The Ninth Age

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Galharen
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Re: The Ninth Age

#61 Post by Galharen »

Am I right with predictions that swordmasters and dragon princes will be definitely more often seen on the table with 9th Age comming?

S4 on DP is what I always wanted to have! With 2A they are very solid.
Swordmasters hitting almost every unit in the game o 2+ with Ini order - sounds very solid too. However still very fregile.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#62 Post by Francis »

S4 makes DPs sick, but why on earth did PG get s4 as well? It really pushes them over the top. Still not impressed by this, I doubt 9th is for me.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#63 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

S4 for PG was a typo, it was already corrected.

I am not sure DP really needed S4 either.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#64 Post by Galharen »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:
I am not sure DP really needed S4 either.
They did.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#65 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Ah, if you say so then sure, no doubt they did :lol:
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Re: The Ninth Age

#66 Post by Galharen »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Ah, if you say so then sure, no doubt they did :lol:
See, I'm glad you've got the point :mrgreen: 8)

They did or not, S4 on DPs is amazing, no doubt.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#67 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

It is indeed amazing, think about Wildform on them too, now I can hunt dragons even more efficiently :)

But I still would like to know why do you think they needed S4. :-P
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Re: The Ninth Age

#68 Post by Giladis »

I think it is to match DE Knights and WE Wild Riders.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#69 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I don't think that it is absolutely necessary to make them all "similar". The fact that, for example, COK are S4 but the knights have single attack and DP used to have 2A with S5 made them unique and defined their roles differently.

Also, that makes them even better in the heavy cavalry department.

And last but not least, I thought that 9th Age is all about balance. Making units stronger might not really mean balancing them but starting the arms race and giving the players of other armies their own wish listing reasons.

So again, was it really needed?
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Re: The Ninth Age

#70 Post by Giladis »

I don't know, playtesting will have to show. But for a unit that that is in the background been describend on par with Chaos, Grail and Blood Knights they were missing something. Was +1S the answer? Maybe. Would I have approached it differently like adding +1 and devastating charge to them show their just below characters status, maybe.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#71 Post by pk-ng »

I think the issue with DP is they were always seen to have a problem with the "Lance Syndrome" and also after they charged, S3 was deemed "useless" especially in the meta of tough and 1+ AS everywhere. Therefore it was the characters doing the heavy hitting (Cav Prince and etc) so it reduced the DP's functionality from heavy hitters to character delivery. If that was the case then why not use Silver Helms? only main difference was WS and 5 attacks and Helms were alot cheaper. With the introduction of S4 into DP they at least have some staying power after the charge and S6 is more reliable in taking on the 1+ meta and change their roles to more than character delivery. The real question is has the meta changed? which is "probably yes" but we do not know specifically to what...

There was also an increase of points (by 1ppm) for the inclusion of S4 and after using them for 1 game (1 unit of 5) I definitely like the new change as it makes them hit to much harder. Now the roles between DP and Helms are not as clear / similar as before. Now I can use Helm as medium cavalry and hit soft / medium targets or use them as redirectors whilst DP can be used a heavy hitters for medium / hard targets and if possible to redirect. 10S4 attacks hitting on 2s on 125mm frontage is definitely something to think about when charging in.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#72 Post by Galharen »

pk-ng wrote:I think the issue with DP is they were always seen to have a problem with the "Lance Syndrome" and also after they charged, S3 was deemed "useless" especially in the meta of tough and 1+ AS everywhere. Therefore it was the characters doing the heavy hitting (Cav Prince and etc) so it reduced the DP's functionality from heavy hitters to character delivery. If that was the case then why not use Silver Helms? only main difference was WS and 5 attacks and Helms were alot cheaper. With the introduction of S4 into DP they at least have some staying power after the charge and S6 is more reliable in taking on the 1+ meta and change their roles to more than character delivery. The real question is has the meta changed? which is "probably yes" but we do not know specifically to what...

There was also an increase of points (by 1ppm) for the inclusion of S4 and after using them for 1 game (1 unit of 5) I definitely like the new change as it makes them hit to much harder. Now the roles between DP and Helms are not as clear / similar as before. Now I can use Helm as medium cavalry and hit soft / medium targets or use them as redirectors whilst DP can be used a heavy hitters for medium / hard targets and if possible to redirect. 10S4 attacks hitting on 2s on 125mm frontage is definitely something to think about when charging in.

Simply +1
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Re: The Ninth Age

#73 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Maybe it is then curing the effect not the cause? If there are too many 1+ AS troops out there then that is the real problem?

