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 Post subject: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:55 pm 
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As discussed in another thread I'm new to T9A so this thread will follow my faltering footsteps through learning the game and list development. I'm hampered initially by the models I have so this is the first army I'm likely to put on the field:

Here's what I'm starting out with:

Characters (1314 points)

High Prince: Royal Huntsman on LC, Bluffers Helm, Talisman of Supreme Shielding, Shard of Cenryn, Great Weapon - 730 points

Commander: MoCT, BSB, Spear of the Blazing Dawn, Dragon Mantle, Heavy Armour, Shield, 4 Spells (3 Druidism, 1 Alchemy) - 584 points

Core (1160 points)

5 X Elein Reavers: Bows - 190 points
5 X Elein Reavers: Bows - 190 points
30 X Sea Guard: FC - 780 points

Peacekeepers (360 points)

2 X Reapers

Special (1282 points)

20 X Flame Wardens: FC, Rending Banner - 660 points
8 X Knights of Rymza: FC, War Banner of Rymza - 622 points

Ancient Allies (380 points)

Fire Phoenix - 380 points

Total - 4496

Plan is to put BSB in Wardens and the Prince in with the Knights.

Anything obviously wrong? Still getting to grips with rules so errors are expected.


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:23 pm 
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I am also new to 9th Age but I usually follow the discussion in the HE forum there.

The LC Prince is usually running independently since Chariots can't march, he would slow down the Knights of Ryma (if I remember correctly).
You can get the KoR down to 5 or 6 (keep the magical banner).
With the points you can perhaps exchange one unit of Reavers for Lancers to get another Scoring unit (this is actually quite important in 9th Age).

For the MoCT people give him an arcane toy to increase his magic phase a bit since he can't be Wizard Master. However the Spear is crazy good to have also.

In the forum people think Seaguard is overpriced so a suggestion would probably be to get 30 Archers with Flaming Banner instead and use the points for something else.

Flame Wardens with Rending Banner are pretty good :) Especially for your list where you want an anvil type unit while you shoot and harass with the Phoenix (at least that is what I think the list does ^^U).

I can't give more detailed advice because although I have read the rules I haven't played 9th Age myself!

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:13 am 
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Thanks for the feedback Elendor. I'll scrap the LC in Ryma idea. I'm really 50/50 on the BSB - read through a lot of discussion and batreps and there didn't appear to be a clear favourite. I'll probably playtest both versions - the one listed and one with BoAP and see how they get on.

I put Seaguard in as that's the models I have although I doubt players at my club will have issues with proxying. I agree they look overpriced in comparison to archers but will give them a few test games at some point.

Had a play around with downsizing KoR as suggested and swapping out SG for archers in a block of 27 with Flaming Standard. Can then fit in a unit of 6 lancers with musician.

After changes:

Characters (1314 points)

High Prince: Royal Huntsman on LC, Bluffers Helm, Talisman of Supreme Shielding, Shard of Cenryn, Great Weapon - 730 points

Commander: MoCT, BSB, Spear of the Blazing Dawn, Dragon Mantle, Heavy Armour, Shield, 4 Spells (3 Druidism, 1 Alchemy) - 584 points

Core (1267 points)

5 X Elein Reavers: Bows - 190 points
5 X Elein Reavers: Bows - 190 points
27 X Archers: Musician and Flaming Banners - 571 points
6 X Highborn Lancers: Musician - 316 points

Peacekeepers (360 points)

2 X Reapers

Special (1174 points)

20 X Flame Wardens: FC, Rending Banner - 660 points
6 X Knights of Rymza: FC, War Banner of Rymza - 514 points

Ancient Allies (380 points)

Fire Phoenix - 380 points

Total - 4495


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:22 am 
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Hi all

Look, I use the Prince in Lion chariot every game... there are one of the nastiest combo that we can get... ass commander BSB I use MoCT but with out the spear, with great weapons (They have Sword Sworn) and I think that you will not wound with less that 3+ with you BSB (S6 ) and take a better armour, maybe the Armour of destiny to have a 4+/4+ because armour save suffer a lot with high strength attacks...

