9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

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Giladis
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9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#1 Post by Giladis »

In order to provide quality input for the creators of the 9th Age I open this topic.

The Rules > http://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?simple-page/

Forum discussions > http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=98
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#2 Post by ArhangelusM »

C'mon people, if WE as the Asur representatives do not offer a single idea or solution for High Elves in the 9th Age, what right do we have to grumble and whine and complain of people trying to diminish our proud race into nothingness on 9th Age forum? :evil:

Gondarion is doing a lions share of work being The Defender on the said forum, but we can do more, we can be constructive instead of uninterested and melancholic!

Let's try and identify problems High Elves as a book have.

Rules, stats, point costs, too strong and too weak stuff...let me hear you all! :D

Ok, me first...:p

Frostheart Phoenix... it is one of the best if not THE best monster in the game. It is too cheap for what it does - stronger than the moon dragon by far and 55 points cheaper.
The 9th Age has it priced at 275 pts at the moment, which may be too little, but since it's one of the two crutches our book has, I'd leave it at that until they do a complete AB rework.

RBT's - raised to 80 pts...not sure if it was needed, but it does not hurt overly so it's ok.

The dreaded banner (BotWD) - same points, reduced to 3++... It was one of the things coming our way, the banner is one of THE best items of 8th edition. It needed to go up in price or down in ability. It stays a powerful tool, just not as overwhelming as before. Our second crutch, essential against Demons.

What we need in the rewrite is not having to rely so heavily on the two crutches (Frosty + BotWD), which will require some reworking of certain units: Swordmasters (these are the heavyest offenders, IMO), Chariots (Lion and Tiranoc), Shadow warriors, Seaguard, Sisters...now, some of these will only require a small points tweak, others (SM) will need to gain some new rules...

So, my fellow Asur, what say you? :mrgreen:
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#3 Post by Elithmar »

Personally, what I want to see most is more options for our characters, either in the form of some of our 7th edition items or kingdom specific rules (not surprisingly, I'd like to see my own kingdom rules in there :P , but anything like that would be great).
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#4 Post by ArhangelusM »

One of the things that seems as a good way of doing that is returning the old honors system. :mrgreen:

A lot of books have access to similar stuff (Gifts of Chaos, big names, Brettonian vow's and such).

Swordmaster honour, saphery honour which made char a wizard, seer honour etc...
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#5 Post by pk-ng »

- First and foremost I think we need to rebalance the points for some units and make them more playable i.e internal & external balance.
- Some items like BotWD needs to either -> change rules OR increase points. Honestly speaking 2++ is just a bit too much; at most is maybe 3++.
- Once the above has been done I think we can look into more army customisation, like honour system and etc...
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#6 Post by ArhangelusM »

+1 to that.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

Perhaps it's an idea to create a list of what units need fixing and in what direction. This gives 3 categories 'overpowered', 'neutral' and 'underpowered'. If we can put different units in each of these categories then we know what needs fixing. Any extra additions should wait until after that I think.

To make a start
Overpowered
  • BotWD
  • Frostheart
Neutral
  • Core choices
Underpowered
  • Swordmasters
  • Tiranoc chariot
  • Lion chariot
  • Skycutter
  • Shadow warriors
  • Dragon mage
BotWD
I think increasing the points is not the option. From what I've read (and what I can imagine), increasing the points only increase the need to run a cavalry bus list. If it only fits on a BSB, then you're pretty much forced to run him mounted (since you don't want him naked on foot). Which means cav bus. So not a good option.

Instead I would fix the main offender, which is the miscast damage protection. Don't allow the 2++ to be used vs miscast damage, and you've tackled the biggest complaint about it. I agree that increasing the protection to 3++ is an extra option that can be considered.

Frostheart
I think a simple points increase (coupled with a decrease for the flamespire) is probably all that's needed.

Swordmasters
I think changing them from carrying a GW to carrying a 2 handed elven sword goes a long way to fixing them. Another option is allowing them to use their full number of attacks when making supporting attacks. Either or both of those will set them apart from the other two special infantry choices. I would do both and drop the parry vs shooting. It creates a great blender, glass cannon unit. You don't want to end up in combat with a unit that can put out 6 ASF ws6 s5 attacks per file. But with only t3 and a 5+ you have to be careful with how you use them.

Dragon mage
I think giving them a combined profile fixes most of the things that need fixing in the dragon mage. A small drop in points so he actually costs what a mage mounted on a sundragon would (so 320pts) and you've got a lovely unit.

