9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

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Elithmar
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#31 Post by Elithmar »

Is it that important? :P Either remove magic banners from the cores of all other armies, or give all of our core (except maybe reavers, but then again glade riders can have magic banners) the option.

Far more important is balancing the phoenixes (I like the idea of the Flamespyre doing damage on the charge, or maybe even in every round of combat), making our chariots more useful (this probably needs some rethinking of chariots in general) and making units like Shadow Warriors more competitive (I prefer the idea of making them better than of reducing their cost).

On the subject of Shadow Warriors, I was trying to think of some characterful rule to make them better. I really think they should be the elven scouts who are good in combat, so maybe something like they can charge on the first turn, even if they scout. Perhaps that is too strong. Or maybe they could have a ward save to make them more survivable, representing them being masters of using the terrain (an additional penalty to shooting could work).
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ArhangelusM
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#32 Post by ArhangelusM »

Besides giving the Reavers option for barding, how about giving them multiple shots(2) rule for their bows?

That way they would be just below Dark Riders in terms of power and usefulness and tied with Glade Riders (we have armour, they have ambush, longbows, AP and magic arrows options).

Price corrections would be necessary ofc, as are for the Dark Riders IMO.
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AtomikBlast
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#33 Post by AtomikBlast »

I'd love for High Elves to have more diverse mounts. Maybe Zebras?
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#34 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

AtomikBlast wrote:I'd love for High Elves to have more diverse mounts. Maybe Zebras?
Only if I can have a walrus to go with my seaguard as well. :lol:

Just in case you were serious (it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes), if you you want zebras just paint/model your horses to look like zebras. I can't see that they should have stats that were significantly different anyway.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#35 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

First, I've seen in another topic (don't remind where) the score of 2015 ETC.
HE, with Banner at 2+ and Frostphoenix at 240, and ASF with rerolls, scored below 10,0.
Now banner is at 3+, Frostheart at 275, and (probably) ASF without reroll.
Can we agree we don't have to tone down the army any more to achieve a desiderable 10,0 perfect balance, which shold be the goal of everyone, but only add a little more fun and variety in listbuilding?

Now, one thing HE players love over any other: HONORS!

Seafarer
(Aislinn, Sea Helm)
Prince or noble. Heavy armour, spear and shield. May ride a Skycutter or a war eagle only.
Gain Nautical discipline and Windrider. Elven in the same unit may brace spears, and use them as halberd, choice at the start of any combat round.
If general, Skycutters are Core.

Great Phoenix
(Anointed of Asuryan, Caradryan)
Prince or Noble. Heavy weapon, halberd. May ride a Phonenix only.
Gain 4+ Ward, MR2, and Blessing of Asuryan.
If general, Flamespyres are special, and get +1 on reborn rolls.

Loremaster
(Loremaster)
Prince or noble on foot. Great weapon, heavy armour.
Prince is Level 4, Noble is Level 2, they choose 2 signature spell of the 8 basic lore for each level.
If general, one unit of Swordmasters may be taken as Core.

Great Lion
(Khoryl)
Prince or noble. Heavy armour, Lion cloak, Great Weapon. May only ride a Griffon.
Gain Stubborn, and White Lion with him are Immune to Psychology.
If general, Lion Chariots are Core.

Handmaiden
(Handmaiden, Alarielle)
Prince or Noble. Averlorn Bow, Spear, Light Armour. May only ride a War Eagle.
Gain +1 to BS and Sniper.
If general, one unit of Sister of Averlorn may be taken as Core.

Warden
(Eltharion)
prince or Noble only.
Prince may take additional 50 points of magic items, Noble 25 points.
If general, one unit of Spearmen is WS 5 and Stubborn, has Heavy armour, and may take a 50 point banner.

Horsemaster
(Most prince and noble)
Prince or Noble. Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance, Barded Elven Steed or Tiranoc Chariot.
May reroll any charging distance for his unit.
If general, Tiranoc Chariot are Core.

