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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:19 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
skirmishers with 360 LOS

The funny thing is, I played so many games in earlier editions with this rule. Sometimes even now, I forget that in 8th it's not the case!

elendor_f wrote:
I moved the remaining Silver Helm from the second unit to redirect

Good thinking.

elendor_f wrote:
Finally the Giant Rats declared a charge against my Reavers and was successful by one quarter of an inch

I always found that unit troublesome on a flank.

elendor_f wrote:
In the compulsory moves phase the Abomination pivoted to face my cavalry and rolled like 13 inches with was enough to charge my Helms, something I completely didn't account for

It's so easy to forget this. 8th style Random Movement is a killer.

elendor_f wrote:
Was the restriction to target lone characters removed in 7ed or 8ed?

In 8th it is replaced by a 'Look out Sir' saving throw of 4+ if they are within 3" of a qualifying unit.

Overall I think the problem here was not having played much! So much of the game is getting used to the rhythm of it, which plays follow which etc.. The more you play, the more fluid and easy your moves become and the better you do. Thanks very much for this elendor, looking forward to the next one!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:32 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Overall I think the problem here was not having played much! So much of the game is getting used to the rhythm of it, which plays follow which etc.. The more you play, the more fluid and easy your moves become and the better you do. Thanks very much for this elendor, looking forward to the next one!
:)

Thanks for the comments and glad that you enjoyed the report! :D

I am planning to attend a gaming club nearby my town (the local club has moved to AoS apparently) whenever I am free from deadlines from work, but I think they play The 9th Age more than 6ed. In any way either I try T9A and learn or find some old school fan, so win-win.
I have already prepared a list for T9A and all.

Btw on light of the tournament it got me thinking that perhaps my current army list for 6ed, while not bad, could use some tweaks.

Current list:
Archmage, level 4, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer
Noble on elven steed, ithilmar barding, dragon armour, great weapon, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix
20 Spearelves, full command, Lion Standard
10 Archers
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Dragon Princes, full command, Banner of Arcane Protection
5 Ellyrion Reavers
11 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Blessed Tome
1 Tiranoc Chariot
2 RBTs
2 Eagles

Some things I noticed from the games were that nobody was directing any spell against my Dragon Princes because they were either too far from the enemy Wizards or there were other juicy targets (in fairness my second opponent didn't run any magic).
On the other side the Swordmasters are a desirable target for enemy magic so if I include extra magic defense in a unit it should be on them.

Besides, the Blessed Tome was sort of helpful but not that amazing and 6 inches is pretty short range which forces the SM to be close to the Spears most of the time.

Finally, having one Noble is nice because it allows for more troops but I missed having some extra combat power in the centre, perhaps I am biased because my Chariot always rolled low hits.

So I decided to swap around some stuff and make this one

Archmage, level 4, Ring of Corin, Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll, Seer
Noble on elven steed, ithilmar barding, great weapon, Armour of Protection
Noble on foot, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
19 Spearelves, full command, Lion Standard
10 Archers
5 Silver Helms
5 Silver Helms
5 Dragon Princes, full command, War Banner
5 Ellyrion Reavers
15 Swordmasters, Standard Bearer, Banner of Ellyrion, Bladelord, Amulet of the Purifying Flame
2 RBTs
1 Eagle

The Spearelves are joined by a shiny new Noble on foot with S5 due to the magical sword and a 2+ re-rollable armor save.
Since the Noble on foot needs the Helm of Fortune to get his protection, I decide to give the mounted Noble the Armour of Protection for 40p (light armour which provides a 4+ ward save) and get rid of the Guardian Phoenix.
This removes the need for the Blessed Tome so I gave the Bladelord the Amulet for 15p (spells targeting the unit suffer from a -3 to the cast value).
The Dragon Princes don't need the Banner of Arcane Protection (40p) so I give them the War Banner to help them win combats harder.
The price for the Noble is paid by removing the Chariot and the savings from reorganizing the magical objects.

I could have stopped here but I was thinking on the wonderful Banner of Ellyrion which allows a unit to ignore difficult terrain for movement for 15p, and I think it can be pretty neat for the Swordmasters since it allows you to seek cover but move freely (terrain in 6ed limits movement a lot since you move at half your value) and appear from unexpected places.
As a last thought I decided to remove one Eagle to get an extra rank of SMs, making the unit 15 models strong.

The new list has the same core (4 small cavalry units, block of Spears and shooting) but the support for the Spears is stronger due to the Noble (Leadership and S5 attacks) and the bigger Swordmaster unit which is more flexible due to ignoring difficult terrain.
The shooting and magic are the same as before, with the magic defense slightly better placed (although I still carry only 4 DD and one Scroll, forcing me to depend on High Magic against some armies).
As a disadvantage I have less redirectors (only 1 Eagle and the Reavers) and no Chariot, which can be used as a tool to support infantry or cavalry due to the long charge range. This means that sometimes I may need to use the Helms as redirectors.
Also the mounted Noble is less protected due to giving the Helm of Fortune to the Noble on foot, but hopefully a 4+ Ward Save compensates for the low AS (only 4+ now). I noticed that most opponents don't direct attacks to the mounted Noble because they assume he has a lot of magical protection so it is only relevant for challenges.

Edit
I was thinking that although the Banner of Ellyrion on the SM might increase their flexibility, in the end they are still slow, and probably the Dragon Princes (whose barding does not decrease their M) can use it more effectively to maneuver and get advantageous charges,
At the same time, the SM are more vulnerable to the autobreak from Fear+Outnumber than the Spearelves.
So I swapped the banners around giving Lion Standard to SM, Ellyrion to DPs and War Banner to Spears.

