How has AoS done in your area?

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Lithlandis Stormcrow
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#31 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Motley wrote: I would not say we are super competitive wargamers that attend tournaments, none of use have a lifestyle conducive to doing that these days. We do, you know, like to win though - does that mean we are not proper wargamers?
As Aicanor said, I do believe there is no need to be defensive on how you enjoy the game :)

I really find it sad that nowadays every discussion about AoS seems to inevitably come to the competitive vs non-competitive "fight" - or close to it, anyway. I myself am not super competitive, but I do enjoy a game system in which there is at least a semblance of balance and I can't see that on AoS (I won't discuss the whole "Scenario provides balance" falacy or my short temper will go KABOOM :|).

In the end it's always about what kind of game GW wants to make AoS into, regardless of how many of their fans they alienate. I think the fact that the previous system had been in place for three decades, and had so much dedication suddenly voided into nothing (not going to mention money because I think it's not the main source of the rift - I apologize if I sound arrogant for assuming to know that our love for those tiny pointy-eared bums is far more than monetary) only added fuel to the fire.

As a sidenote, the moment I read the AoS four pages of rules This particularly unfortunate article cranked out by J.Johnson - waaay back in 2002 when I had just started my High Elves - came into mind. I recommend reading Mr Johnson's article and then consider how AoS falls in line with it.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#32 Post by Motley »

Aicanor wrote:
Motley wrote:does that mean we are not proper wargamers?
Of course, you have to be a tournament player with adrive to lose to count. ;-)


Jokes aside, I do not think you need to be defensive of your enjoyment of the game. I would actually like to try the rules out before I ditch them.
Of course there are people who do not like it and think the game is silly. But most people in the world think tabletop wargaming is silly, so... :wink:
I didn't mean to sound defensive - I am just a bit sad as this used to be one of my favourite warhammer forums, one of the few places you could read a good discussion, now is is like a ghost town.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#33 Post by SpellArcher »

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:As a sidenote, the moment I read the AoS four pages of rules This particularly unfortunate article cranked out by J.Johnson - waaay back in 2002 when I had just started my High Elves - came into mind. I recommend reading Mr Johnson's article and then consider how AoS falls in line with it.
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69209
Motley wrote:I didn't mean to sound defensive - I am just a bit sad as this used to be one of my favourite warhammer forums, one of the few places you could read a good discussion, now is is like a ghost town.
Most of the sub-forums have recent posts on them Motley. If we want Ulthuan to survive and prosper we all need to chip in and post stuff, whichever game that happens to be about. I think we have discussions going on in one form or another about at least four fantasy game systems.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#34 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

SpellArcher wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:As a sidenote, the moment I read the AoS four pages of rules This particularly unfortunate article cranked out by J.Johnson - waaay back in 2002 when I had just started my High Elves - came into mind. I recommend reading Mr Johnson's article and then consider how AoS falls in line with it.
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69209
Didn't notice. My bad :?
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#35 Post by SpellArcher »

Thought patterns converging...

:)
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#36 Post by Andrew_uk »

I didn't mean for my questions to imply anything or make you feel you had to defend AoS. I just wanted to understand what it was you liked about it.

Liken it to card games - flux is a very popular game and has its fans, but it's not tactical. Now imagine you love tactical card games and you have invested hundreds into building an awesome card collection that you're proud of, and then the manufacturer of those cards copies the success of Flux and destroys the tactics... Well then people are going to go nuts!!

I'm sure AoS will have its fans and I'm keen to learn who, what they like about it and why?
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#37 Post by Motley »

I didn't mean to come off overly defensive - sorry. I just didn't have much time to write a reply.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#38 Post by Andrew_uk »

Motley wrote:I didn't mean to come off overly defensive - sorry. I just didn't have much time to write a reply.
No need to apologise :) When you get time I'd still be keen to learn what it is you like about AoS
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#39 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

SpellArcher wrote:Thought patterns converging...

:)
Yeah... which kinda says a lot about how easy it is to see through how GW is currently (or still is, imho) seeing the playerbase as.

As for the life of the Forum, I was expecting a far more deserted forum, and will start bugging you lot with a painting log in the next few weeks, once I get my house moving done with.

So expect some mediocre-painted elves with a splash of Dark Angels Marines here and there (I am teaching my nephew how to play 40k so I will accompany him in painting with a few squads of my own here and there so he doesn't paint alone.)
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#40 Post by SpellArcher »

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: So expect some mediocre-painted elves with a splash of Dark Angels Marines here and there (I am teaching my nephew how to play 40k so I will accompany him in painting with a few squads of my own here and there so he doesn't paint alone.)
Excellent!