Dragon Master
(Imrik, Dragon Mage)
Prince, Noble, Archmage, Mage (Lore of Fire only). Must ride a Dragon.
His Dragon has Dragon Barding , for a 2+ Armour Save, 6+ Ward, and Fireborn.
If wizard, and use Lore of Fire, +2 to Cast and channel power dice on 4+.
If general, one unit of Dragon Princes may be taken as Core.

Shadow
(Alith Anar)
Prince or noble on foot only.
Heavy armour, two hand weapons, Longbow.
Gain Scout, and Vendetta: choose one target at the start of the battle, he and any Shadow Warrior unit he joins, reroll to wound and gain AP versus that target, shooting and melee.
Cannot be the General.

Whit this, I can leave all the rest exactly as it is, and will be an happy panda.
What do you think?
(before over-react, expecially non-HE player, please take note of the first 5 lines of my post AGAIN.... :wink: )

Any existing character type and model will be usable, and much more IMHO, only with more customisation possible and with a streamlining of rule ( seem the direction of the game, anyway).
May be you want an Admiral, not only a Capitan, to leader your Sea guard.
And cannot be a Dragon Mage experienced enough to became a fiery Fire Archmage?
For one, seems to me a lot of HE players love different aspect of the army, and this is in my opinion the best thing of an army, and of this army, that clearly show how many potential it has for a ton of fun and balanced games.
Many love Honours. ...but really you cannot bring them back without streamlining existing specialistic characters in it...It will be a bit redundant, and not intuitive at all.
Of course it can be done the opposite. ..creating new specialistic characters to bring back some Honours. .. but it will be surely more complex, less elegant, and you see what you bring home for a false idea of balance, when they compete with a standard noble .... Hero with 2 A and light armour.....
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#36 Post by pk-ng »

Lion-of-Chrace wrote:First, I've seen in another topic (don't remind where) the score of 2015 ETC.
HE, with Banner at 2+ and Frostphoenix at 240, and ASF with rerolls, scored below 10,0.
Now banner is at 3+, Frostheart at 275, and (probably) ASF without reroll.
Can we agree we don't have to tone down the army any more to achieve a desiderable 10,0 perfect balance, which shold be the goal of everyone, but only add a little more fun and variety in listbuilding?
You are misquoting statistical data to fit your theory. Your statement above is utterly wrong.
Ar - Avg - Stdev - #
DE - 10,73 - 14 - 31
WC - 10,51 - 17 - 20
LM - 10,44 - 16 - 17
DC - 10,27 - 15 - 31
BR - 10,21 - 19 - 8
OK - 10,21 - 17 - 7
SK - 10,19 - 14 - 25
VC - 10,12 - 21 - 30
TK - 10,09 - 22 - 17
EM - 9,71 - 20 - 24
BM - 9,69 - 27 - 9
OG - 9,68 - 22 - 11
WE - 9,63 - 16 - 26
HE - 9,55 - 17 - 25
DW - 9,22 - 15 - 21
CD - 3,67 - 3 - 2
Arm - Avg - Std - Number taken
DE - 64.4 - 14 - 31
WC - 63.1 - 17 - 20
LM - 62.6 - 16 - 17
DC - 61.6 - 15 - 31
BR - 61.3 - 19 - 8
OK - 61.3 - 17 - 7
SK - 61.1 - 14 - 25
VC - 60.7 - 21 - 30
TK - 60.5 - 22 - 17
EM - 58.3 - 20 - 24
BM - 58.1 - 27 - 9
OG - 58.1 - 22 - 11
WE - 57.8 - 16 - 26
HE - 57.3 - 17 - 25
DW - 55.3 - 15 - 21
CD - 22.0 - 3 - 2
This is the 2 statistical data you are talking about and they both representing the same way but are just presented differently. This is the closes and most balanced average between armies in the last few years for ETC.

This year's HE comp was harder than last year which accounted better result from last year but we can agree that this year comp was too hard. So we need to make a comp between this and last year's.

So in a uncomp environment to balance HE they need a nerf in certain aspect. If were not good they wouldn't need comp or a buff.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#37 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

pk-ng wrote:
So in a uncomp environment to balance HE they need a nerf in certain aspect. If were not good they wouldn't need comp or a buff.

