Or the following for +3 points per model:
1: Attacks count as Killing Blow
2: Attacks count as Poisoned
3: +2 armour save

Each Unit may only receive 1 upgrade, regardless of the number of smiths in the army, but the effects last even if the smith dies.


The idea that units pay for the upgrades means the hero-level smith can remain cheap, but gives the option of these upgrades for units. So, if you want a unit of 3+ save Swordmasters, who would be pretty dangerous, DING, but you pay for them.

I think this would result in about 100 points for the character, and most people would probably spend the points on SMs or DPs, but it's a pretty simple idea, and results in not spending 200 points on a hero.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#25 Post by branabus »

Alternatively, I can turn him into an upgrade.
You know, for a Prince or something, get him to augment his armour/weapon.
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#26 Post by Archangel »

i think he should have Vauls unmaking as bound he is a prist of vaul

and light armour that make him immune do flameing attacks forges are hot afterall
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#27 Post by Ruerl Khan »

This might just be me thinking in an odd way, but why not make him a character that can be used somewhat along the lines of how the dark elf cauldron of blood is used? Slightly different enchants will be needed offcourse, and he'll be a rare choice and a part of a small group of models, not a hero choice. But he will give so much more in terms of being an interesting character on the battlefield.

A hero who, for additional points, can give those buffs are both clumsy and inelegant, why not simply give him a few passive choices that he can choose to invoke at the start of each high elf magic phase wich lasts until next high elven magic phase? I'd probably do it something akin to this:

Priest of vaul: Stats as an ordinary elf, except +1 wound, +1 leadership (and no bs offcourse).
Immune to psychology

Blessings of vaul:
At the start of each high elven magic face the priest may confer a unit within 12 inches one of the following blessings:

Armour of vaul: the unit counts as having a 1+ armour save, wich cannot be improved in any way.

Shield of vaul: The high elven army gains another two dispel dice in the next magic phase.

Sword of vaul: The unit counts as having its strength score increased by +1, so str 3 becomes str 4 etc.

**

The strong side of this is that the blessings obviously are highly powerfull and should be cheaper than the cauldron of blood with hag, the downside is that the model is much easier to remove than the cauldron of blood. I do not know wich points cost it should be placed to, but this is just, so far at least, a stray thought on how one could make a priest of vaul and give the blessings to the army.
And I stress army here, not just blessing one character, we've got enough herohammer, and a high elf army should be based on the troops bashing up stuff, not just the characters.

Also, imagine how efficient a unit of spearmen with str 4 would be? Or swordmasters with a temporary 1+ armour save?
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#28 Post by tiekwando2 »

Forge of Vaul 150-170
Gives everything within 12" MR2, Is indistructable (like cauldron of blood)
Priest+assistants get 4+ ward (can be improved to 3+ with blessing)
gives one unit within 24" a blessing of Vaul
+1 Ward Save (including conditional wards, if no ward 6+)
+1 Strength (does not affect ranged weapons)
All attacks are Flaming, AP (including ranged weapons)
No unit can take more than one blessing
Priest of Vaul m ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 2 0 4 3 2 5 1 8 6+
Forger's Suit-Counts as light armor, but is blessed to be immune to flaming attacks

Assistants m ws bs s t w i a ld sv
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8 6+
Forger's Suit

I think this would make a welcome addition to any high elf army. It is hard to kill from shooting and magic but is beaten relatively easily in assault. The priest is blind so ws2 (he can still feel around and hit someone, just not very good at defending) but tough because well he hits things with a hammer all day. The assistants are just normal elves that are helping him. I thought that Forger's Suit would be relatively fluffy.
The biggest thing is the MR2 for 12" around, i thought it was a pretty useful thing in an HE army, similar to stubborn for the blood cauldron, the blessings are different but useful, the first is good with PG, or if you can manage to get shield of saphery on SM they have 4+ ward, otherwise its only 6+. +1 S, well pretty much always good. Flaming and AP gives us a better way to take out regenerating creatures, also can effect range so RBT has 6 s4 with -3 modifier flaming. I mainly looked at the points for the Cauldron and subtracted 30-50 because it does not cause terror, attendents are much easier to get rid of in hth, MR instead of stubborn (MR worth more), blessings are different but i think equally powerful (sometimes less sometimes more). Mainly the reduction is because i felt it was relatively easy to destroy with war machine hunters compared to the cauldron. Maybe it would be 120 points for Forge and 40 for Priest
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Re: Priests of Vaul.

#29 Post by saintjon »

I think the idea of a crew of guys led by a priest with some kind of shrine/forge is a lot cooler and makes better sense than a blind priest doddering around in the field and stuff.

I think certain units should be BARRED from recieving the blessing though. Phoenix Guard are Asuryan's Chosen and he's blessed them up quite nicely already. I think you have to bar Shadow Warriors too, for they are of Nagarythe and accordingly must be shunned. Those are the two obvious ones for me anyhow.
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