Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

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PadForce
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Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#1 Post by PadForce »

So.... anyone else going to this?
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#3 Post by Prince of Spires »

Good showing for the HE, with 10 lists. A quick scan of them shows a great variety of lists.

Popular choices seem reavers, swordmaster and RBT, but there is a bit of everything. Some chariot lists, one highly mobile flying list (3 characters on eagles, one on a phoenix, two phoenixes and an assortment of ambushing and skirmishing troops). A few MSU lists, a couple of MMU and a few with bigger blocks.

It should be interesting to see how it all performs. And if certain builds will turn out to be less optimal and disappear in future tournaments.

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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#4 Post by PadForce »

Good spot, thanks for linking.

Someone has taken a 5 strong unit of AP, lightnnig reflexes eagles!
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

PadForce wrote:Good spot, thanks for linking.

Someone has taken a 5 strong unit of AP, lightnnig reflexes eagles!
You're welcome sir. This list I believe?

Master of Canreig Tower (Prince): Fleshrender; Mithril Mail; Dusk Stone; Sceptre of Power 350
Queen's Companion (Commander): Great Bow of Elu; Red Ring of Ruin; Battle Standard Bearer 165
Mage: Dispel Scroll 105

15 Sea Guard: Gleaming Icon; Ambush; Champion; Musician; Standard Bearer 230
5 Elein Reavers 80
5 Elein Reavers 80
5 Highborn Lancers: Mounts Protection (5+); Standard Bearer 125
10 Citizen Archers: Standard Bearer 100

15 Lion Guard: Banner of Speed; Champion; Standard Bearer 240
6 Sword Masters 78
5 Sword Masters 65
5 Sword Masters 65

1 Giant Eagle 50
1 Giant Eagle 50
5 Giant Eagle: Armour Piercing (1); Lightning Reflexes 265
9 Queen's Guard: Skirmish 144
14 Queen's Guard: Longbow; Standard Bearer 206

2,398 points

What's interesting is that this gent is Australia ETC and obviously a strong player but didn't do that well at Sheffield or Milton Keynes. Though both seemed fairly strong events. Was he using this list I wonder?
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#6 Post by PadForce »

Yeah seems odd.. if nothing else it looks very easy to get points out of. Guess we will see how it performs however!
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#7 Post by Cold Phoenix »

From what I know of Jamie Payne, he traditionally plays Cav armies. For example, Brets for the 2015 Australian masters and Cav bus HE for the 2015 ETC. I've got no idea why the change to MSU. Maybe he had a bet on with Swordmaster :D?
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#8 Post by SpellArcher »

Cold Phoenix wrote:From what I know of Jamie Payne, he traditionally plays Cav armies. For example, Brets for the 2015 Australian masters and Cav bus HE for the 2015 ETC. I've got no idea why the change to MSU. Maybe he had a bet on with Swordmaster ?
I've been wondering how good the Helm Bus is now. Obviously World Dragon is a hit but not a terminal one I suspect. Maybe Mr Payne simply rates MSU higher now?
PadForce wrote:if nothing else it looks very easy to get points out of
I guess we could say that that's a characteristic of MSU lists. Some points at least.

There are some similarities with Swordmaster's lists I think. It's got 14 drops which is respectable but not awesome for MSU (something to do with the Ambushing LSG I think). Like SM's lists it has decent light shooting, no RBT here though so it might struggle to pin down armour. The magic is good but not cheap and no Banner of Becalming. Almost all the combat strength is in elite infantry, no Knights of Ryma or Phoenixes.

The Lord build is interesting, I hadn't even considered Fleshrender on this guy while Sceptre of Power gives a nice little boost. Pure shooting BSB looks useful. I'm suspicious of the scroll caddy but I'm wondering what his Lore is, which sig would be most useful. Of course he helps Channeling and is a back-up if the big guy dies.

The units seem a little bitty. I'm assuming that Ambushing LSG are good. The rest of the Core looks competent. The small Swordmaster units are probably quite dangerous. Why 15 Lions I wonder, why that banner and why not Skirmish? I'm guessing that's the usual bunker for the Lord but it looks a little lightweight, careful handling needed.

The Queen's Guard and Eagles look self-explanatory except for that big unit. I guess 5 Flying Monstrous Beasts is a pretty mobile strike force, albeit without the punch to solo anything solid. The whole list looks like a 'death by 1000 cuts' kind of affair. I'm just concerned it doesn't quite have the focus that SM's rosters have.