While the forum has traditionally focused on Warhammer High Elves from Ulthuan, there has always been room for other games/races/settings. While that focus will remain, maybe things will broaden out a little.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#41 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: As for the life of the Forum, I was expecting a far more deserted forum,
Ja, for some of us have been here so long that we wouldn't know how to leave if we wanted to.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#42 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:Ja, for some of us have been here so long that we wouldn't know how to leave if we wanted to.
I can relate. I kind had that feeling when AoS came out and the realization that there would be no more HE "as I knew them" hit me. But I just couldn't sell the army so... here I am :p
SpellArcher wrote:While the forum has traditionally focused on Warhammer High Elves from Ulthuan, there has always been room for other games/races/settings. While that focus will remain, maybe things will broaden out a little.
I will possibly also post some of his Tau, though he really needs to practice (he's too lazy for his own good). In the meantime I'll definitely need to grab some bits, models and take a look at the painting and modelling section :mrgreen:
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#43 Post by theviking »

Andrew_uk wrote:I'm sure AoS will have its fans and I'm keen to learn who, what they like about it and why?
For me AoS is a "tool set" rather than a "rule set." I have a turn order and a basic framework describing how to move and fight with my models, and the rest is at my discretion. I can choose to play a line up and kill everything game staight out of the box. I can play through a narrative scenario with objective based victories and branching results determining the next game(s). I can write a comp pack detailing limits on wounds, warscrolls, keywords, summoning, shooting, victory margins, etc. and host a competitive event for prizes. I could even print cards for a bunch of warscrolls and run a booster draft event. Any kind of game I want to play with my miniatures, I have the tools to make it happen. The sky is the limit and I love the freedom.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#44 Post by Prince of Spires »

Has anyone looked at the campaign books that are being release by GW? How do they impact gameplay?
theviking wrote: Any kind of game I want to play with my miniatures, I have the tools to make it happen.
This sounds like a good approach to the game. Do you find it's different compared to 8th ed? The customizability I mean, not the game.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:So expect some mediocre-painted elves with a splash of Dark Angels Marines here and there (I am teaching my nephew how to play 40k so I will accompany him in painting with a few squads of my own here and there so he doesn't paint alone.)
Sounds great. Looking forward to seeing your plog in the painting and modeling section.

@Aicanor: you feel like having an AOS game on universal battle? I'd like to give the rules a spin as well sometime. It's not the same as a real game. But it serves its purpose when opponents are hard to find...

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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#45 Post by Elithmar »

I'd be open to some UB AoS. I've only played against my brother once so... I can't really dismiss it that quickly.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#46 Post by Aicanor »

@Motley, I didn't mean to start that discussion. I know there are other fora more hostile to new releases and I can understand that, too. As a whole, I do not like it much either. But that is for another topic.
Prince of Spires wrote:@Aicanor: you feel like having an AOS game on universal battle? I'd like to give the rules a spin as well sometime. It's not the same as a real game. But it serves its purpose when opponents are hard to find...
I am not very familiar with UB so that would be a sloe game I fear. But I would definitely like to watch a game first to see if I can manage. :)
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#47 Post by Prince of Spires »

@Elithmar: we can see if we can get a game planned. I'll need to read up on the rules again before we do so. But that shouldn't be a limiting factor with only 4 pages... What timezone are you in?

@Aicanor: No worries about speed. Most of my games (non-AoS ones that is) tend to be slow. I chat too much with my opponents ;). UB isn't too hard to get a hang of. We can give it a spin. I'm not sure UB will actually work for AoS, but there's only 1 way to find out.

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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#48 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

At some point I need to give this UB thing a go. I just haven't wanted to commit that much time all at once to being on the computer. 5 mins several times a day is fine. A couple hours for a game is harder.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#49 Post by Prince of Spires »

It's, in my view, a poor-mans substitute for real games. It does the job of allowing you to play a game if you can't find opponents to play. But real games are still a lot better.

It's also nice if you want to try stuff out. Which is why a lot of tournament players use it I think. If you have something in mind then you can quickly get it on the table without having to buy, assemble and paint all the miniatures you might not even use more then once. Or say you want to start a new army and just want to get the feel for which one you like.

But at the end of the day, I would always chose real games if I could get them.

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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#50 Post by theviking »

Prince of Spires wrote:Do you find it's different compared to 8th ed? The customizability I mean, not the game.
In some ways I think it is. I certainly could have done a variety of things with 8th, but never did. Why not? Was it because the book scenarios railroaded my way of thinking about the game? Or that eight editions of history within the community created expectations of how the game was to be played? Did tournament standards trickle down into club games until everyone played the 20-0 system? I've been mulling over the question and I don't know if I have a good answer.

I think my best guess is that the clean break from traditional warhammer has allowed AoS to be its own system. At the end of 8th ed WFB was effectively what, 20 years old? The rules had a few facelifts over the years but the story remained the same, the mechanics haven't changed much, you could jump several editions and still have a general idea of how to play. 9th edition would likely have been more of the same. AoS is uncharted territory though. It's new for everyone so there are no preconceived notions of what to do, which allows for new growth that wouldn't have surfaced before.

I guess you could say that while both systems are equally customizable, AoS lacks the blinders of history and tradition that limited WFB.



Regarding games on UB, things go a LOT quicker if you can get skype or something going with a voice chat. Less fun for any observers, but typing everything out is what makes it take so long.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#51 Post by SpellArcher »

theviking wrote:At the end of 8th ed WFB was effectively what, 20 years old?
32 and I agree still recognisably the same game. Which has both pros and cons of course.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#52 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

I don't understand that line of thinking at all. Sorry, but I just don't. WFB was always as customizable as you wanted it to be. The game started as a roleplay system for large battles. Early editions always recommended a GM. Even the 20-0 system and ETC and all that is really just an example of how customizable the game was.