Now I am considering if downsizing from 15 to 12 SM (6x2 instead of 5x3) and removing the Musician on the DPs is worth to include a second Eagle.

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Last edited by elendor_f on Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:59 am 
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elendor_f wrote:
I made really silly mistakes with misjudging charges and maneuvers, but I learned hard lessons so next time I will play better.

I think this is key to becoming a better player. It's realising that you made some mistakes, that losing wasn't because of dice and that there are some valuable lessons which will help you improve for next game.

Of course, playing more should also increase the speed of the game and let you get more turns in. Which will also allow for more complex tactics. I remember reading a report (I think it was from Seredain), where he spend 3 turns just getting stuf in position for combined charges in T4-5.

I think your observation on the SM vs DP getting targeted with ranged attacks is correct. One reason is that SM make a great target (expensive T3 models with only a 5+ save), the other is that SM can be very deadly if they get into combat with anything, although this was perhaps more the case in late 7th, early 8th edition. And another reason is that DP's tend to be very bad targets for ranged attacks. Too fast to get any meaningful shooting / magic in them and a high save makes them less good a target then SM. And also, if you can get the DP's stuck in combat for a couple of turns they are a lot less scary then the SM are.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:04 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
I made really silly mistakes with misjudging charges and maneuvers, but I learned hard lessons so next time I will play better.

I think this is key to becoming a better player. It's realising that you made some mistakes, that losing wasn't because of dice and that there are some valuable lessons which will help you improve for next game.

Well said! In any strategic game there is randomness but it is mostly opt-in, in the end the decisions and risks the player takes are what makes or breaks the game.

Prince of Spires wrote:
Of course, playing more should also increase the speed of the game and let you get more turns in. Which will also allow for more complex tactics. I remember reading a report (I think it was from Seredain), where he spend 3 turns just getting stuf in position for combined charges in T4-5.

I think your observation on the SM vs DP getting targeted with ranged attacks is correct. One reason is that SM make a great target (expensive T3 models with only a 5+ save), the other is that SM can be very deadly if they get into combat with anything, although this was perhaps more the case in late 7th, early 8th edition. And another reason is that DP's tend to be very bad targets for ranged attacks. Too fast to get any meaningful shooting / magic in them and a high save makes them less good a target then SM. And also, if you can get the DP's stuck in combat for a couple of turns they are a lot less scary then the SM are.

Rod

I am really busy at the moment but I really want to play more often (9th Age or 6ed I don't mind) to get back to speed.

Indeed all the reasons you mention are true and I should have considered it before giving magic defense to the DPs. I kind of thought that nobody would bother much with a 10 man unit of Swordmasters, but they still make a great target and people overestimate them (there is no Speed of Asuryan in 6ed).

I come with a question I am having with my dual Noble builds.
In the tournament list I had only one mounted Noble with 2+ re-rollable AS and 5+ Ward Save, quite tanky for the 50 points of magical items. This allowed him to carry a great weapon to help the DPs in case they got stuck, and also to protect them from killy enemy characters by being able to survive a challenge (unless the enemy has an ignore AS weapon).

However by adding a Noble on foot I have to split the cheap magical defense items.
I consider the options:

1.
Mounted Noble: Armour of Protection, GW: AS 4+ Ward 4+, strikes last when not charging.
Noble on foot: Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Helm of Fortune: S5, attacks on Initiative when not charging, AS 2+ rerollable, no ward save.

2.
Mounted Noble: Armour of Protection, Lance, Shield: AS 3+ Ward 4+, +2S on charge.
Noble on foot: Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Helm of Fortune: S5, attacks on Initiative when not charging, AS 2+ rerollable, no ward save.

3. Mounted Noble: Armour of Protection, Lance, Enchanted Shield: AS 2+ Ward 4+, +2S on charge.
Noble on foot: hand weapon, shield, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix: S4, 2+ rerollable AS, 5+ Ward.

Essentially the point is, the Enchanted Shield allows for the guy on foot to have S5 and 2+ reroll AS but leaves the mounted guy with a poor AS (4+) and a GW or with a medium AS (3+) but +2S only on charge with the Lance.
If I give the Enchanted Shield to the mounted guy, he gets a good AS save (2+) but forces the guy on foot to be only a tank guy (2+ reroll 5+ ward but S4).

It is a trade-off between combat power and defense, and I am not sure if I am focusing too much on giving cheap heroes Ward saves (one can argue that they are cheap enough not to care if they die), but since one is Pure of Heart you lose Victory Points if he dies, plus if one is the General you also lose points.

The role of the mounted Noble is to add damage to the DPs so the GW is kind of an insurance in case the combat goes beyond first round. However by choosing the combat wisely (and DPs sure have a lot of M to choose their charges) the Lance may be sufficient.
The role of the Noble on foot is much more defensive, he gives a LD bubble to infantry and can absorb damage from enemy champions/characters by issuing challenges. In order to do that he needs very good defense, but having S5 is nice to help the Spears or the SM in combat.

Sorry if I am overthinking this one but I am quite interested in the opinion of more experienced players.
Also this is the kind of situation that the 7th book solved with Speed of Asuryan, you give a GW to everyone not carrying a magical weapon :lol:

P.S. Btw another option is to forget about Ward saves for the mounted Noble and give him a 2+ AS with mundane equipment, a lance, and the Radiant Gem of Hoeth to strengthen the Magic phase (especially from 4 to 5 dispersion dice is quite noticeable, and having 8 PD instead of 7 is nice).

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:34 pm 
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I'd go for Sword of Might on the foot guy. S5 means something in 6th and 2+ RR also. I've seen the build in the army of a very strong player.

