Age of Sigmar - Base Game Test - Aelf vs Aelf

[Grenic]

Today I played a basic game using High Elf on High Elf as these were the best understood Warscrolls.

Army #1:
1 x Prince with Enchanted Shield and Totem
1 x Mage
30 x White Lions with Full Command
5 x Reavers
5 x Reavers
2 x RBTs
1 x Great Eagle
Models: 49
Wounds: 76

Army #2:
1 x Mage
1 x Mage
30 x Archers with Full Command
8 x Silver Helms with Full Command
5 x Shadow Warriors with Shadow-Walker
5 x Shadow Warriors with Shadow-Walker
2 x RBTs
1 x Great Eagle
Models: 57
Wounds: 82

Board was simply open terrain 4’ x 6’. No terrain was used for simplicity as this game was focusing more on the basic game turn sequencing.

The game went the full 6 turns with Army #1 winning a minor victory as it was not able to eliminate all of Army #2’s models. Army #1 lost 24 models, while Army #2 lost 54 models. Using wounds, the result was the same, a minor victory, with loses of 44 wounds for Army #1 and 75 for Army #2.

Observations:
I found similar hassles around keeping track of the various units noted by others and having to constantly flip through the Warscroll Compendium was a drag. However, as the file is a pdf, I found that I could make army lists by using the Adobe photo option and then pasteing it into a Word document. This will likely be my preferred method of list construction as the Word document could then be easily printed.

Army #1 pressed it’s initiative advantage on turn 1 using a combination of Reavers and multi-shot RBTs to remove both of Army #2’s RBT models (not the crew). I also found that the Reaver units were amazing, their ability to move 14”, then advance 2D6 before and after shooting, made them almost fly around the board freely. Alternatively, they could also choose to move up, advance, shoot, advance, and then charge a target (likely useful way to take out a character). Given how flexible Reavers appeared to be, I wonder if they are a better cavalry option than the Silver Helms (in this game the Silver Helms spent three turns trying to eliminate a Reaver unit, which was due to poor rolling).

As for the Archers, they performed better than I expected, especially when the sole benefactor of the two mage’s magical augments and the Inspired Presence Command Ability. Their extra range makes it seem that to get the most out of an Archer unit; some form of screen would be needed. Maybe 10+ Phoenix Guard placed such that any combat would be outside of 3”. Also, the lack of a Prince in Army #2 list likely was a bigger issue than expected. The Prince’s re-roll failed hits Command Ability combined with the Archer’s Storm of Arrows ability may have been too much for the White Lions to endure. I will need to test this combination out.

In the game it was played that units that were in combat and had shooting were permitted to do so, including the RBTs. This seemed to be permitted by the rules, but I’m not certain if this was correct. If not, it had a minor effect in the game as both sides trimmed models of each other. If correct, an interesting aspect.

Army #2’s Shadow Warriors proved to be handy and eliminated a Great Eagle and all but one crew and one wound on an RBT. Their initial movement is useful, but needs to be carefully planned as it places them easily within move + charge range. Of course, as you will know who will be going first by the time you move them, you can easily use this ability wisely. In this game they advanced while staying outside of the White Lion’s M+C Range.

As expected, the White Lions were successful in eliminating the Archers, but it did take 2 and half turns. In return the Archers were able to drop 13 White Lion models, mostly due to shooting at range. This unit was a real beast when it was the benefactor of the Prince’s re-roll failed hits Command Ability.

As for movement, models were not required to turn to face their targets. This was used to keep the system simple. While it did make it simple, I’m still leaning toward the requirement to turn to face. This would have the effect of reducing movement a small amount for Aelf/Human models and more drastically for larger models. But then again, I think this was intended and allowed for in the general increase in the movement stat for all the models.

To speed up the game, the same set of dice was used to conduct the hits, wounds, saves, and magical saves. While I usually don’t use this approach, with the high number of attacks it did really work well to speed up the game.

Overall I was pleasantly surprised by the game.

[John Rainbow]

Interesting report - thanks grenic. How did you decide the army composition to start?

[Grenic]

Interesting report - thanks grenic. How did you decide the army composition to start?

Really simple, just took an existing 8th edition army worth about 2200-2300 points and then alternated selecting the units as they were set-up. There was no attempt to balance other than both armies got 2 RBTs.

[Grenic]

Second game:

Army #1:
1 x Prince with Enchanted Shield and Totem
1 x Mage
30 x White Lions with Full Command
5 x Reavers
5 x Reavers
2 x RBTs
2 x Great Eagle
Models: 50
Wounds: 80

Army #2:
1 x Prince with Enchanted Shield and Totem
1 x Mage
30 x Archers with Full Command
5 x Dragon Princes
8 x Silver Helms with Full Command
5 x Shadow Warriors with Shadow-Walker
5 x Shadow Warriors with Shadow-Walker
2 x RBTs
Models: 61
Wounds: 88

Board was 4’ x 6’ with 9 pieces of mysterious terrain.

