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So what do you think PadForce? Do you agree that your opponent deploying everything at once was a mistake or could it have caused you pain with a different set-up?
PadForce wrote:I suppose most people would expect a lord level character to beat a hero level character in combat, the Phoenix Guard BSB is just so damn hard.
I had a game recently where I took a charge with my Daemon Prince from Wild Riders. On average he should have beaten them but the dice were bad and the consequences were catastrophic. Sometimes I think it's not just about having a 66% chance of coming out on top say but what you or the other guy risk exactly if either of you break or die.
PadForce wrote:
I have started drafting a few more Loremaster builds with a dispel scroll instead of crystal.. I cant see any other more viable builds with a crystal than the one I am currently using. I also cant immediately see anything I would want to take alongside the book for 50 pts. Annyway mainly hoping the next iteration of the rules with new magic items is out before too long!
I have to say I think you have to be very careful with the Crystal Loremaster. Some fights he has to shy clear of. I like the 2+ RR Scroll option. Nicene's Book build without the re-roll is another guy who has to pick and choose his fights IMHO. I used to think Book alone wasn't enough but with the general hit to magic I'm starting to wonder. I guess re the casting values that what works and what doesn't will become clearer with play.
I think WS7, distracting, 2+, 6++ is enough defense for him. This guy's supposed to be a hybrid; I think he should be treated as such. I guess Lucky Charm might be a worthwhile addition.
He can also use magic as defense; half of his spells have some sort of defensive component to increase his survivability.
I think that deloying everything first as wood elves is probably the right thing to do.. You need that first turn of shooting everytime, and if your opponent deploys in an unexpected way the list had a lot of manuverable stuff which could move around on the battle field relatively quickly. Plus dont forget he still gets to put his scouts down after i deploy.
On the builds i still havnt come up with something id be happy running with the book. I just dont think a 2+ 6++ cuts it.
The best dispel scroll build i have come up with is scroll, dusk stone, deamonhunter helm. With lion cloak that is a 3+ rr, 6++ and 3++ vs magic. Id run that over the straight 2+ rr every time. Plus the 10 points saved against my crystal build affords me a champion on the dragon princes which is nice to have.
PadForce wrote:I think that deloying everything first as wood elves is probably the right thing to do.. You need that first turn of shooting everytime, and if your opponent deploys in an unexpected way the list had a lot of manuverable stuff which could move around on the battle field relatively quickly. Plus dont forget he still gets to put his scouts down after i deploy.
It's funny because this makes some sense but you creamed your opponent after he did this and the same thing happened in my game. It'll be interesting to play more games and see if this repeats. Having used Wood Elves a lot in 8th I agree that putting Scouts down last is great. But your opponent here for example has 40 M5 Core infantry that cannot easily redeploy and that can hurt.
PadForce wrote:On the builds i still havnt come up with something id be happy running with the book. I just dont think a 2+ 6++ cuts it.
This guy has to be protected a bit more I guess. He leaves you with slightly fewer combats you can take on.
PadForce wrote:The best dispel scroll build i have come up with is scroll, dusk stone, deamonhunter helm. With lion cloak that is a 3+ rr, 6++ and 3++ vs magic. Id run that over the straight 2+ rr every time. Plus the 10 points saved against my crystal build affords me a champion on the dragon princes which is nice to have.
Maybe this a style thing. From my PoV, 2+ RR isn't ideal but it's workable vs anything except real nightmare Lords. Daemonhunter makes the LM utterly badass vs Magical but there's more non-magical stuff that can kill him. So you could be a lot more aggressive vs Daemons say but mundane S6 for example becomes problematic.
Yeah on the loremaster build like everything in Warhammer there is a trade off.. you are never going to be good against everything.
I would rather have a slightly worse matchup against rank and file, where you are going to be protected by distracting so mostly hit on 5s anyway, and a waaaay better matchup against many lord characters.