Watch as it wins the tournament!

:)

An interesting comment from our own Irishranger:
Irishranger on TWF wrote:Top ten will be warriors(weight of numbers 12/80 means at least one of them gets a good run), SA, O&G and 1 or 2 token representatives from other armies. Some very strong lists in there.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#9 Post by Cold Phoenix »

I've been wondering how good the Helm Bus is now. Obviously World Dragon is a hit but not a terminal one I suspect. Maybe Mr Payne simply rates MSU higher now?
I played with Helm Bus + Elite Inf + support for most of my 8th ed Tournament games. Losing the banner was bad, but LR instead of ASF, no Martial Prowess and the fact that people can always target the unit are all big nerfs as well. The only thing which really stands out about the bus now is that it's still M9, while most of the nastier flyers like Dragons are now Fly 7 or 8. We can now take a 25 point magic banner of one HE core unit, but I'm not sure how useful that is.
Last edited by Cold Phoenix on Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

PadForce
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#11 Post by PadForce »

So, first matchups are up, and I am against:

Saurian warlord (general) alpha carnosaur, gem of
fortune, spear of the stampede - 440
Saurian vetran, Battle standard bearer, totem of
Mixoatl, shield - 155
Skink priest, level 2, path of heavens, taurosaur -
250
Skink priest, level 2, path of wilderness, dispell scroll
- 125
24 Saurian warriors, crocodile warriors, full
command, banner of speed - 357
10 Skink hunters, skirmish, blowpipe - 80
5 Chameleon - 60
5 Chameleon - 60
Thyroscutus, alter of the snake God - 110
Salamander, spout venom - 70
Salamander, spout venom - 70
Taurosaur, great bow, sharp horns - 200
Taurosaur, engine of the ancients, ancient taurosaur
- 255

It doesn't look awful, although it is a horrible monster mash up list. Main plan currently is to try to searing doom the carnosoaur general as much as possible, whilst trying to grab a charge against any of the monsters with my DPs or phoenix hero. SMs will line up against the saurus whilst the rest of my list attempts to take care of chaff.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#12 Post by Cold Phoenix »

PadForce wrote:So, first matchups are up, and I am against:

Saurian warlord (general) alpha carnosaur, gem of
fortune, spear of the stampede - 440
Saurian vetran, Battle standard bearer, totem of
Mixoatl, shield - 155
Skink priest, level 2, path of heavens, taurosaur -
250
Skink priest, level 2, path of wilderness, dispell scroll
- 125
24 Saurian warriors, crocodile warriors, full
command, banner of speed - 357
10 Skink hunters, skirmish, blowpipe - 80
5 Chameleon - 60
5 Chameleon - 60
Thyroscutus, alter of the snake God - 110
Salamander, spout venom - 70
Salamander, spout venom - 70
Taurosaur, great bow, sharp horns - 200
Taurosaur, engine of the ancients, ancient taurosaur
- 255

It doesn't look awful, although it is a horrible monster mash up list. Main plan currently is to try to searing doom the carnosoaur general as much as possible, whilst trying to grab a charge against any of the monsters with my DPs or phoenix hero. SMs will line up against the saurus whilst the rest of my list attempts to take care of chaff.
Um, I've added that list up 3 times and It only comes to 2232 points with 437 points of core. It looks like your opponent is missing 165 points of Core?

Also, I'd kill the salamanders as quickly as possible. Each one has a 3" stone thrower resolved at S1 with +1 to wound and AP(6). They can cripple most elven units if they get a direct hit and roll reasonably well to wound. The Spear of the Stampede is also worth noting. As far as I remember it acts as a 40 point lance which gives the bearer d6 impact hits at their mount's S (S7 on an Alpha Carnosaur)...
Last edited by Cold Phoenix on Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#13 Post by PadForce »

Haha you are right... 160 points i assune will be 2 more units of 10 skink hunters. God this is going to be more horrible then!
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#14 Post by Cold Phoenix »

PadForce wrote:Haha you are right... 160 points i assune will be 2 more units of 10 skink hunters. God this is going to be more horrible then!
Probably not. I looked his list up in the link to the lists further up in the thread. The total points given for his roster are 2397. He's at 2232 (so 165 points unaccounted for) points with 437 points of core, so he needs another 163 points of core to hit 600. If we assume the rest of the roster is correct he's probably spent the missing 165 points in core. It might be Skink Hunters, but if they take the Skirmisher upgrade they'll be 8 points each and the numbers won't add up and just can't see a SA player taking Skink hunters without skirmish. As it is now, I'd guess the missing unit is a small unit of Sarus, a unit of Skink Braves or some Snake Swarms.