The outcome this time was a Glorious Victory for Army #1. The main difference with this game was that Army #1’s RBTs survived to turn 5 easily paving the way to eliminate Army #2’s two characters while the White Lions finished off the Archers and its remaining Reaver unit wiped out the remnants of Army #2’s RBT crews.

The Reavers proved to be very deadly and when using the Move, Pre-Shoot Advance, Shoot, Post Shoot Advance, and then Charge strategy against a Shadow Warrior unit positioned about 8” from the board edge. This tactic can be deadly as each Reaver model can focus 3 shooting, 1 spear, and 2 hoof attacks on the same unit all in the same turn. Now if you give the unit the Prince’s re-roll hits Command Ability before it leaves your deployment zone! It’s just scary.

The Dragon Princes were ok, but they likely were not played well. They were sent in to support the Silver helms after they were successfully charged (10” charge) by the White Lions. Likely it would have better for them to have moved and charged the RBT or Reavers even though they would need an 8 (RBT) and 9 (Reavers) charge distance.

The Archers also forgot to provide support fire into a combat to their right flank. Old 8th Edition firing arc rules thinking! Had the Archers fired, they would have likely saved Army #2’s RBT from being eliminated.

The terrain did play a role as a Mystical feature helped it re-roll wound rolls for one of Army #1’s RBTs, which was deadly. Of course the unit also was not able to anything one turn. The Arcane terrain features were used extensively by Army #2 and resulted in a spell being cast thanks to the +1.

Unbinding did not play any role in this game as the wizards were not within 18” of one another.

Retreating was not attempted in this game, but likely should have by Army #2 as it would have allowed them to extradite the Dragon Princes from a combat they could not really win. While they would have had to endure shooting attacks if they left, this was going to occur even if they stayed in the combat. The best part was that they could “avoid” the 18 or so White Lion attacks.

Overall another interesting game and the turn speed are still improving.

[Chracian]

Is there any reason not to upgrade any of the following, assuming the options are available:
All units to have standard/musician/champion.
All heroes to have a horse.
Any mage on foot should be Teclis.
Phoenix banner on a prince.
Any other mounted prince to be Tyrion.

[aquietfrog]

I think you misread the reavers' rule. What i read is, they can move 2D6 before OR after shooting, not AND.

With regards to duplicate named characters, of course there are no written rules against it, but I personally find it would be bad taste. Also i think you get the most outof teclis if you have every other sort of highborn wizard to increase his spell choices. Also being mounted means more spacefor enemies to pile into it.

[Grenic]

I think you misread the reavers' rule. What i read is, they can move 2D6 before OR after shooting, not AND.

Excellent catch, my mistake. Small font on my printed copy...

[Chracian]

With regards to duplicate named characters, of course there are no written rules against it, but I personally find it would be bad taste. Also i think you get the most outof teclis if you have every other sort of highborn wizard to increase his spell choices. Also being mounted means more spacefor enemies to pile into it.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not advocating taking multiple special characters, just that for some of them (e.g. Teclis) there's no reason not too - provided you have the correct model of course!

[Grenic]

Third game:

Army #1:
1 x Prince with Enchanted Shield and Totem
1 x Mage
1 x Loremaster of Hoeth
15 x Phoenix Guard with Full Command
15 x Sword Masters with Full Command
25 x Spears with Full Command
25 x Lothern Sea Guard
5 x Reavers
5 x Reavers
2 x RBTs
Models: 99
Wounds: 127
Shooting Models: 39

Army #2:
1 x Prince with Enchanted Shield and Totem
1 x Mage
1 x Mage
30 x Archers with Full Command
15 x White Lions with Full Command
15 x White Lions with Full Command
5 x Dragon Princes
9 x Silver Helms with Full Command
15 x Shadow Warriors with Shadow-Walker
2 x Great Eagles
2 x RBTs
Models: 100
Wounds: 138
Shooting Models: 47

Board was 3’ 8” x 6’ with 7 pieces of mysterious terrain.

Turn Initiative:
Army #1 Turns: 1, 3, 4, and 5
Army #2 Turn: 2

The outcome this time was a Glorious Victory for Army #2 on bottom of turn 5.

In this game the mysterious landscape played a large role in Army #2’s win as there was one mystical feature within the deployment zone and a second one about 4” outside of the deployment zone. During the deployment phase an RBT, Mage, and both Great Eagles were placed within this wood. Additionally, the Shadow Warriors were placed such that they could advance into the second mystical feature. While the RBT spent turns 1 and 2 befuddled, the other units all passed and were able to re-roll all failed To Wound rolls. This proved to be quite decisive as the Shadow Warriors, which did not have any enemy unit within 6” while wihtin the feature, also gained the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls from thier bows. The Archers on the other hand were the benefactor of the Prince’s Command Ability, which also granting them the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls. Overall, Army #2 had 45 re-roll To Hits and To Wound shots every turn.

Will post additional observations about this game.

[aquietfrog]

Are the reavers still as effective as before?

In my own plays, I found that being able to move after shooting was generally better than getting that extra move before shooting.

[Grenic]

Are the reavers still as effective as before?

