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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:49 am 
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Had a fun 2400pts battle vs TK yesterday.

I decided to go for something completely different and to pick some of the more underpowered and less used units from the HE book. I know I can win with a PG block centrally in my line supported by some hard hitting units around it. But there's other fun stuff in the HE. And though I didn't know I would be facing TK when I made the list, TK are a nice army to bring fun choices against, since they're not the strongest of armies anyway. My list was;

Lords
Archmage, High magic
Level 4, scroll, talisman of endurance, ironcurse icon

Heros
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Core
22 archers, full command
10 Silver helms, full command
5 reavers, musician

Special
15 Swordmasters, full command, gleaming pennant
Lion chariot

Rare
Flamespire phoenix
2 RBT
10 sisters of Averlorn
Great eagle

Thoughts? Comments?

From memory, the TK list was:
Lords
Tomb King, 4+ armour save, 4+ ward
Lvl 4 Mage (Hierophant)

Heros
Ramhotep the visionary (I think he's a hero at least)

Core
40 skeletons, hand weapon, shield (give or take a few)
13 archers
13 archers
15 horsemen

Special
30 Tomb guard
3 necropolis knights
Warsphinx

Rare
Necrosphinx
Casket of souls

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
15 horsemen


Wait, what?! :shock:

The special and rare choices I like, but the core is just not there. Not enough bodies in those archer units and the horsemen are the weakest bit in an already weak army book. I'd love to see them do something useful, though, so go easy on the poor bastards! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Interesting choice Rod. Could be a great solo blocker but he needs to watch out for Killing Blow.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Love this guy.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Tomb King, 4+ armour save, 4+ ward

With this dude and the Tomb Guard the TK's have a solid block at least.

RE.Lee wrote:
Thoughts?

Normally HE's will roll TK's if they can get into combat but there's actually some meat here. You've got better shooting though Rod, backed up with Hand of Glory and Fireball. That should let you deal with the Sphinxes better than your opponent can deal with your Monsters, middling though these are. The Casket is a threat to them though, you might be glad of that scroll.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:03 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
15 horsemen


Wait, what?! :shock:

The special and rare choices I like, but the core is just not there. Not enough bodies in those archer units and the horsemen are the weakest bit in an already weak army book. I'd love to see them do something useful, though, so go easy on the poor bastards! :lol:

We'll get to them later ;)
SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Interesting choice Rod. Could be a great solo blocker but he needs to watch out for Killing Blow.

I wanted to add some punch to the SH block. But with the dragon mage there are some serious points restrictions to the hero slot. So he was the best I could come up with. Killing blow is not something I often worry about. But it's definitely an worry when fighting TK who can field blocks of KB models and have a lot of KB options on the monsters. And roll enough dice and a 6 is bound to come up (though we'll be getting to that later as well).

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Love this guy.

He looked like a fun pick. Nothing too competitive (though he's solid). But packing a punch, and 2 fire spells can pack a nice punch. And I must say after the battle that he delivered. He was fun, and though perhaps not the best use of points he's solid enough. He's dangerous on the charge to a lot of things and the dragon is nice enough as long as you remember that it's just a sun dragon. Though I did get a bit lucky with my armour saves.

I'll save my analysis of the list till after the battle report.

On to the battle.

Deployment
Image
Terrain wise there's a few forests and some walls spread around. Nothing too exiting. We probably should get more / better terrain for our games... ;)

On the HE side we have, top to bottom:
RBT
Archers
Eagle in front of the archers
Swordmasters (more or less in the centre of my deployment zone) with the archmage
Lion chariot
Sisters
Reavers in front of the sisters
Flamespire
Silver helms + BSB
Dragon mage
RBT

On the TK side we have, top to bottom:
Horsemen
Archers
Skeletons + Hierophant
Warspinx in front of the casket
Tomb Guard + Tomb King and Ramhotep
Necrosphinx
Necropolis knights with the archer unit in front

Vanguard sees my reavers shuffle forward slightly. Mainly to get out of the way of the sisters. And the TK horsemen advance a full 12'' up the field.

