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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:19 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
skirmishers with 360 LOS

The funny thing is, I played so many games in earlier editions with this rule. Sometimes even now, I forget that in 8th it's not the case!

elendor_f wrote:
I moved the remaining Silver Helm from the second unit to redirect

Good thinking.

elendor_f wrote:
Finally the Giant Rats declared a charge against my Reavers and was successful by one quarter of an inch

I always found that unit troublesome on a flank.

elendor_f wrote:
In the compulsory moves phase the Abomination pivoted to face my cavalry and rolled like 13 inches with was enough to charge my Helms, something I completely didn't account for

It's so easy to forget this. 8th style Random Movement is a killer.

elendor_f wrote:
Was the restriction to target lone characters removed in 7ed or 8ed?

In 8th it is replaced by a 'Look out Sir' saving throw of 4+ if they are within 3" of a qualifying unit.

Overall I think the problem here was not having played much! So much of the game is getting used to the rhythm of it, which plays follow which etc.. The more you play, the more fluid and easy your moves become and the better you do. Thanks very much for this elendor, looking forward to the next one!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:32 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Overall I think the problem here was not having played much! So much of the game is getting used to the rhythm of it, which plays follow which etc.. The more you play, the more fluid and easy your moves become and the better you do. Thanks very much for this elendor, looking forward to the next one!
:)

Thanks for the comments and glad that you enjoyed the report! :D

I am planning to attend a gaming club nearby my town (the local club has moved to AoS apparently) whenever I am free from deadlines from work, but I think they play The 9th Age more than 6ed. In any way either I try T9A and learn or find some old school fan, so win-win.
I have already prepared a list for T9A and all.

Btw on light of the tournament it got me thinking that perhaps my current army list for 6ed, while not bad, could use some tweaks.

Current list:
Archmage, level 4, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer
Noble on elven steed, ithilmar barding, dragon armour, great weapon, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix
20 Spearelves, full command, Lion Standard
10 Archers
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Dragon Princes, full command, Banner of Arcane Protection
5 Ellyrion Reavers
11 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Blessed Tome
1 Tiranoc Chariot
2 RBTs
2 Eagles

Some things I noticed from the games were that nobody was directing any spell against my Dragon Princes because they were either too far from the enemy Wizards or there were other juicy targets (in fairness my second opponent didn't run any magic).
On the other side the Swordmasters are a desirable target for enemy magic so if I include extra magic defense in a unit it should be on them.

Besides, the Blessed Tome was sort of helpful but not that amazing and 6 inches is pretty short range which forces the SM to be close to the Spears most of the time.

Finally, having one Noble is nice because it allows for more troops but I missed having some extra combat power in the centre, perhaps I am biased because my Chariot always rolled low hits.

So I decided to swap around some stuff and make this one

Archmage, level 4, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer
Noble on elven steed, ithilmar barding, great weapon, Armour of Protection
Noble on foot, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
19 Spearelves, full command, Lion Standard
10 Archers
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Dragon Princes, full command, War Banner
5 Ellyrion Reavers
15 Swordmasters, Standard Bearer, Banner of Ellyrion, Bladelord, Amulet of the Purifying Flame
2 RBTs
1 Eagle

The Spearelves are joined by a shiny new Noble on foot with S5 due to the magical sword and a 2+ re-rollable armor save.
Since the Noble on foot needs the Helm of Fortune to get his protection, I decide to give the mounted Noble the Armour of Protection for 40p (light armour which provides a 4+ ward save) and get rid of the Guardian Phoenix.
This removes the need for the Blessed Tome so I gave the Bladelord the Amulet for 15p (spells targeting the unit suffer from a -3 to the cast value).
The Dragon Princes don't need the Banner of Arcane Protection (40p) so I give them the War Banner to help them win combats harder.
The price for the Noble is paid by removing the Chariot and the savings from reorganizing the magical objects.

I could have stopped here but I was thinking on the wonderful Banner of Ellyrion which allows a unit to ignore difficult terrain for movement for 15p, and I think it can be pretty neat for the Swordmasters since it allows you to seek cover but move freely (terrain in 6ed limits movement a lot since you move at half your value) and appear from unexpected places.
As a last thought I decided to remove one Eagle to get an extra rank of SMs, making the unit 15 models strong.