In core i usually use sea guard, I know that they are overpricing... but give me the function of support shooting and can handle with small or week staff in C&C so you big block can handle stronger units...

In the special unit, i don't see the knight of Ryme as a good unit, they charge great but if they don't... is a mess or if you enemy survive they don't do much, I think that a Swordmaster unit will be better, principally with the MoCT with Druidism or maybe a WL unit will do the work...

The fire phoenix is awesome... one of our best unit...

I am not a expert, have some games... but not close to be an expert...


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Played a first game yesterday with the models I had v some MSU DaE. My list wasn't the greatest for playing MSU, big blocks that demolish in combat but were consistently outmanoeuvred (I put everything down one at a time, as did he and still got +7 to my first turn roll ;))

The list I had:

High Prince: Elven Mount, AoD, Shard, Ogre Sword
Commander: MoCT, Hero Sword, Dragon Mantle, DragonForce Armour, Shield, 4 x Druidism

30 X SG with FC and War Banner
6 X Lancers, musician
20 X FW with FC and Rending Banner (BSB here)
9 X KoR with FC and Ryma Banner (Prince here)
Flame Phoenix
3 X SGR

Messed up quite a few things - should have set up in a refused flank so I could concentrate on one side while he brought everything else over (house right in middle would have been good protection from shooting from that flank).

KoR with Prince laid waste to that flank, wiping out raptor chaff, Temple Guard and a bolt thrower before coming round to the centre and removing one of his Kraken. SG started well, hammering one unit of repeaters but disappointed in combat, failing to roll any 6's on wound rolls or armour saved for three turns of combat v a raptor chariot. Eventually his BSB joined in and broke them (in error - I forgot they had war banner so should have hung on)

On the left side the phoenix was ineffective as there was so much firepower over that side which meant he struggled to get involved without getting lit up. The lancers broke from turn 1s shooting but recovered to engage the other raptor chaff and break them but the overrun took them into a Kraken who killed them off. The FW got caught in no man's land to some extent, caught between getting involved in fights and keeping units in range for magic. They could and should have been used better.

Game swung on me forgetting to use shard in hydra fight with KoR and Prince. If he had I'd likely have got the final wound off which would have given me a turn at his Commanders unit and allowed me to compete for the objective they were sitting on. As it was we lost narrowly 11-9 with both objectives going to DaE.

All my problems stemmed from deployment and rustiness was evident throughout. Got a few more bits and pieces turning up this week which should help - a dragon lord, chariot, lancers and some archers. Will be trialling dragon lord next I think


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:07 am 
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20phoenix wrote:
As discussed in another thread I'm new to T9A so this thread will follow my faltering footsteps through learning the game and list development. I'm hampered initially by the models I have so this is the first army I'm likely to put on the field:

Here's what I'm starting out with:

Characters (1314 points)

High Prince: Royal Huntsman on LC, Bluffers Helm, Talisman of Supreme Shielding, Shard of Cenryn, Great Weapon - 730 points

Commander: MoCT, BSB, Spear of the Blazing Dawn, Dragon Mantle, Heavy Armour, Shield, 4 Spells (3 Druidism, 1 Alchemy) - 584 points

Core (1160 points)

5 X Elein Reavers: Bows - 190 points
5 X Elein Reavers: Bows - 190 points
30 X Sea Guard: FC - 780 points

Peacekeepers (360 points)

2 X Reapers

Special (1282 points)

20 X Flame Wardens: FC, Rending Banner - 660 points
8 X Knights of Rymza: FC, War Banner of Rymza - 622 points

Ancient Allies (380 points)

Fire Phoenix - 380 points

Total - 4496

Plan is to put BSB in Wardens and the Prince in with the Knights.

Anything obviously wrong? Still getting to grips with rules so errors are expected.


This looks very legit, especially when you factor in limited models (but even without, load outs etc look optimised). I'd want another reaper, possibly some more flame wardens, possibly a slightly smaller unit of KoR, and I'd definitely switch sea guard for archers and spears for the price, but honestly this looks good mate.

