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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:28 pm 
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Ok guys and gals. I've made this thread specifically for everyone to complain about Age of Sigmar. I am very curious why everyone thinks this game is so horrible. Balancing armies is not easy, but were they ever really balanced? You can't tell me that a tomb king armybook could compete with high elves back in 8th edition. Besides balancing, what is so wrong with it?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:15 pm 
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1. I'm not a big fan of the rules - played a couple of games and they seem to be a weird combination of a simplistic ruleset with a ton of specific rules of every single unit. Even the most basic ones get a couple and while its very characterful (love some of the Skaven ones) it makes it very difficult for the game to flow. It was irritating enough with 8th that you needed to know the key combos for each army, but now it got a bit silly. I kind of like what they did to monsters but again - keeping track of wounds on everything and looking up how it affects their movement/attacks is tricky.

2. The lack of guidelines to army creation is a concern. I have no way how to set up a fair game (out of the box), though the comp packs probably help a lot.

Both of these wouldn't be a problem - I've lived through 18 years of GW silly rules and balance issues. The main problem I have with the game is that:

3. It killed the Old World. I just don't have any emotional attachment to the Igneous Delta or Vandus Hammerhand. I'd happily play any new system that was back in the Old World, but this is just not Warhammer anymore. Its like Luke Skywalker being teleported to live with the Smurfs would not be Star Wars.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:11 pm 
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What I don't like:

1- Magic. It went from being a game within a game to a simple roll 2 dice and see if you make the target number. Some spells are just too good, particularly summoning, but arguments can also be made for Arcane Shield and the Wood Elf one which doubles your movement.

2-Stupid Rules. You're an empire State Trooper with a troll trying to eat you, but can somehow reload, aim and fire with no loss of accuracy at a target in a different combat 12" away? Also things like the Solar Engine.

3- Sameness of the games I've played. Without playing a scenario, every game I've seen/played seems to have turned into some combination of avoidance-hammer, scrum in the middle or charge the guns.

4-Rend. It originally looked like saves wouldn't be a problem, but when a 4+ save unit which rerolls 1s on it's save is standing in a forest under 2 casting of Arcane Shield, things get silly quickly. Particularly, given HE access to multi-wounds, mortal wounds and rend 2.

What I do like:

1-The way Multiwound attacks are handled.

2-The fact that every army can compete. Some units or combinations of units are still too good though.

Edit: not trying to say that it's unplayable and I appreciate the fact that you like AoS, gromo. For myself, though I just don't enjoy it anywhere near as much as WHFB. I would ask everyone to try and keep this as a polite discussion.


Last edited by Cold Phoenix on Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:02 pm 
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1. It dealt with NONE of the real problems with warhammer. There are still tons of places where the rules aren't clear, and GW still doesn't address those.

Balance was always an issue, but it's 10 times the problem now. And that's if you are trying to be reasonable about things. Are 10 dragon princes and 20 High elf spears a fair match for 10 empire knights and 30 state troops with spears? The only real way to decide it to play. If you don't try to be reasonable it gets out of hand really quickly. A game shouldn't just leave all sense of fair play up to the players, it should at least offer some guidelines.

I also agree with the sameness of the games point raised by cold phoenix. I felt that even 8th ran into a lot of that, but AoS takes the problem farther.

Despite the basic rules being simple, the overall rules are just as complicated as they ever were. Instead of learning a lot of rules that were consistent and a few that were special now you learn a few rules that are consistent and a lot that are special. At best that's a wash.

2. If this game wasn't from GW not a single person would give it a 2nd glance. For a decade they've managed to live off nothing but their name. This time I think they went far enough to damage themselves a bit. But the fact that it's worked at all is in some ways proof of how valuable the name is. Be honest here, if another company had put out the same rules would you have even looked at them?

3. It no longer feels/plays like a wargame as I'd always known them. That's probably not an issue for most current players as they come from a much different background. But it is an issue for me. It's not quite a skirmish game either. I think they wanted to get the best of both worlds. I don't think they achieved that.

4. A setting that I enjoyed was removed for one that I don't find appealing at all. And as much as I mocked the recent (and a lof of the old) fluff that was written for WFB, it's high quality compared to what they've put out there for AoS so far.

Just to throw a positive in here, I do think it scales to small games better (or at least easier) than WFB ever did.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:55 am 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Just to throw a positive in here, I do think it scales to small games better (or at least easier) than WFB ever did.


But it still can't hold a candle to Mordheim.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:16 am 
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Admin note: I've removed the all caps and extra exclamation marks from the topic title. No need for those. Also, I'll be keeping an eye out for the tone of the topic in general...

For me, I think it comes down to the following points.