Probably Lance and a good armour save on the horsed guy because you're running MSU cavalry elendor. With bigger units I'd have been tempted to go for the Great Weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:54 am 
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I agree with SA about the on foot guy. Handweapon is not good enough in almost all cases (it makes him only slightly better and a lot more expensive then a spearelf). And S5 is pretty impressive.

For the mounted guy I'm not sure. Rubber lance syndrome is an issue (assuming he goes in a cav unit of course, which doesn't necessarily need to be the case in 6th). And a GW is a way to mitigate that. However, the 4+ AS is what makes me wonder here. Yes, it's followed by a 4+ ward. But when going last in a second round of combat, it can really start hurting. Still, the alternative is striking at S3 in a round where you didn't charge. Which also doesn't do much.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:28 pm 
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It's true that S5 is important so he actually does damage, otherwise the Noble on foot is just very resilient, which is not much if he can't help offensively. Leaving him with S4 just to the mounted guy can have the Enchanted Shield isn't worth.

For the mounted Noble I guess SpellArcher is right, MSU cavalry is weak in grinding, their advantage is being able to setup combined charges in a favorable position, and having the GW on the Noble will not be enough.
If the cavalry gets stuck after the charge the way to set the correct play is to have other cavalry units ready for a charge next turn (and making sure that the enemy won't destroy your cavalry in their turn :lol: )
The Ward save is nice but I think many players do not bother to attack a Hero level character because he isn't worth that many points and it is more advantageous to try to kill his unit, so perhaps I should give him a utility item instead like the Radiant Gem or the Ring of Fury.

Quote:
Rubber lance syndrome is an issue (assuming he goes in a cav unit of course, which doesn't necessarily need to be the case in 6th).

I know people included cavalry characters in infantry for the extra armour but I don't like it much and it makes him lose the LOS save. But for having a guy with GW in infantry who doesn't die to a breeze it would be the best option.

Thanks for your insights :D

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Long time no see!

I wanted to inform that another 6ed tournament was organized in Barcelona on 1st of July! It was 2000 points with one special character, to take them out of the shelves once in a while.
I was hoping someone who attended would made a battle report that I could translate and post here even though it may not involve High Elves, but it seems nobody had the time to write one!

There are two more 6ed tournaments planned in Autumn, one at 1500 points (small battles to compensate for the epicness of the special characters) and another one with unknown details yet planned for October.
I am not sure if I can attend either as travelling to Barcelona requires some extra effort for me, but if I do I will definitely post it here :D

I am already thinking about ideas for a 1500 point list that aren't full mounted, I've been thinking about how to make a list based around infantry work (so small supporting cavalry units like Reavers or 5 Helms would be allowed, but no mounted units of 8/10 or 5+Noble) but don't have a concrete idea yet.
I guess RBTs and 2 Level 2 Mages would be standard to compensate for the relative slowness of infantry with firepower.
The spell Unseen Lurker from Shadow Lore seems pretty good for this list (not sure if it was included in 7ed, if you cast it a friendly unit can move 20cm in the magic phase and counts as a charge if you manage to get into contact), and the second mage would serve as extra damage spells (Fire or Heavens Lore) to have enough spells such that the enemy can't simply dispel Unseen Lurker every phase (of course the list can't rely on one spell alone, but it seems good to have that threat in an infantry based list given how important charging is for Elves).

See ya!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:33 pm 
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sounds like great fun. And indeed, all battle reports are welcome, even if there is no HE in them.

For the 1500pts list, it indeed is important to have a reason for your opponent to move. So magic and shooting are important if you're not bringing cavalry. The main problem for this list will be when you run into a true gunline (Dwarves mainly, but perhaps also Empire or skaven). They will have the firepower needed to force you to move. And then your infantry will be on the slow side. Other then that, you should do OK, I think.

Let us know how it goes.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Ah, the 6th edition, our crappiest book ever with all the inbuilt weaknesses GW could think of, and still my favorite edition.

The discussion of magic depends on your meta of course. Will you be playing gentlemanly games with your friends, or cutthroat win-at-all-costs games at the LGS? If the former, there's no wrong way to build a list, throw whatever makes a cool but still playable army together (White Lions, The corresponding honor and 4RBTS and a Prince on foot with the Armor of the Gods and the Radiant Gem of Hoeth with Lore of the Beasts and Bear's Anger) and have fun! If the latter, go for the Seer Counsel or an all-cavalry list. Either way you picked the funnest edition to play IMHO :)

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
Ah, the 6th edition, our crappiest book ever with all the inbuilt weaknesses GW could think of, and still my favorite edition.

The discussion of magic depends on your meta of course. Will you be playing gentlemanly games with your friends, or cutthroat win-at-all-costs games at the LGS? If the former, there's no wrong way to build a list, throw whatever makes a cool but still playable army together (White Lions, The corresponding honor and 4RBTS and a Prince on foot with the Armor of the Gods and the Radiant Gem of Hoeth with Lore of the Beasts and Bear's Anger) and have fun! If the latter, go for the Seer Counsel or an all-cavalry list. Either way you picked the funnest edition to play IMHO :)


Happy to see that people still like 6ed! I actually have never played 7ed or 8ed, as my friends and I stopped playing gradually when 7ed came out.
I remember being upset at the 7ed HE book, to me the ASF was a lazy fix for elven infantry (the crew of the RBT was supposed to be quicker than a Chaos Lord, give me a break :roll: ).