Edit:

If he'd wanted to add more Skink Hunters his core would look like this:

Core:

24 Saurian warriors, crocodile warriors, full
command, banner of speed - 357
10 Skink hunters, skirmish, blowpipe - 80
10 Skink hunters, skirmish, blowpipe - 80
11 Skink hunters, skirmish, blowpipe - 88

605 points total; bumps the list up to 2400 points exactly.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#15 Post by sparkytrypod »

best of luck padforce, keep us updated as much as possible! devastated i couldnt attend!
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#16 Post by PadForce »

Cheers, not going to be too woried if i dont win a load.. i accept the list i am running is totally out of the meta. Just going to enjoy it.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Kick some butt for us!

:)
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#18 Post by PadForce »

Right.. Very quick update as I got home about an hour ago and am completely shattered.

I finished 14th out of 66 and won best in race so pretty stoked about that as its my first ever. Jamie Payne (only mentioning as some of you seem to know who he is) came 2nd HBE 5 places behind in19th (only by 4 battle points, but he also scored 3000 less VPs than me over the 5 games). The tourney was won by Lizards.

I didn't have any massively swingy games, and only made one big mistake which I wasn't punished for, and a couple of smaller ones which I was. I'll do fuller reports tomoz, but list of results with opponents names included in case you want to look up their lists:

G1 vs John Parish, Lizards 13 - 7 win
G2 vs Nick Davis, WoC 18 - 2 win
G3 vs Marshall Trower, Skaven, 9 - 11 draw (lucky not to lose by more)
G4 vs Adam Freeman, Lizards, 20 - 0 win
G5 vs Alex Wheatley, Orcs, 2 - 18 loss (a bit unlucky to lose by this much but balanced out with G3)

Anyway was great fun, and tbh I think 9th Age just feels like a good rule set atm which isn't promoting boring lists or too much cookie cutter stuff, so good on them.

Cheers,

PadForce
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#19 Post by SpellArcher »

Nicely done sir!

Looking forward to hearing more.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#20 Post by Galharen »

well played, looking forward to seeing the full battle report :)

Lizards are winning a lot of tourneys nowadays, are they really so strong? What is played there? Multi T-Rex monster masch?
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#21 Post by Prince of Spires »

Congrats on the good finish. Looking forward to reading more on your battles. How did you feel the list performed?

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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#22 Post by SpellArcher »

Results here:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 3&t=132995

High(born) Elves seem to have averaged just below half-way. Saurian Ancients did well but Skaven topped the chart. Ogres and Tomb Kings also did well but only two of each so could have been simply player skill.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#23 Post by Ferny »

What went wrong vs Alex? He used to be a clubmate before I moved to Wales :).
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#24 Post by PadForce »

Spider spam went wrong. I'm gonna have to post stuff tomorrow having worked way longer than hoped today.

In the meantime I did a quick self review of my army with friends so I'll post below:

Best bits:

1. Phoenix Guard hero on flame bird: probably the hero of my list.. with a 4++ and coming back to life (as he did in game 3 where I only lost 9 - 11) can make a massive difference in games. S7 with lightning reflexes is just great and means I wasn't afraid to try charges, even if he might fail and then take one himself. Would like to try the Lord version.

2. SeaGuard: crucial in terms of not surrendering points with 25 wounds and 4+ AS. Grabbed at least 1000 points of objectives across the games, whilst only surrendering the 370 they are worth in one game (the last one where I got obliterated).

3. Dragon princes: turned out to be fantastic as a zoning / anti monster unit. With M9 and swiftstride threatening 11 S6 WS5 LR I6 attacks they cant be ignored, and can protect a huge part of the battlefield.

As expected:

4. Loremaster: variety of spells was really helpful, and having switched to the 4++ regen he was much more survivable. Did some good killing too, although still expensive at 400 points.

5. Swordmasters: Basically gave me my 20-0 and 18-2 when people went straight up against them, but their T3ness contributed heavily to giving away points in the other match ups. I think when they get their (seemingly inevitable point raise) they will go back to being just too expensive to use given how relatively easy they are to kill or avoid.

6. Eagle, Bolt throwers as expected

Worst performers:

7. Silver helms have taken a big hit with spears.. they are basically just a throw away unit now. Id take a unit of 5 DPs any day, but silver helms are core.