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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#8 Post by ArhangelusM »

+1 to all that Prince of Spires said.

The only thing I would add to core choices is to make Lothern Seaguard a bit more attractive for the taking. Reduce points by one or add some nice synergy rule with seahelm...not sure if any of it would help or not.

BotWD at 3++ is ok IMO. It still offers a great deal of protection, just not as ironclad as before.

Frostheart is at 275 pts in 9th Age at the moment, an we should playtest it and see if that is enough of a price increase or not.

Dragon mage with combined profile would make sense both fluffwise and ruleswise IMO. And it would do a lot towards making him a viable choice, especially considering that cannons will get some king of nerf in 9th Age.

Swordmasters striking with full attacks from supporting ranks is an Idea that I was contemplating for a long time now. They would be the ultimate infantry glass cannon.
Fragile beyond measure with a punch that no one can ignore. The other thing that I was thinking about was raising their I to 6...it would help them a lot with a minimum of effort. The only question is: should it be combined with any of the other proposed changes or not?

Tiranoc chariots...making them cheaper...not sure about that...making them core is maybe the best option to go with them.

Lion chariot...drop the points and/or raise T to 5. Or increase AS...or give it the benefit of their lion cloaks for +2 AS from shooting.

Skycutter should get quick to fire and maybe a slight points decrease.

Shadow warriors...not here is a conundrum...what to do with these guys. Compared to other Elven scouts, they are by far the worst. They have no aditional options like the other scouts do, or special ability's like Waywatchers. The least for them should be price decrease.

I would add Sisters of Avelorn to this list as well. I would only add Light troops (a rule giving skirmisher mobility while remaining ranked unit) to them, or maybe just a musician to make them able to swift reform.

P.S. Nice to see some of the more prominent members of the forum beginning to stir from inactivity in this hour of great upheaval and opportunity for the mighty Asur! :mrgreen:
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#9 Post by Elithmar »

Chariots will get stronger if cannons get weaker, but I think they probably need a more fundamental change than just altering points costs for individual chariots.

Sea guard are a lot more attractive now because of spears giving Killing Blow against most models. That said, some synergy with Sea helms would definitely be welcome, as would synergy between other characters and 'their' units (Anointed and Phoenix Guard, Loremaster and Swordmasters).

Shadow warriors need some distinctive feature to set them apart from Shades and Waywatchers. I'm not sure what, but I feel like it should be some sort of feature to help them in combat, rather than at range. Just giving them a points decrease removes any sense of individuality. I'd rather they were more specialised than cheaper.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#10 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Elithmar wrote:Shadow warriors need some distinctive feature to set them apart from Shades and Waywatchers. I'm not sure what, but I feel like it should be some sort of feature to help them in combat, rather than at range. Just giving them a points decrease removes any sense of individuality. I'd rather they were more specialised than cheaper.
Drop their longbow to a normal bow and let them take two hand weapons, perhaps? Or giving them hit and run special rule?
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#11 Post by Ferny »

Underpowered:
I'd add sea guard and spears to the list - they need a boost - either points drop (which might be unbalancing externally if infantry doesn't drop across the board) or an extra rule. Furion did a points drop that looks good internally but until we see his full revisions we won't know external balance. 9th did KB vs cav. I think either could work fine and need testing, but I'm happy to see either attempt.

RE: chariots
I think the biggest thing that could be done internally is to move tiranocs to core. That gives an interesting core option and a solid distinction between the otherwise better (even with the points difference IMO) skycutter. If I could have just one change it would be that, and alone it would do wonders for seeing any sort of chariot in the game.

For the skycutter shooting to be viable it needs quick to fire (at least). I'd also reduce the points of the shooter significantly - free might be too much, but certainly close to it. Again, it would create more distinction, give more reason to take special rather than core chariot, and an interesting gameplay element between BS shooting or fast chariot.

I think the lion chariot needs everything, points drop, increase T, AS and maybe W. And even then it's probably not hard or tough or fast enough to be worth it, but at least it wouldn't die quite so fast. I think Furion increased T and AS and decreased points - what's happened to it in 9th?

RE: BOTWD - I wouldn't want to see it offering different saves for different things, it feels messy (dunno, kinda like a non-parsimonious solution). If you're going to reduce the save vs miscasts then make it 3++ across the board. It's still good, it encourages high magic but doesn't require it, should solve the winging but keeps it viable. I agree with Prince for the reasons he gives against increasing its points cost - it reduces flexibility.