Another thing to think about is challenging. Firstly if you are in combat with a unit that is purely rank and file then as they will be hitting on 5s at best the loremaster probably isnt going to die even if the oppoents unit has no champion or he refuses your challenge.
If the opponents unit has a combat lord in it he will accept (else you send him to the back rank) and then you have a decent matchup. A single lord wont have enough attacks getting through your distracting to kill you quickly, and if he has a magic weapon you will not die. Meanwhile he still has to survive 4 ws7 s6 attacks per round.
PadForce wrote:Another thing to think about is challenging. Firstly if you are in combat with a unit that is purely rank and file then as they will be hitting on 5s at best the loremaster probably isnt going to die even if the oppoents unit has no champion or he refuses your challenge.
He isn't going to die quickly but over the course of the game wounds will add up IMHO. A miscast could kill him for example. I guess he has a chance to heal maybe.
PadForce wrote:If the opponents unit has a combat lord in it he will accept (else you send him to the back rank) and then you have a decent matchup. A single lord wont have enough attacks getting through your distracting to kill you quickly, and if he has a magic weapon you will not die. Meanwhile he still has to survive 4 ws7 s6 attacks per round.
Raw S6 is not that fearsome to a tooled Lord I feel (S7 or Cenryn is) but you do have AP from the banner and that really makes a difference against 1+ or 2+ RR for example. I still don't fancy the odds vs non-magical but how much of that is around now I don't know. I'll be a lot happier assessing this after more games.
Spell Archer i think we are just agreeing with other in different terms!
A loremaster is never going to be better than a combat lord because the loremaster is a hybrid, i accept that.
On 1+s, i thought that another aim of the rules writing in 9th age is to get rid of the prevalence of the 1+, so in time it may not be such an issue. That being said, by the time that situation comes around the Loremaster will no doubt be completely different himself anyway!
Edit: actually hadnt even thought about the Shard of Cenyrn, it used to be 15 points in the 8th book right? At 10 points i can fit it onto my loremaster so in attack he has 4 ws7 i8 s6 ap attacks (before wildform!) and he can choose to pop the shard, ie to force rerolled regen saves. In defense he is -1 to be hit, 3+ rr, 6++ and 3++ vs magic. That is actually pretty awesome. Very happy with that.
Right people.. been a while since my last post. Hope everyone is good.
I have a final couple of playtests this weekend before submitting a list for the upcoming Cardiff 9th Age tourney. I have been tempted to try swordmasters by a friend. If nothing else its forced me to paint some! Part of my reasoning why i am happy with SMs over PG is in the past i have played very hard, tough lists with few easy targets, so PG seemed to tie in well whilst SMs wouldve become an immediate focal point. In this list it is much more fast and hard hitting so opponents will have to do much more target prioritisation.. the SMs wont be an auto target.
Draft list is as below. My main question is what banner do people run on swordmasters, is the ap banner worth it? Think im happy running this scroll build on the loremaster. I think in reality i am still mourning the loss of the old book of hoeth! A possibility to get the BoH in would be to drop the Deamonhunter helm to a dragon helm,then swap scroll for BoH. Just not convinced of having only 1 reroll a phase. Alternatively i can just keep running the DhH, lucky charm, Annulian crystal on the basis that i think people are by and large going to be avoiding combat with a swordmaster block, and therefore i might not need to worry about the combat surivability/ potency of the loremaster as much.
Would welcome any comment on possible fine tweaks.
Cheers
PadForce
Prince, Loremaster, GW, HA, Scroll, Daemonhunter Helm, Shard of Cenryn, Dusk stone, Lion Fur, 383
Commander, BSB, Warden of the Flame, Giant Sword, Flame Phoenix, 430
Seaguard x26, HA, FC, Banner of Becalming, 383
Highborn lancers x12, 221
It's a tough one. On the one hand I'd say go for the Ryma banner, effectively giving you a 5+ Ward vs spells and improving your 6++ to a 5++ vs shooting. On the other, one of the few things to trouble Swordmasters are solo characters with very high armour saves, which suggests Razor. Then again, 1+ Mon Cav are very scarce now, so that's an argument against Razor. Alternatively you could run 2x14 with no magic standard. The Loremaster could go in the Sea Guard at times.
