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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:57 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Firstly Dwellers. The reason this wasn't cast for the whole game was that Liam wasn't willing to without having Throne of Vines up for Miscast protection and I kept dispelling that.


This is it. A big spell that he didn't need to 6-dice. A must to dispel, it would have affected the rest of your phase. The rest of the lore is not that big of a deal, as it protects and heals what is already a decently survivable army. It lacks projection of power and this was a big thing here. He just couldn't push that advantage.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:32 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
This is it. A big spell that he didn't need to 6-dice.

Certainly, once the Slann gets within 12" he can 5-dice it reliably as he only needs to roll a 14. Outside that he can try it but it's much closer to a 50-50 thing. Granted he can cast it through a Skink Priest, I always forget this!

RE.Lee wrote:
It lacks projection of power

Exactly. The siggy Slann has a varied repertoire he can hurt you with at range. Dwellers is a very blunt instrument.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Conclusion

So Rob, my second round opponent won the tournament, beating Lynsey's Skaven on Table 1. She finished second. An interesting Daemon army with plenty of Slaanesh just squeezed me out of third by a few points. It's player was on Table 3 last round but won bigger than I did, so I ended up fourth. This is the second time I've played at Worcester and the events have a nice atmosphere. I'm getting more used to the unusual scoring system. Their next event is in October, so I hope to report back from that!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:11 am 
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Fourth isn't bad (says he, who never attended a tournament in his life :lol: )! Out of how many was that?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:49 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Fourth isn't bad (says he, who never attended a tournament in his life :lol: )! Out of how many was that?

Three *DUN DUN DUNN!*

Seriously though, good job :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:23 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
RE.Lee wrote:
Fourth isn't bad (says he, who never attended a tournament in his life :lol: )! Out of how many was that?

Three *DUN DUN DUNN!*

:lol:

Congrats on 4th place indeed. Especially after facing the chaos dwarves round 2 and losing the archmage T1 spell 1 in game 3 it's a good finish.

The Lizardmen player failed to capitalise on your loss of the archmage. He either should have held back and played very conservatively. After all, you were down 300pts turn 1 and he had some serious magical superiority or he should have gone all in in a more aggressive way. Which also means powering some more spells through. Now, he sort of walked right into your army and let you chop up enough pieces for a nice win.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:59 pm 
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RE.Lee wrote:
Out of how many was that?

Luna Guardian wrote:
Three *DUN DUN DUNN!*

Prince of Spires wrote:
:lol:

Close! Ten actually, we had a couple of dropouts. Thanks guys, at least there were no trophies to miss out on this time!

Prince of Spires wrote:
The Lizardmen player failed to capitalise on your loss of the archmage. He either should have held back and played very conservatively. After all, you were down 300pts turn 1 and he had some serious magical superiority or he should have gone all in in a more aggressive way. Which also means powering some more spells through. Now, he sort of walked right into your army and let you chop up enough pieces for a nice win.

I agree Rod. I've fought this kind of game before and knew I had a good chance if not too many dice rolls went wrong. Liam I suspect was not used to this kind of elf play. I've won games before where an opponent has a solid list, deploys sensibly by the book but doesn't adjust enough to what's coming from across the table.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:44 am 
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Perhaps there is also a bit of psychology at work here. Your opponent (perhaps unconsciously) felt like he was ahead by a long way right from the start of the game and so perhaps didn't give his best. Slightly less concentration, a little bit more relaxed and so on. Not that he decided to play a bad game (or that he didn't play solid), just maybe 90% instead of 100%.

You on the other hand perhaps started out feeling you were down a long way from the start and you had to give it your best effort. So, slightly more concentration then normal, perhaps a bit more calculations on the different odds and so on. So playing at 105% instead of 100%. It doesn't happen consciously. But humans are wired in such a way that external factors such as this play a big role in the outcome. We're efficient creatures. So if our mind decides that 90% is enough it's very hard to go all out.

I also agree that elf lists such as yours need a bit of a different approach. You can't just walk straight forward and take it on. It's too flexible and mobile if played right. When the dust settles, the elf unit you focussed on will be gone (like your spearmen this game), but so will the rest of your army.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:19 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Perhaps there is also a bit of psychology at work here.

Good point Rod. Funnily enough, the Archmage probably wasn't the worst thing to lose early doors. Facing such an awesome magic defence he probably wouldn't have got much through anyway. Plus the scroll was more important than his +3 to dispel, in the grand scheme of things.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Implications

Game One went pretty smoothly. The list functioned as it was supposed to and I feel my tactics were fine. Game Three was obviously a bit less comfortable but the way the list coped with the early setback of losing the Archmage was pleasing. 6-dicing Convocation on the Skinks was clearly a mistake, possibly it would have been worth a try if I'd got the AM into range of a Saurus block. This highlighted the advantage in Game One of having that spell on the Mage, though losing him and especially his scroll, would also have hurt big time.