I said it on 9th Age forum about another topic but if you start making units better, add special rules etc. you are just going to overload the system with too many things to remember and do what GW always did to promote new models. It's an arms race. If you give S4 to DP's then what stops you to do the same with other regiments? After all DP's are not the only ones that may have problems with As 1+.

At the same time why cavalry suppose to be good after they charged? If they are good no matter what then why would you need Swordmasters for example? Oh wait, they want to make them better too so all is good :-P

As far as I remember the long term goal is to create the balanced system that rewards tactics and superior maneuver. You are not going to achieve that with simply making units better.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#74 Post by Galharen »

Swordmaster, we all know you don't need S4 on DPs, as well as you don't need any boost for high elves, to show us your superiority in tactical knowledge.

But not everyone is playing MSU and S4 on DPs means you have a possibility to build a completely new roster, without Silver Helm Bus to bring your Rambo on place, a roster with/OR without a WL big block, which is almost necessary to deal with 1+ MC, T5+ Nurgle and so on.
It's just like a breeze of fresh air i our AB :)

In for-fun community playing only with S3 units also makes fun, but in more competitive group of players it makes difference when you face 2x4-5 demis and bus of 1+ cav full of heroes.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#75 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

C'mon mate, it is really not about me at all. #-o :(
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Re: The Ninth Age

#76 Post by Galharen »

Oh don't take it personally, what I ment is that a small change rusults as a HUGE change in High Elves meta, which I find pretty awesome.
Taking 2x6 DPs means you don't take WL horde, so a new playstyle, new lists, new possibilities.

I like this change a lot.
Even more than a missclick S4 on PGs :)
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Re: The Ninth Age

#77 Post by Iluvatar »

Galharen wrote:Swordmaster, we all know you don't need S4 on DPs, as well as you don't need any boost for high elves, to show us your superiority in tactical knowledge.

But not everyone is playing MSU and S4 on DPs means you have a possibility to build a completely new roster, without Silver Helm Bus to bring your Rambo on place, a roster with/OR without a WL big block, which is almost necessary to deal with 1+ MC, T5+ Nurgle and so on.
It's just like a breeze of fresh air i our AB :)

In for-fun community playing only with S3 units also makes fun, but in more competitive group of players it makes difference when you face 2x4-5 demis and bus of 1+ cav full of heroes.
The thing is, no monstrous cav has 1+ armor anymore. They're capped at 2+ (being mounted gives +1 armor only to normal cav).

Also remember that Mark of Pestilence is no longer -1 to hit, but -1WS. All of them are WS3, which means all our elites except WL hit on 2+. That changes a bit the chances to hit. :D
Beasts are also units of 2 to 5, Flies are 3 to 6 and have Fly(6) instead of Hover (so shorter charge range). They should be more manageable.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#78 Post by Gondarion »

This topic is all over multiple forums. I think the change to dragon princes is not the same as the GW arms race because it is based on many years of observing lists. The problem with dragon princes, as with swordmasters, is one of internal balance (one that a MSU style covers up a bit, although a true maximizer would do MSU only with Dark Elves I would think). Dragon princes don't do anything different than silver helms, while the latter can fill the core tax. When you're talking about special and rare choices they need to have their own function. It is also important to remember that if something is unbalanced, it can easily be changed by the 9th Age team. The kind of concern that we're all used to isn't really relevant anymore because we don't have to wait 7 years for GW to fix something
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Re: The Ninth Age

#79 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I disagree. Dragon Princess are far better as our own heavy cavalry and can punch far harder than Silver Helms ever could. Silver Helms are medium cavalry that powergamers reduced to delivery system for their characters.

Dragon Princes (and Swordmasters) suffered more from the fact there were more and more 1+ armor save enemies out there.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#80 Post by Shadeseraph »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I disagree. Dragon Princess are far better as our own heavy cavalry and can punch far harder than Silver Helms ever could. Silver Helms are medium cavalry that powergamers reduced to delivery system for their characters.

Dragon Princes (and Swordmasters) suffered more from the fact there were more and more 1+ armor save enemies out there.
This. I've always felt that Dragon Princes and Swordmasters are the power level things should gravitate to, rather than move upwards to the level of white lions and such. Those units had well defined abilities and roles, and clear vulnerabilities. In the case of the dragon prince, the change removes some of their greatest disadvantages (staying power and punching power against high resilience targets), and creates another great all-rounder, which I don't feel is a good idea from a design point of view. It's also counter-productive against the idea of seeing more basic infantry in game, as in the end those tend to be the ones to lose the most in this kind of arms race. S5 would be much more powerful if things stayed toned down, and far less quantity of 1+ AS in the game is already a buff to them.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#81 Post by Cold Phoenix »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I disagree. Dragon Princess are far better as our own heavy cavalry and can punch far harder than Silver Helms ever could. Silver Helms are medium cavalry that powergamers reduced to delivery system for their characters.

