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 Post subject: First drafted 9th list
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:52 pm 
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Hey chaps, below is the first list i have drafted under 9th edition which i am partially happy with, but would appreciate any comment.

General game plan is for the prince on phoenix to generally flap around drawing fire and flamewaking people. Forcing rerolls of 6s to wound and with a 4++ he should be relatively tanky.. but if he dies then he has a fair chance of coming back to life. If he doesnt die hell be able to charge / rear charge to help combats when the blocks eventually get forwards. Ill be trying to get miasma off to get an additional flamewalk in the magic phase.

The Flame Warden unit should be pretty hard with holy attacks and mr buff from the bsb. The loremaster will provide passable magic defense with the crystal, whilst the bsb is the toughest we have ever been able to field.

Lords:
Prince, Warden of the Flame, Halberd, Flame Phoenix, Great Bow of Elu, Gem of Fortune - 415
Prince, Master of Canreig Tower, Amethyst Crystal, Heavy Armour, Daemonhunter Helm, Razor Blade, Shield, Lion Fur - 345

Heroes:
Commander, BSB, Heavy Armour, Lion Fur, Warden of the Flame, Hardened Shield, Sword of Strength, Dusk Stone - 199

Core:
Seaguard x26, Heavy Armour, Musician, Standard, Icon of Prosaic Days - 383
Silver Helms x12 - 221

Rare:
Frostheart Phoenix - 200
Coastguard Reaper x2, Repeating Bolt - 150

Special:
Phoenix Guard x24, Full Command, Razor Banner - 435
Eagle - 50

Further potential thoughts are whether i drop the dispel banner and the eagle for a third bolt thrower (just realised this would put me below min core so thats out of the question!).. but at this point im leaning towards keeping the eagle to prevent the odd flank charge.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:00 pm 
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Looks pretty sensible PadForce.

It would be nice to somehow get some S6 attacks in. Could also be handy to get another mage in to aid casting but difficult to fit in I can see. What are the advantages of 12 Helms compared to two sixes?

I'd be very interested to hear how the PG do.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:11 pm 
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I'm very interested to see how the flame phoenix prince fares. It will be interesting to see how much fire he draws, or whether people will prioritise other targets.

I'd probably split the helms into 2 6's as well. Slightly concerned at your lack of redirectors beyond the eagle. Remember bolt throwers are special now. That's most magic heavy build I've yet to see on the loremaster, though as your sole caster perhaps it's best choice.

I think at the moment pg's success is basically dependent on the presence or absence or holy attacks. If there aren't any I'd expect them to be excellent as usual.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:27 am 
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It's not a list I'd be comfortable running. You have some good elements, but the lack of S6+, reliance on Keepers of the Flame as the main combat block, unsupported Loremaster and low number of re-directors make me nervous. I think you'll do fine against balanced lists, but will really struggle against lists which pack lots of high T or good armour. Gunlines and/or nasty magical threats (such as S6 banishment) will force you to push forward.

I'd really be looking to get some S6, fit in a supporting wizard or mage prince honour and add some more redirectors. I'm also not sold on the phoenix guard. I've had a couple of games with them in 9th. They did reasonably well in one against skaven without any holy attacks. In the other game I was playing Brets with Light magic and they knew they were utterly screwed as soon as I saw the lists. They couldn't catch anything and got runover by a lance with had gained holy attacks from the lore of light attribute. Given how easy it is to get holy attacks in 9th (Mark of change, Lore of Light attribute, Lore of death 4th spells, the Holy Icon (30 point magic banner), Divine Icone (OTS) and all the race specific ones such as the Grail Vow) I'm just not comfortable relying on Keepers anymore because so much of their value is tied up in their ward save.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:43 am 
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It's an interesting list, that's for sure. I think the best way to find out how it does is to try it a few times. Some thoughts on it:

- The flame phoenix I'm really interested in. For me (in 8th) it has been a bit hit and miss. In games where my opponent has bigger, ranked up units with little or no armour (think skaven, undead), it performs great. Wake of fire is a decent threat against these lists. And it's low S (for a monster at least) attacks and thunderstomp hit hard enough. In other games against more armoured opponents and smaller units it is a bit meh. Wake of fire doesn't do enough to warrant such an expensive model and in combat it just lacks the punch you want from a monster. Of course, the guy on top makes a difference. So it'll be an interesting experiment.