The new list has the same core (4 small cavalry units, block of Spears and shooting) but the support for the Spears is stronger due to the Noble (Leadership and S5 attacks) and the bigger Swordmaster unit which is more flexible due to ignoring difficult terrain.
The shooting and magic are the same as before, with the magic defense slightly better placed (although I still carry only 4 DD and one Scroll, forcing me to depend on High Magic against some armies).
As a disadvantage I have less redirectors (only 1 Eagle and the Reavers) and no Chariot, which can be used as a tool to support infantry or cavalry due to the long charge range. This means that sometimes I may need to use the Helms as redirectors.
Also the mounted Noble is less protected due to giving the Helm of Fortune to the Noble on foot, but hopefully a 4+ Ward Save compensates for the low AS (only 4+ now). I noticed that most opponents don't direct attacks to the mounted Noble because they assume he has a lot of magical protection so it is only relevant for challenges.

Edit
I was thinking that although the Banner of Ellyrion on the SM might increase their flexibility, in the end they are still slow, and probably the Dragon Princes (whose barding does not decrease their M) can use it more effectively to maneuver and get advantageous charges,
At the same time, the SM are more vulnerable to the autobreak from Fear+Outnumber than the Spearelves.
So I swapped the banners around giving Lion Standard to SM, Ellyrion to DPs and War Banner to Spears.

Now I am considering if downsizing from 15 to 12 SM (6x2 instead of 5x3) and removing the Musician on the DPs is worth to include a second Eagle.

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Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Last edited by elendor_f on Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:59 am 
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elendor_f wrote:
I made really silly mistakes with misjudging charges and maneuvers, but I learned hard lessons so next time I will play better.

I think this is key to becoming a better player. It's realising that you made some mistakes, that losing wasn't because of dice and that there are some valuable lessons which will help you improve for next game.

Of course, playing more should also increase the speed of the game and let you get more turns in. Which will also allow for more complex tactics. I remember reading a report (I think it was from Seredain), where he spend 3 turns just getting stuf in position for combined charges in T4-5.

I think your observation on the SM vs DP getting targeted with ranged attacks is correct. One reason is that SM make a great target (expensive T3 models with only a 5+ save), the other is that SM can be very deadly if they get into combat with anything, although this was perhaps more the case in late 7th, early 8th edition. And another reason is that DP's tend to be very bad targets for ranged attacks. Too fast to get any meaningful shooting / magic in them and a high save makes them less good a target then SM. And also, if you can get the DP's stuck in combat for a couple of turns they are a lot less scary then the SM are.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:04 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
I made really silly mistakes with misjudging charges and maneuvers, but I learned hard lessons so next time I will play better.

I think this is key to becoming a better player. It's realising that you made some mistakes, that losing wasn't because of dice and that there are some valuable lessons which will help you improve for next game.

Well said! In any strategic game there is randomness but it is mostly opt-in, in the end the decisions and risks the player takes are what makes or breaks the game.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Of course, playing more should also increase the speed of the game and let you get more turns in. Which will also allow for more complex tactics. I remember reading a report (I think it was from Seredain), where he spend 3 turns just getting stuf in position for combined charges in T4-5.

I think your observation on the SM vs DP getting targeted with ranged attacks is correct. One reason is that SM make a great target (expensive T3 models with only a 5+ save), the other is that SM can be very deadly if they get into combat with anything, although this was perhaps more the case in late 7th, early 8th edition. And another reason is that DP's tend to be very bad targets for ranged attacks. Too fast to get any meaningful shooting / magic in them and a high save makes them less good a target then SM. And also, if you can get the DP's stuck in combat for a couple of turns they are a lot less scary then the SM are.

Rod

I am really busy at the moment but I really want to play more often (9th Age or 6ed I don't mind) to get back to speed.

Indeed all the reasons you mention are true and I should have considered it before giving magic defense to the DPs. I kind of thought that nobody would bother much with a 10 man unit of Swordmasters, but they still make a great target and people overestimate them (there is no Speed of Asuryan in 6ed).

I come with a question I am having with my dual Noble builds.
In the tournament list I had only one mounted Noble with 2+ re-rollable AS and 5+ Ward Save, quite tanky for the 50 points of magical items. This allowed him to carry a great weapon to help the DPs in case they got stuck, and also to protect them from killy enemy characters by being able to survive a challenge (unless the enemy has an ignore AS weapon).