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:55 am 
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An 11-9 loss in your first game isn't bad. Especially if you're up against a more unusual army or one which is well suited to playing your army. So good game. MSU armies are interesting to play with and against. There is a lot of manoeuvrability. But if you get stuck in it can disappear quickly. Swordmaster of Hoeth has written extensively on his experience with MSU armies (in 8th edition) here on the site. If you're interested I can find you a link. It doesn't all transfer one on one to T9A of course, but a lot of the lessons are still applicable. And they're a good read.

It sounds like you have the right idea at least. Concentrate on parts of the army and try not to keep chasing after stuff. Also, see if there are concentrations of points somewhere. In a true MSU army this shouldn't be the case. But characters or elite units can be more expensive. It can be well worth only concentrating on those and ignoring the cheap stuff. A single character can easily be as expensive as a whole unit in a MSU army after all. And they are a lot easier to get points of in many cases (especially if you also take down the unit around him).

Also, divide and conquer. A MSU army only works if the units work together. Once you manage to start fighting stuff one on one or (for instance by refusing a flank) manage to only have to fight half the army you're one step ahead.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:14 am 
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I was an avid reader of Swordmasters reports when I played 8th. I wanted to try out that style then GW nuked the system before I got to!

I think the slightly negative feeling I had after the game was due to me always fighting combat on his terms. Hopefully more chaffy units will help with that in future.

My next fight will be using the dragon - it's fecking expensive though!

Plan is to run a gunline style list, 28 archers, dragon lord with elu bow, 3 reapers and a pyro master mage with BoAP. Maybe QC and/or QG if I can get them in. Force opponents to choose between sitting back and get peppered with shooting and spells or come and engage my strong charging units. Getting balance right in this one is tricky though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:19 am 
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So came up with two versions of dragon lists:

Option 1:

High Prince: Dragon Mount, Charm of Cursed Iron, Lucky Charm, Bow of Elu, GW - 900 points
Commander: QC, BSB, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows - 254 points
Mage: Master, BoAP, 4 spells - 520 points

21 Archers: Musician - 398
5 Reavers: Bows - 190
5 Lancers: Musician - 270
5 Lancers: Musician - 270

3 X SGR - 540

Fire Phoenix - 380

Lion Chariot - 230
19 X Swordmasters: FC - 545

Mage and BSB go into archers

Option 2:

Mage: Master, OotFH, Dragon, BoAP, Charm of Cursed Iron, Lucky Charm, 4 Spells - 1260
Commander: BSB, Elu Bow, DA, GW - 310

22 Archers: Musician - 416
5 Reavers: Bows - 190
5 Lancers: Musician - 270
5 Lancers: Musician - 270

3 X SGR - 540

12 X Queens Guard - 336

Lion Chariot - 230
24 X Swordmasters: FC - 670

BSB with archers again.

I'm going to try both and see how they get on. Second has more shots but is more reliant on the SM unit to take apart anything that comes close. First has weaker shooting but has a lot more combat threat. Mage and BSB are a bit naked though.

Someone with the surname Ferny is attending a T9A tournament at my local gaming club end of the month - is that the Ferntly from here?


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:45 am 
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I think in the first list I would put the Bow of Elu in the QC BSB instead of in the Prince on Dragon, and give the Prince real punch with Giant Sword, Divine Icon, Lucky Shield and Lucky Charm.

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Played two games against a WotDG army last night. He had a very mobile list with pretty much everything being light troops or fast cav. Tough to pin down in CC but no magic or shooting. First game I used the LC list but the game was a wash. Terrain made deployment tough for me as there was no good places for shooting and with refused flank as deployment he started pretty close to my units. TL:DR 18-2 loss and a decision that flame wardens are not what I want.