- The second prince I'm not sure of. First of, I doubt he can carry the Amethyst Crystal, since it's an arcane item. But also, HE characters on foot don't really perform all that great. You get 4 very expensive attacks. To compare, those 345 points can also get you 25 swordmasters or lion guard. So 21 or 14 attacks. I know which I would chose. He should either be mounted, dropped or turned into a mage.

- Core selection, I would drop a few helms and seaguard and add a unit of reavers (with at most a musician added). Getting a second redirector in the list will be golden. And this way, it will not come at a high cost for the list overall.

- the specials / rare look fine for me. If you dropped the prince in step 2, then you should have points for a second unit of something. Some lions or perhaps 7 - 9 dragon princes for some higher S attacks in the list. But overall, PG can perform admirably. Depending on what you expect to run into, you could perhaps even drop the number of them a bit to make some room for extra other stuff. Lose 4 of them for instance and jiggle some points about and you have room for 5 SM, which is a lovely annoyance unit which will draw more fire then it deserves.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Thanks for the responses. Taking each in turn:

S6:
Lack of S6 I initially thought I would just accept as a limitation of the list.. but having thought about it I am going to amend my Loremaster and BSB builds as below:

1) Prince, Loremaster, Amethyst Crystal, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Daemonhunter Helm, Lucky Charm, Lion Fur - 340

2) Commander, BSB, Heavy Armour, Lion Fur, Warden of the Flame, Shield, Giant Sword - 201

The Loremaster now strikes at S6 (without +1 to hit), but drops from a 2+ AS to a 3+ (rerollable once). The BSB goes from a 2+ AS always rerollable, to a 3+, but strikes at S7 rather than S5. Hopefully for these two the Loremasters -1 to hit and his 3++ vs magical damage, and the BSB's innate 4++, will keep them alive. I gain 5 points left over to give the lucky shield to the prince on phoenix (not necessary, but nice to have).

Support mage (think I need some more opinions on what to do here):
The easiest way of grabbing a support mage with a dispel scroll (100pts), would be to drop a bolt thrower and 2 phoenix guard.. That would let my loremaster cast at +3, and dispel at +4, but is that worth it? Difficult to say.. I would lose board control (in my experience 1 bolt thrower is relatively useless, but fire from 2 actually has a chance of doig something) and a bit of the PG unit, and I am not sure if this list actually needs a dispel scroll in it because of all the MR, and I don't really mind if they magic vs Helms or Sea Guard. What do people think?

Silver Helms:
The 12 helms is for force concentration as it would be much more difficult to get two units of 6 helms into combat at the same time, rather than only having a single unit to worry about. 5 S5 attacks are not really going to bother anyone, but 10 or 12 (depending on if I have space to put them down 6 wide) could cause a problem.

Holy attacks:
Ill admit I hadn't really considered the new prevalence of Holy attacks. I am not sure how many there will be in a tournament though.. there wont be many lists which are happy to invest all the points required to get a) Flaming b) Magical c) Holy attacks. I suppose this is just something ill have to deal with if I come to it. I suppose at the very least I can try to get off the Loremaster's 5+ regen spell to slightly counteract the effect of holy attacks.

Prince of Spires:
My second prince is the loremaster and my only mage, the new name for the loremaster is a bit confusing I grant you!

I had been toying with the 5 SM / 5 Dragon Prince approach, but I think I am happy going for a hard as nails PG unit. I know 5 SMs would draw fire, but no sooner would I have them down on the table than id be clearing them off again! I just don't have the points for DPs without significantly changing the list.

Redirectors and board control:
This is something I am happy with. I took 2 bolt throwers and a single sacrificial unit for board control (plus core shooting) to the last tournament I went to where I did well and didn't have too many problems.

Thanks again for the comments, and I welcome more on whether the sacrifices required to get a support mage will be worth it.

Cheers,

PadForce


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:41 pm 
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PadForce wrote:
The Loremaster now strikes at S6 (without +1 to hit), but drops from a 2+ AS to a 3+ (rerollable once). The BSB goes from a 2+ AS always rerollable, to a 3+, but strikes at S7 rather than S5. Hopefully for these two the Loremasters -1 to hit and his 3++ vs magical damage, and the BSB's innate 4++, will keep them alive. I gain 5 points left over to give the lucky shield to the prince on phoenix (not necessary, but nice to have).

