Spearman vs Seaguard

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Rebel_Warrior
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Spearman vs Seaguard

#1 Post by Rebel_Warrior »

In what world would someone opt to take Spear over Sea??? Except in the case of glittering host... Again, why would you take archers when we have Shadow Warriors or Maiden Guard?? Am I missing something that is clearly in bold print?
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Loriel
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#2 Post by Loriel »

if you wanna play narrative games or fluffy thematic lists. Or you happend to own bunch of spearmen allready and don't want to invest, and feel strong about being wysiwyg =)
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#3 Post by Rebel_Warrior »

I thought about that and wholeheartedly agree... But... Umm... Where's all the fluff to go off of.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#4 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Rebel_Warrior wrote:I thought about that and wholeheartedly agree... But... Umm... Where's all the fluff to go off of.
I don't think you'll be seeing fluff for any of the "old" range ever again.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#5 Post by jamierk »

Just because it hasn't been said here yet, and so we can get it out of the way: "Why on earth would I take either of those over Phoenix Guard/Swordsmasters/Whitelions..."

(oh because i've painted them already and #narrative)
AD8899
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#6 Post by AD8899 »

Yup, some units are just better choices than others. There's no points, so no real way to deal with that.

The new armies likely will have less of an issue with this kind of thing. It's a legacy problem, but the game isn't designed for High Elves.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#7 Post by Prince of Spires »

Not really anything new, though the goalposts have shifted on what is good and what isn't. Some choices are better then others. That is always the case in a game with as many models as Warhammer (or AoS). Some people only bring the best choices out there. Others just bring what they like or have. Age of Sigmar is not really designed for WAAC games, so why create lists that are?

The new armies will actually also have this problem. It's the nature of the game. Even more so since there aren't any points. Something will always be more killy or tougher then something else. Perfect balance is an illusion.

On the other hand, since there aren't any points there is no (or at least very little) downside to taking sub-optimal choices. Just have both.

As for fluff, just write your own. ;)

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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#8 Post by Loriel »

+1 for Prince of Spires
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#9 Post by KillerK »

AD8899 wrote:It's a legacy problem, but the game isn't designed for High Elves.
Actually this game isn't designed to play at all. It looks like it has been written some time ago, but drooped half way. And after a few years got printed by GW as the new thing.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#10 Post by Aramil Sianontel »

Well there are certain abilities
par example archers have double shots if there are more than 20 in the unit, while shadow warriors have rerolls of 1 if they are in 6" of an enemy
spearmen have :
Abilities
Elven Shield: You can re-roll save rolls of
1 for a unit with Elven Shields. You can
instead re-roll failed save rolls of 1 or 2 for
this unit in the shooting phase.
Militia: High Elf Spearmen make 1 extra
attack if their unit has 20 or more models.
Spear Phalanx: You can re-roll hit rolls
of 1 for a High Elf Spearman if it did not
move in its preceding Movement phase

while LSG have
Elven Shield: You can re-roll save rolls of
1 for a unit with Elven Shields. You can
instead re‑roll failed save rolls of 1 or 2 for
this unit in the shooting phase.
Sea Guard Soldiery: You can re-roll hit
rolls of 1 for a Lothern Sea Guard if its unit
has 20 or more models.
Naval Discipline: If you fail a battleshock
test for this unit whilst a Lothern Sea
Helm from your army is within 16", halve
the number of models that flee (rounding
fractions up).
and of course bows....
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#11 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Not really anything new, though the goalposts have shifted on what is good and what isn't. Some choices are better then others. That is always the case in a game with as many models as Warhammer (or AoS).
This is true to an extent, but it's now rather extreme in that there is no incentive at all to take the lesser choice. You can't save a few points. In fact this is always the situation it was going to take for seaguard to actually work. Numbers matter, but you can give them all the fancy toys you want.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#12 Post by Galharen »

Lsg seem to be much better due to the bows, shooting will be very crucial phase in this game.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#13 Post by Grenic »

I have used both units and Archers in my test games and I think each has a more defined role in AoS than before.

I see LSG being the go to option when you have limited Warscroll slots (smaller games) and need the shooting and melee functionality that this unit provides.