Second game was using an adapted form of the OotFH mage list (chariot and QG swapped out for KoR) and and this was much more interesting. I was able to sit back better with frontline clash and focus units before they got to me. With no artillery or shooting there was no threat to the mage who controlled the centre of the board well. I kept rolling poor flux rolls early on so didn't really get the spell output from the mage I wanted, however he did kill off the general by himself in CC. Sadly the store was closing so we didn't get to finish but with two turns left we were 12-8 up and well positioned to tighten the noose.

I've made a couple of changes following the game, changing the BSB to a LC with ToSS and bringing the QG (x14) back at the expense of KoR. So I've lost 3 ST5 shots but gained 14 ST4 shots but lost 13 ST7 CC attacks for a tougher 3 X ST6, 5 x ST5 hits that aren't reliant on a charge. Trying to strike a balance between getting enough damaging shooting and enough CC threat for when the enemy arrive at the gates is tough!


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Played two games against OK and was really impressed with QG addition. In my second game the three bruiser units crashing through the battlefield to get at my firebase were decimated as the spell/arrow assault left them with 2 models a piece by the time they crossed the board.

Chariot and SMs proved to be a great zoning threat in both games aided by my chariot going mental in the first game. He combo charged with the SMs into an Auroch but they didn't make it in. They weren't needed though as he shredded the Auroch who broke and was ran down. He then single handedly beat on a unit of slightly depleted bruisers breaking and running them down and overrunning into his weakened general who had his entire unit shit up and was limping along himself. Even found time to rout the two scrapper units to claim the secondary objective. What a stud! I think this influenced a lot of his thinking second game.

One moment nearly cost me the first game - my dragon had got into his back line and charged the scrappers who stood and shot, putting two wounds on! To add insult to injury the dragon flubbed the combat, took a wound and tied the combat which allowed a combo charge the following turn to kill him. Breaking the scrappers would have put me into the second scrapper unit and beyond fear of reprisal....

The second game was going brilliantly until a raft of failed charges and a couple of mistakes cost me the game. Live and learn

The list on the whole performed as intended and I'm going to stick with this for a few more games to properly learn it. Next game is against ID tomorrow which will be a new challenge as it's likely he will be fielding artillery, something for the dragon to worry about. Fairly sure he runs a titan too which will be a real challenge to handle - SMs look like best counter to him.

Only slight tweak I may try out is dropping honour but keeping dragon mounted mage which frees up 100 points for an eagle. More chaff would be nice but I lose guaranteed flaming swords and the ability to cast spells into mages combat.


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:06 am 
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Sounds like you've had a few good games :) The dragon, even though he got stuck against the scrappers, is usually loads of fun.

I think you're right that now that you have a list you like that you play it a couple of times to get a feel for how it performs and if there are any weak spots or places where the list could perform better.

Rod

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PS: Bring cookies!

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Sounds like you've had a few good games :) The dragon, even though he got stuck against the scrappers, is usually loads of fun.

I think you're right that now that you have a list you like that you play it a couple of times to get a feel for how it performs and if there are any weak spots or places where the list could perform better.

Rod


I think the trapper experience just helped highlight that just because he *should* win doesn't mean he will and a 1260 point piece needs to be supported better.


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:36 am 
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Indeed. It also highlights why top tournament players try to limit dice rolls as much as possible. Each time you pick up dice you run the risk of getting a bad roll. Of course, the more dice you roll the more likely you'll end up with an average roll. But we've all seen times when you roll 10 dice and end up with 5 1's and some 2's...

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:30 pm 
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My ID opponent for Friday cancelled so I played the WotDG guy again. He had made a couple of changes to his BSB and general, giving one a 1+ rerollable AS and the other a 4+ ward, mounting both on crushers.

Two games later I cut a quite frustrated figure as in both games I struggled to pump out the damage output I needed before they gatecrashed my lines. T4 with decent armour saves is a bitch to take down with ST3/4 shooting and magic. Once he got to combat I was toast. He is arguably one of the best players at our club so I kinda expect to lose especially when he's playing a tournament prep list when I have something a little fluffier! Two 20-0 wasn't pleasant though.