So tomorrow I have practice games against DE and WE.
I decided to make my list slightly better vs all comers, so I dropped one lancer and a seaguard to get a banner, and the flaming standard on the lancers. I have kept the razor banner on the SMs. I was also considering the ward breaker banner, but opted not to as I have the PG BSB, and if I face a list like daemons, I can deploy the lore master in the seaguard, send the SMs into combat, then try to get off a light spell to buff their attacks.
He was running loads of crossbows, 3rbts 2 manticores and a cold one knight bus. Magic minimal. I took a charge on my swordmasters from his bus and a manticore, lost half the SMs but deleted the entire cold one unit leaving only his lord. His manticore stomped my general to death.
The following turn i got 1, 1, 2 needing about a 5 to get my frost phoenix in the side of his general. My silver helms then lost 3 guys from stand and shoot from an archer unit and fled. Meanwhile my flamephoenix riding bsb was holding up the other half of his army on the other side of the field. He died and i rolled a 1 for his reincarnate on the next turn.
I ended up running away the last few swordmasters whilst my untouched seaguard block and 9 remaining helms stormed into his deployment zone to mop up and claim the additional vps for the objective. Still a HE victory, but not the crushing one it might have been without the failed charge or flame reincarnation.
Game 2 to follow, with conclusions, list amendments and final toruney list after that.
His list was 3 treemen being an ancient, a lvl 3 life mage and a normal treeman. A few lots of 10 archers, some wardancers, waywatchers and wildriders. Bonus objective was to controll the markers.
He took the first turn and proceeded to shoot me off the table. His treemen flanked me and did their ridiculously OP shooting attack to hit my frostie with 3d6 +6 s5 hits.. it died immediately.
My swordmasters fled on an 11 from some arrows, setting me up after the rally for a charge from the wardancers and 3 treemen. I got munched and my lord was once again thunderstomped to death (as stomps dont get any special rules i didnt get my 3++ vs magic, despite the stomp coming from a magical treeman).
All in all a pretty crushing defeat. Short of taking a different list I basically dont know how to deal with treeman spam wood elves, unless the scenario is favourable. With their woods all over the place for dangerous terrain tests i was easily outmanuvered. Treeman spam with their impaling roots attack seems very very good. If i come up against a list like that in the tournament i will strongly consider not playing their game (ie they set up in a corner and wait for me to charge) by just aetting up in the other corner and sitting there. Would be a bit of a shame for the game but thats the risk they take if they run those kinds of list, i dont want to give people an easy win by trying to charge down their bowline, getting dangerous terrain tested to death in woods and then surrounded and combo charged by 3 treemen and a load of always stubborn wardancers.
Edit:
There are obviously exceptions to the above - in my first game against wood elves the scenario was diagonal deployment, which gives you a much better chance to get up in their face immediately, and also reduces the width of table the WE player can use to try to get away from you / outmanuver you.
Game one seemed a bit unlucky, though you did win PadForce. Looking at the HE book again I believe only one Core unit can take a magic standard. The Swordmasters seemed to make a mess of the Cold Ones, were you happy with them as opposed to the PG? Fighting challenges versus Monsters with Infantry characters is an issue, presumably you had to accept here? Cealyne's build here is interesting if you want to buff up vs non-magical:
Game two does look like a tricky match-up. He has the edge in shooting and Monsters are good against Infantry. Your RBT might get a bit overloaded because you need to shoot archers but you also want to weaken the Treemen. How was your magic? Your BSB looks best suited to taking on Treemen here. It seems that, partly because of the failed Ld test, these were able to fight your units piecemeal. Again, do you think PG would have made any difference here?