Spells:
Archmage: Apotheosis, Hand of glory, Tempest, Unforging
DM: Fireball, fire cloak. Yes, as I type this I realize that he gets flaming sword as first spell. I should play him more and get more familiar with his rules.

Hierophant (sorry, unsure of the names): Movement spell, KB spell, 5+ ward save, extra attack for a unit.

What do you guys think? He went for a fairly central deployment with all the heavy hitters on the southern flank. I decided to ignore the north flank (apart from the archers) at the start and try to get round the south flank. Which should let me deal with the heavy hitters (the warsphinx, necrosphinx and the TG) one at a time. I have a slight edge in mobility, which should help here.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:39 am 
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The Tomb Guards and Swordmaster at in for a showdown and if the Constructs can join in things might get interesting. I'm afraid it'll be do late, with you right flank swinging in and delivering the killing blow before the centers meet.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
KB spell,

This is potentially another issue for BSB and friends of course Rod.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Yes, as I type this I realize that he gets flaming sword as first spell.

I'd forgotten this too. Could be a useful shooting buff.

RE.Lee wrote:
The Tomb Guards and Swordmaster at in for a showdown and if the Constructs can join in things might get interesting. I'm afraid it'll be do late, with you right flank swinging in and delivering the killing blow before the centers meet.

I largely agree RE. The Horsemen might actually be a little annoying out on that flank though.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:00 am 
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Time to get going :) One thing that (probably) is worth mentioning is that the table we play on is on the small side of things. It's more towards 40'' instead of 48'' wide. Which limits the amount of movement space available.

I won the roll off for first turn and decided to go first.

HE turn 1
I advance cautiously. The dragon mage is most aggressive and flies out to the flank of the TK army, on the edge of the board. It both has some flank charges to help things out and good visibility for spells.
The SH bus, reavers and Phoenix shuffle forward slightly. Out of (safe) charge range, but close enough to threaten charges if stuff decides to move.
The SM also move forward slightly. The WLC is slightly more aggressive and moves in front of the SM unit.

Magic gives me an average 6 PD to play with. I start with Tempest (on 3 dice) on the TG block. It scatters slightly south, so it now also hits the necrosphinx. After saves etc I have managed to kill 1 whole TG. I fail to roll a 6 to wound the sphinx. At least I get first blood ;)

I get slightly greedy and go for a boosted fireball from the dragon mage on 2 dice and manage to roll a 4.

Hand of glory gets dispelled.

Shooting manages to underwhelm as usual. I think I kill a couple of skeletons. Shooting at the necrosphinx once again fails to bring up a 6 to wound.

TK turn 1
The skeleton horsemen charge through the forest into the north RBT. Dangerous terrain tests kill 2 of them.
In movement, both archer units move slightly to reposition. The necropolis knights reform to face the dragon mage. And the necrosphinx repositions so he has most of the heavy hitters on the south flank in his front arc.

Magic gives a 5+ ward to the TG unit and raises back the single kill on them with the lore attribute.

Shooting targets the eagle, and leave a giant eagle shaped hole in the centre of the battlefield.

In combat the horsement lose a model but they take out the RBT and overrun into the archers flank.

Which results in the following battlefield (sorry for the crappy picture):
Image

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
The skeleton horsemen charge through the forest (...) take out the RBT and overrun into the archers flank.


This is more damage than they've managed since 8th edition hit the shelves! This is outrageous! :lol: They have a decent chance to go through the archers, thanks to that flank. Interesting.

The south is going to be the key encounter here, though.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:31 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
The SH bus, reavers and Phoenix shuffle forward slightly.

Maybe the Helms could have been more aggressive Rod? KB is a factor but they're a pretty good anvil.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic gives me an average 6 PD to play with. I start with Tempest (on 3 dice) on the TG block. It scatters slightly south, so it now also hits the necrosphinx. After saves etc I have managed to kill 1 whole TG. I fail to roll a 6 to wound the sphinx. At least I get first blood

I get slightly greedy and go for a boosted fireball from the dragon mage on 2 dice and manage to roll a 4.