With the 6ed book I think that the designers were trying to push High Elves to a more aggressive style since they were kind of famous for being on the defense in 5ed.
I believe that the relative price of cavalry and infantry is kind of wrong, Silver Helms are a bit too cheap and Spearelves and Archers a bit too expensive.
Also the Rare section is unbalanced since Phoenix Guard and White Lions can hardly compete wit RBTs and Eagles.

The tournaments are mostly gentlemany because after all we are playing an outdated edition and the idea is to have fun while being a bit competitive (at least from what I saw in the tournament I participated at the end of March).
So people bring lists prepared to win, but they won't bring the full blown cheese. So no Skaven Army of Death, no Chariot Spam Beastmen, no 3 Wizards Level 2 with Banner of Sorcery at 1500p, no Tzeentch 14 power dice, no Skink and Cold Ones spam with Nikesaurus Lizardmen, and so on.
We all know the min-max lists and while they can be countered if you bring your own brand of cheese, most of the time it isn't fun to play against them, even if your opponent is a good sport.
So I won't bring an army with only Silver Helms, Chariots :lol:

Prince of Spires wrote:
For the 1500pts list, it indeed is important to have a reason for your opponent to move. So magic and shooting are important if you're not bringing cavalry. The main problem for this list will be when you run into a true gunline (Dwarves mainly, but perhaps also Empire or skaven). They will have the firepower needed to force you to move. And then your infantry will be on the slow side. Other then that, you should do OK, I think.

Your comment reminded me of when I started playing Warhammer (I think I was 13) and my friend who played Dwarves used to slaughter me every game until I bought Eagles and Reavers :lol:
To play against gunlines I think I need to rely on two things, small supporting cavalry units and Metal and Life lore, which have spells that prevent shooting both from BS and war machines.
It is a bad matchup for sure but I think that way it can be played around a bit.

This is a quick list with combined arms that I came up with while doing the laundry, for the infantry list I need to think about it more.

Noble on horse, dragon armor, great weapon, Helm of Fortune, Phoenix Guardian, Pure of Heart (147p)
Mage level 2, Jewel of Dusk, Seer (180p)
Mage level 1, Dispel Scroll (115p)
20 Spearelves, standard bearer, musician (238p)
10 Archers (120p)
5 Silver Helms (115p)
5 Silver Helms, full command, War Banner (170p)
15 Swordmasters, full command (225p)
5 Ellyrion Reavers (90p)
1 RBT (100p)
Total: 1500p exactly

I think a controversial point may be the level 1 Mage, most of the time people bring one level 1 with two scrolls to spend as little as possible, or 2 level 2 tooled up to make the most out of magic.
I think if I would upgrade the second mage I would be tempted to then bring the Banner of Sorcery to really boost the magic phase, but that is quite expensive. If I don't include the level 1 I don't carry a scroll and I lose one DD.

I end up writing such long posts, apologies :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:28 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
I believe that the relative price of cavalry and infantry is kind of wrong, Silver Helms are a bit too cheap and Spearelves and Archers a bit too expensive.

Of course the 7th edition book tried to fix this by making Helms Special. Core infantry still weren't great but you didn't have to bring as many. You did in 8th but the big power boost to the elite infantry counterbalanced that.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:24 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
I believe that the relative price of cavalry and infantry is kind of wrong, Silver Helms are a bit too cheap and Spearelves and Archers a bit too expensive.

Of course the 7th edition book tried to fix this by making Helms Special. Core infantry still weren't great but you didn't have to bring as many. You did in 8th but the big power boost to the elite infantry counterbalanced that.


Helms to special was also a lazy fix, the 7ed list had 3 Core choices and 6 Special, and they had to give a special army organization to HE to include 1 extra Special and 1 extra Rare so that the list became workable :?
I actually felt that they didn't want to think much about how to improve the book from 6ed to 7ed, just give ASF so elite infantry is not over-reliant on getting the charge, and make SH compete with DP so people stop spamming SH and there ya go, have fun.
I feel like they tried to make the army resemble the lore better (Archers and Spears as the main core of the army) but at the same time they allowed you to bring 2 minimum sized Core units and take much more elite, which is actually the opposite of the intended purpose.
That said I didn't play 7ed and perhaps the lists people came up with were more fun than I imagined when the book came out.

I actually have a question about the 8ed book, did all HE gain FiER? Because I remember reading Seredain's blog and when the 8ed book came out, he wrote a long discussion about WL vs SM and their damage output and which unit sizes were optimal for different purposes, but ended up switching to Phoenix Guard. I don't remember the exact reasons but he seemed to think that he could not take WL or SM in small units as with ASF, so having a reliable anvil in PG served his purpose better.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:30 am 
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elendor_f wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
I believe that the relative price of cavalry and infantry is kind of wrong, Silver Helms are a bit too cheap and Spearelves and Archers a bit too expensive.

Of course the 7th edition book tried to fix this by making Helms Special. Core infantry still weren't great but you didn't have to bring as many. You did in 8th but the big power boost to the elite infantry counterbalanced that.


Helms to special was also a lazy fix, the 7ed list had 3 Core choices and 6 Special, and they had to give a special army organization to HE to include 1 extra Special and 1 extra Rare so that the list became workable :?
I actually felt that they didn't want to think much about how to improve the book from 6ed to 7ed, just give ASF so elite infantry is not over-reliant on getting the charge, and make SH compete with DP so people stop spamming SH and there ya go, have fun.
I feel like they tried to make the army resemble the lore better (Archers and Spears as the main core of the army) but at the same time they allowed you to bring 2 minimum sized Core units and take much more elite, which is actually the opposite of the intended purpose.
That said I didn't play 7ed and perhaps the lists people came up with were more fun than I imagined when the book came out.