- fluff: WHFB ran in a world with a decent fluff depth which I found interesting and liked adding to. This is not the case with AoS. The fluff just isn't there in the most part. And what is there is just not very interesting to me.

- Type of battles. I liked WH as a game of mass battles. AoS is not about regiments and emulating a pitched fantasy battle. It's a skirmish game and there are more interesting skirmish games out there. So it's not what I look for in a tabletop battle game.

- balance: yes, WHFB had its balance issues. But, in the setting where I played (friendly, bring units that are fun) balance didn't give a lot of trouble. Balance was more an issue when you went to competitive types of games. AoS just is very hard to balance because there is no way of knowing what your opponent would bring. With WH you could bring 2000 points and have a rough idea of what you would be up against. For AoS this is not the case. It's very hard to bring a force that's balanced against your opponent without knowing your opponent and having a pre-game discussion about balance.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:53 am 
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I will try to keep my cool as this thread start had the scent of flamebait and this issue hits close to my heart. Still...

The whys.

1. The Rules.

Or better, the lack of. The AoS "free" rules are non-existant as rules. End of. It has no complexity or depth in its 4-page oversimplification. There is no interaction between miniatures - it doesn't matter if my spearelf is hitting a snotling or Malekith, he will always hit on a X+ and wound on a Y+. There is not even a shred of a semblance of balance in the base rules, and this only shows how lazy GW has become, no doubt in line with their new "We're not a games workshop, oh no! We're a premium (finecast, premium? riiiiight) model-producing company" idea/logo. There is no points value, no way to balance things. Yes, 8th edition wasn't perfectly balanced. Heck, I have never seen a WHFB edition that was perfectly balanced, and there will never be such a thing (I still remember 6th Edition Intrigue at court and it makes me snicker at how many times my scroll caddy ended up the Army General, with a new-found fondness now when compared to AoS). But there was something. An attempt at it. A "look we know it's not perfect but we're trying". It's not that HE's are weaker or stronger. That's not it. That's not what the player base that has a bone to pick against AoS is going on about. It's just that it looks GW isn't trying anymore - but more on that in a bit.

2. The fluff.

I started wargaming over a decade ago without even noticing it, when I picked up the 5th edition High Elf armybook and read through it within an hour. 6th Edition was around the corner so I didn't even try to understand the ruling, but I immediately fell in love with the fluff. A few months later I picked up the BRB and read the rules, and patiently waited for the HE rulebook to come out, practicing my hand with a HE army kindly lent by a veteran player in the FLGS that I was playing on. I was sad to see Alarielle and Belannaer go from being playable when the Armybook came, and happy to see how Eltharion's character was evolving. I immediately connected with the lore. It was the game, the lore, that brought me to paying the money I was paying for those little plastic soldiers. It was the tale of a desperate last ditch against evil, an eternal (losing) battle for the Asur and the lesser races. It was grim and dirty and if felt real. To me, at least.
So it felt like a huge betrayal when AoS kicked in and scrapped decades of investment in this beautiful, realistic enough, world. and I know I'm not the "worst" as I only (no irony here) have over a decade of wargaming. I can only begin to imagine how the veterans of 20, 30 years of Warhammer, that have been by GW's side since the very beginning, feel.
The new setting is a hasty amalgamation of Norse mythology and 40k mythos, thrown in to capture quick bucks and to assure that their precious IP was as copyright-able as humanly possible.
Sure you can say that WHFB is an amalgamation of several mythos as well, but it has the weight of the years behind it - it grew past that a looong time ago. It had a loyal, borderline fanatical player base that stood by its side through it all. Through the moderate fiasco that was Storm of Chaos, through the 7th Edition implosion that was called "Armybook: Daemons of Chaos". Through the multiple times Fantasy was put behind 40k. The player base was there and kept coming back but now? With the sudden, brutal total reset it almost looks like GW isn't caring anymore.

3. GW doesn't care anymore

In the end, GW decided to ditch their veterans to try and capture newblood. They are using several fallacies (I like the Look, Free Rules! one best) and accompanying this brave new "world" with a massive price hike - look at Optimus-Prime and now Skarbrand, and take a peek at price of the big new Tau suit to see how it's now logically flowing through to 40k. And this, this is what bothers me the most. The blatant disregard for a loyal fanbase that believed in them, in their brand. They now expect us to buy anything they throw at us just because they made it. And that... that is the worst of it all. We're not good enough for them anymore, we suddenly don't have the "Warhammer DNA" anymore. They don't care about their player base anymore - for them we're just wallets on legs that need, that deserve to be relentlessly milked. That's why they don't cater to players anymore - their target audience are the "hobbyists".

