I'm in almost complete agreement here. Balance is simply what everyone noticed right off, but it's not the only thing to think about. The simpler rules honestly make for easier game play. But they took to much out. This game may be minutes to learn but it's only about an hour to master. After the first few games I found it unengaging. It is still a good one to play with the kids though, because it's always fun to participate in them having fun.I actually really like the reduction in options and simplification of a lot of the rules. What I don't like is that I think they went too far. There is no longer the same tactical options in terms of movement, shooting, etc and getting rid of things like flanking has IMHO taken too much away. And lets not forget balance (or the lack of). I'm still up in the air about AoS.
How long will AoS last?
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Re: How long will AoS last?
Re: How long will AoS last?
WFB had to be simplified, but people are still hung up on comparing AoS to WFB. They are not even close to the same game, and the question is whether AoS works as it's own game - does it do what they intended? GW seemed to want a quick game that could be fun for newcomers and let people use all their models. I think they've got what they were after. It's not what most of us veterans wanted, but they weren't trying to please us with this release.
I will miss WFB. I had characters in my Dwarf army that had made it through the changes over 20 years. There's no character in the new heroes, and no way to care about their stories in the world. My lord's rivalry again my friend's warboss has lasted a decade or more, and it's a shame to lose that - but we'll still play 8th from time to time.
The only way to judge this entirely new game, is to judge it next to what GW wanted it to be. My Chaos Dwarfs will be slaughtering their way across a few realms of the new IP and I'll see how I like it. But the loss of character in non-special characters will hurt the experience, for me.
I will miss WFB. I had characters in my Dwarf army that had made it through the changes over 20 years. There's no character in the new heroes, and no way to care about their stories in the world. My lord's rivalry again my friend's warboss has lasted a decade or more, and it's a shame to lose that - but we'll still play 8th from time to time.
The only way to judge this entirely new game, is to judge it next to what GW wanted it to be. My Chaos Dwarfs will be slaughtering their way across a few realms of the new IP and I'll see how I like it. But the loss of character in non-special characters will hurt the experience, for me.
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Re: How long will AoS last?
I agree with your points but I still think too much has been lost in translation. I was all for some simplification (i.e. combined profiles, etc) but the lack on any real movement phase or 'generalship' aspects is a real problem in my mind.AD8899 wrote:WFB had to be simplified, but people are still hung up on comparing AoS to WFB. They are not even close to the same game, and the question is whether AoS works as it's own game - does it do what they intended? GW seemed to want a quick game that could be fun for newcomers and let people use all their models. I think they've got what they were after. It's not what most of us veterans wanted, but they weren't trying to please us with this release.
I will miss WFB. I had characters in my Dwarf army that had made it through the changes over 20 years. There's no character in the new heroes, and no way to care about their stories in the world. My lord's rivalry again my friend's warboss has lasted a decade or more, and it's a shame to lose that - but we'll still play 8th from time to time.
The only way to judge this entirely new game, is to judge it next to what GW wanted it to be. My Chaos Dwarfs will be slaughtering their way across a few realms of the new IP and I'll see how I like it. But the loss of character in non-special characters will hurt the experience, for me.
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Re: How long will AoS last?
A couple things here. Yes change was needed, but there is such a thing as to much change. I hated how much they dumbed down movement for 8th, so AoS movement is a major disappointment.
But my big point of disagreement is this:
But my big point of disagreement is this:
While I understand what you are trying to say, and was even able to get some enjoyment out of the games of AoS I've played, that statement just isn't accurate. The other way to judge this new game is to compare it to what I expect/want out of a game. For me it fall short in many areas under that criteria.The only way to judge this entirely new game, is to judge it next to what GW wanted it to be.
Re: How long will AoS last?
100% agree with the above. That is absolutely how to critique any game in any genre.Shannar, Sealord wrote:But my big point of disagreement is this:While I understand what you are trying to say, and was even able to get some enjoyment out of the games of AoS I've played, that statement just isn't accurate. The other way to judge this new game is to compare it to what I expect/want out of a game. For me it fall short in many areas under that criteria.The only way to judge this entirely new game, is to judge it next to what GW wanted it to be.
If it's a wargame then I expect it to be a reasonable model of warfare. I hope that there is lots of tactical knowhow required for the movement phase and I hope that units behave in a way that closely represents how they should behave and provides them with tactical strengths and weaknesses.
Also agree 90%. 8th Movement was bad; redirecting charges and stuff... There were some things I did like that they added to the movement phase though for instance the Swift reform and Reform mechanics - they provided an extra reason to take musicians and simplified the game without drastically removing from the tactics.Shannar, Sealord wrote:A couple things here. Yes change was needed, but there is such a thing as to much change. I hated how much they dumbed down movement for 8th, so AoS movement is a major disappointment.