I like the new BSB because defence is OK and attack is excellent. I feel the Loremaster is stretched too thin. Maybe something like Scroll, GW, 2+ re-rollable? With Scroll and Icon & MR you should be able to get by without the Mage I feel. It would certainly help the PG to have six high strength Initiative 7/8 attacks in the unit.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:34 am 
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Quote:
let's try to keep it civil
Er.... what? Not a single thing said here has been un-civil.

On the channels you only ever get 1 channel attempt, all additional wizards do is add +1 to the roll. Also our wizard's "Master of Balance doesnt Stack". So 1 wiz channels on 5+, 2 on 4+, 3 on 3+ etc.

Im not sure about the Griffon Prince, he will still go down pretty quickly to most cannons. Would be interesting to hear how he fares. Id rather take the Star Dragon personally.. T7 is just very, very good.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:39 am 
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Lol sorry I somehow managed to post this on the wrong thread. Was meant for the musings one. I didn't know that about the channels. Still a 4+ channel and the crystal makes for some good defence.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:56 am 
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I'm not convinced by the lord on pheonix option - compared to the hero he grants you very little extra - you don't need the extra magic points unless you go +3S and defence, MR2 not 1 is nice but not dealbreaker, attacks are now 3 apiece, as is rebirth. Extra BS is nice on the shooting, but not gamebreaker. I'd definitely be tempted to either downgrade to hero or put BSB on him instead...key reason why I might not is how you want to play it - you might want your BSB central whereas you might want your bird flying all over the shop. Hero option is not only cheaper on points but also more cost effective on the bird.

If you did go BSB on bird then there's less case for taking PG because they loose the free MR1 and holy attacks, though they retain FIER and 4++, so are decent still.

I'm another one in the camp of MSU rather than MMU helms, but I can see the case for.

I'd also +1 getting another caster into the list for assists to the loremaster, it covers his main weakness. Points could IMO be freed up from the flamebird.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:31 am 
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Hmm good point on the Phoenix rider - I think when I originally wrote the list a hero would have had only 2 attacks. The point difference between the lord and hero is only 35.. but you are probably still right that the 1 extra BS, WS and MR is not worth that. Putting amy bsb on the bird sounds risky, but it again would save me a huge number of points, maybe that is the right way to go!

Thanks Ferny, you have definitely given me a lot to think about.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:29 pm 
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You'd also lose the killing power of the BSB from the PG Padforce.

Is there any merit in running the Flame Phoenix umnounted? Or maybe going for a different mount and taking Mage Prince? Or a Dragonmage even?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:17 pm 
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Well I just really want to try the riden phoenix, its about the only thing in the list I am loathe to change. I want to see if it is annoying / survivable enough to be worth it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Well.. Thanks for the help but with the release of the v0.11 and the massive changes to every character in my list I am back to square 1!

I'm struggling to believe that the stuff they have nerfed really needed it.. I mean the naked lore master is now 43 points more.. The bow of Eli traded multiple shots 3 for ap1 (I mean wtf?!) and the pg character on Phoenix now doesn't add +1 to the ward.. as well as being more expensive.

Ah well.. bit of a shame but w/e.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:30 pm 
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PadForce wrote:
Well.. Thanks for the help but with the release of the v0.11 and the massive changes to every character in my list I am back to square 1!

I'm struggling to believe that the stuff they have nerfed really needed it.. I mean the naked lore master is now 43 points more.. The bow of Eli traded multiple shots 3 for ap1 (I mean wtf?!) and the pg character on Phoenix now doesn't add +1 to the ward.. as well as being more expensive.

Ah well.. bit of a shame but w/e.


I'm not certain on all the changes either, happy about the dragon prince one though. Back to special and cheaper is good.

Remember the queens guard honour give the bearer multiple shots 3, so if you then give him the bow, he gets multiple shots 3 with it, also he ignores penalty for multiple shots now, so really it got better, just less flexible (no eagle nobles will be running it).

Don't agree with the lore master change, he was already very expensive. Surely a character with the lion guard honour, riding a lion chariot, should be allowed to wear a lion cloak?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:53 am 
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Yeah DPs got buffed no doubt, but I never run them anyway and wanted to move away from cav + star dragon, and these changes just seem to be pushing me straight back to cav / star dragon.