For larger games, I'm leaning toward a single large unit of ~30 Archers plus a 25+ model unit of Spears. The reason is that in larger games I can afford to dedicate a Warscroll slots to more dedicated roles. The Archer's added range over the LSG makes them a better support shooting unit, not to mention the weaker melee stat line of the Archers. The Spears on the other hand, once they are in combat really start to shine as compared to LSG. The LSG do have one inherent advantage over the Spears once within 3" of an opponent model as they spread their attacks equally between shooting and melee, this reduces the pressure to use the unit first to avoid lost attacks due to casualties.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#14 Post by Galharen »

Take into account that lsg can shoot into cc:))
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Not really anything new, though the goalposts have shifted on what is good and what isn't. Some choices are better then others. That is always the case in a game with as many models as Warhammer (or AoS).
This is true to an extent, but it's now rather extreme in that there is no incentive at all to take the lesser choice. You can't save a few points. In fact this is always the situation it was going to take for seaguard to actually work. Numbers matter, but you can give them all the fancy toys you want.
Actually I feel that the reverse is true. In regular warhammer the pressure to take the most optimal choice was a lot bigger because of points values. How often did you see skycutters, spears, seaguard, shadow warriors, swordmasters etc in games of warhammer, unless someone decided to bring a sub-optimal list? Precisely because points were a limiting factor did people bring optimized lists. Now, there is no downside to bringing a skycutter (regardless of how good it is). So, you might as well just put it on the table.

Of course, people will still aim to bring a competitive list. But having one or two choices in there for fun and laughs is not as limiting because you don't have to leave something else at home to do so. In regular WH the choice was 'do I bring a skycutter or 7 extra WL / 6 PG for my bunker unit'. Now the choice simply is do I bring my WL or do I bring my WL and my skycutter.

This of course also highlights one of the shortcomings of the game. But that's a different discussion.

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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#16 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Prince of Spires wrote:
Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Not really anything new, though the goalposts have shifted on what is good and what isn't. Some choices are better then others. That is always the case in a game with as many models as Warhammer (or AoS).
This is true to an extent, but it's now rather extreme in that there is no incentive at all to take the lesser choice. You can't save a few points. In fact this is always the situation it was going to take for seaguard to actually work. Numbers matter, but you can give them all the fancy toys you want.
Actually I feel that the reverse is true. In regular warhammer the pressure to take the most optimal choice was a lot bigger because of points values. How often did you see skycutters, spears, seaguard, shadow warriors, swordmasters etc in games of warhammer, unless someone decided to bring a sub-optimal list? Precisely because points were a limiting factor did people bring optimized lists. Now, there is no downside to bringing a skycutter (regardless of how good it is). So, you might as well just put it on the table.

Of course, people will still aim to bring a competitive list. But having one or two choices in there for fun and laughs is not as limiting because you don't have to leave something else at home to do so. In regular WH the choice was 'do I bring a skycutter or 7 extra WL / 6 PG for my bunker unit'. Now the choice simply is do I bring my WL or do I bring my WL and my skycutter.

This of course also highlights one of the shortcomings of the game. But that's a different discussion.

Rod
That's largely true, except in the situation where you are trying to get/avoid giving up sudden death. Or if you are trying to play one of the attempts that people are putting out to go for balance. But that's also a different discussion.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#17 Post by Andrew_uk »

It makes me laugh. So many times over and over people have started threads saying why on earth would I take seaguard over Spearmen/archers? I guess these things just go in cycles with the different editions.

It used to be an easy argument:

Spearmen vs seaguard - you're effectively paying an extra 44% cost on to a core troop and only gaining a bow.

Archers vs seaguard - you're paying 30% more and sacrificing 36% threat area to gain a spear, shield and light armour

Speaemen want to run in a combat formation, archers want to run in shooting formations.

I can see there is an interesting niche for LSG in that they can be mulipurpose. However 8th saw them suddenly fielded in massive units. By that point (for the same cost) you could get an equally big spearman unit and a small 10 man archer unit. What's more is that remember with 8th even archers can fight in 2 ranks.