The 6th edition book is just bad and weak, but at least it wasn't lazy. You can tell a lot of thought went into making it flavorful and fluffy (that's not to say that all or even any of that thought was thoughtful :D ). The 7th just screams lazyness for the reasons listed above. I was consistently massacring my friends already with the 6th edition book, and the 7th was just so much stronger in every way that gaming in our meta kind of died. Hence why I am trying to write a better and more balanced (also Chracian flavored) variant list so we can start gaming again, yay!

The one thing about the 7th edition book I actually liked was the new army organization chart, since the HE core tax is significantly harsher than a lot of other armies with generally useful Core units (Strength 3 attacks are largely worthless, after all)

Sorry for highjacking the thread!

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
The 6th edition book is just bad and weak, but at least it wasn't lazy. You can tell a lot of thought went into making it flavorful and fluffy (that's not to say that all or even any of that thought was thoughtful :D ). The 7th just screams lazyness for the reasons listed above. I was consistently massacring my friends already with the 6th edition book, and the 7th was just so much stronger in every way that gaming in our meta kind of died. Hence why I am trying to write a better and more balanced (also Chracian flavored) variant list so we can start gaming again, yay!

The one thing about the 7th edition book I actually liked was the new army organization chart, since the HE core tax is significantly harsher than a lot of other armies with generally useful Core units (Strength 3 attacks are largely worthless, after all)

Sorry for highjacking the thread!


I wouldn't say highjacking, we are talking about 6ed :D

I think the Core tax debate extends a bit over the whole game, where as far as I know in every edition the meta ends up being dominated by non-Core options even when rules are introduced to help Core such as Steadfast (I am saying this mostly from reading other people's experiences with 7ed and 8ed, having not played them myself).

Nevertheless I don't think HE Core was that awful in 6ed. This I guess depends on the context, in a cut-throat environment most Core was considered garbage unless you could spam it for peanuts.
In a less killer environment where people don't min-max everything, Spearelves and Archers were middle of the table, Silver Helms were very good and Seaguard was close to unplayable (15 ppm).
But I didn't like that the fluff says "Archers and Spears make the most of HE forces because they are few to have a standing army" and then the 7ed books tells you "just include 2 Core units and go for those juicy Special units".
I guess it made the army list more competitive but it has a bad taste for me personally (although I am aware that this problem happens in other armies, Dark Elves saw a lot more Corsairs then Spears, Empire had many more Swords+Shields than Halberds, etc).

Did you post your modified army around here?

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:36 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
Did you post your modified army around here?


I'm glad you asked :D

http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70303

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:05 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
That said I didn't play 7ed and perhaps the lists people came up with were more fun than I imagined when the book came out.

Giladis (and others) of this site was heavily involved with playtesting etc for the 7th edition HE book. He said that the concept was that armies would be built around powerful elite units, with the part-time militia as support. In practice, elite infantry were OK but power lists tended to coalesce around the Star Dragon with Dragon Prince bus support. You also saw magic-heavy lists with good shooting.

elendor_f wrote:
I actually have a question about the 8ed book, did all HE gain FiER? Because I remember reading Seredain's blog and when the 8ed book came out, he wrote a long discussion about WL vs SM and their damage output and which unit sizes were optimal for different purposes, but ended up switching to Phoenix Guard. I don't remember the exact reasons but he seemed to think that he could not take WL or SM in small units as with ASF, so having a reliable anvil in PG served his purpose better.

Yes, Martial Prowess Special Rule, pg 36. Swordmasters and Lions worked well in small units in early 8th edition (under the FAQ'd 7th edition army book) because the modified Speed of Asuryan rule gave them true ASF, including re-rolls to hit. The 8th High Elf book reduced them to striking at Initiative with no re-rolls. To compensate for this we gained Martial Prowess, so instead of 14 models in 7x2 say, you often had 21 in 7x3. Seredain found (and my own recent battles confirm this) that a Swordmaster block requires heavy magic support to reliably generate Shield of Saphery Ward. This leaves you with a second mage to babysit and often means you have to prioritise spell spamming over actually casting the precise ones you'd like to. So he switched to PG, who only require a single High Magic cast to push them to a 3+ Ward when they become very dangerous.

Luna Guardian wrote:
the 7th was just so much stronger in every way that gaming in our meta kind of died.

When it launched, it was the best book. But by end of edition it was decidedly mid-table. Which I guess shows how bad army book creep became in that edition.

elendor_f wrote:
I think the Core tax debate extends a bit over the whole game, where as far as I know in every edition the meta ends up being dominated by non-Core options even when rules are introduced to help Core such as Steadfast (I am saying this mostly from reading other people's experiences with 7ed and 8ed, having not played them myself).

In 8th at least, strong Core is often the hallmark of a strong book. So Dark Elves have Witch Elves and Dark Riders, Daemons have Horrors and Plaguebearers, Wood Elves have Glade Guard and Glade Riders.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:51 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
That said I didn't play 7ed and perhaps the lists people came up with were more fun than I imagined when the book came out.

Giladis (and others) of this site was heavily involved with playtesting etc for the 7th edition HE book. He said that the concept was that armies would be built around powerful elite units, with the part-time militia as support. In practice, elite infantry were OK but power lists tended to coalesce around the Star Dragon with Dragon Prince bus support. You also saw magic-heavy lists with good shooting.