Hand of glory gets dispelled.

Not a great magic phase. Tempest is rarely a good option sadly.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Shooting manages to underwhelm as usual. I think I kill a couple of skeletons. Shooting at the necrosphinx once again fails to bring up a 6 to wound.

A bit unlucky but Hand was dispelled of course. Maybe with the second RBT deployed next to your other shooters you'd have been able to focus fire better?

Prince of Spires wrote:
TK turn 1

Looks pretty solid, though Dragon Mage vs Necro Knights could be crunchy.

RE.Lee wrote:
This is outrageous!

Something surreal about it, isn't there RE?

:)

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:32 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Maybe the Helms could have been more aggressive Rod? KB is a factor but they're a pretty good anvil.

Perhaps an option. But I didn't want to split up my forces too early. And I was slightly worried about getting bogged down in a T8 monster and / or a big unit without support.

SpellArcher wrote:
Not a great magic phase. Tempest is rarely a good option sadly.

I'm finding that out more and more (I haven't played high that often). On paper it looks pretty good. A large template with only a D6 scatter. But somehow it rarely delivers. I'm wondering if dropping it for one of the signature spells would have been better.

RE.Lee wrote:
The south is going to be the key encounter here, though.

My thinking as well.

On to T2
High elf Turn 2
I charge the dragon mage into the necropolis knights and the SH bus into the archers.

Other movement:
The reavers move up to block the TG unit. A charge on them would take the TG unit into the centre of the field.
The WLC moves up to the centre of the field and pivots so it has most of the TK line in its front arc.
The phoenix moves forward to prevent the necrosphinx from joining into any of the fights in the next TK turn by blocking landing space.
The SM unit moves up slightly so it can get more aggressive next turn if everything goes well on the south flank.

Magic doesn't achieve anything. I again get an average phase with 7 dice. My opponent gets a channel, scrolls my first spell and dispels the rest. The upside is that I rolled a 6 so the phoenix has a 4+ ward.

Shooting:
The sisters and remaining RBT take aim at the necrosphinx. But the 16 shots again fail to bring up a 6 to wound.

Combat:
here things start to get interesting.
The horsemen go first. They manage to an archers for a wound in return. Which means that with a flank, charge, banner and ranks (since they disrupt the archers the archers don't get their rank bonus) they win combat by 4. Which makes the archers test on 4, which they fail. They get run down in the process.
The SH bus goes next and decimates the archers for no wounds in return. What remains crumbles and the SH bus overruns into the flank of the necropolis knights, where they get to fight again.
In the necropolis knight fight the dragon and dragon mage deal two wounds between them while taking none in return thanks to getting a double 5 on two 5+ armour saves for the dragon mage. The SH bus + BSB deals another two wounds while taking a wound in return. I win combat by a bunch and the rest of the necropolis knights crumble.
The SH bus reforms to face the flank of the TK line. The dragon mage decides it's on a roll and overruns into the necrosphinx (mainly to keep it in place).

Tomb King T2
Charges:
The horsemen decide they like this battle and charge the Sisters in the flank.
The Warsphinx charges the Reavers in the flank.

Other movement:
The remaining archers move up so they have stuff in their front arc so they can actually shoot. Also, the HE north flank is more or less gone, so not much reason to stay there.
The skeletons and the TG pivot to get the HE army in view.

Magic:
He gets KB and a 5+ ward save on the TG. I let him have these, saving my scroll. I'm thinking they are unlikely to see much combat in the next turn anyway.
Then the casket goes off on the SM with IF waisting what DD I have. The SM take no wounds from the casket. But it then jumps to the SH bus. I roll a 10 on the LD test, decide to use the BSB reroll and of course, roll a 15. I take 3 wounds, leaving 6 SH + BSB. #-o

Shooting kills 2 SM.