I'm experimenting with dropping elite infantry for a couple of games to get some additional mobility and see where that leads me. I've added in a little extra ranged power

Pyro Dragon Take 1:

Wizard Master: General, Dragon Mount, 4 Spells Pyromancy, BoAP, Charm of Cursed Iron, Lucky Charm - 1160
Commander: Queens Companion, Bow of Elu, BSB, Dragonforged Armour, GW - 350

21 Archers: M - 398
5 Reavers: Bow - 190
5 X Lancers: M - 270
5 X Lancers: M - 270

3 X SGR - 540

14 X Queens Guard: M - 412

5 X Knights of Ryma: 340
5 X Knights of Ryma: 340
Lion Chariot 230

Playing Sylvan Elves tomorrow who reputedly have two treefathers and a Giant Elk lord.


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:40 am 
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part of the problem perhaps is that elven shooting isn't very good. Especially vs higher T or armoured opponents their efficiency goes down very fast. And having a dragon in the list then means that you don't really have enough points for some defensive units on the table.

Still, I think the new list is worth a try. It has enough mobile threats to at least make someone think twice before moving into their charge range.

Also, it must be said that playing a tournament list with a fluff one will always be an uphill struggle. Especially against one of the better players around. So keep that in mind when making changes to the list.

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

For Nagarythe: Come to the dark side.
PS: Bring cookies!

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:14 pm 
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I feel like the last list is more skewed towards a gunline, and that makes the matchups to be more binary.

Perhaps some Flame Wardens could give you more staying power to buy time for your shock units to counter-charge?
They aren't that good vs T4 high AS (although you can consider the Rending Banner) but you have KoR, LC and the Dragon for damage, so an anvil unit can be nice.
To make room for FW I would remove one unit of KoR.

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Played the Sylvan Elves this evening.

They had:

Treefathers Ancient
30 SA with flaming banner
2 X 5 Pathfinders
10 X Dryads
9? Briar Maidens
2 X 5 Huntsman
Eagle
Mage on a Unicorn in the maidens
BSB with the sacred spear and a 2+/4++

Turn 1:
We got the diagonal deployment and the double objective secondary. After I'd drooped reavers and lancers he dropped everything to guarantee first turn which was useful as it allowed me to deploy almost everything out of range of first turn shooting. His first turn he advanced one unit of huntsman on my left flank while the treefathers pushed on alongside his pathfinders. Everything else shuffled round a bit. His magic took out the bolt thrower on my right flank after I let his ring of fire through, figuring it should survive it. QG got break the spirit too. One Ryma dart took a couple of casualties from the big archers while the pathfinders underperformed only dropping a single reaver.

I declined the charge on the pathfinders with the reavers, instead moving them to chaff the long charge from the treefathers and puttting them behind the wall. My left lancer dart moved to give cover to the bolt throwers. Right flank advanced with on helm dart moving to flank the right huntsman unit. A 12 dice magic phase was not good news for the SE as I drew out his dispel dice on a 2D6 pyroclastic on the huntsman and a big salvo, allowing me to get off an unimpeded embers which decimated the archers for 12 casualties. Two fireballs went into the huntsman unit trimming off a couple who soon became one after the QG did their bit too. Rest of my shooting removed his eagle, took a couple off the left huntsman unit and one off the pathfinders.

Turn 2

He charged the lone huntsman into my dragon mage while shuffling his depleted right flank around. Treefathers wandered over to the centre with the Dryads moving up behind him. The left huntsman retreated and hid. His magic halved the QG with RoF, the pathfinders took a wound off the nearest bolt thrower while the archers put three wounds on my right lancer dart. Combat was pretty predictable - the dragon walking through unscratched.

I charged the dragon into the flank of the briar maidens and the left lancers into a pathfinder unit who stood and shot one down. Reavers chaffed the Dryads while the Ryma knights and chariot set up charges on the treefather if he decided to come further forward. Magic was a bust as was shooting largely, plinking off a couple of models here and there. The dragon won the combat with the briar maidens but they stuck on a 5 while the lancers killed a couple of pathfinders but failed to break them either.