I think when the 7th ed book came out that the elite infantry was actually pretty viable. The book was strong enough and the units were good enough to be a good choice. Yes, the Star Dragon was a superior choice, but that was mainly because it was way over the top when the book came out. And it remained a decent choice until the end of 7th ed, which is a testament to its power. And monster lists tend to be better with other fast units. And so DP's were preferred to play tag-team with the dragon.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:37 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Yes, Martial Prowess Special Rule, pg 36. Swordmasters and Lions worked well in small units in early 8th edition (under the FAQ'd 7th edition army book) because the modified Speed of Asuryan rule gave them true ASF, including re-rolls to hit. The 8th High Elf book reduced them to striking at Initiative with no re-rolls. To compensate for this we gained Martial Prowess, so instead of 14 models in 7x2 say, you often had 21 in 7x3. Seredain found (and my own recent battles confirm this) that a Swordmaster block requires heavy magic support to reliably generate Shield of Saphery Ward. This leaves you with a second mage to babysit and often means you have to prioritise spell spamming over actually casting the precise ones you'd like to. So he switched to PG, who only require a single High Magic cast to push them to a 3+ Ward when they become very dangerous.


Prince of Spires wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:
Giladis (and others) of this site was heavily involved with playtesting etc for the 7th edition HE book. He said that the concept was that armies would be built around powerful elite units, with the part-time militia as support. In practice, elite infantry were OK but power lists tended to coalesce around the Star Dragon with Dragon Prince bus support. You also saw magic-heavy lists with good shooting.

I think when the 7th ed book came out that the elite infantry was actually pretty viable. The book was strong enough and the units were good enough to be a good choice. Yes, the Star Dragon was a superior choice, but that was mainly because it was way over the top when the book came out. And it remained a decent choice until the end of 7th ed, which is a testament to its power. And monster lists tend to be better with other fast units. And so DP's were preferred to play tag-team with the dragon.


I see (I don't have the 8ed HE book or the rulebook so I mostly know what I gather from reading around ^^).
Thanks for the answers!

Having a 3+ Ward in an elite infantry block sounds like one of the best resilient infantries in the game, was that the case?

elendor_f wrote:
There are two more 6ed tournaments planned in Autumn, one at 1500 points (small battles to compensate for the epicness of the special characters) and another one with unknown details yet planned for October.
I am not sure if I can attend either as travelling to Barcelona requires some extra effort for me, but if I do I will definitely post it here :D

Some news on this side, the 1500 points tournament is scheduled on 16th September so I unfortunately can't attend (I have a concert that Saturday which I booked tickets almost one year ago! :shock: ).
For the one in October, details are unknown yet, but I will try my best to attend! I will keep this updated.

Since the October tournament will probably be at 2000 points, and I have to paint a lot before I get to White Lions and a second block of Spears (so no infantry based list), I have decided to update the list I used in the last one.
I felt like my MSU-ish experiment was too challenging for my movement decision making :lol: , so I decided to run a more MMU approach instead of MSU.
I took some inspiration from Seredain's Silver Helm bus list (and SpellArcher reloaded cavalry prince :wink: ).

The list is:
Archmage, level 4, Seer, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury, Jewel of Dusk
Noble, heavy armour, ithilmar barded steed, great weapon, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix, Pure of Heart
19 Spearelves, full command
10 Archers
9 Silver Helms, champion, std bearer, War Banner
5 Silver Helms
15 Swordmasters, full command, Lion Standard
5 Dragon Princes
5 Ellyrian Reavers
2 RBTs
2 Eagles

Since I have only one Lord option I decided to take the Archmage again, the cost is the same as two Level 2 Mages but I don't need to pay for Seer twice to choose all 4 spells, or pay for Channeller to be able to cast a spell with 4 or 5 dice.

The 9 SH + Noble make the main hammer. I wanted a total of 10 in the unit so losing 1 means I still get +1 rank bonus (full ranks are 4 models), and with US 20 I can compete for the outnumber bonus with many infantry blocks.
I don't have a BSB in the unit like Seredain and the role of the Prince is taken by the Noble, which contributes with 3A S6 and being pretty tanky (2+ re-roll AS and 5+ Ward) to contain fighty characters or monsters. He also makes the SH inmune to Panic which is a nice addition.
If needed he can charge out of the unit to contain cowboys (he will autobreak if he loses combat to Fear-causing things when alone, so handle with care).
Since 6ed is less about grinding than 8ed, I felt like I didn't need a Prince (and there is no Giant Blade in 6ed which was the main point of the Prince, fighting the stuff no other elf could).

The Spearelves act as a static CR farm and a bunker for the Archmage (I included a Champion to prevent mage-hunting characters like Heroes on Pegasus from killing the Archmage).

The Swordmasters are up to 15 from 10, and are Inmune to Fear and Terror. Their role is to be able to take prolonged combats (S5 attacks on Initiative are the best the HE book has for that) but a 20-man block is too expensive, so I settled for 15, and since that is not that much I decided to protect them from auto-breaks due to losing combat to outnumbering fear-causing enemies (one can argue that they are not supposed to lose combat, but I see it more as they will fight hard enemies, and since infantry is slow they can't choose their combats every time).
They are weak to big cavalry charges since they only start with +3 static CR (2 ranks and standard, assuming they didn't take casualties) or being heavily targeted by shooting, but both can be played around, and in the worst case they are not the main threat of the list.

Finally the 5 Dragon Princes are as naked as possible, 130p, no command options, no magical banner.
Their role is to be in the flank and threaten enemy fast units with their 18 inches charge range, making life easier either for the Helm bus or for the infantry blocks, and since they have L9 they are quite independent from the general's Leadership.
If I had the points I would like to include a standard bearer with the Banner of Ellyrion, treating all terrain as open is pretty big for them, but I didn't want to give up command options in the infantry or the Lion Standard.