Combat:
The Warsphinx melts the Reavers and overruns into the front of the WLC.
The Horsemen kill 3(!) sisters, but they also lose a horseman in return. They win by a nice margin and the sisters decide to run for it. They do get away though with about an inch to spare. The horsemen lose another model to a dangerous terrain test from a nearby wall.
The dragon mage decides to use its breath weapon, rolling a 8 for hits and I again fail to roll a 6 to wound. Its other attacks also do nothing. The necrosphinx also fails to wound (in part again by me rolling a double 5 for the armour saves of the dragon mage). Which makes the mage actually win combat by 1, which does nothing since the sphinx is a construct.

Which leads to:
Image

(note, all the models on the extreme north edge of the table are dead...)

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:35 pm 
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I'm absolutely loving this! Go Horsemen! :lol:

The Silverhelms are wrecking face, will they go through the Tomb Guards as easily?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
I was slightly worried about getting bogged down in a T8 monster and / or a big unit without support.

Necrosphinx is probably a win because of your static res Rod. Though given what happened it's hard to criticise!

Prince of Spires wrote:
A large template with only a D6 scatter.

Wood Elves and such are a fair target for it.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic doesn't achieve anything. I again get an average phase with 7 dice. My opponent gets a channel, scrolls my first spell and dispels the rest. The upside is that I rolled a 6 so the phoenix has a 4+ ward

Drawing the scroll before you absolutely need to get a spell through is pretty solid.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Which makes the archers test on 4,

How close were they to being Steadfast?

Prince of Spires wrote:
SH bus overruns into the flank of the necropolis knights,

Just awesome.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Which leads to:

This game is great because it's really competitive.

RE.Lee wrote:
Go Horsemen!

Can the Undead be incredulous I wonder RE?

:)

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:00 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
The Silverhelms are wrecking face, will they go through the Tomb Guards as easily?

The problem here (of my own making I may add) was that I was too defensive here. I placed the phoenix in such a way that he protected the flank of the SH and prevented support from getting into the necropolis knight combat. However, it now also meant that the SH bus couldn't actually charge anything this turn and were also limited in movement options. They were effectively stuck in place for a turn.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic doesn't achieve anything. I again get an average phase with 7 dice. My opponent gets a channel, scrolls my first spell and dispels the rest. The upside is that I rolled a 6 so the phoenix has a 4+ ward

Drawing the scroll before you absolutely need to get a spell through is pretty solid.

Yeah, I wasn't unhappy with that outcome. So it probably was a decent magic phase. Though actually doing a bit of damage would have been nice. Though having equal PD / DD because of the TK channel would have always made that hard. So it wasn't a bad outcome.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Which makes the archers test on 4,

How close were they to being Steadfast?

I was a model short I think. It's what you get for deploying wide so everyone can shoot...

The SH overrun was sort of planned. I spotted the overrun possibility when declaring charges and I had decent hope to get through the archers in one go. The outcome was better then hoped for of course, with the necropolis knights disintegrating as well.

On to the next turn, though unfortunately I forgot to take any pictures from this point on. So you'll just have to read what happens :)

High Elf turn 3
Sisters rally and turn to face the oncoming horsemen
The SM charge into the flank Warsphinx.
I forgo the option of charging the phoenix into the necrospinx (not sure if he would have fit in the tight space anyway. And instead decide to fly over the skeleton block. With the massive amount of ranks, wake of fire kills 11 of them. Which is an impressive result in my book. :) It lands at the north flank of the TK army and faces south again so it has a charge on most things in the TK army and has the option to fly over stuff again next turn.
The SH move back so they are out of charge range of the TG.

Magic:
Slightly bigger phase. I start with Cascading fire cloak. My opponent fails his dispel, which gives me both 2D6 hits on the necrosphinx and means I have a +4 advantage the rest of the phase. The 2D6 gives me 9 hits. All of which again fail to wound...
The archmage proceeds to hand of glory on the sisters and gets +3 on them. So they now are WS8, BS8, I8
He then casts Apotheosis on something just to get the wardsave on his unit up to 5+

Shooting
The sisters aim point blank at the horsemen. With BS 8 they get a lot of hits. But wounding and armour saves mess up a bit and only 2 horsemen die. If only TK were a 'destruction' army...
The RBT fails to impresse, being hampered by poor line of sight on targets and my inability to roll decent to wound rolls for shooting.