8. Frostie: still a game changer vs other elves, but gets focussed by everyone and their mum. Only really helped in the final game. Might be dropped.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#25 Post by Ferny »

How do you think the new changes will affect your list?

Without QtF would you take spears over seaguard (I read a rumour that it was being replaced by something unique, but I can't find out anything else about it and the site is down)?

Loremaster got more expensive and sword sworn got less good and he lost access to lion fur...would you still take him. I probably still would, cos spells, but he's eating more and more into the rest of the army for (marginally) less gain.

Swordmasters - I like the idea of a glass cannon and therefore they are inherently swingy. I don't think I'd take them as a block without the banner, otherwise just MSU.

Helms - I'm experimenting with 10 FC M10...liking them at the minute. They got more rubber lance-y than 8th as chaff clearers though, but still, core heavy cav which are fast and certainly no worse than what other armies could hope to get...think they're still worth it in core.

Frostie I think is maybe must have just for those elven match ups...
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#26 Post by SpellArcher »

PadForce wrote:7. Silver helms have taken a big hit with spears.. they are basically just a throw away unit now. Id take a unit of 5 DPs any day, but silver helms are core.
Ferny wrote:Helms - I'm experimenting with 10 FC M10...liking them at the minute. They got more rubber lance-y than 8th as chaff clearers though, but still, core heavy cav which are fast and certainly no worse than what other armies could hope to get...think they're still worth it in core.
I'm not understanding this at all, can you help me out guys? What does the unit of ten with no characters do well in 8th? What is the difference in 9th Age?
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#27 Post by PadForce »

Hey chaps. Still havnt had time to sit down and write my report. Doesn't help that this cookie problem on the site is forcing me to constantly re-set my phone if I want to log in remotely.

Ferny - I don't think the changes would affect me that much, they dont sound massive. SMs got a bit worse.. but there are a lot of things that take shields so against them you arnt really any worse off at all. SeaGuard have a new rule we don't know yet, so I wont worry about that too much at the moment. The loremaster, if he just gets more expensive then I might downgrade to the 2+ rerollable and scroll build. You save on the lion cloak and HA so even with a nerf to his base cost it may not change the overall picture that much.

On Silver Helms.. their threat radius is quite good, but even 10 LR S5 attacks on the charge run out really fast. Not many units other than chaff (and sometimes even not chaff) will go down in one round to that. It feels like their only use is zoning. If I want real concentrated threat then its DPs for me.
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#28 Post by Ferny »

Two big changes for me i think, banner option and objectives. That means for me mv 10 and a unit that is very mobile, good vs small arms, hits hard enough vs chaff or flanks, etc. Support unit. 10 should be enough to compete or claim objectives too.

I'm also moving away from the core tax concept a bit. Certainly pre patch, sea guard can be a meaningful unit in their own right, reavers as always excel and core heavy cav work. 10 helms are roughly equal to 5 dp for a lot of things, so I'm happy to invest in them and sea fuard
if i cant afford obligatory reavers ill tale eagles which are cheaper (but special),
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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#29 Post by Prince of Spires »

10 SH are an interesting idea. I think that because of 8th ed. cavalry busses, we're too focused on having them as a character delivery shock troop that is in the center of a battleplan.

Running them solo really changes their role. For 190 - 220 pts (+ any command models you want in there) they are still a relatively cheap unit on the scale of things. They won't win a lot of combats solo. But with M9, 2+ armour and 10 S5 attacks they can deal with a lot of lighter stuff, they can be a great force multiplier for other combats and do well enough in assassination missions. Taking out a lord lvl mage in exchange for 220 core points is often not a bad deal if you get the opportunity.

They are no knights of Ryma and should not be treated as such. But they are decent enough medium cavalry and coming from core I think they can do well.

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Re: Cardiff Gt 20 - 21 Feb

#30 Post by SpellArcher »

PadForce wrote:Doesn't help that this cookie problem on the site is forcing me to constantly re-set my phone if I want to log in remotely
How come all is not hunky dory after you deleted the old cookie the first time PadForce? Looking forward to the report.

I can see the value of ten Lancers with standard for objective grabbing. Also, I guess they make sense if Avoidance units like Skirmishing Queen's Guard have been commonplace. Things like the Waywatcher ignore-armour shot aren't around to ruin their day. I'm still a bit suspicious though. Anything they can't reliably break on the charge (probably most units) is likely to grind them down.
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