Agree also with your point on the bow being buffed in combination with the honour, but that is a huge reduction in flexibility, and basically means that magic item can only be used in conjunction with the honour.. which is a bit pants. You might as well add the magic item to the honour and just leave us zero magic weapons.

My kitted out lore master is now 383 points... I mean nearly 400 points for someone who casts as effectively as a 70 point Mage seems whack.

Also the Mage dragon rider is so expensive now I can't see it ever being taken. I thought the whole point of 9th was to make unviable stuff viable? No one in their right minds is going to stick what is a 415 pt Mage (at lvl 3 with zero equipment) on a t5 monster with a 5++.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:56 am 
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Reread it, and the huge changes to magic. I actually think now the loremaster is even better than before. With lvl 4's only getting +2 to cast +1 to cast is fine on the loremaster. Now he's 4A, ld10, and gets sword sworn, he's a seriously powerful general.

Remember the companion honour can also be used as a shadow warrior character with scout. Regarding the dragon mage, well I don't think it's ever been a great option, and I doubt it ever will. Fire just isn't a lore that is really suited to us. Realistically you'd use it on a lv2 on a young dragon to keep it relatively cheap.

Overall I see this version of the book as a pretty significant buff.

White lions in horde with banner of ryma and warden bsb giving them mr1 and holy attacks is a pretty scary unit. Put in the loremaster and so many combat buffs available.

I think the design team wants Dragon Princes without upgrade to be run in buses, I can see potential in this but I'd rather take them in small units with devastating charge.

That wizard honour is interesting, makes high magic a bit more viable, want to see how it interracts with other lores. Taking it with shadow on a shooting heavy list could be a good option.

Once they sort out the magic items I actually see us as being very competitive now.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:54 am 
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Yeah you could be right overall.. tbh only just read the stuff from the designers that magic items are still being worked on - without these items which are supposed to go with the list it is like having half of a book.

Guess we will wait and see.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:17 pm 
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Ielthan wrote:
Remember the queens guard honour give the bearer multiple shots 3, so if you then give him the bow, he gets multiple shots 3 with it, also he ignores penalty for multiple shots now, so really it got better, just less flexible (no eagle nobles will be running it).

This screws my General too but I can't see them caring too much about niche uses.

PadForce wrote:
My kitted out lore master is now 383 points... I mean nearly 400 points for someone who casts as effectively as a 70 point Mage seems whack.

I'm a bit confused, does he retain all the sig spells now?

Ielthan wrote:
That wizard honour is interesting, makes high magic a bit more viable

With the effective +1 to CV's the Book of Meladys is looking more and more necessary here to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:59 pm 
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I think experimenting with builds will hold the answer to book vs crystal. I'm leaning toward crystal at the moment.

The loremaster retains all the signature spells, the hero version of the honour gets to pick 2 signature spells.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:49 am 
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Yeah i think the crystal takes it tbh. If your opponent rolls a 1 or a 2 on either of his winds of magic dice (rough maths he has a 55% chance of doing so) then you will have as many or more dispel dice as he has power dice.

With the book, on a lord level caster, i cant see that i would ever get 50pts of value when you can only reroll 1 dice a phase. You can no longer reroll for fun 1s and 2s early in your magic phase just to try to draw more dispel dice. Nor can you reliably trickle through spells as you can only rr once. Not convinced.

Edit: i guess to elaborate a bit more on the impact of the crystal; if you have 55% chance of as many or more dispel dice than your opponent has power dice then you have a decent shot at shutting down his magic for 3 out of 6 turns in a game. The three you dont shut down will be worse as he has less dice. Furthermore in this new magic set up each spell will likely need more dice, so taking a dice from his pool and adding it to yours is actually better than just straight up adding 2 to yours, because it impacts how many dice he can split between spells, as opposed to simply supplementing your defense.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:49 pm 
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If you have only one caster, Dispel Scroll is kind of the default choice. It lets you shut down any single spell you choose because IF is now scrollable. It can be taken on a Hero level caster and on a Lord caster 35pts leaves room for some fighting kit on a Loremaster or a 4+ save on an Archmage. Crystal is an alternative if your guy is a Lord. It limits you to a 5+ Ward on an Archmage, so he would probably be kept back in a bunker. On a Loremaster it's problematic because ideally you want more than 30pts for other magic items. The best I can see currently is Mithril Mail for a 2+ AS. With his inherant 6+ Ward and optional -1 to be hit it's not hopeless but remains a bit thin I feel.