Combat
The WLC and the SM go to town on the Warsphinx. They deal it a couple of wounds. My opponent goes for the thundercrush attack, which does a few wounds in return but nothing too spectacular. Combined with a flank and banner, it crumbles to dust. My units reform
The Dragon mage keeps slapping wet towels at the necrosphinx, again failing to bring up a 6 to wound somewhere. In a reversal of fortune, the dragon takes a single wound. And because that's how I roll I fail my breaktest on a rerollable 8. I flee but just manage to stay on the table. The sphinx reforms.

Tomb king turn 3
Charges
The horsemen continue their rampage down my deployment zone and charge the sisters.
The necrosphinx declares a charge on the dragon mage who flees of the table. He redirects into the SH. They opt to flee for fear of the TG joining in on the fun either this or next turn and because so far I haven't gotten a single wound on the damned thing.
The TG declare a charge on the depleted SM who decide it's probably wiser to flee as well. He redirects into the WLC which decided to hold

Magic:
With the archmage fleeing I can't use my scroll (where is that rule actually? We couldn't find it but this made the most sense to us). Consequently he gets the KB spell off on the TG and the 5+ ward save.

Shooting doesn't do much with no targets to actually shoot at

Combat:
The TG stomp all over the WLC for one or two wounds in return. They reform after the WLC is destroyed.
The sisters do a bunch of wounds to the horsemen but they take as many in return. They fail combat by two and leg it for the hills. They get caught, but the pursuit fails to reach the RBT.


At this point we decide to call it a night. Most of the HE army is out of the action and I don't see a lot of options to bring it back. The numbers should wear me down in the long run. With about twice as many points still left on the table it's a victory for the Tomb Kings!

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the battle. I have a few ideas of where things went wrong. But I'm curious what other people think.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 am 
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Shocking result but with the Horsemen having such a field day there could only be one outcome :D

I agree that you were a bit slow to act. The Tomb Kings are such a cumbersome army that Elves should be picking them apart quickly - you gave them time to take care of your threats one by one. The Tomb Guards should not be allowed into a meaningful combat before they're pretty much the last thing in the army. That is, of course, easier said that done.

Need to say, its been a while since I've enjoyed a report that much :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:47 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Shocking result but with the Horsemen having such a field day there could only be one outcome

At what point did you realise these might actually be a problem Rod?

Prince of Spires wrote:
The sisters aim point blank at the horsemen

I believe these couldn't shoot because they were rallying?

Prince of Spires wrote:
The necrosphinx declares a charge on the dragon mage who flees of the table.

Ouch.

Prince of Spires wrote:
With the archmage fleeing I can't use my scroll (where is that rule actually?

Rulebook FAQ pg 5.

Prince of Spires wrote:
The problem here (of my own making I may add) was that I was too defensive here. I placed the phoenix in such a way that he protected the flank of the SH and prevented support from getting into the necropolis knight combat. However, it now also meant that the SH bus couldn't actually charge anything this turn and were also limited in movement options. They were effectively stuck in place for a turn.

This seems to have really hurt Rod. The Helms are the closest thing you have to an anvil, as it was you ended up having to flee several charges rather than hold with something that could take some pounding when things got tough. HE's can work with multiple hammer units, WoC style but coordinating all the charges can be really important.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:15 am 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Need to say, its been a while since I've enjoyed a report that much :lol:

Glad you like it :)

Despite losing I actually really enjoyed the battle as well. Yes, I made a fair few mistakes. But it was close fought, with some epic moments and dice rolls in there. And it could have gone both ways. Which I find a lot more fun then simply stomping all over your enemy.

