vs skaven gunline

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Ferny
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

vs skaven gunline

#1 Post by Ferny »

Hey folks - cross posting from T9A for advice as the Ulthuan community is pretty savvy about these things. I fought my low model count precision strike list vs a skaven shooty list the other night and didn't really have a clue what approach to take. I think his list was hard, and a bad match up for mine, but I'm not wanting to take away from player skill etc. I think some of the things in his list are getting nerfed in the next update (for fairness I should note that so are my loremaster and seaguard). They're probably similar to skaven in 8th if you're not familiar with 9th, but irrespective of this the basic point at issue here I guess is how to fight a gunline.

His list was something along the lines of:

2x 5 jezzails
2x ratling guns
2x 3 ogres with guns
2x 10 skirmishing dudes
doomwheel
cannon
A-bomb
DeamonRat
40 stormvermin
20 clanrats
Lv2, BSB and a hero with bound spells...

My list: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php? ... ster-list/
Characters:
CavPrince, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Sword, Daemonhunter, Lucky Charm, Cenyrn
Prince, Loremaster, Great Weapon, Mithril, Duskstone, Dispel Scroll
BSB, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Griffon (all upgrades), 4++ (I could have saved points on HA here)

Core:
13 x Silver Helms, barding, full command, banner of speed
17x LSG with HA, Ambush, FC

Special:
7xDPs, Dev Charge, Ch, St, becalming
2x eagles
2x RBT

Rare:
10x Skirmishing Sisters
Frostie

We were playing standard scenario no objectives. There were 6 pieces of terrain (2x hills, 1 x building, 1x field, 1x pond, 1x wood). I chose the side with a hill, field and building, figuring I could do a little bit of hiding (but not much cos of 'tall' models like monsters and cav). However, what almost kept me in the game was the field: I put one brave unit of sisters (bunkering the loremaster) alone in the middle of the table in the field, and the low skaven BS, magic, -1 for skirmish and -1 for field and Ld10 for panic kept them in it for several turns. I dropped everything first for first turn. I pushed hard on his weak flank which was shooter heavy and evaded hard on my other flank which had his Abomb and DeamonRat, whilst my RBTs, sisters and loremaster did what they could from teh centre. My advance on the flank was bloody like the Somme but I did get into combat and deal with most of his shooters...but the attrition was too much and I didn't have enough combat troops/wounds left to make it through.

(I also made a big mistake with an eagleblock where he fled in terror - I should have kept 18" BSB in range (I'm kicking myself about this because it was so avoidable!) - ultimately this lost me the game if it wasn't already lost...but he made a big mistake in deployment giving me a weak flank to attack, which ultimately may have given me a way into the game, so swings and roundabouts).

The problems I had were:
1. jezzail range is so long I can't really corner out of the way
2. My priorities for shooting and magic *need* to be his shooters, specifically jezzails and ratling guns. The ogres also need to go, but they're harder to shoot off so I needed to engage in combat, but that meant slugging my way up the field
3. I could confidently destroy either of his skaven blocks, but certainly the larger one would hold me up for a turn, giving his DeamonRat a chance to charge my flank/rear
4. Storm banner - slows me down for a turn when you really can't afford it vs a list like this. Also forces a turn of just magic and no shooting damage to his shooters.
5. the DaemonRat - what can I do against this? He's really quite vulnerable to mass shooting (6's to wound, no armour, just 5++ ward). Also (boosted) light spell from loremaster. But the target priority has to be his crippling shooting. In combat the only thing which I think can tank and wound him reliably is the cav prince, but with the high WS and I S6 MW3 weapon you're gambling on his 1+-->4+/3++ saving him long enough to strike back (for a couple of rounds?). And with shadow magic he has a huge threat range.

So, proud Asur. How can we tackle this type of list? Both strategically (e.g. with this army) or through list building, ideally all-comers, but even how would you build against it?
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SpellArcher
Green Istari
Posts: 13841
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Location: Otherworld

Re: vs skaven gunline

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

This is giving me horror flashbacks to sixth edition!

:o

Short of time but I'll get back to you Ferny.
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: vs skaven gunline

#3 Post by Ferny »

Turns out i think we were playing the rules a bit wrong, or at any rate i got confused (new army, new edition etc). Jezzails are range 36 not 42 and storm banner is blurry (-1 to hit) not blurry and -2 to hit.