The Crystal is clearly powerful. I'm surprised it made it into 9th Age but it is 70pts. Your opponent will get fewer spells through, no danger. But it's not foolproof. Say you have a 7 v 5 phase which becomes 6 v 6. He throws three dice at a spell, say he needs a 7, he probably gets it. If we throw three we have roughly a 50% chance of stopping it. But if we want to be pretty sure of stopping it we need to throw more, which means he's probably getting his second spell off. The good thing is, we can be pretty sure of stopping a 5-diced spell with our 6. But if the phase is 5 v 5 for example, that's not the case. It can also be complicated by the ability of some armies to boost their magic offense or simply wild dice rolls. The flipside of this is that you'll have some games where the enemy gets virtually nothing through.

The question then is, what do you take if you have two casters? I feel one item has to be Dispel Scroll, Crystal plus Book of Meladys improves your magic generally but you still lack the ability to stop the single spell of your choice. Scroll plus Crystal is rock-solid but does nothing to boost offense. The Book is attractive because it helps both casting and dispelling. Say you need to roll a 10 to cast and get a 9. Book is great because it probably lets you avoid wasting those dice. Turning a fail into a cast forces the enemy to consider dispelling. Otherwise he probably stops the rest of your phase quite easily. It also helps a lot with a Lore like High Magic with spells like Cataclysm for example. A 14 to cast means an Archmage needs a 12 to get it off. 4-dicing it is risky unless you have the Book, in which case it's a safer bet.

It comes down to style I think. Crystal has more raw power (the enemy will get fewer spells off), Scroll and Book are precision tools. They let you put your finger on a tipping point and change the outcome.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:18 pm 
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Quote:
Scroll and Book are precision tools. They let you put your finger on a tipping point and change the outcome


I agree with you, so actually my conclusion is it is a situational choice between the two based on your list. The kind of list I was drafting above for example I dont mind if the occasional big spell goes off because I have a lot of wards and my BSB on phoenix has a fair chance of resurrecting at some point.

A helm bus + star dragon however, im likely taking a scroll because those big wardless targets are just too valuable / vulnerable to a big magic spell to leave that possibility open.

I have actually just re-drafted my infantry list above under 0.11, and drafted my first cav bus/star dragon list. Hopefully I get round to posting them tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:27 am 
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PadForce wrote:
I agree with you, so actually my conclusion is it is a situational choice between the two based on your list. The kind of list I was drafting above for example I dont mind if the occasional big spell goes off because I have a lot of wards and my BSB on phoenix has a fair chance of resurrecting at some point.

Yeah, it's kind of like how Daemons have got by OK without a scroll.

One thing about the Loremaster, the sheer number of spells is a power in itself, it multiplies the threat. I guess the Hero-level option replaces Mage Prince. It's more expensive but it looks pretty good. The first drafts of the HE book had a lot of things from the 7th edition book but now I feel they're trying to go their own way and create something new.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:43 am 
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Happy new year all! Hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Year festivities :)

Finally managed my first game of 9th vs Sylvan Elves resulting in a massacre for the High Elves. Some very swingy luck going both ways but I will try to write up a short report later.

List below:

Lords:
Prince, Loremaster, Amethyst Crystal, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon, Daemonhunter Helm, Lucky Charm, Lion Fur - 383

Heroes:
Commander, BSB, Warden of the Flame, Flame Phoenix, Giant Sword - 430

Core:
Seaguard x26, Heavy Armour, Musician, Standard, Banner of Becalming - 383
Silver Helms x12 - 221

Rare:
Frostheart Phoenix - 200

Special:
Phoenix Guard x23, Full Command, Razor Banner - 420
Eagle - 50
Coastguard Reaper x2, Repeating Bolt - 150
Dragon Princes x5, Devastating charge - 160

Cheers,

PadForce


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:10 pm 
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PadForce wrote:
Happy new year all! Hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Year festivities

Ditto!

Re Daemonhunter I guess forest spirits bring Magical attacks and elf characters are likely to have magic swords. Any issues with Wild Huntsmen for example? This is such a juicy item, I just worry it leaves this guy too short versus non-magical. Other than that (plus the Helms I'm not too sure about) I like the list, two characters is very economical.