And they are: point increased for Frostphoenix, banner at 3+, and +1 to hit instead of reroll for ASF.
pk-ng wrote: You are misquoting statistical data to fit your theory. Your statement above is utterly wrong.
In your own data, HE are never in the top range, and EVERY army is comped, more or less.
Most if not all armies perform better if uncomped, you know?
Since they adress the items always comped in HE , we can adress army diversity and fun option, expecially in the Core range, without the need to tone down the whole army.
That was my statament, and surely was not utterly wrong.
At least, a different opinion from yours, which is a very different thing.
Finally, you miss the sense my post entirely, I was brainstorming ideas for regional armies, not discussing tournament results, which I cannot care less.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#38 Post by pk-ng »

Lion-of-Chrace wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
So in a uncomp environment to balance HE they need a nerf in certain aspect. If were not good they wouldn't need comp or a buff.

And they are: point increased for Frostphoenix, banner at 3+, and +1 to hit instead of reroll for ASF.
pk-ng wrote: You are misquoting statistical data to fit your theory. Your statement above is utterly wrong.
In your own data, HE are never in the top range, and EVERY army is comped, more or less.
Most if not all armies perform better if uncomped, you know?
Since they adress the items always comped in HE , we can adress army diversity and fun option, expecially in the Core range, without the need to tone down the whole army.
That was my statament, and surely was not utterly wrong.
At least, a different opinion from yours, which is a very different thing.
Finally, you miss the sense my post entirely, I was brainstorming ideas for regional armies, not discussing tournament results, which I cannot care less.
And there lies the basis of your wrong conclusion. You took ETC as an example, yet you are ignoring and at the same time using it. In a non-competitive scene everything is usable because you want to have fun therefore you don't need comp. But in an competitive environment not everything in useable because some items/units are stronger than others (hence why people use / bring them). One of the core mechanics for 9th age is to balance the game i.e making everything useable and possible on the same par and this is the same for comp. 9th Age wants to balance the game and reducing the need for comp. If to change something and it makes it unbalance/unfair then you need to comp it then why change it? A change should be done on the basis it can bring something new and fun but also make it "balance" (which it itself a subjective ideaology).

And for your information HE weren't never on the top range. They were not in the top "range" for last year's ETC. in 2014 they were in the "top" range. IF the aim for 9th age is to balance everything you want the range to be minimised and everything as close to the average as possible and those results shows that this year it was the case.
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2015 - High Elves & Top HE

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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#39 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

Really, what is the problem?
Elves have already taken nerf on the needed items in alpha. (Frost, Banner, cost of RBT)
Level of army wide strength has taken a slight hit with the new rule for ASF.
All units should be playable, and some core choice are subpar right now, this is my opinion.
X me, they don't need further restriction. I said further. So don't misquote me.

Now, take a pause and look at the capitols letters...
..now can we speak of your ideas to add flavour and fun to the army?
That was the whole point of my post, but you seem obliviuos to that.
Too many 1 on your Animosity roll those days?
For me, this end here, have a nice day
best regards
Andrea
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#40 Post by SpellArcher »

I feel there's been some misunderstanding here.

Please try to cut each other a little slack.

SA
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Elithmar
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#41 Post by Elithmar »

They look like nice Honours rules, but how would the different characters (Handmaidens, Loremasters etc.) fit in this system? Would they be removed? I see you've quoted which characters fit which honour, so does this mean they are removed, including the special characters?

Would there be points values too, or would each honour be free and the price of these be built into the cost of a noble/prince?
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#42 Post by Lion-of-Chrace »

Special characters will have specific Honour by default.
Specialistic characters are basically prince and noble that take the specific Honour: a noble with Seafarer is the Sea Helm, you can make Aislinn as a Prince with Seafarer as well, and so on...
points I haven't given, because... I really wanted this to became a Ulthuan. Net driven suggestion for the 9th Age, and I would listen to other players idea on cost for making it balanced ( honours should be paid for: the additional cost from a noble of Hand Maiden and Sea Helm can be used as a starting point; not built in the cost, because I fell same honours should be more expensive than others).....
....But it seems is not a very popular proposal, after all, so I'll drop the ball here and I'll wait another one with more "popular support" to start brainstorming with. ..
So come on, any idea guys? :wink:
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#43 Post by cptcosmic »

my wishes
-combined profile griffon (I think this is already in the latest draft)