Turn 3

He took the archers with his BSB into the flank of the dragon and his send pathfinders into the lancer fight. The treefather failed a long charge on a bolt thrower while he didn't take the baited charge on the reavers. His magic was in combat so he contented himself with a -ST spell on the dragon. Nothing else got through. No shooting as it was all in combat so into combat where the protracted pathfinder fight took a step towards conclusion as the lancers broke the charging unit but the other one stuck around with one model left. The combination of -1 to hit from the spear and the -ST spell neutralised the dragon and he lost combat. I had a lot of units in position to counter charge anything he pursued with but he did it anyway with the briar maidens. I rolled 11, he rolled 12 #-o . This overran them into my depleted Ryma Knights but left them exposed to a charge from the lion chariot.

The chariot duly charged and made it in, while my depleted Ryma Knights took on a 18 inch charge on the flank of the Dryads. This also made it. Reavers failed a march test to chaff the treefather so just march blocked the archers and his huntsman. Lancers on the right objective swift reformed and took cover behind a hill until I could tie down his shooting. Bolt throwers put two wounds on the treefather and reavers plinked one off the archer unit. Combat saw the lancers finally win the pathfinder fight, reforming to face the remaing fleeing unit. Ryma Knights and Lion Chariot melted the Maidens and mage with the Chariot overrunning into the archers and the Ryma Knights reforming to face the Dryads. Dryads lost their fight but stuck.

Turn 4

It was looking bleak at this point for the SE. Treefather failed his charge again, remaining huntsman moved to flank the chariot. No magic or shooting, Dryads and archers list and broke from their respective fights, both getting caught.

We played on but that was effectively game and my first ever 20-0. Opponent is newish as well (played about 13-14 games) and admitted to being flummoxed about what to do vs the gunline, especially after that first turn demolition of his archers. I don't think there's a huge amount to read into that game, that was almost ideal opposition for me, plenty of T3 for my shooting and magic to wade into. Playing again on Thursday but not sure what (it's between skaven, O+G or VS). Haven't played any horde type games ever in 8th or 9th so this could be an interesting learning experience! Any tips?


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Played some VS last night and lost 20-0. I had some elements of misfortune - a ratling gun shrugging off three turns of fire from ten QG and two bolt throwers without taking a wound, a unit of HL and KoR failing to pursue into a combat with his plague brotherhood and my BSB dying on the Thaumaturgy spell with the D6 roll off when he needed a 6. I made a serious error with my SM though as they fought his generals unit. Misallication of attacks meant I didn't kill off the grinder and the resulting grind attacks lost me 8SMs, the combat and the unit as they were run down. Without that I would have taken down all his characters most likely - a big points and momentum swing. First time playing Skaven though and it was a hugely entertaining game.

Going to drop the dragon for a bit and play with infantry characters.

This list:

Asfad Master Mage: General, Skull Splitter, BoAP, 4 Spells - Pyro - 665
Commander: High Warden, Bronze Breastplate, Spear of Blazing Dawn, Shield - 459

21 Archer: M - 398
5 Reavers: Bow - 190
5 Lancers: M - 270
5 Lancers: M - 270

3 SGR - 540

10 Queens Guard: 280

Flame Phoenix - 380

5 KoR: M - 360
Lion Chariot: 230
17 X SM: C - 455

Keeps the shooty elements of last list, swaps dragon mount for phoenix and additional SMs plus a more fighty element in the High Warden


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:37 pm 
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Some general thoughts so far:

Changes to terrain: Very good. It's simple, it's effective.

Magic: I like the big punishment for miscasting when going big. It's a nice mechanism. However, there isn't enough spells out there that warrant risking it so it becomes a pacifier for magic in general. Lores need balancing a bit, Pyro is strong but it's an offensive lore so will always feel that way. You're giving up utility for damage potential. Druidism feels the opposite, range is a major issue (attribute particularly). The people that need those single wound heals are often too far away. Divination is on my to try list.