Game Two was a different animal. As discussed under that game I don't think a direct assault would have worked. First, the Frostheart gets shot down, then the Hellcannon and spells hammer the Helm Bus and kill the characters. Then massed Deathshrieker templates take out the Swordmasters. This happens fast because of the Engineer re-rolls.

My last game at Northampton saw the Swordmasters stymied because World Dragon was in the Helms. Hence here at Worcester I reversed this and the Swordmasters performed better in games One and Three. But Game Two really found this list choice out. The Bus was pretty much naked in the face of such Magical firepower and World Dragon didn't protect the Swordmasters at all from the Deathshriekers.

Had I run the Worcester set-up, the Swordmasters would have had Ironcurse Icon and Lichebone Pennant to stack with Shield of Saphery for likely at least a 5+ Ward. The Helms with World Dragon become pretty much proof against Hellcannon and spells and very hard for the Chaos Dwarfs to deal with. Sure, the Swordmasters suffer more in certain other match-ups but the fact that I still won that third game at Northampton suggests to me that I had the list balance right at that event.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:49 am 
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Would you have still won the 1st and 3rd game with the banner on the helms though?

Game 2 was a pretty min-max list, from an unusual army. I'm not sure you can count on running into it again. So changing a core principle from the list based on a single game might not be the best of ideas. Perhaps, as a mental exercise, it's a good idea to consider what a regular dwarf gunline would have looked like, and what the implications for your list would have been. How much of the shooting in that case is magical? And would it go for the helms or the SM first? How would you tackle such a game, assuming a similar battlefield / deployment?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Would you have still won the 1st and 3rd game with the banner on the helms though?

Yes Rod. In Game One the Chaos Warriors might have held for longer with the BSB's magic sword actually doing some damage. But I don't think it would have made enough of a difference.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Game 2 was a pretty min-max list, from an unusual army. I'm not sure you can count on running into it again. So changing a core principle from the list based on a single game might not be the best of ideas.

Here's a quote from the great man which sums up how I feel about this:

Seredain wrote:
I want to create an army which can play against anything and have a good chance of winning. If I were kidnapped tomorrow by masked men and transported somewhere by plane, at night, I'd like to think I could play a competitive game without having any idea about where I was. This rules out several expensive set-ups for me which are actually very effective against many, even most, enemy armies. For example: mounted monsters (because of cannons), gunlines (because of the Storm Banner etc - even though I've only faced it once!), all-magic armies (many more dice rolls happen before a spell is successfully cast - so it's more prone to weird results, there are lots of anti-magic items out there, Dwarfs will always exist and after all that my mages can still just explode). Effectively, I try and build an army without thinking about my local scene, at all.

I'd disagree that World Dragon on the Swordmasters is a core principle of the list. The bottom line, as espoused above, is that if I turn up and realise I have no chance of beating what's in front of me, that won't do. The list needs to be changed, even if that makes some other match-ups more difficult.

Prince of Spires wrote:
How much of the shooting in that case is magical?

All the War Machines and hence most of the threat.

Prince of Spires wrote:
And would it go for the helms or the SM first?

Usually the Helms because they're faster.

Prince of Spires wrote:
How would you tackle such a game, assuming a similar battlefield / deployment?

With World Dragon in the Swordmasters, putting all the characters in there and rushing the enemy can be very effective. But there are things like Gyrocopters to worry about. With World Dragon in the Helms, massed Crossbows or Irondrakes could be an issue. Either way, that unit is a huge threat because Runic Weapons are virtually useless against it. Whether the Dwarfs roll army-wide Hatred matters too. You do not want to get stuck in a grind with Hammerers, so Eagling them or something while the bus finds a weak spot is probably necessary.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:46 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I'd disagree that World Dragon on the Swordmasters is a core principle of the list. The bottom line, as espoused above, is that if I turn up and realise I have no chance of beating what's in front of me, that won't do. The list needs to be changed, even if that makes some other match-ups more difficult.

A very commendable goal. Just be careful when changing things around that you don't make the list a lot worse against everyone else. An important part of Seredain's statement is that you need to stay away from tailoring your army to a specific opponent. And that is the risk here. Which was behind the rest of my questions.

What if you would switch the SM for something else? We've talked about this option before. SM need a bit more babysitting then the other elite infantry. Or possibly even a unit of DP's.

SpellArcher wrote:
With World Dragon in the Swordmasters, putting all the characters in there and rushing the enemy can be very effective.

Would this have been an option vs the chaos dwarves? Put all characters in the SM, screen them with the SH and rush in as fast as possible to get into combat T3.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
A very commendable goal. Just be careful when changing things around that you don't make the list a lot worse against everyone else. An important part of Seredain's statement is that you need to stay away from tailoring your army to a specific opponent. And that is the risk here. Which was behind the rest of my questions.