RE: Shadow warriors
I literally have no idea how to make these guys compare to waywatchers or shades. Partly I think shades need to be toned down a little (waywatchers less so, they serve a very different role) rather than mess with SWs. I would drop points cost and maybe allow 2 hand weapons or 2 handed weapons, but not both, and fluff wise I'd go for two hand weapons. This would increase their chances of taking out chaff and war machines in combat but doesn't make them OP. That way they potentially have a role in the high elf army even if they would always be second best to shades in an End Times context.

RE: themed characters
I think one of the problems with the handmaiden is that her ability only helps sisters, restricting her role. If that were removed she could help archer (hordes) or even sea guard in the right list (in fact, move and shoot would help them a lot as it partially addresses their range issues). Another option would be to allow her to be BSB, but I don't think that's necessary. It would be nice if there were a way she could be optimal/viable without PoS/Reaver Bow load out because it's so cookie cutter, but I can't think of a good way to avoid that.

I'm glad the seahelm isn't unit specific because it means we did (eventually) start to see him in a few lion bunker lists. If his rule were changed to permit S&S then he could be used more effectively in archer, seaguard or sister units, which I think would be a good thing for getting him aired more often. His extra cost and limited kit options mean he's still not an autopick over a foot noble bsb.

I know Furion has added unit specific rules for loremaster and annointed. I don't like this because it reduces variation in lists IMO. Eg even if taking a loremaster unlocks an ability -as per daemon heralds- like what Prince describes for swordmasters (assume they don't have it to start with), while it may mean you get more swordmasters in the lists, they'd still only come with a loremaster.


Except where above over-rides, I agree with Prince.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#12 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

My take:

What about tweaking Martial Prowess?
Make supports attacks with up to 2 attacks (improve SM and DP and does something for characters)
Chariot with this rule may march and have rapid fire (enphasis on movement and shooting not protection, as all expects from HE)
Shoot with an additional full rank, and volley when moving (improve Archers and Seaguards, Sisters I have never seen with 4+ranks)

Tweak Naval Discipline: Combat Reform bonus...and, any model in the unit have +1 to wound with spears
(to boost Core with an expensive and fragile T3 W2 character on foot, that can be easily killed, so is not seen as OP, fluffwise, as he train LSG extensively, and explain why in the world they give a obligatory SPEAR to a foot character!!!)

..or let Seaguards to change spears with Halberd for +x point, it was so in the past, and will made LSG the most offensive of the Core choice. They are professionals after all! And remeber: in core we have Witches, Longbeards, Warriors, Forsaken, 1+ Inner Circle, Dryads, massed poisoned arrow, etc
Any race should have a competitive Infantry unit in core.
If a White Lions is 13 points in special, a LSG with halberd can be in core with halberd, I think, for 12 points.

Combined profile Dragon mage, or tweak Warrior Mage to a be 2+ Ward until the Dragon is alive (they are soul-bound, like in Dragon-Heart movie, one can imagine). No chance otherwise to see the field competitively. I'd like Reckless to also improve Fire spell cast by him to S5, but I know this is wishlisting... for a 385+ points HE character is too much. let only DE have Warlocks for 125.... :mrgreen:

Just my 2 cents!
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#13 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

Let Shadow warriors sniper. (they are S3 bows!)

Let BOED 3+ only.

I like synergy with some character like Sea Helm or Loremaster, with some other unit, seems a way to bring the Honours back.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#14 Post by Cold Phoenix »

I've been thinking about Shadow Warriors for a while. Their real problem is that they aren't cheap but lack the inherent threat of other scouting units. Gutter Runners, Chameleon Skinks, Deepwoods Scouts and Way Watchers are much better at shooting. Shades and Gutter Runners are better in melee.

Rather than modify Shadow Warriors to compete directly with these units I'd like to give them something unique. Perhaps a rule like:

Chosen Target:

Before Vanguard moves, nominate one unit or character as the target of each unit of Shadow Warriors. While shooting at or directing melee attacks at their target or any unit the target has joined, Shadow Warriors may re-roll failed to-wound rolls.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#15 Post by ArhangelusM »

One of the things that I have been thinking about is:

Makeing one unit of Swordmasters core per Loremaster present in the army...

But that would just make our Core choices redundant...:/
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#16 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

ArhangelusM wrote:One of the things that I have been thinking about is:

Makeing one unit of Swordmasters core per Loremaster present in the army...