What was the SE list?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:14 pm 
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Right so the Sylvan Elf list going from memory was something like:

Lord on Eagle, +2S sword, Armour of destiny

Heroes:
BSB on foot hail of doom arrow
2x lvl 2 mages
Wardancer hero

Core: 4 units of 10 archers with arrow upgrade, unit of fast cav

9 wardancers
2 units of 7 wild riders (huntsmen?)
2 units of 5 waywatchers
Eagle

So onto the match report
There were six pieces of terrain with the main feature being a tower in the middle and a couple of woods. The secondary objective rolled was to have a scoring unit in the opponents deployment zone at the end. The deployment was diagonal, and I won the roll to decide so I split the table to deny the biggest wood to my opponent, and also so that my seaguard could get into the tower turn 1. He won the roll for deployment and deployed his entire army to guarantee turn 1.

Deployment left to right:

Him: 10 archers (in wood) 10 archers (in wood with lvl 2 mage) 10 archers (in building with BSB, wardancers behind), light cav, 10 archers (in wood with lvl 2 mage) and then his right flank from my point of view was the 2 units of 7 wild riders, his lord on eagle, eagle and the 2 units of scouts at the far right hand side.

Me: Frost phoenix, Silver helms, Phoenix Guard (with Loremaster), Seaguard (behind the tower in the middle of the field, eagle behind to zone the scouts out of my deployment zone), BSB on flame phoenix, 2 bolt throwers in my backfield and on my far right the Dragon Princes to zone out his scouts, and also providing a decent charge threat for when his sizeable force on that side advanced.

Turn 1
He advances his entire flank on the right towards my bolt throwers. He positions his eagle in front to offer the charge and re-directs, but his lord is behind also in a decent charge range. His wardancers advance towards the tower. His shooting kills a bolt thrower and 3 dragon princes on that flank, and on the other flank manages to slaughter 9 silver helms with good shooting, and horrendous saves from me.

In turn I charge my BSB on flamephoenix straight into his lord after he flees with his eagle, and also charge the last 2 knights into him. He holds expecting to win. The seaguard in the middle advance into the building, and on the left the remaining helms and frost phoenix charge forwards to guarantee the T2 charge into his archers in the wood. The PG move 10 forwards next to the tower. Magic he dispels a Miasma on his lord, but I get off an Iceshard so he is -1 to hit and -1 LD. In combat he challenges the BSB on phoenix, and does 2 wounds. I do 2 wounds back as he is forced to reroll successful wards against a warden of the flame. He breaks on an 8 as he is out of BSB range and is -1 LD from the blizzard. I fail to run him down, but my Phoenix overruns into a unit of wild riders, and the knights into a unit of waywatchers.

Turn 2
He countercharges my phoenix with his light cav, charges the wardancers into the seaguard in the tower (a mistake I realised to move the SG into the tower), circles the other wild riders round the back towards my remaining bolt thrower. Shooting takes some wounds off the frost phoenix on the left. In combat my BSB destroys the wild riders and they break, as do the light cav. The dragon knights also destroy the waywatchers they are in combat with. Overuns for both take them into combat again with the Lord on Eagle, who had rallied behind these units. Seaguard get diced by wardancers but not wiped out with parry (not sure if you can parry inside a building?). We didn't realise units in buildings are no longer stubborn, so I held, and he bounced back (we also later realised this has changed in 9th).

Phoenix on the left charges the first archer unit, they flee off the board in terror. He re-directs into archer unit 2 with a mage in. Ditto last 3 silver helms. PG advance again to face wardancers if they are still infront of the tower. Magic - I wanted to secure the kill on his lord in the combat, so I needed to cast a boosted Wildform from the loremaster. With a casting value of 14 and only getting +1 casting bonus I decided to chuck 5 dice at it... I promptly miscast and my Loremaster gets sucked into the warp. In combat my bsb finishes off his lord. I pivot the Lord back towards the centre of the fight, and the DPs back toward my bolt thrower in case his wild riders fail their charge. Phoenix obliterates the archers and Mage in the left flank.

Turn 3
War dancers keep blending my sea guard.. He fails his wild rider charge on my bolt throwers. His way watchers kill one of the 2 remaining dragon princes.

The last remaining DP rear charges the unit of wild riders which failed their charge on the bolt thrower. He wins the combat with the charge, they flee and are run down.