SpellArcher wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
Shocking result but with the Horsemen having such a field day there could only be one outcome

At what point did you realise these might actually be a problem Rod?

When the archers ran for it. At which time it was too late to really do much about them. I hadn't expected the charge on the RBT through the forest. But I figured the archers would hold them in place first combat round and after that be able to deal with them. After this there wasn't that much I could do about them, since the combat actually happened in my turn which let my opponent charge them again in his turn. Which sort of snowballed them through my backline.

Good point on the sisters not being able to shoot. I really should keep better notes :) And thanks for the rule reference for the scroll. I should have the FAQ somewhere, just forgot to check it.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
The problem here (of my own making I may add) was that I was too defensive here. I placed the phoenix in such a way that he protected the flank of the SH and prevented support from getting into the necropolis knight combat. However, it now also meant that the SH bus couldn't actually charge anything this turn and were also limited in movement options. They were effectively stuck in place for a turn.

This seems to have really hurt Rod. The Helms are the closest thing you have to an anvil, as it was you ended up having to flee several charges rather than hold with something that could take some pounding when things got tough. HE's can work with multiple hammer units, WoC style but coordinating all the charges can be really important.

RE.Lee wrote:
I agree that you were a bit slow to act. The Tomb Kings are such a cumbersome army that Elves should be picking them apart quickly - you gave them time to take care of your threats one by one. The Tomb Guards should not be allowed into a meaningful combat before they're pretty much the last thing in the army. That is, of course, easier said that done.

This is definitely one of the bigger issues. I should have kept my forces grouped together more. And once I committed on the south flank I should have done so full force, not half. Perhaps I should have been less afraid of the TG unit as well.

The alternative could also have been to play it a lot safer. I had ranged superiority and a mobility edge. My charge was more powerful but I also had more backup options I think.

Both options would have been ok, where the middle road I took now was not. I do think this also brings up another issue. And that is with the army list. As a reminder, this was my list
Lords
Archmage, High magic
Level 4, scroll, talisman of endurance, ironcurse icon

Heros
BSB
Barded steed, Heavy armour, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone

Dragon mage
Level 2, dragon armour, charmed shield, starlance, luckstone

Core
22 archers, full command
10 Silver helms, full command
5 reavers, musician

Special
15 Swordmasters, full command, gleaming pennant
Lion chariot

Rare
Flamespire phoenix
2 RBT
10 sisters of Averlorn
Great eagle

My feeling about this list is that it's a bit too much all over the place. It has some big defensive elements, with the shooters, the chariot and the Swordmasters. But then it also has some very aggressive parts in the phoenix, the dragon mage and the SH bus. It didn't really feel like a coherent army but more like stuck together units (which it was to be fair).

Sisters I didn't properly see in action. But I think the unit should be bigger to be a real factor on the battlefield. 10 shots simply don't pose that big a threat, even if they are S4 BS5. In a next list I would drop them to upgrade the flamespire to a frostheart (for a more aggressive list) or drop the flamespire and double them in size (for a more defensive list).

I really liked the dragon mage. Yes, I got lucky with armour saves (passing 4 5+ saves in a row is neat). But he performed well. And more importantly, he was fun to play with. However, I don't think the list was aggressive enough to justify bringing him. He's not cheap at 435 points. But he really is a support unit (albeit a powerful one). And he really needs other fast, hard hitting units on the table. Otherwise he has a big target on his fragile head and is at the risk of simply getting bogged down in tough stuff or larger units.

I would drop him from a more defensive version of the list I hink. A cavalry prince is an obvious replacement. But part of the points should also go to some more punch in other parts of the list.