But that would just make our Core choices redundant...:/
Right... but there are precedent, even after throgg: in the new beastmen army book from 9th, a Doombull unlock Minotaur as Core.
And Witches and Forsaken were special before, and Longbeard couldn't outnumber warriors.
And we don't see many spears also in the field of the druchi.
Really, or Spears get something different from Fight in extra rank, which is a bad rule, expecially for HE with MP, or you will see only cavalry in core.
Swordmasters could bring some fresh air. They could be stay as they are, if an expensive Lv 2 on foot with T3 make them Core. Hardly OP. Maybe one unit as core per Loremaster in the Army (sort of bodyguard rule), so one cannot spam 5-men units.

I can see DP much more stronger than now, S4, a unique Banner, and 1+ AS, and made Rare choice, one unit can be made special for any Dragon in the army. Now are too similar to Silver Helm and don't feel like one of the ultimate cavalry of the game, as they should.

Spear really I liked if they change rule with morning stars, who nobody use. S4, also for a turn only, is big for our CORE, and you don't need 50 any more, only 40.
Also the option of halberd for LSG could be fine, then. They just trade shield for a more durable S bonus: they are the professionals, after all.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#17 Post by pk-ng »

Lion-of-Chrace wrote:
ArhangelusM wrote:One of the things that I have been thinking about is:

Makeing one unit of Swordmasters core per Loremaster present in the army...

But that would just make our Core choices redundant...:/
Right... but there are precedent, even after throgg: in the new beastmen army book from 9th, a Doombull unlock Minotaur as Core.
And Witches and Forsaken were special before, and Longbeard couldn't outnumber warriors.
And we don't see many spears also in the field of the druchi.
Really, or Spears get something different from Fight in extra rank, which is a bad rule, expecially for HE with MP, or you will see only cavalry in core.
Swordmasters could bring some fresh air. They could be stay as they are, if an expensive Lv 2 on foot with T3 make them Core. Hardly OP. Maybe one unit as core per Loremaster in the Army (sort of bodyguard rule), so one cannot spam 5-men units.

I can see DP much more stronger than now, S4, a unique Banner, and 1+ AS, and made Rare choice, one unit can be made special for any Dragon in the army. Now are too similar to Silver Helm and don't feel like one of the ultimate cavalry of the game, as they should.

Spear really I liked if they change rule with morning stars, who nobody use. S4, also for a turn only, is big for our CORE, and you don't need 50 any more, only 40.
Also the option of halberd for LSG could be fine, then. They just trade shield for a more durable S bonus: they are the professionals, after all.
All wishlisting. No way that SM should be core and no way DP get all those buffs.

Spearmen the KB against Cav etc is nice but highly unlikely to happen IRL - M5 vs M8 good luck catching it. Points decrease would be viable
LSG: Toughnut - huge flexibility but cost alot. Do the same for spearmen and maybe give them the chance of choice of weapons used (similar to Blightkings) to make them more attractive like either use Spear + Shield or HW + Shield (defensive vs offensive) and keep with the flexibility theme. Have to playtest
Archers: On the fence on this but if you give them the chance of having magical banner it'll increase their viability quite a bit.
Chariots: need some sort of fix no idea how.
SM: I suggested all models attack at their attack profile and keep everything else the same. Playtest and the see result.
DP: S4 is sufficient. +1 is should only be limited to a number of armies and that does not include HE.
Frostie: Points increase is good. What is proposed for 9th looks good.
Flames: Not sure if point decrease is sufficient as Flames vs Frostie, Frostie would be still be a better choice. The biggest issue is that the Flames can get cannon off quite easily and it's an expensive support unit but doesn't give much ROI. Something I've thought about is giving them at the start of combat they do D6 S4 flaming attacks on the unit (similar to kdaii). This gives them a more tactical option especially vs regen with our ASF.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#18 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

pk-ng wrote:
Spearmen the KB against Cav etc is nice but highly unlikely to happen IRL - M5 vs M8 good luck catching it. Points decrease would be viable
LSG: Toughnut - huge flexibility but cost alot. Do the same for spearmen and maybe give them the chance of choice of weapons used (similar to Blightkings) to make them more attractive like either use Spear + Shield or HW + Shield (defensive vs offensive) and keep with the flexibility theme. Have to playtest

Flames: Not sure if point decrease is sufficient as Flames vs Frostie, Frostie would be still be a better choice. The biggest issue is that the Flames can get cannon off quite easily and it's an expensive support unit but doesn't give much ROI. Something I've thought about is giving them at the start of combat they do D6 S4 flaming attacks on the unit (similar to kdaii). This gives them a more tactical option especially vs regen with our ASF.
I'd still prefer something like an halberd option for LSG, as in the past. Having a spear and not using it seem like a patch.
Maybe that spear as anticavalry only is not soo good after all. I don't like at all conditional weapons, no other weapon are so restrictive in warhammer, even the ones that could be. Cavalry will just remains the default choice then.