Now with AoS you may as well equip your troops to the max if all you're counting is wounds. In that instancs give em bows and spears!!
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#18 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

It makes me laugh. So many times over and over people have started threads saying why on earth would I take seaguard over Spearmen/archers? I guess these things just go in cycles with the different editions.
Actually No. Every other edition (except maybe 4th when they could have halberds if you wanted) the seaguard have been the less optimal choice.

But in AoS they're actually good, but in a way that only matters if you are trying to keep model count down.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#19 Post by jamierk »

I had good utility from my seaguard in 8th ed, and they scored points plenty of times in tournament games where archers or spears may not have, but thats by the by.

I like the mechanic they went for to encourage 'core' troops in AoS, i.e. they get a bonus when above a certain number, but i think the number should be halved. 10 would have been more appropriate as at least they'd keep that bonus for a reasonable length of time in small to medium games.

Balance is a wasted discussion in this game though, so take what you like. I have archers, spears and seaguard painted nicely, all three will see the table in my games from time to time.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#20 Post by Andrew_uk »

Hi Shannar, I think we were basically saying the same thing... That until now Spears and Archers have always been the better option.
Shannar, Sealord wrote:
So many times over and over people have started threads saying why on earth would I take seaguard over Spearmen/archers?
The fact that this thread basically asks the exact opposite question made me laugh. I agree with you that in AoS they're actually pretty good. It underlines how fickle GW game mechanics are.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#21 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Ja, I was just disagreeing with the cycles part, because it's a bit of a first time ever thing haha.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#22 Post by high elf »

If I'm not mistaken you can shoot into ANY close combat even if you are already engaged. I'll take it you haven't played against Dwarf Quarrelers yet? Have fun.

Go with Sea Guard so you can melee fight facing one direction, turn 180 degrees (turning their backs to the people trying to kill them) and fire into combat behind you, then turn back just in time for combat phase where you can go back to killing those in front via melee.

Ah yes, the 'tactics' of AoS.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#23 Post by gromo »

high elf wrote:If I'm not mistaken you can shoot into ANY close combat even if you are already engaged. I'll take it you haven't played against Dwarf Quarrelers yet? Have fun.

Go with Sea Guard so you can melee fight facing one direction, turn 180 degrees (turning their backs to the people trying to kill them) and fire into combat behind you, then turn back just in time for combat phase where you can go back to killing those in front via melee.

Ah yes, the 'tactics' of AoS.
I'm not trying to troll but personally I like the new shooting into combat rules. In fact in a way it's even carried over in 40k. Pistol counts as a close combat weapon. I can absolutely see some elves jumping around firing bows and stabbing orcs in the face. If they decide to shoot into another combat then in a way they're sacrificing themselves for another unit because they should be shooting at their opponent. But that's for YOU the commander to decide : ). I mean c'mon, you need to watch some LOTR.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#24 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

gromo wrote:I'm not trying to troll but personally I like the new shooting into combat rules. In fact in a way it's even carried over in 40k. Pistol counts as a close combat weapon. I can absolutely see some elves jumping around firing bows and stabbing orcs in the face. If they decide to shoot into another combat then in a way they're sacrificing themselves for another unit because they should be shooting at their opponent. But that's for YOU the commander to decide : ). I mean c'mon, you need to watch some LOTR.
If there's a medieval soldier that has a spear and shield available but is consciously choosing to use a bow in its ranged usage while in melee there's definitely something very wrong with that trooper.

Also, 40k pistols are completely different beasts from WHFB bows: There's no reloading time, and they are usually used as a makeshift club afterwards if you can't waste the time to pop a new clip in (standard bolt pistols, for instance, have 6-10 bolt magazines). This ammo issue is usually addressed in FB by pistol-users having a first turn S4 AP attack and then reverting to user strength melee attacks, as I am sure you know.

So... no movie-Legolas shenanigans please. At the most Elves are accurate enough not to shoot their comrades if they are shooting into a melee - and that should be in itself a testament to the insane accuracy of the Elven race.
Also, as the epitome of the elite army, Elves should know what the best weapon is for every situation and use them accordingly.
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Re: Spearman vs Seaguard

#25 Post by cptcosmic »

seaguard over spears any day because of the great IoB set models :)
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