Hey Spellarcher. Yeah thanks for the banner point, we actually realised it before our games so i quickly switched it out.
The Swordmasters worked well, so i have kept them in. Killing your opponents quickly is the best way to protect the lord in combat, so SMs are better at that than PG. PG are better at surviving before combat, but as i have so many targets in my army i am kind of happy with that.
On the challenge, challenging is one of the few ways to limit attacks on the lord, so i feel its usually going to be a necesity. I issued the challenge in both games. Ill come onto the loremaster build in a second.
Game 2 i dont think PG would have been any better. Magic went well, i kept 5 dicing boosted buring brightness and searing doom vs the treeman ancient.. he spent the last few game turns on 1 wound, it was a bit annoying he didnt die but oh well. Despite the annulian crystal i failed to shut down his phases, failing to stop a 5 dice cast with 7 DD!
So conclusions on the Loremaster: I changed my build to the regen one. I had to submit my tourney list on sunday and i had been keeping that build at the back of my mind as a safeish fallback option which guarantees you always have a save. Further reasoning:
1) 3++ vs magic cant be taken against miscasts
2) its an open list tournament so you have less chance of catching the opponent off guard as he wont take a challenge with a magic weapon equiped character
3) Often challenges might put you up against a monster and then your armour becomes waay less useful because of high strength
4) whilst good, the annulian crystal still doesnt guarantee key dispells
5) the annulian crystal massively reduces defensive possibilities, an annulian crystal on a dead loremaster is not that useful! As i am running my loremaster at the head of a combat unit this is an important consideration
6) bottom line is that in the three test games played tthe crystal loremaster died in all of them.. the last two he would have definitely survived at least one more round if he had had the 4++ regen.
That gives you the option to take shard of cenryn on your BSB to go with his giant sword.
If you want a counter to treemen (and other monsters) a small unit of queens guard can be fit in by cutting here and there.
I'm also a bit sceptical about a flame phoenix hero as you effectively pay 285 points for the privilege. Now he costs 70 points less than a prince on a ancient dragon and has nowhere near that tankyness and damage output. Rebirth is very unreliable and you do not want your BSB to be dead in the key battles. As the core of the army is on foot a foot BSB makes sense to me. For 229 you get a bsb with warden of the flame, heavy armour, lion cloak, hardened shield, lucky charm and giant sword (or king slayer+shard). That leaves room for a flame phoenix and more sisters.
Hey, thanks for the comments. Ive already had to submit my list for the tournament but i will address a couple of your points:
Queens guard sure will be able to chip wounds, but not that many. You will wound an ancient on 5+ and a treeman will still have a 4+ armour and 5++ ward. As this list was running life you need to kill it quickly before it is healed.. you would need many more than a small unit of QG to do that!
The flame phoenix character is to be honest a bit of fun. I use him mostly as a distraction although with a 4++, 3 s7 attacks forcing ward rerolls he is still actually very good. He solo killed a wood elf lord in a previous fight. As for comparing to a star dragon, i ran a SD in my last 8th tourney and did very well so i will do something a bit different this time around. Another problem at 2400 points is the SD takes up so much when fully equiped that it impacts your magic, ie limiting to lvl 2s.
Finally on the flame phoenix itself vs foot bsb. Riden flame phoenix is 430 points with s7 vs 230 for equipped foot bsb, so 200 point difference. As i have mentioned above i am running this for fun anyway, the +1 to reincarnate is just so good in tournaments, but as you say unreliable, which i accept. The only think tempting me to a foot bsb is giving divine attacks to swordmasters. Thats good, but im not looking for deathstar esq play at this point!
PadForce wrote:1) 3++ vs magic cant be taken against miscasts
Nor can regeneration--or maybe you knew this. Can't tell from your wording; just thought I'd point it out to be safe.