Magic items: Feels like a lot of redundant items especially in weapons. Ring of fire feels cheap. Extremely underwhelmed by Bow of Elu. Feel it needs to ignore MS penalties for its cost. Skull splitter on mages is nice.

HBE units: Our core feels fine although Seaguard need a fix to make them relevant. Heavy Armour feels right for their cost. Frosty looks like he's missing something but haven't used him (because of that feel). Grey watchers look awful. Love the base 4 on KoR,vthey feel like elite cavalry again.Our special is great I think, it's a nice toolbox.

Mounts: Need a look at I think to make more fliers viable. Even sitting on a dragon I found too much hurt me and a 3+ AS rarely cuts it

Overall very happy with the game :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:52 am 
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I like the new list. A bit more balanced then the dragon variety. I'm interested to read how it plays. And also if you like the way it plays (compared to a more mobile dragon list).

I've heard points similar to your general observations from others as well. Magic has been nerfed too much to be worth the points in a lot of cases. Either the power level of many spells needs to go up or the miscast damage needs to be reduced for it to be really worth it. Same with monsters (as mounts). The mechanic of sharing the armour save is interesting (and it prevents some abuse we've seen in regular WH). But it reduces the number of viable builds and forces some playstyles.

As for Sea guard, they have almost always been that way. A bit too much a compromise to be really worth it.
Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic has been nerfed too much to be worth the points in a lot of cases.

I guess this is a reaction to 8th, where magic is powerful. But getting a balance is not easy.

Prince of Spires wrote:
As for Sea guard, they have almost always been that way. A bit too much a compromise to be really worth it.

They seemed OK to me with the equivalent of Quick to Fire but that was in the early drafts of 9th Age.

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Magic has been nerfed too much to be worth the points in a lot of cases. Either the power level of many spells needs to go up or the miscast damage needs to be reduced for it to be really worth it. Same with monsters (as mounts). The mechanic of sharing the armour save is interesting (and it prevents some abuse we've seen in regular WH). But it reduces the number of viable builds and forces some playstyles.
Rod


A complain commonly heard in the 9th Age forum is that the miscast table is too harsh, as it always triggers witch fire which kills a lot of models around the mage (particularly if said models are T3 5+ AS :roll: ).
There is also a discussion about the Lores, there are 10 but 3/4 are dominating.

For monsters, only the toughest are taken as mounts, such as the Ancient Dragon (the resident Star Dragon), and items such as Lucky Shield (ignores first impact) and Lucky Charm (allows a re-roll of the first failed armor save) are almost mandatory (or Ironcurse Icon).
Another point of discussion is how to make monstrous mounts worth taken, because Dragons/Griffons/etc are a bit underwhelming at the moment, unless they have top tier statlines like the Ancient Dragon.

The 2.0 version is coming before the end of the year in theory, and there has been a request for proposals from the community regarding several issues like magic and secondary objectives these last months, so it is expected to change a lot (for good, hopefully).

Seaguard and Grey Watchers (your resident Shadow Warriors in 9th) are considered to be in a bad spot by many HE players, and the army support team has discussed ways to improve them in the adaptation to 2.0 (before the HE book is remade for 2.0, what I mean is the adaptation of the 1.3 book to the 2.0 rules).

This reminds me that I should play a game of 9th Age instead of just reading the forums :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Played two games with the infantry character list and produced my two best results to date.

First game was a mirror match with diagonal deployment and hold the centre. Opponent used a fairly resilient list:

20 Seaguard
2 X 5 Reavers
1 X 5 Lancers
24 FW with FC and flaming banner
27? Lion Guard
3 SGR
Eagle
HWotF BSB with Ryma Banner
MoCT general with 2 ALC/2 druid, ring of fire and something else.