Flamespyre: keep it consistent with its own special rule, and let it Wake of Fire unit it charges, like a flaming meteor.
It will enphatise a role, i think. And visually, it is splendid!
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#19 Post by ArhangelusM »

Well one "little" change in wording could help a lot:

The 9th Age guys have changed the wording of Piercing bolts of burning to make 1/D3 hits per rank OR file. If said wording was applied to Wake of fire wording, then Flamespyre would truly shine. He could nuke hordes as well, not just standard 5 files x 5(or more) ranks.

I already asked if they would be willing to change it.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#20 Post by Giladis »

I believe that completely removing the Banner of the World Dragon or at least the curret mechanism would go a long way to providing a starting point of rebuilding the High Elf army book. It is to much of crutch and a dead weight at the same time if we want to tackle this from a serious game design point of view.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#21 Post by ArhangelusM »

Removal, no...

Redesign, yes...

For it to be removed(reworked) as it is at the moment, the rest of the book needs to be brought in order.

Removing a crutch when you need one means you will fall.

Let's heal the legs first and then remove the crutches. :mrgreen:
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#22 Post by Giladis »

And how will we know which muscles in the legs need to heal before we can walk if we are using the crutch. It is better to crash and burn only to rise back like a phoenix than limp on.


So I have been thinking how the banner could be a cool and usefull item that protects from magic and gives stubborn to dragons.

My solution is to combine it with the old Amulet of Purifying Flame from 6th edition book.

So for a 25 pts cost you would make any Dragon within 12" Stubborn and any spell cast at the unit will have to apply a -3 penalty to its total casting roll.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#23 Post by ArhangelusM »

What I would like to address is the issue of First among equals.

That rule has been with HE from 6th Ed, when I started playing(and maybe longer, but of that I have no knowledge).

It was crafted in time when nobody else could take magic banners on their core units but HE on one unit.

Now, access to magic banners in core is quite common, so the HE being able to take only 1 magic banner on 1 core unit is laughable, both from rules point of view and from fluff point of view (the Asur being the race with most magic weapons/items available to them).

I propose to either remove the rule and allow our core to have complete access to magic banners, or change it to:

He core can take magic banners up to 25 pts, one unit (which picks the first among equals) has access to 50 pts magic banner.

What say you?
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#24 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

ArhangelusM wrote:What I would like to address is the issue of First among equals.

That rule has been with HE from 6th Ed, when I started playing(and maybe longer, but of that I have no knowledge).

It was crafted in time when nobody else could take magic banners on their core units but HE on one unit.

Now, access to magic banners in core is quite common, so the HE being able to take only 1 magic banner on 1 core unit is laughable, both from rules point of view and from fluff point of view (the Asur being the race with most magic weapons/items available to them).

I propose to either remove the rule and allow our core to have complete access to magic banners, or change it to:

He core can take magic banners up to 25 pts, one unit (which picks the first among equals) has access to 50 pts magic banner.

What say you?
Why not one HE core unit being allowed to take a magic banner costing up to X pts for free? Or reducing the cost by X pts? Too much?
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Giladis
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#25 Post by Giladis »

I am more in line with what Gondarion has said on TWF.

Any unit of Silver Helms and LSG (nobles and a proffesional military unit) may take a banner up to 25 pts.

One unit of Spearmen (First among equals) may take a banner up to 25 pts.

And Archers and Reavers can't.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#26 Post by cptcosmic »

Giladis wrote:Reavers can't
reavers are not commoners like archers or spears.
reavers are the knights of ellyrion.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#27 Post by Giladis »

I know but it just doesn't seem right that unit primarily used for patroling the shores of Ulthuan in a way not that disimilar to carry magical banners with them.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#28 Post by cptcosmic »

Giladis wrote:I know but it just doesn't seem right that unit primarily used for patroling the shores of Ulthuan in a way not that disimilar to carry magical banners with them.
I dont see how patrolling prevents the usage of heraldic and banners

illustration of arabian patrol unit, it has a banner http://www.chinaoilpaintinggallery.com/ ... Patrol.jpg
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#29 Post by ArhangelusM »

P.S. Gondarion's idea was 50pts banner for SH and LSG and 25pts for Spears. :mrgreen:
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#30 Post by Giladis »

That is why I said along the line :mrgreen:
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