As a final note, think about this:

- AoS is sold as an "cheap, entry-level friendly" game with an exorbitantly priced starter box and unit boxes, far more expensive cash-per-model than Fantasy ever was.
- As a skirmish game is easily bested by Mordheim which is far, far more entertaining (which has free rules as well and was made by the very. same. company. by the by), not to mention Lord of The Rings/Malifaux/Warmahordes/etc.
- As an entry level game it is once more bested by multiple other games. (Mordheim - again - but you can add Bloodbowl and Dreadball, just for a quick reference.)
- As a massed battle system it will always lag behind Kings of War, 9th Age and any WHFB incarnation, whose shoes it will never be able to fill.

:cry: I need a drink...

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Last edited by Lithlandis Stormcrow on Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:34 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
- fluff: WHFB ran in a world with a decent fluff depth which I found interesting and liked adding to. This is not the case with AoS. The fluff just isn't there in the most part. And what is there is just not very interesting to me.

I haven't read the AoS fluff but I feel GW's stuff often starts out lightweight but improves with time. The early Old World stuff was very sketchy and the WE realms debuted in the current army book feel made-up to me. The years and artwork, models etc may help to flesh things out.

As for balance, I agree with Rod. Unless you are ETC-level competitive 8th plays pretty well as it is.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
that have been by GW's side since the very beginning,

GW have not been very nice since about 1990 (when they changed from 'of the scene' to 'apart from the scene'). I think many of us who know them of old are not that surprised at what they do anymore.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:54 am 
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I agree Spell, but I think this is just shy of a total rupture with the player base, really.

Even die hard GW white knights are having difficulties defending them at the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:04 am 
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Yeah, this is 'The Big One' perhaps.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:41 pm 
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So basically, you all feel like you had your backs stabbed by GW. They enveloped you in their glorious fluff, (which I was actually preparing to read because I had just gotten into fantasy right before it shut down, but as you can all probably tell I'm a hardcore 40k player lol), made you feel like you were in the world with them, then all of a sudden they delete the game, say you guys aren't good enough customers anymore, and throw you to the wolves. That's the vibe I'm getting and perhaps the biggest reason why you all hate Age of Sigmar the most.
There's just something though about the GW models that keeps me coming back I believe. I think if another company made comparable models with a comparable game( and I wasn't HUGELY invested in Warhammer), I might consider change. Kings of War is just beginning but I feel like it will never be Fantasy as much as it would like to be.
I absolutely feel like the games turn into a mish mash. AoS definitely needs a few different game types to spice it up. And personally, the rules about shooting in combat I really enjoy. I imagine Legolas in close quarters taking down orcs. If he decides to shoot in the combat next to him and sacrifice attacks and probably himself to save another, let him do that. But anyways..
It really is unfortunate that GW betrayed the Fantasy players. If this happened to 40k I'm not sure how I would feel. (probably like all of you perhaps) We can always hope for the best though. Soon enough there will be an "Aelves" book, and I really hope for both our sakes the fluff is good because Warhammer needs good fluff. And although the word "Aelves" makes us cringe, I bet the new models will be unbelievable. Overall, I'm very nervous 40k is next.. Could this business minded attitude be the end of GW???


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:14 pm 
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gromo wrote:
So basically, you all feel like you had your backs stabbed by GW. They enveloped you in their glorious fluff, (which I was actually preparing to read because I had just gotten into fantasy right before it shut down, but as you can all probably tell I'm a hardcore 40k player lol), made you feel like you were in the world with them, then all of a sudden they delete the game, say you guys aren't good enough customers anymore, and throw you to the wolves. That's the vibe I'm getting and perhaps the biggest reason why you all hate Age of Sigmar the most.
There's just something though about the GW models that keeps me coming back I believe. I think if another company made comparable models with a comparable game( and I wasn't HUGELY invested in Warhammer), I might consider change. Kings of War is just beginning but I feel like it will never be Fantasy as much as it would like to be.
I absolutely feel like the games turn into a mish mash. AoS definitely needs a few different game types to spice it up. And personally, the rules about shooting in combat I really enjoy. I imagine Legolas in close quarters taking down orcs. If he decides to shoot in the combat next to him and sacrifice attacks and probably himself to save another, let him do that. But anyways..
It really is unfortunate that GW betrayed the Fantasy players. If this happened to 40k I'm not sure how I would feel. (probably like all of you perhaps) We can always hope for the best though. Soon enough there will be an "Aelves" book, and I really hope for both our sakes the fluff is good because Warhammer needs good fluff. And although the word "Aelves" makes us cringe, I bet the new models will be unbelievable. Overall, I'm very nervous 40k is next.. Could this business minded attitude be the end of GW???