Dragon Princes (and Swordmasters) suffered more from the fact there were more and more 1+ armor save enemies out there.
In my experience with Dragon Princes under 8th, the main problem was more the Meta created by 1+ saves. MC and other 1+ saves were a problem. Doom Divers, Trolls, Organ Guns, Stubborn GW blocks, Wild Riders and Waywatchers were much worse.

The other problem was that Silver Helms were core. Often, instead of going for Dragon Princes, I'd be tempted to take a larger unit of Silver Helms. The Silver Helms were much less dangerous individually, but cheaper and helped fill up my core. Often I'd take 2 units of 5-6 Silver Helms instead of a small Dragon Prince unit.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#82 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Beta 0.7 has just been released.

The Knights are still S4 but cost 35 per model. As Cold Phoenix suggested, the fact there were a lot of units that could easily hunt them down at the distance, making them more expensive only to justify S4 is a step in the wrong direction. They were fine as they were. I really would like to know why certain changes are made at all.

Further changes I have noticed.

- Protectors lost their Fear - again, why?
- Only High prince can have Ancient Dragon as a mount - but I don't think people will be taking it at all. It is WS6 model that hits with I3 without Supernatural Reflexes with 3+ save only.
- Great eagles are Fly (8) - why?
- Some Monstrous Beast add to the armor save but if they are large targets then they don't - so Griffons still don't

In addition, I have noticed that the Blufer's Helm that I grew quite fond of, cannot be taken by large targets, so I cannot take it for my super overpowered griffon rider now.

I must say that I am getting a new impression on 9th Age with every new iteration of the rules, that instead of making it easier and more streamlined it is simply getting convoluted and unnecessarily complex but in a different way that 8th edition was.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#83 Post by Shadeseraph »

Frankly, I understand most of the changes. Let's see:

-Dragon Princes @ S4: the original intention, I believe, was to further differentiate them from SH (many people complained that the differences were too small). However, as they were, they might have been a bit too cheap. They may have gone way too far in the other direction, but it's something to test.

Now, I do share with you that I would have preferred to keep them as they were (a supporting, not so expensive sweeping unit), but many people did not.

-Protectors of the Flame: Lost fear because, frankly, if Demons and Undead do not have fear, it doesn't make much sense that PoF do.

-Prince w/ Ancient Dragon: I'm guess it was removed from the archmage list to give princes on dragon a reason to exist. I still believe one prince with nullifying cristal and great weapon on ancient dragon is something to watch out for. WS6 T7 AS3+ 6W is not a joke, specially if you can negate your enemy's magic equipment.

-Great Eagles @ Fly(8). Almost every flyer has had its speed reduced. Anything that shortens the gap between flyers and non-flyers is good in my book.

-Queen Guard: Got nothing there.

-Bluffer's Helm: I'm guessing this wasn't an issue with the griffon itself, but with some other large target mounts.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#84 Post by cptcosmic »

it looks like they try to balance 8th edition instead of designing a game which resulted in a series of nerfes where nerfs where uncalled.

this does not work, see what this has led to:
a human wizard on foot is better choice than an high elves archmage on foot.

see what they have done... path of valor is simply not attractive anymore due to no bonus to cast anymore, short range, higher casting values in combination with no reliable ward stacking plus higher magic item costs (and I am not talking about the book&banner nerf, this is without taking them into account). I for sure wont place my T3 wizard in charge range to play magic phase poker. human wizard can also take battlelores, costs less and has +1 toughness over +1WS, which honestly is a far better stat for a mage.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#85 Post by Galharen »

When do we eventually know what will be played on ETC next year?

I want to know how to expand my army :)
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Re: The Ninth Age

#86 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I believe end of October was mentioned.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#87 Post by SpellArcher »

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Re: The Ninth Age

#88 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Not seeing Portugal in that list shames me to no end :(
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Re: The Ninth Age

#89 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

So the vote will close in 1 hour or so. I wonder when they are going to publish the results. It will be very interesting one to see no matter what the end vote will be.
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Re: The Ninth Age

#90 Post by Aicanor »

Looks like 9th it is.
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