I guess I could consider to remove a couple of toys (Lion Standard and Guardian Phoenix) to get the Banner of Sorcery and go from 7PD to 8-10 PD, but I think the list doesn't need more magic at the cost of some tactical options (like the inmunity to Fear in the SM, the Ward save is perhaps less crucial).

I am not sure if I can find some practice games (everybody is playing 9th Age in my surroundings :) ), but in any case I need to focus on painting :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:28 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
Thanks for the answers!

You're welcome elendor.

elendor_f wrote:
Having a 3+ Ward in an elite infantry block sounds like one of the best resilient infantries in the game, was that the case?

Yes. The enemy just can't rely on putting wounds on them and anything without T6 or a 1+ save is going to take wounds itself.

elendor_f wrote:
For the one in October, details are unknown yet, but I will try my best to attend! I will keep this updated.

=D>

The list looks decent. I do wonder about taking a mounted BSB to support the Noble. I faced a lot of 8-strong cavalry units with a pair of characters in 6th. The second character helps with killing things and the BSB re-roll makes sense re the points already in the unit. The Swordmasters do look like a useful support unit.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:41 am 
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I'm not a big fan of archers, especially niin 6th they were horrendously overpriced, so I'd drop them. You have a lot of fast units already, so the Spears and SM will be left behind. I'd drop the larger Helms unit to 5, drop the command from them, and beef up the DP unit and get a second mounted Noble as BSB. If you have any points left, put them towards more Swordmasters and use them in a 6 by X formation. Either that or a Lvl 2 magenta.

Oh, and some White Lions. Can't win games without White Lions (I never have :wink: )

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:26 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
The list looks decent. I do wonder about taking a mounted BSB to support the Noble. I faced a lot of 8-strong cavalry units with a pair of characters in 6th. The second character helps with killing things and the BSB re-roll makes sense re the points already in the unit. The Swordmasters do look like a useful support unit.

I thought of having a BSB but since the re-rolling happens only when you lose combat, I would think he is better in an infantry unit which is more likely to receive a charge and lose combat. So to me he functions more of a "make this unit an anvil" type of thing.
However in the Spears he would force the Archmage to go somewhere else and I am not sure if SMs or Archers fit the bunker role.

In theory the Helm bus does not need to take Break tests (well things can go wrong, but I believe I shouldn't take combats where I think the Helm bus will lose) so a normal mounted Hero would work for the killing business.
I think that perhaps Sword of Sea Gold (ignores armour) to give the unit more power vs highly Armored targets or the Reaver Bow but I think I can only shoot it twice or so before being in combat.
Another option is to give him a Lance and the Radiant Gem for extra magic power (8PD/5DD instead of 7/4).

Luna Guardian wrote:
I'm not a big fan of archers, especially niin 6th they were horrendously overpriced, so I'd drop them. You have a lot of fast units already, so the Spears and SM will be left behind. I'd drop the larger Helms unit to 5, drop the command from them, and beef up the DP unit and get a second mounted Noble as BSB. If you have any points left, put them towards more Swordmasters and use them in a 6 by X formation. Either that or a Lvl 2 magenta.

Oh, and some White Lions. Can't win games without White Lions (I never have :wink: )

I agree the Archers are overpriced but they are very good at killing chaff so the RBTs can focus on juicier targets. Most of the time I would get Curse of Arrow Attraction (unless I choose Life Lore like last time :D ) which makes them decent. I can also use them as emergency Archmage bunker (not very good but well, shit happens :roll: ).

For the DP would you run them s 5+Noble and another helms unit as 5+Noble? Or would you make a DP bus with 8 DPs + 2 Nobles?
I think for a bus configuration Helms are more efficient since the back rank doesn't really care about statlines, they are there for bodies and the rank bonus, and the armor save is the same anyway.

Also magenta means Death lore right? I am curious why would you choose it over Heavens/Fire for a level 2? Heavens has the re-rolls and the bolts who can target any unit (lone characters, skaven support groups and so on) and Fire has cheap damage spells (well actually Death has the D6 S4 and 2D6 S4 projectiles exactly the same as Fire).
I think I would use Shadow lore for Unseen Lurker and Pelt of Midnight, since the Archmage can already take the damage dealing spells to allow the supportive ones to go through.

I like White Lions! I made a list based on Lion Guard Prince with some WL but I plan to finish painting some cavalry first so perhaps next time ^^

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:34 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
For the DP would you run them s 5+Noble and another helms unit as 5+Noble? Or would you make a DP bus with 8 DPs + 2 Nobles?
I think for a bus configuration Helms are more efficient since the back rank doesn't really care about statlines, they are there for bodies and the rank bonus, and the armor save is the same anyway.

I would run them as a bus, depending if your opponent has ways of dealing with them at range. DPs have a longer charge than Helms, though they of course pay for it, so they are a better way of delivering the Nobles. Alternatively, I'd drop the DPs entirely and use the spare points for Tiranoc Chariots, characters, and more Silver Helms. Nobody wants to be around Caledorians anyways :wink: .

elendor_f wrote:
I like White Lions! I made a list based on Lion Guard Prince with some WL but I plan to finish painting some cavalry first so perhaps next time ^^

Good, you're a man of impeccable character and great wisdom! I really miss my 6th edition prince: Armor of the Gods, Radiant Gem of Hoeth (Lore of the Beasts: Bear's Anger), Channeler, Talisman of Protection, Great Weapon/Halberd. Field him with a noble with Lion Guard (my BSB) and in a unit of White Lions. Those were the days.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:33 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
I thought of having a BSB but since the re-rolling happens only when you lose combat, I would think he is better in an infantry unit which is more likely to receive a charge and lose combat. So to me he functions more of a "make this unit an anvil" type of thing.