However by adding a Noble on foot I have to split the cheap magical defense items.
I consider the options:

1.
Mounted Noble: Armour of Protection, GW: AS 4+ Ward 4+, strikes last when not charging.
Noble on foot: Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Helm of Fortune: S5, attacks on Initiative when not charging, AS 2+ rerollable, no ward save.

2.
Mounted Noble: Armour of Protection, Lance, Shield: AS 3+ Ward 4+, +2S on charge.
Noble on foot: Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Helm of Fortune: S5, attacks on Initiative when not charging, AS 2+ rerollable, no ward save.

3. Mounted Noble: Armour of Protection, Lance, Enchanted Shield: AS 2+ Ward 4+, +2S on charge.
Noble on foot: hand weapon, shield, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix: S4, 2+ rerollable AS, 5+ Ward.

Essentially the point is, the Enchanted Shield allows for the guy on foot to have S5 and 2+ reroll AS but leaves the mounted guy with a poor AS (4+) and a GW or with a medium AS (3+) but +2S only on charge with the Lance.
If I give the Enchanted Shield to the mounted guy, he gets a good AS save (2+) but forces the guy on foot to be only a tank guy (2+ reroll 5+ ward but S4).

It is a trade-off between combat power and defense, and I am not sure if I am focusing too much on giving cheap heroes Ward saves (one can argue that they are cheap enough not to care if they die), but since one is Pure of Heart you lose Victory Points if he dies, plus if one is the General you also lose points.

The role of the mounted Noble is to add damage to the DPs so the GW is kind of an insurance in case the combat goes beyond first round. However by choosing the combat wisely (and DPs sure have a lot of M to choose their charges) the Lance may be sufficient.
The role of the Noble on foot is much more defensive, he gives a LD bubble to infantry and can absorb damage from enemy champions/characters by issuing challenges. In order to do that he needs very good defense, but having S5 is nice to help the Spears or the SM in combat.

Sorry if I am overthinking this one but I am quite interested in the opinion of more experienced players.
Also this is the kind of situation that the 7th book solved with Speed of Asuryan, you give a GW to everyone not carrying a magical weapon :lol:

P.S. Btw another option is to forget about Ward saves for the mounted Noble and give him a 2+ AS with mundane equipment, a lance, and the Radiant Gem of Hoeth to strengthen the Magic phase (especially from 4 to 5 dispersion dice is quite noticeable, and having 8 PD instead of 7 is nice).

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"They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:34 pm 
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I'd go for Sword of Might on the foot guy. S5 means something in 6th and 2+ RR also. I've seen the build in the army of a very strong player.

Probably Lance and a good armour save on the horsed guy because you're running MSU cavalry elendor. With bigger units I'd have been tempted to go for the Great Weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:54 am 
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I agree with SA about the on foot guy. Handweapon is not good enough in almost all cases (it makes him only slightly better and a lot more expensive then a spearelf). And S5 is pretty impressive.

For the mounted guy I'm not sure. Rubber lance syndrome is an issue (assuming he goes in a cav unit of course, which doesn't necessarily need to be the case in 6th). And a GW is a way to mitigate that. However, the 4+ AS is what makes me wonder here. Yes, it's followed by a 4+ ward. But when going last in a second round of combat, it can really start hurting. Still, the alternative is striking at S3 in a round where you didn't charge. Which also doesn't do much.

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

Check out my plog
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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:28 pm 
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It's true that S5 is important so he actually does damage, otherwise the Noble on foot is just very resilient, which is not much if he can't help offensively. Leaving him with S4 just to the mounted guy can have the Enchanted Shield isn't worth.

For the mounted Noble I guess SpellArcher is right, MSU cavalry is weak in grinding, their advantage is being able to setup combined charges in a favorable position, and having the GW on the Noble will not be enough.
If the cavalry gets stuck after the charge the way to set the correct play is to have other cavalry units ready for a charge next turn (and making sure that the enemy won't destroy your cavalry in their turn :lol: )
The Ward save is nice but I think many players do not bother to attack a Hero level character because he isn't worth that many points and it is more advantageous to try to kill his unit, so perhaps I should give him a utility item instead like the Radiant Gem or the Ring of Fury.

Quote:
Rubber lance syndrome is an issue (assuming he goes in a cav unit of course, which doesn't necessarily need to be the case in 6th).

I know people included cavalry characters in infantry for the extra armour but I don't like it much and it makes him lose the LOS save. But for having a guy with GW in infantry who doesn't die to a breeze it would be the best option.

Thanks for your insights :D

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