In a more aggressive version of the list I'm wondering how he would fare paired up with Eltharion on stormwing. I have no experience with him. But I've got him assembled and waiting to be painted. This would involve dropping the archmage. But it still leaves 4 levels of magic on the table

Of course, some bad luck was involved. I counted 35 hits on the necrosphinx. And not a single one of them managed to wound. There were some unlucky breaktests in there. But nothing major really. I should have been able to deal with it (and did for the most part). Also, not remembering that flaming sword is a default pick for the DM actually could have made a difference. +1 to wound is massive against T8 stuff like the necrosphinx.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
When the archers ran for it. At which time it was too late to really do much about them. I hadn't expected the charge on the RBT through the forest. But I figured the archers would hold them in place first combat round and after that be able to deal with them. After this there wasn't that much I could do about them, since the combat actually happened in my turn which let my opponent charge them again in his turn. Which sort of snowballed them through my backline.

I think this is one difference between competent players like us and really top-level players Rod. They see ahead better than we do.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Sisters I didn't properly see in action. But I think the unit should be bigger to be a real factor on the battlefield. 10 shots simply don't pose that big a threat, even if they are S4 BS5. In a next list I would drop them to upgrade the flamespire to a frostheart (for a more aggressive list) or drop the flamespire and double them in size (for a more defensive list).

This is interesting. I've seen 20 with the Handmaiden for Quick to Fire. I also feel the Swordmasters are too small here. I remember an old quote from Seredain where he said that if forced to Flee these he'd probably already done something wrong.

Prince of Spires wrote:
In a more aggressive version of the list I'm wondering how he would fare paired up with Eltharion on stormwing. I have no experience with him. But I've got him assembled and waiting to be painted. This would involve dropping the archmage. But it still leaves 4 levels of magic on the table

Interesting, two medium-level threats. Losing the Scroll might hurt, especially given these big guys that might need it's cover.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Of course, some bad luck was involved.

It was.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:49 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
When the archers ran for it. At which time it was too late to really do much about them. I hadn't expected the charge on the RBT through the forest. But I figured the archers would hold them in place first combat round and after that be able to deal with them. After this there wasn't that much I could do about them, since the combat actually happened in my turn which let my opponent charge them again in his turn. Which sort of snowballed them through my backline.

I think this is one difference between competent players like us and really top-level players Rod. They see ahead better than we do.

Definitely. It's the sort of thing that comes with experience and careful analysis of (your own) games and performance. That breads an intuition about the game and let's you see further ahead. I've once read that professional chess players actually see the chess board differently from casual and above average players. They don't see the individual pieces and squares you can place a piece. They see the edges of the squares and structures and connections between pieces. And they can "recollect" similar situations from past games and from there "simply" predict what the best next move is.

I play irregularly and on a very casual level. I'm glad I know how the pieces move and some basic strategies. But I don't try to do more complex math in game then some basic "about half of my SM attacks will cause a wound" guestimating. Planning too far ahead and spotting these kinds of possibilities when planning ahead is out of my league. :)

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
Sisters I didn't properly see in action. But I think the unit should be bigger to be a real factor on the battlefield. 10 shots simply don't pose that big a threat, even if they are S4 BS5. In a next list I would drop them to upgrade the flamespire to a frostheart (for a more aggressive list) or drop the flamespire and double them in size (for a more defensive list).

This is interesting. I've seen 20 with the Handmaiden for Quick to Fire. I also feel the Swordmasters are too small here. I remember an old quote from Seredain where he said that if forced to Flee these he'd probably already done something wrong.

He's not wrong of course. If you flee because you have no other option and not because you've laid a trap somewhere then something has gone wrong at some point. And it's hard to recover from something like that. It's a bit similar to a mage blasting a surprising large hole in your battleline. It leaves you on the run. Which is never a good thing.

In the current iteration of the list, the SM are too big to be a disposable unit. For that I would simply bring only 10 for half the points (almost). But they are too central, small and fragile for the central role they have. I think 20 is the minimum for a SM unit in this kind of list. in 3 ranks they would dish out a dangerous 26 S5 WS6 attacks. And they could lose 5 to 7 models without impacting their output too much. With 5 more I could have held and seen what a meatgrinder does to a unit of TG. This is one of their differences with a unit of PG. While of course they lose some of the threat as a unit of 15, you can be relatively certain they will stay intact under a lot of pressure. The virtual 30 wounds they have vs most attacks takes a while to get through after all.