It seems odd that many people were willing to take someone else's customization as gospel, but were unwilling to implement changes to suit their own group. But now with AoS they magically can?

I don't doubt that what you describe is truly your experience, and I've heard many others say similar things. I just don't really understand how that happened.

In the end I think it comes back on GW, and the fact that they stopped engaging with players.

If it really helps people get back to using the game the way they want then I guess AoS is a good thing. It's just a shame that it took something so drastic to make that happen.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#53 Post by Prince of Spires »

I think it really depends on when you got started in the hobby. You (Shannar) come across as someone who was there 32 years ago when WH first launched. So you've seen it grow, you had to customize and adapt since there was nothing else and there was no fixed frame of reference. There was no way the game was supposed to be played.

I started somewhere in 7th edition. By that time, especially if you looked online, there was a fixed way the game was being played. People you came across had been playing the game in a certain way for years. So that was what you did, in the same way as that you don't change the rules for a game of chess, even though you theoretically could. And though comp has some influence on the game, it more or less remain the same game; set up a battleline (or, if you're very adventurous one of the other scenario's), play a game out of the box with some rules clarifications, have some victory conditions.

With AoS, we're kind of at square one, where WH was 30 years ago. The game as it is is not good enough for most people to play straight out of the box. And there are no expectations of what the game should do and be. Therefor, people will fill the gaps themselves and make it work in a way they like. I think if you look again in 5 or 10 years time, a default way of playing will have formed and you'll probably see less customization.

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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#54 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Not quite from the start. But at least 26 years, and I think a couple more than that- not that we really knew what we were doing.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#55 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:I think it really depends on when you got started in the hobby. You (Shannar) come across as someone who was there 32 years ago when WH first launched. So you've seen it grow, you had to customize and adapt since there was nothing else and there was no fixed frame of reference. There was no way the game was supposed to be played.
When we were kids we had to eat coal and cook up our own lead figures from saucepans!

:)

Seriously, fair point Rod. Warhammer was billed as The Mass Combat Fantasy Role Playing Game when it launched and it was more free form. I don't know about Shannar but I and (most other early players) had come from RPG's and obviously you had to put work in before the games for those.

What I find fascinating is the sheer desire of players now to write rules. Mo Ashraf and others in the UK have quickly come up with a lot of adjustments to make AoS work as a tournament game. There are two major 9th edition projects. Maybe players in general just expect a substantial change every few years and in the absence of a deep new ruleset from GW, are making their own. About half the tournament scene in England is playing 8th, simply because they like it. But add WM/H and other games into the mix and we may be seeing a real plurality develop.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#56 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

SpellArcher wrote:What I find fascinating is the sheer desire of players now to write rules. Mo Ashraf and others in the UK have quickly come up with a lot of adjustments to make AoS work as a tournament game. There are two major 9th edition projects. Maybe players in general just expect a substantial change every few years and in the absence of a deep new ruleset from GW, are making their own. About half the tournament scene in England is playing 8th, simply because they like it. But add WM/H and other games into the mix and we may be seeing a real plurality develop.
All this shows how much love there actually is for WHFB - if not for the rules, for the models/factions and the fluff. I am glad I am not the only who just finds it... too hard to let go of my poor lil elves.
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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#57 Post by Prince of Spires »

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
SpellArcher wrote:What I find fascinating is the sheer desire of players now to write rules. Mo Ashraf and others in the UK have quickly come up with a lot of adjustments to make AoS work as a tournament game. There are two major 9th edition projects. Maybe players in general just expect a substantial change every few years and in the absence of a deep new ruleset from GW, are making their own. About half the tournament scene in England is playing 8th, simply because they like it. But add WM/H and other games into the mix and we may be seeing a real plurality develop.
All this shows how much love there actually is for WHFB - if not for the rules, for the models/factions and the fluff. I am glad I am not the only who just finds it... too hard to let go of my poor lil elves.
To me it also shows the network effect of the internet. Not many people create something without having other people to share it with. Few people will create an elaborate set of houserules just to play with their one fixed opponent. But if you can share them online then there is a huge audience for them. And then if you can collaborate on them you publish a part, get some feedback, have someone else work on another part. It all builds on each other.

And then there is the adversity systems have of a vacuum. The death of WH left a huge vacuum in terms of fantasy gaming systems. It's human nature to try and fill it.

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Re: How has AoS done in your area?

#58 Post by SpellArcher »

Prince of Spires wrote:And then there is the adversity systems have of a vacuum. The death of WH left a huge vacuum in terms of fantasy gaming systems. It's human nature to try and fill it.
For me, this also shows the expectations modern gamers have. Ie they regard regular rules evolutions as a must, perhaps because that is the only model they have known. But historical secenes for example have quite happily used rulesets practically unchanged for many years. For me a ruleset dies when people stop playing it, which is not the case with Warhammer.
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