Yeah I know that, it's really just to make the comparison back to 8th - when I first read the item my immediate thought was 3++ vs miscast so, great! Obviously however that is not the case. This is just another area of the game where a 3++ vs magic is no longer useful, and another reason why it's not as good as I initially thought it would be, and wrote it into my list.
PadForce wrote: PG are better at surviving before combat, but as i have so many targets in my army i am kind of happy with that.
This was very interesting because elves are the kind of guys who will shoot Swordmasters to death if we let them. Did the Phoenixes help here by drawing fire?
PadForce wrote:limit attacks on the lord,
The Loremaster is a conundrum. On the one hand you get this great caster and a decent fighter in one model. On the other you give up the grinding machine you could build the Prince into. Here I suspect chumchu's 2+RR build might have worked OK because it holds up against S6 and is better vs anything less. But if he's seeking challenges (or against specialist stuff like Trolls), the Regen might be better. It gives you the 2++ vs Flaming but Lethal Strike could be a downside.
The Swordmasters running on an 11 shows the strengths of a foot BSB. But given the Loremaster cuts off the Dragon option, the Phoenix BSB is a pretty decent hitter. Shard on him looks great because of the 5 wounds.
Queens guard sure will be able to chip wounds, but not that many. You will wound an ancient on 5+ and a treeman will still have a 4+ armour and 5++ ward. As this list was running life you need to kill it quickly before it is healed.. you would need many more than a small unit of QG to do that!
It's flammable so you get re-rolls to wound at least.
But given the Loremaster cuts off the Dragon option, the Phoenix BSB is a pretty decent hitter.
You can get a decent ancient dragon prince(flaming lance, lucky shield, holy icon, 510) and loremaster if you skip the dusk stone or the scroll on the loremaster, but that leaves you with little points for the rest.
So finally i get to the list i submitted. As noted above the Loremaster has been changed so he always has a save.. although actually SpellArcher i didnt even think about lethal strike - if he dies to any of those attacks i will be a bit annoyed with myself!!
Final list involved getting a banner on the silver helms to make them a scoring unit for objectives. I dropped 1 seaguard and used the extra points to exchange the razor banner on the SMs for the flaming banner and 2 more SMs. The main reason for doing this is just to make it more of an all-comers list. This may not be an optimal choice, but it seems in 9th there will be more regen saves in general (in part because of divine attacks). I also dont want the block held up by ie regening ghoul block, trolls etc.
High Prince, Master of Canreig Tower, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Dispel Scroll, Dragonscale Helm, Sprout of Rebirth, Potion of Swiftness, Lion Fur, 383
Commander, Battle Standard Bearer, Warden of the Flame, Giant Sword, Flame Phoenix, 430
25 Seaguard, Heavy Armour, Musician, Standard, Banner of Becalming, 370
12 Highborn lancers, Banner, 231
So finally.. i dont auppose anyone reading this isngoing to the Cardiff GT on 20 / 21st Feb? I might actually start a new thread on here as im not sure how many ppl read this.
chumchu wrote:You can get a decent ancient dragon prince(flaming lance, lucky shield, holy icon, 510) and loremaster if you skip the dusk stone or the scroll on the loremaster, but that leaves you with little points for the rest.
Fair point chumchu. So you get the killing power of the dragon and the awesome repertoire of the loremaster. You could go pure magic, take the Arcane Item and keep the Loremaster back. Easy enough to add a BSB. You could put a scroll caddy in as well but is it worth it? Obviously the army would be character-heavy, I'm not sure how you'd build around that.
PadForce wrote:lethal strike
This is a trade-off I think. If it was still instant-death it would be hopeless but it only doing one wound is a danger you can live with.
PadForce wrote:28 Swordmasters, Full Command, Flaming Standard, 414
Interesting. I would've gone with Ryma banner but this is a hard counter to certain things. Such as Treemen of course...