For me the biggest problem with 8th was the Combat phase. It felt like they drew up a list of everything that was wrong with 7th, then drew up a list of every way they could possibly adjust it and then implemented everything.
In 7th there was no step up, so if I attack first and kill your front rank then there isn't yet anyone in place to attack me. In 8th stepping up is automatic so no matter how many I kill you will always get your attacks. This is a huge problem because some armies (like ours) actually depended on that as a form of defence. So what did GW do to compensate us for this lost defensive advantage? Increased our killing power with lots of re-rolls. These two advantages work very differently.
Charging in that turn meant that you got to attack first by default... which is great, it tied the movement and combat phases together. Getting the charge was a huge tactical advantage. It was dumbed down in its significance in 8th.
Then to compound matters they made it so that you fight in an additional rank and fight with another additional rank if you pile all your points into one unit. So basically it just becomes a melee - it's a real slog with not much in the way of tactical advantages to be had.
My brother and I actually found a compromise which worked. We replaced it by saying models needed to pass an initiative test to step up. You may think this hurts dwarves the most, but actually under 7th they were always striking last against anyone anyway, so in some ways it actually helps them 100% of the time which is more than can be said for the other armies.
So how to add tactics back in to the phase? Well why not throw in a whole bunch of augments which have a ridiculous casting value but cause auto wins with lots of ridiculous strength attacks or with very high toughess. That's what 8th did and people were praising it but honestly it was dire compared to the highly tactical game that preceded it.
So 8th ed killing power was turned up to max, how did they stop it from getting out of hand and only lasting 1 or 2 rounds? Steadfast!! This rule was brilliant, in theory. It was designed to stop the situation which existed in 7th where 5 cavalry could charge 40 infantry and beat them in combat with ease. Unfortunately it also meant that if 30 elite infantry charged against 40 infantry then they counted as stubborn?
Again - My brother and I changed it to "Steadfast - a unit counts as steadfast if it has more than twice the ranks of their opponent, this can be negated by being engaged in the flank/rear". Still stops 5 knights in their tracks, but not much else. Plus it suddenly puts all the onus back on to the movement phase.
7th was a decent game, it was far from perfect but with well measured changes it could have been approaching that.
Last edited by Andrew_uk on Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bring me my bow of burning gold, bring me my arrows of desire, bring me my spear O' Clouds unfold, bring me my chariot of FIRE!
Check out my rather slow caledor themed painting log and my dragon project... also my faster moving nurgle themed Warriors of Chaos themed painting log
Check out my rather slow caledor themed painting log and my dragon project... also my faster moving nurgle themed Warriors of Chaos themed painting log
Re: How long will AoS last?
I still agree with this, as things stand; but as I said in another thread (I think) I am lucky that I've got a half-finished army that I can convert to the new standard and give it a try. If I don't like it after a few months, I can put them in my display cabinet in the office and it'll have cost me nothing. It actually gives me a reason to finish my Chaos Dwarfs. I am very much on the 'unimpressed' side of things at the moment, but we'll see where I am in 6 months.John Rainbow wrote: I agree with your points but I still think too much has been lost in translation. I was all for some simplification (i.e. combined profiles, etc) but the lack on any real movement phase or 'generalship' aspects is a real problem in my mind.
Re: How long will AoS last?
In terms of whether you personally want to play it, yes. But that wasn't what I meant.Shannar, Sealord wrote:
While I understand what you are trying to say, and was even able to get some enjoyment out of the games of AoS I've played, that statement just isn't accurate. The other way to judge this new game is to compare it to what I expect/want out of a game. For me it fall short in many areas under that criteria.
As an example, take the computer game Halo. The designers wanted a certain type of game and made it, and they clearly made a good example of that type of game. Personally, I can't stand it; but then I want something completely different from a computer game. If Halo had been released as an Elder Scrolls game, I'd have gone bloody mental - as would all other fans of that franchise - but if it was designed to be a Halo-type game then it would still have been a well done project. Indeed, many players who would never play a real Elder Scrolls game might suddenly flock to it and become the new definition of what it means to be an Elder Scrolls player. I'd have been sat there thinking they were all crazy, and probably have played Morrowind until it became stale.
The point is, just because something with the label makes me expect something, doesn't mean something that gets labelled "Warhammer" isn't a well done project because GW have decided to fundamentally change what that means. It might turn out that AoS is just utter crap. Or, it might be Halo - a game I can't stand, but which has mass appeal. The fact that people are calling it "Warhammer" might irk me, but there you go.
I am going to see if I enjoy this entirely new type of game for what it is. I might hate it, but I'd really like it to be good so my Chaos Dwarfs can finally get some paint on them and go enslave the world.
Re: How long will AoS last?
In all honesty, the only thing that really has me displeased is the blatant disregard for my investment in the armies I already have.