I think 20 quick to fire Sisters are a scary shooting threat. Especially if you also give the bow of averlorn to the handmaiden. That's a lot of mobile firepower. They could form the basis of a great HE shooty list. Add a couple of RBT and Alith Anar. Good fun. For this list though I wonder if they offer enough to be worth the investment.

SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
In a more aggressive version of the list I'm wondering how he would fare paired up with Eltharion on stormwing. I have no experience with him. But I've got him assembled and waiting to be painted. This would involve dropping the archmage. But it still leaves 4 levels of magic on the table

Interesting, two medium-level threats. Losing the Scroll might hurt, especially given these big guys that might need it's cover.

Yeah, no scroll could hurt. On the other hand, being on two monsters makes them fast enough to perhaps not let magic play too big a role. The more aggressive your list, the less time your opponent has to react with magic. And magic remains fickle. If you only have one or two magic phases to deal with a threat then one small phase means you can forget about magic as an option. Though only a +2 to dispel could hurt a lot.

It would make it a very different list though. Where almost the only thing unchanged is the dragon mage. I would buff the SH bus to be bigger (15-ish models I think). Reduce the archers. Drop either the sisters (probably) or the RBT (and increase the sisters to a more formidable size). Drop the eagle, upgrade the phoenix to a frostheart. Bring WL (or perhaps PG) in special. And I would consider dropping the chariot as well. Sounds like a fun list. But very different. Maybe something for my next game ;)

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Definitely. It's the sort of thing that comes with experience and careful analysis of (your own) games and performance. That breads an intuition about the game and let's you see further ahead. I've once read that professional chess players actually see the chess board differently from casual and above average players. They don't see the individual pieces and squares you can place a piece. They see the edges of the squares and structures and connections between pieces. And they can "recollect" similar situations from past games and from there "simply" predict what the best next move is.

As someone who played tournament chess for 20 years I can largely confirm this Rod. But simply, the stronger you are, the more this applies.

Prince of Spires wrote:
In the current iteration of the list, the SM are too big to be a disposable unit. For that I would simply bring only 10 for half the points (almost). But they are too central, small and fragile for the central role they have. I think 20 is the minimum for a SM unit in this kind of list. in 3 ranks they would dish out a dangerous 26 S5 WS6 attacks. And they could lose 5 to 7 models without impacting their output too much. With 5 more I could have held and seen what a meatgrinder does to a unit of TG.

Agreed. World Dragon would be really important here for an all-comers list.

Prince of Spires wrote:
If you only have one or two magic phases to deal with a threat then one small phase means you can forget about magic as an option.

I'd worry that a magic-heavy enemy could be toting Arcane Items or abilities that get past this. Low magic phases tend to mean exactly one spell gets cast and if the guy has a Power Stone or something better they can really hurt. I recall Seredain murdering a Witch Elf block with Convocation in exactly this manner. Gateway or especially Banishment for example are not that hard to cast and hurt a list with big targets more than an MSU roster.

Prince of Spires wrote:
It would make it a very different list though. Where almost the only thing unchanged is the dragon mage. I would buff the SH bus to be bigger (15-ish models I think). Reduce the archers. Drop either the sisters (probably) or the RBT (and increase the sisters to a more formidable size). Drop the eagle, upgrade the phoenix to a frostheart. Bring WL (or perhaps PG) in special. And I would consider dropping the chariot as well. Sounds like a fun list. But very different. Maybe something for my next game

Keen to see this list!

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:24 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:
It would make it a very different list though. Where almost the only thing unchanged is the dragon mage. I would buff the SH bus to be bigger (15-ish models I think). Reduce the archers. Drop either the sisters (probably) or the RBT (and increase the sisters to a more formidable size). Drop the eagle, upgrade the phoenix to a frostheart. Bring WL (or perhaps PG) in special. And I would consider dropping the chariot as well. Sounds like a fun list. But very different. Maybe something for my next game

Keen to see this list!

:)

here you go :)

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