He dropped early for first turn, and it was a belter of a first turn as he shot the chariot off and broke a lancer dart who fled off. Our shooting and pyro swung the game back over the next few turns though and although he tried to zone out the central forest where the objective was with his three combat blocks I was able to make an 13" charge into his reduced lion guard with my Swordmasters who did 8 wounds and auto broke them. I didn't chase the remainder though, reforming to face the wardens and sea guard. An excellent round of shooting reduced his wardens to a manageable size and from that point it became a case of how much I could get with my firebase mostly intact and the phoenix menacing the remainder of the wardens. Ended up as a 15-5 with his lancers, wardens and a bolt thrower surviving.

My second game was the lusty WotDG again. This was a really close game which we didn't quite get to finish. He had a few moments where dice deserted him like a unit of chosen being sent packing by Ryma Knights who had failed their charge, got counter charged, survived three rounds of combat before breaking them. This gave me a second unit to dispute the objective with and finish with a 10-10 draw. My BSB ate up his general, with the phoenix removing a unit of chosen with a rear charge after a flyover and then his sorceror.

Overall quite happy with that setup. Phoenix adds ranged potential and a combat threat with flanks and rear charges after his flyovers. Spear high warden did well taking out the general and gives the Swordmasters that extra edge. Protecting them to get them where they need to go will be key in a lot of fights.

I'll probably drop Asfad as I think pyro is fine without it although sitting on the edge of longbow range with the archers is nice. When I try divination I'll keep a similar setup, but dropping book for ring of fire and sceptre. For pyro I can drop asfad and a bolt thrower for a sloop when I have the model for it or asfad, chariot, a couple of command options and the sceptre to get a second phoenix (don't have model for that either ;)) Rending Banner on SMs could work too.


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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:19 pm 
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elendor_f wrote:
For monsters, only the toughest are taken as mounts, such as the Ancient Dragon (the resident Star Dragon

This is an issue in 8th too.

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:08 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
elendor_f wrote:
For monsters, only the toughest are taken as mounts, such as the Ancient Dragon (the resident Star Dragon

This is an issue in 8th too.

I suspect this is a bit down to the nature of the game. You're investing a lot of points in a big model. When you do (no matter which big model you pick) it needs to be worth it. So you want to get the most utility out of it. This means as high S and as many attacks as possible to deal as much damage as you can and as tough as possible to make sure you don't lose all those points. Which means you almost always end up with the strongest monster option you can.

I have toyed in 8th in listbuilding with the idea of running a sun dragon lord instead of a star dragon one. Tried it once as well. And the problem really is that the dragon is not very strong. You save 155 points in the combination. But that is only limited compensation for losing S and T 7. And 155 points doesn't get you a lot in return. 5 DP's or a kitted out lvl 2 mage or similar. It's only really worth the downgrade when you're playing smaller games and can't fit the star dragon in. Or when playing a fluff list.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:42 pm 
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I agree and the problem is compounded because you're still having to spend points on an expensive rider, who is less well protected. Weaker Monsters than the Star Dragon (Chimaera, Frostheart etc) can often still be a good choice in 8th at least because they cost so much less without the rider.

The other way to go is to ride a Monstrous Beast or the equivalent.

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:34 am 
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But even those are a bit hit and miss. The S6, T6 combined with fly of the Frostheart is great and makes him useable. But his real strength that makes him worth taking is Blizzard aura, which means he's great at holding up stuff and he makes your own troops fight a lot better. The flamespire on the other hand just always underwhelms, even though there isn't that much difference between them.

The same can be said for most other monsters. To be worth it they generally need to be either very tough and hard hitting or offer a lot of utility which makes the rest of the army perform better. The frostheart got a lot of complaints because it was in both categories (sort of).

Monstrous beasts are indeed a very different beast. With the combined stat line they are very often worth it in specific lists. They offer a lot of upside. Basically more attacks and higher T for your character. And the only downside they have is that hiding in units is tough. If griffons were monstrous beasts for instance I think they would see a lot more use then they do now.

Rod

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 Post subject: Re: The Learning Curve
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:55 am 
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Ive got a mounted Frosty, mounted Griffon, no magic roster in the pipeline. FW anvil with hard charging elements. Something more fun than shooty/pyro lists I've used so far.


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