Combined my task was harder than it might, tho the general principle stands...
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SpellArcher
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Posts: 13841
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Location: Otherworld

Re: vs skaven gunline

#4 Post by SpellArcher »

OK so I have now read the 9th Age Skaven list, time-consuming but educational!

:)

Are you convinced you need to drop your whole army early Ferny? Might it be worth deploying more slowly to get position for your units? It worked well because your opponent mis-deployed but they won't always of course.The Eagle Terror thing sounds very educational. It's the kind of experience that makes us sharper players.

Presumably your cavalry were the spearhead here with their great movement but I guess your opponent would have targeted these first? Storm Banner only lasts one turn now but it's still powerful. -1 to hit is significant but shouldn't be disastrous. Obviously the Griffon can still March 12" but I guess it's the 4" hobble of the Frostheart that hurts?

I feel the key to the Vermin Lord is Daemonic Instability. This is very dodgy on single models. If you Challenge with the Prince I think he's got about a 1-in-6 of killing you immediately, even with Multiple Wounds (D3). If he doesn't, Shard of Cenyrn, combined with static res should vape him. You can help this along by shooting a wound or two off first. I feel Regen is a no-brainer upgrade for him but even this shouldn't stop you. Why did they give Shadow to Skaven?

How did the Ambushers work here? Might it have been worth deploying them normally to get their shooting from turn one?
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: vs skaven gunline

#5 Post by Ferny »

Yeah - me too :wink: .

RE: whole drop - I thought yes, cos it means one less turn of being shot at...that said, his range wasn't as bad as I had thought - jezzails 'just' 36 and I had in my head 48 like RBTs, so that's a blessing. So maybe not so critical. Banner we also misplayed - not as bad as I had thought.

RE: terror - absolutely. I was kicking myself like hell but I'm kinda glad I've made it now cos I'll know better next time!

I hadn't realised the Damon had instability - that's interesting! Especially if he gets involved in a big multi-combat, cos I'm sure as hell gonna be killing loads of rats...maybe that's a really strong 'hidden' weakness, like zombies proving a liability for vamp busses in multi-combats. Does it work like that?

Agree that Prince might be a way to tank him - feels risky with MW3 though...how did you come to 1-in-6? I thought it was more likely than that.

Ambushers are solid - they came on T2, failed to do much shooting damage but then took out jezzail unit next turn. This is what they're for - but only the one unit sadly.

I was aggressive on one flank with helms, cavlord, griff...but I think I should have waited a turn and killed his ratling guns first with shooting/magic, then miasma one jezzails and take my chance then. Might ask for a re-match sometime...! :D
The 9th Age: Alumni

Former Roles: Advisory Board, HR, Moderator and Highborn Elves Army Support
SpellArcher
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Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Location: Otherworld

Re: vs skaven gunline

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

Ferny wrote:Agree that Prince might be a way to tank him - feels risky with MW3 though...how did you come to 1-in-6? I thought it was more likely than that.
Vermin Lord has higher WS, so hits on 3's with 5 attacks. Average 3.33 hits. Average 2.77 wounds. My arithmetic's a little imprecise here but I reckon Lucky Charm means Prince saves 3/4 of first wound and half of remaining 1.77. Something like 1.14 gets past armour save. 3+ Ward reduces this to around 0.38, roughly the chance of getting a wound through? Even if he does, he has to roll a 3 on the D3 to kill the Prince. It gets slightly more hairy if he has Lightning Reflexes but still good odds I think and Regen looks the better upgrade to me.

Prince hits 3.56 times after re-rolls. 3.16 after wounds. 2.37 after Regen. Then you have Banner, Charging, probably a Rank. Say the VL put one wound on Prince. Say HBE win by four, reducing VL's Ld to 5. For each pip the DI test dice are above five, he takes an additional wound. Obviously BSB helps him a lot if in range and you shooting two wounds off first could be huge.

All of this is of course a little academic now that the 0.99 nerf bat has knocked this dude into next week!

:)
Ferny
9th Age Moderator
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Re: vs skaven gunline

#7 Post by Ferny »

This one had LR and no regen, which slightly changes the equation, but yeah - an option. I might ask for a rematch at some point now I know the rules a little better........except reboot and now I don't know the rules a better! Will get round to reading other ABs soonish, RL is busy this week!
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