Turn 4 onwards
At this point the game is more or less over so I spend the last few turns with my PG killing his war dancers and my phoenixs mopping up the rest of his army.. The Frostie bites the dust, but I have the PG, a bolt thrower, the BSB Flame Phoenix (on 1 wound giving up partial points) and the single DP also giving up 50% points. The bonus 480 VPs from having a unit in his deployment zone gave me a win of about 1600 or 1700 points which is massacre-ish.

Conclusion - except for the above being waaaaay longer than I expected!
I enjoyed the 9th rules, in a lot of situations they make a lot of sense. Magic.. I really felt like every time I went to cast a spell I had to chuck loads of dice to get the casting value. Maybe I need to adjust my thinking that I am always gonna get spells off.. But if that is the case then a 383 point lore master seems a bit overkill.. I think I'm gonna go back to the drawing board on his build to see if I can come up with something I am happy with in combat if magic isn't gonna be such a focus..

On the rest of my list..
The BSB absolutely kicked ass, and with s4 base and devastating charge DPs are worth every bit of their 32 points. The seaguard didn't really have a chance to prove their worth, but I'm also going to have a think about that if a bunch of archers would be better.. Dunno.

Anyway, finally signing out!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:11 pm
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Nice victory!

How about Prince, Canreig, Meladys, Mithril Mail, and Great Weapon for a total of 340 points?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:52 pm 
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Green Istari

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 12588
Location: Otherworld
Thanks for that Padforce. I'm just going to writeup comments as I read.

Your opponent has a pretty 8th edition list with some extra bits. Namely the Eagle Lord (looks decent but not awesome) , the Wardancer hero (these can be very dangerous) and the Wardancers, who again seem OK but not amazing. He has more shooting than you but lacking Poison he could struggle against the Phoenixes. Given enough time he could shoot the Helms off but he isn't necessarily going to get that.

I'm still not sure deploying everything in one drop is a good move in elf v elf. Yes, shooting first matters but so does not getting out-deployed. Given you got to see his entire deployment, yours looks pretty sensible Padforce. You have the infantry reasonably central to push forwards and at an angle to his offensive wing, with your Phoenixes on the flanks.

So turn one he does shoot some stuff up, including the Helms, though I think the Phoenixes are probably more dangerous to him. Risky hold with his lord outside of BSB range, he breaks and you get a couple of great Overruns, especially BSB into Wild Huntsmen.

Turn two you seemingly get a bit lucky re the tower but elsewhere it's good. He seemingly throws his light cav away and goes for the RBT, any virtue in turning back for him? Five dice cascade is a bit unlucky but not massively, I found four-dicing a bit hair-raising too. An argument for the Book of Meladys, if we can fit it in. Letting you kill his mage looks a little slipshod.

Turn three not much happens, thereafter mopping up as you say. Once the Phoenixes are into him it's bad news I think. Maybe he should have shot the Frostheart first? Again, gambling on the Eagle Lord holding really seemed to cost him.

Did you find yourself needing to cast the boosted versions of spells mostly PadForce?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:05 pm 
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Yeah to clarify on my opponent he is a 25 year WHFB vet so his list wasn't cookie cutter as he wants to try everything out.. similarly though where in the battle report I am able to kill stuff it isn't usually because of poor positioning, its because of the diagonal deployment squeezing the width of his deployment front. Combined with the terrain and the extra wood he placed there wernt that many pieces of open board for retreating into. This was his second game, I think in the first he ran a triple treeman list and stomped a friend who plays DEs.

The reason he focused on the helms turn 1 was that the frostie was too far out on the flank to be focused by all the shooting. I agree that his main mistake was deploying so aggressively outside of BSB range, but in fairness I suppose most people would expect a lord level character to beat a hero level character in combat, the Phoenix Guard BSB is just so damn hard.

Turn 2 he basically had to go for the RBVT firstly for VPs but also the objective - having that unit of Huntsmen in my deployment zone at the end of the game would have got him 480 points alone.

Yeah on the magic I had to cast the boosted versions 80% of the time due to casting range. I suppose this is just a learning point for me as I wasn't thinking about casting ranges at all (never encountered too many problems before) but it is definitely something I will keep in mind in future games.

I have started drafting a few more Loremaster builds with a dispel scroll instead of crystal.. I cant see any other more viable builds with a crystal than the one I am currently using. I also cant immediately see anything I would want to take alongside the book for 50 pts. Annyway mainly hoping the next iteration of the rules with new magic items is out before too long!


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