Unfortunately I think you have no need to be nervous about 40k being next for AoSification - I think you can be sure that 40k is next. Why do you think Mantic has the Warpath kickstarter going on? They're foreseeing it already.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:22 pm 
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Regarding the AoS-led price creep seeping into 40k, ladies and gents, the new Tau suit's price.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:29 pm 
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gromo wrote:
I imagine Legolas in close quarters taking down orcs.
Even Legolas used knives in close combat. At least in the original, you are not going to fool us! :lol: /joke

Aelves is just old way of spelling Elves, so not sure what they were trying to accomplish here.

What I dislike about AoS:

1) Fluff. They took everything I liked about the Old World and replaced it with things I do not care about in the slightest. Buying the End Times books (had the feeling I will want them if GW really end it this time, turned out I didn't really :mrgreen: ) left me with little desire to buy any new ones.

2) Models. I just do not like 99% of what they are releasing since they started End Times. So there is a good chance the trend will continue. The way they paint the models these days does not help. They sell for a premium but paint it like they were trying to entice newbies. Of course, they also efectively priced me out by now.

3) Rules. I have little time to play any games these days. Playing several games before I can even hope to have reasonably fair one is not a prospect I like. I would like GW to do some of the work for me. And yes, I care about reasonably fair games. I didn't get further than this with trying the rules out, so will not comment on them.

gromo wrote:
So basically, you all feel like you had your backs stabbed by GW. They enveloped you in their glorious fluff, (which I was actually preparing to read because I had just gotten into fantasy right before it shut down, but as you can all probably tell I'm a hardcore 40k player lol), made you feel like you were in the world with them, then all of a sudden they delete the game, say you guys aren't good enough customers anymore, and throw you to the wolves.
I wouldn't put it like this, not after reading most of the answers above. But they definitely ended something lot of us were heavily invested in, without even acknowledging that someone might feel bad about it. Why, when AoS is the new black... I mean gold, isn't it? :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:31 pm 
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Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Unfortunately I think you have no need to be nervous about 40k being next for AoSification - I think you can be sure that 40k is next. Why do you think Mantic has the Warpath kickstarter going on? They're foreseeing it already.
Depends how their sales go. There might be some gearing back if AoS hurts really bad.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:25 pm 
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A Little off topic, but I picked up my High Elves armybook yesterday just for fun. It felt so much nicer than the online crappy print outs. :?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:39 pm 
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gromo wrote:
A Little off topic, but I picked up my High Elves armybook yesterday just for fun. It felt so much nicer than the online crappy print outs. :?


Still have to pick mine up - the beauty of having a toddler-oriented budget :D

Aicanor wrote:
There might be some gearing back if AoS hurts really bad.


I guess we'll be getting some info in January, but even then may be a bit too early.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:56 am 
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I was a complete sceptic at the start and after 3/4 games thought it was terrible. However, I persevered with it and have played 25+ games since then and absolutely love it. A few plus':

1) Scenario's - Absolutely vital. You cannot just play a game and run at each other. Death stars, scrums, summoning etc become far less ridiculous under scenarios. I played a tournament ercently and it was the best tournament I've been too (genuinely!!).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vz6nq3s46zgyj ... e.pdf?dl=0 - Rulespack
http://www.agom.co.uk/events/information-pack/ - PDF of objectives halfway down

2) No points. Initially thought they'd gone mental, but they might have been clever or lucky. Means tournaments can choose to do what they want. Clash comp is obviously very visible and works exceptionally well. Also, the scroll builder is a very elegant tool.

http://www.scrollbuilder.com/

3) Books. I love buying rulebooks. I have £1,500 worth of GW books on a shelf next to me. Having them in PDF means you can look at everything though. Had a quick look at the hydra rules and suddenly find myself ordering a Witch Elf army. I've printed out and bound the ones I'll use (although I work at a University so get this done for free which sin't possible for all).

4) Looseness of the rules. I find it fairly tight for the most part as the 'grey' areas are very intuitive once you've played a number of games. What I have found is the people you play HAVE to be more decent, and it genuinely provides good games. The games I hated in previous editions have involved idiots across the table starting every sentence with "Well, technically..." and I felt like gouging their eyes out. Now, anything that might come up you say to your opponent, and they're decent enough to discuss any queries they have. This was DEFINITELY a purpose of the rules.

5) Fluff. Can't say i'm a massive fan of how they destroyed the world. Would have preferred it to be a shell of what it was, but there we are. What I have found is playing 'Old school' games feels like you are in the old world. We've actually swapped a war of the beard campaign to AoS as it FEELS more right. (Still shaky on this though, admittedly).

On reflection, would I have carried on if it wasn't GW? I'm not sure. After 20 years of providing me with a haven from the real world though, they deserved a chance and I really believe they have something going with this.


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