-reavers with barding. lore update, they are knights after all and elven barding does not impede movement. models and artworks also have barding, it makes sense to do the next move

-magic banner for the "professional" core units (seaguard, helms and reavers)

-lion chariot T5

-skycutter quick to fire

-swordmasters get regular parry additionally to their anti missile parry

-lower tempest spell cast value, change it to curse thus being able to cast into combat. remove the damage part
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#44 Post by Aerendar Valandil »

A model with the fly special rule ignores terrain (Fly). But if it flies over a forest, the forest still counts as difficult terrain (Forest). However it works, it is unclearly worded.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#45 Post by ArhangelusM »

Read the special rule Fly again, everything is explained there.

It flies over terrain without any effects, only when it flies in or out of terrain do the effects kick in.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#46 Post by Giladis »

Just so that you guys know the cooperation with the 9th Age team has been deepened. I have been given the task of compiling the feedback for High Elves/Elves of Light in preparation for the task of creating the army book and I will do my best not just to compile the feedback presented on the 9th Age forum but also here.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#47 Post by Count »

Question about characters on great eagles and pegasi. Basically same stats, only difference pegasus have move 7 and eagle move 2.But eagles all cost 40 points and pegasus 25-30 without armor upgrades.
PS Empire pegasus Fly (8), Brettonnian royal pegasus cost 50 and armor included. So it seems only difference between DE pegasus and HE/WE eagles.
Horse chariot cannot into core?
IoB Ellyrian Reavers got barding. Maybe option to upgrade?
Shadow warriors. There some options without making new special rules.
Armor piercing on hand weapons and/or bows. Less OP than other suggestions :lol:
+1 Str on charge.
Swiftstride.
Devastating charge.
Quick to fire.
Lets return Alith Anar with army wide hatred :D
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#48 Post by HugoMac »

First of all, thanks for your work, Giladis. I´m sure you will represent ULTHUAN in the best way possible =D>



My suggestions are...few, they have done a great job, by now:

- Princes should be able to mount lion and flying chariots too. They are more pricey, so why not?
- Griffon should cost the ame (about 170/175 pts) for princes and nobles. I know the stats improvement is bigger for the hero choice, but it´s not that great, and feels awkward that the lesser character pays more.
- Magic banner (even the small, 25 pts option) for the queen´s guard.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#49 Post by Iain »

Some great ideas here everyone. My 2 cents.

In relation to army wide rules, whatever we give the HE we also need to give the DE and WE. So be careful what we wish for. I agree that the fight in extra ranks should not be a USR as it does not really do much unless its spears. If they wanted to keep it, maybe change it to say that extra ranks can make full number of attacks?

I think also that there should be some synergy between character types and their corresponding units. Why was Carardryan/annointed best placed in white lions and Kohril best in phoenix guard

I am very much a fan of being able to choose to use Str or WS to determine armour save modifier as we do pay a premium for a 'soft' statistic and would give us some (but not stupid amounts) of armour penetration.

Lords
Archmage - I have always felt that HE pay a premium for a very fragile level 4 mage not really any more powerful then a cheaper human, goblin etc mage. Bring back +1 to all dispel rolls.

Prince- I love the old school honour system guys. A throw back to the good old days. One to represent each of the special choices (except phoenix guard and sword master for obvious reasons) + mage knight. Allow honours to unlock one corresponding special unit to contribute to 'core tax'

Loremaster - Upgradeable to level 4 with an appropriate cost hike for each(like furion's idea). It's ridiculous that these 'masters of magical lore' are restricted to level 2. Did they get to level 2 and then decide they were powerful enough? Buffs swordmasters with some form of magical concealment/protection (e.g. enemy must roll 4+ to target or similar)

Anointed - Bring back the ability to confer a ward save to a unit, but if so make it a worthwhile 5++. Keep ability to ride phoenix, however if killing the phoenix also kills the anointed...then i think the model should benefit from the single model rule.