The Chaos Dwarf game wasn't fun Rod. I'd have gladly taken much smaller wins in the other two to give myself a fighting chance here.

What misled me was the durability of the Helms based on armour in previous games. As soon as they ran into an opponent with good anti-armour, they were effectively toast and had to hide. Plenty more such opponents exist. Not to mention the horrible vulnerability of the characters to sniping spells. I do not have the option of building a bigger bus with a protective mage in for example. World Dragon is so good for them because most damage magic becomes irrelevant and a lot of the most dangerous anti-armour shooting (Hellcannon, Organ Guns, Enchanted Arrows) is Magical.

Prince of Spires wrote:
What if you would switch the SM for something else? We've talked about this option before. SM need a bit more babysitting then the other elite infantry. Or possibly even a unit of DP's.

The army concept depends on fielding elite infantry really. I'd love to run PG but I just don't have the models. I'd thought of adapting the old metal Black Guard but that's a serious Ebay project. With some changes I might be able to field White Lions but those gel worse with Shield of Saphery I believe and they really need World Dragon to counter the Lion Cloak vulnerability to Magical shooting.

The Swordmasters did pretty well, running into two respectable Infantry blocks and doing a number on each and that wasn't really down to World Dragon. I think with a 5+ AS and very likely a 5+ Ward they are reasonably protected from ranged attacks. Yes I held them back last tournament vs the Dwarfs but that was because the Helms and Frostheart were already clearing the enemy flank and I was heading for a sensible small win. World Dragon to permit an infantry rush would have been great but maybe against a competent Dwarf player it is too much to expect a big victory. Virtually every previous game I can recall was a minor loss!

Prince of Spires wrote:
Would this have been an option vs the chaos dwarves? Put all characters in the SM, screen them with the SH and rush in as fast as possible to get into combat T3.

Yes and with a lot of luck it might have worked. More likely though, the three laser-guided Deathshriekers pick off the mounted characters because these lack Look out Sir. The War Machine attacks are not Magical (and nor are those from a K'daai Destroyer believe it or not!). Then the unit has nothing to deal with the Skullcracker.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:23 am 
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Tweaking

So in a few weeks I'm heading back to Northampton for a reprise of the tourney I played in March:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=136607

Three games of Battle Line, no End Times, 25% Lords and Heroes. The first game is 1000pts+, the second 1500pts+, the third 2000pts+. The + will be in each game a unit of Allied Glade Guard and a Frostheart, like last time. This time though, I can squeeze in an extra Eagle for free. I've decided to take pretty much the same lists as last time, so the question is, what to do with 50 spare points for each list, or whether to just add the Eagle? I'll post the existing 1000pt list soon.


Edit:

Archmage, High Magic, 5+ Ward, Dispel Scroll

10 Archers, Musician
5 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command

18 Swordmasters, FC, World Dragon

2 RBT
Eagle

14 Glade Guard, Musician, Eternal Flame
Frost Phoenix

I'm 10 points under 25% with the Archmage and the Core is 5pts over. Tempted to just add the second Eagle here but any ideas welcome!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:10 am 
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I remember the reports. They were fun games I think.

How about dropping the first eagle? This would give you 100 points to play with, which could get you some interesting stuff. Yes, you lose your redirector. But at 1000 pts, you could get away with not having it. Especially since you have other stuff that could replace its role if needed. Both the archers and the SH are semi disposable if needed.

You could get a skycutter (for 95pts or if you drop one or two SM probably include the bolt thrower on it). Or a tiranoc chariot. Or, again if you drop some SM a Lion chariot. Another small unit of SM is also an option. Or a larger unit of SW. Or a lvl 1 mage. Or another RBT and some other stuff.

That would be my choice. I think at 1500pts (what you're effectively playing), having extra boots on the ground beats the redirector.

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:13 am 
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You have plenty of shooting and solid magic so I guess you'll be going on the defensive for the most part. Having that extra eagle to redirect any incoming threats is very useful, though perhaps a bit overkill at 1k? A chariot, like Rod mentioned, would give you a nice counter-charge threat, too. Personally I love eagles :D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
How about dropping the first eagle?

Unfortunately I can't do this Rod. I get 300 bonus points to spend from Monsters, Monstrous Beasts and Monstrous Infantry (from an aligned book, no Beasts of Nurgle sadly!). The Frostheart is a no-brainer, which pretty much leaves points for an Eagle.

RE.Lee wrote:
A chariot, like Rod mentioned, would give you a nice counter-charge threat, too.

I'd probably have to drop a couple of Swordmasters and/or command figures RE. As it stands I only have two combat units but they're pretty solid ones so I'm not sure really. I like the idea though.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:33 pm 
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Well, in that case I'd go for another eagle 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:23 pm 
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I think both ways would be fine but the tourney has been postponed so I have time to ponder!

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