I agree that in general the BSB is even more important to infantry. But the cavalry bus is already half-way to being fast, mounted infantry. Your actual infantry can often still benefit from a cavalry BSB's re-roll of course.

elendor_f wrote:
In theory the Helm bus does not need to take Break tests (well things can go wrong, but I believe I shouldn't take combats where I think the Helm bus will lose)

I feel Warhammer isn't always predictable. The unit can get caught out of position after a victorious combat. It can get stuck on Undead, or Stubborn or Unbreakable troops. With the BSB you can also take on tough combats, confident that if you lose by one or two it will hold, so you can grind the enemy down or bring in support next turn. Essentially, you increase your options of what you can do with the unit and by extension, with the army.

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:09 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
I thought of having a BSB but since the re-rolling happens only when you lose combat, I would think he is better in an infantry unit which is more likely to receive a charge and lose combat. So to me he functions more of a "make this unit an anvil" type of thing.

I agree that in general the BSB is even more important to infantry. But the cavalry bus is already half-way to being fast, mounted infantry. Your actual infantry can often still benefit from a cavalry BSB's re-roll of course.

elendor_f wrote:
In theory the Helm bus does not need to take Break tests (well things can go wrong, but I believe I shouldn't take combats where I think the Helm bus will lose)

I feel Warhammer isn't always predictable. The unit can get caught out of position after a victorious combat. It can get stuck on Undead, or Stubborn or Unbreakable troops. With the BSB you can also take on tough combats, confident that if you lose by one or two it will hold, so you can grind the enemy down or bring in support next turn. Essentially, you increase your options of what you can do with the unit and by extension, with the army.

You actually gave me an idea I have never thought before, that the Lion Guard honour, unlike Swordmaster, is not restricted to characters on foot. So the BSB could actually make the whole Helm unit Stubborn on L9 re-rollable, and I could exchange the War Banner for Lion Standard to make them Inmune to Fear and Terror to avoid autobreaks. The other Noble would function as protection for the BSB from challenges from fighty characters besides dealing damage.
This would make them extremely reliable (besides being fast and resilient) in tough combats as you are mentioning.
I have the feeling that the design of the Honour wasn't intended for mounted characters in terms of background (Chrace isn't famous for its riders) but it was never corrected or changed in FAQs (Swordmaster had to be corrected to characters on foot only in a Warhammer Annual).
I think it is a bit cheesy but it could be fun to try :)

Regardless of the Stubborn thing, my dilemma with the BSB is that with 2250 or 2500 points I wouldn't hesitate, but at 2000p I need to remove a unit to get the BSB.
I can remove either the 5 Helms, the 10 Archers or the 5 DP, and I am not sure if it is worth to lose a whole unit.
The Archers look perhaps the less crucial since I have RBTs and magic.
I also have a personal pet peeve with units that cover 25% or more of the total points, and Noble+BSB+8Helms is about 500 points give or take, which is in the limit.
This is not really an argument for anything but I somehow don't like over-investing in a single unit :oops:
On the other hand the unit has good damage, good mobility, good resilience and good anvil characteristics for "only" 500 points.

I would really like play some games to test the difference between having the BSB or not, it is actually a very interesting choice.
I also remembered now that in 6ed BSB can't have non-magical weapons (or shields, so max AS is 3+), but Sword of Might is only 15p so that solves the problem.

Luna Guardian wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
For the DP would you run them s 5+Noble and another helms unit as 5+Noble? Or would you make a DP bus with 8 DPs + 2 Nobles?
I think for a bus configuration Helms are more efficient since the back rank doesn't really care about statlines, they are there for bodies and the rank bonus, and the armor save is the same anyway.

I would run them as a bus, depending if your opponent has ways of dealing with them at range. DPs have a longer charge than Helms, though they of course pay for it, so they are a better way of delivering the Nobles. Alternatively, I'd drop the DPs entirely and use the spare points for Tiranoc Chariots, characters, and more Silver Helms. Nobody wants to be around Caledorians anyways :wink: .

elendor_f wrote:
I like White Lions! I made a list based on Lion Guard Prince with some WL but I plan to finish painting some cavalry first so perhaps next time ^^

Good, you're a man of impeccable character and great wisdom! I really miss my 6th edition prince: Armor of the Gods, Radiant Gem of Hoeth (Lore of the Beasts: Bear's Anger), Channeler, Talisman of Protection, Great Weapon/Halberd. Field him with a noble with Lion Guard (my BSB) and in a unit of White Lions. Those were the days.


Well my Noble is supposed to be a Caledorian so in this particular case at least she wants to be close to other Caledorians. Not sure about the rest of the army :lol:
Armour of the Gods really was a godsend for HE, because on-foot builds are really bad without that item :(

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 Post subject: Re: [6th Edition]
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 11501
Location: Otherworld
elendor_f wrote:
So the BSB could actually make the whole Helm unit Stubborn on L9 re-rollable,

Interesting! How good of an armour save would he achieve with this? In general I think killing power is probably more important than being Stubborn but if Lion Guard protects the BSB too it's win-win.

elendor_f wrote:
exchange the War Banner for Lion Standard to make them Inmune to Fear and Terror to avoid autobreaks.

I worry slightly that you're building to not lose here rather than to win elendor. That said it's a reasonable swap, is Standard of Balance an option or is it beyond the points allowed?

elendor_f wrote:
I also have a personal pet peeve with units that cover 25% or more of the total points, and Noble+BSB+8Helms is about 500 points give or take, which is in the limit.

It's a matter of taste of course, pure MSU cav has it's points. But you are also not committed to deploying either character in the bus if the battle suggests otherwise.

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