Heroes

Dragon mage - single model.
Noble - I think they are pretty good as is.
mage - see archmage.
Seahelm - Keep formation change rule. Provides buff to LSG - confers quick to fire?
handmaiden - no idea how to make this worthwhile. Maybe sniper? or give her a mobile bolt thrower?


Core

Spearmen - the addition of heavy armour is nice. If they kept fight in extra rank and got the ability to use their WS to determine armour save modifier it wold help immensely but I feel they are still an anvil unit that can't anvil. A rule that allows them parry (-1 to hit) to reflect their training would fix that.

Archers - not sure how to improve these without making them something they are not. Maybe allowing them to use their BS to modify armour saves? and/or allow volley fire on the move?

Silverhelms - I think they are fine

Reavers - i like the idea of giving barding to match models. how about bringing back the old "fire and flee" charge reaction from the old days?

LSG - These guys need something other then bows + spears. They are supposed to be elite-ish marines. In order for them not to be too expensive, the change needs to be minor. Maybe something like can choose to use HW/Sh, Spears, or 2 HW?

Special

White Lions - stubborn all the time. killing blow (the new kind)

Phoenix guard - retain their new str 4 characteristic.

Swordmasters - love their new elven blades. Need parry rules against shooting and CC.

Shadow Warriors - agree they need something to bring them into line with WE/DE scouts. Ambush rules or sniper? Some kind of assasinate rule

Tiranoc chariot - give scythed wheels. Everyone else has them. Reroll dangerous terrain tests to reflect their expert driving?

Sky chariot. Quick to fire. Can March. Sea Helm can use bolt thrower.

Lion Chariot - toughness 5. lion cloaks.

Dragon princes. retain str 4.

Rare

RBT - I don't think it needed the price hike. If they are going to increase the cost then they need to be improved. Maybe unaffected by BS modifiers?

Great Eagles - see mounts

Flamespyre - single model if ridden by annointed. Can use wake of fire at beginning of CC on front rank only.

Frost - give 4 attacks back.

Sisters - cheaper or better then 8th ed book.

Can we also get a 'magic channelling cannon' of some sort?. How is it that the empire can have wizards channelling magic into a cannon and the high elves don't?

Mounts
As per 8th ed. I think the single model rule applying to the griffon is a great balancer. Griffon is probably still overpriced though. Additionally, there is little reason to take a lord on griffon compared to a hero. There should be an advantage for the massive price difference.

thats enough for now
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#50 Post by teep »

Hey guys,

could any of you fill me in to why we have these tight fitting caps on oh so many units?
Unfortunately, I'm not very knowledgeable concerning 9th age, so I can safely blame
my own ignorance for making me feel all annoyed. Well at least for now.
Is the capping of, say pguard or helms, an issue of internal or external balancing?
Will we for example face empire armies with only 2 demis per unit, so that 15 pg
are indeed a good number? Is a horde of 30 goblins to be considered 'huge' in the
future?
My point is, I want something 'better' than just a form of comp from 9th. I want options.
If I don't get that, I do see not see a point in giving up the version of 8th that we are
playing with right now*. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to what 9th says it will be,
but I just don't quite see it yet. Thanks for your help :)

*edit: by that I'm referring to Combat comp which is still in use in the southern Germany's
tourney scene and has just received a great update 'fixing' magic a coupla weeks ago
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#51 Post by Giladis »

Hello


During the design process he Rules Team (guys in charge of creating the game) gave the Army Development Teams guidelines what was the maximum acceptable points cost of a unit, based on that unit size limits were made.
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#52 Post by Ferny »

Has the 9th age website crashed with all the pre army book interest or is it just the constant refresh on my phone not working?
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#53 Post by teep »

Yup, also got problems accessing the army book section from my phone...

@ Giladis: thanks for the quick reply! Yet any other info you and others might have would be highly appreciated, as of now I no some about the "how", but way to little about "why" : )
Next week I hopefully find some time to playtest and beat up some steel tank lovin little humans with my EoL.

Thanks for all your hard work guys and girls, the beta looks very interesting and yummy!
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Re: 9th Age discussion and suggestions topic

#54 Post by Ferny »

Could we unsticky this also please?
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