In my own plays, I found that being able to move after shooting was generally better than getting that extra move before shooting.

They were still ok, but moving after shooting was the most frequently used option. The ability to advance use your shooting attack, see how effective it was, and if good advance so you can charge the same target later in the same turn was too good to pass up.

[aquietfrog]

I haven't thought of that one. In effect, reavers can possibly move 14", shoot, then advance 2D6, THEN charge another 2D6? So a possible maximum of 38" for a possible first turn charge gamble? Though on average, it would be something more like a 28" charge?

[cptcosmic]

yeah, reavers are great under the new rules.
alot of shooting
alot of movement
park them infront of the enemy to limit their advance

their downside is the lack of rend though, limiting their effectiveness against targets with good saves.

[Grenic]

I haven't thought of that one. In effect, reavers can possibly move 14", shoot, then advance 2D6, THEN charge another 2D6? So a possible maximum of 38" for a possible first turn charge gamble? Though on average, it would be something more like a 28" charge?

Yes, that distance on average would be right. However, I found that this ability is more valuable if you move second turn 1 as there will be more targets within range. Of course they need to survive your opponent's first turn shooting. Now if you also have Shadow Warriors, you can influence where the advancing units have to be and place the Reavers appropriately.

The optimum tactic is to place the Reaver unit within the Command Ability if the High Elf Prince General. With this ability they re-roll failed hits. Then advance and shoot. See how it goes and either advance and charge, or retrograde.

[Grenic]

The third game did degrade in to a large scrum in the centre of the board. However, it also demonstrated the tremendous freedom fast moving units had that were initially deployed on the left and right flanks. Once the scrum started, these types of units from both sides basically had freedom to move as they pleased and focused on removal of the war machines.

Army #1 missed a real opportunity to save one Reaver unit by using a retreat maneuver from a crewless RTB. Had they done this, pursuing Silver Helms would not have been able to successfully charge them. This whole concept of “tactical retreats” needs to be really understood as I think that it is a big aspect of this game that we have not had in the most recent editions of GW fantasy gaming.

Army #1’s Spears were really deadly once they were in combat as it was getting 2 attacks and re-rolling To Hit results of 1 (as the Pile In action is not done during the Movement Phase).

Army #1’s Sea Guard was the focus of the opponent’s Shadow Warriors as it was their only target. However, we forgot to re-roll saves of 1 & 2, so a further example that players really need to know their Warscrolls they are fielding.

Army #2’s Great Eagle's “Soar Away” rule is quite useful. This unit can move forward 16”, charge 2D6” (get 6 attacks), and then Soar Away 3D6”. This makes them quite useful at striking a unit and then moving further behind the enemy’s battle line. They also seemed to be quite useful as paired Warscroll, however, they may be ad good if put together as a unit of 2 models. I will need to test this out.

As others have reported, the RBTs performed really well. However, they are really easy to render useless by de-crewing them or deleting the RBT model itself. So far the rule of thumb has been if the RBT is in the open, shoot the RBT model itself as the Crew gets a Cover benefit. When the RBT is in cover, then shoot the Crew as Cover doesn’t stack (at least that was how it was played as the rules didn’t indicate that stacking was present). When in combat, you always drop the crew as you only need two unsaved wounds.

Overall, I found this larger game to have far more tactical decisions than the smaller games. This was driven by two factors, the free moving flank units and the need to focus on which unit in Combat you should use. These two factors meant that for the player whose turn it is had more opportunities to make tactical mistakes. While the other player did have less things to focus on, once multi-unit combats began, the number of tactical decisions increases dramatically.

Overall this was another interesting game where I leaned more tactical aspects that Games Workshop has built into the AoS rules and Warscrolls.

[aquietfrog]

The way I read the loremaster's hand of glory spell, only one particular model gets the reroll. Therefore that spell is wasted on ordinary units.

[Grenic]

The way I read the loremaster's hand of glory spell, only one particular model gets the reroll. Therefore that spell is wasted on ordinary units.

Yes, you are correct. I see in my notes that it was also noted, just missed my chicken scratched side note

Fixed my post.

[aquietfrog]

I'm pretty disappointed with the loremaster's spell. One combo I can think of is placing a lothern sea helm next to a bolt thrower, then having the loremaster cast hand of glory on the bolt thrower, so a single bolt thrower can have rerolls, and will be wounding on 2+.

[Ladril Caledor]

I'm pretty disappointed with the loremaster's spell. One combo I can think of is placing a lothern sea helm next to a bolt thrower, then having the loremaster cast hand of glory on the bolt thrower, so a single bolt thrower can have rerolls, and will be wounding on 2+.

It's pretty good if you cast it on a model with loads of attacks, like a Prince on Dragon.

[Grenic]

Fourth Test Game:

Composition:
(1) Pool List must have a max of 9 and no less than 6 Warscrolls (all from one Grand Alliance) composed of not more than 45 models and/or 68 wounds
(2) You may not deploy more than 35 models or 50 wounds, whichever occurs first.
(3) You must deploy at least 2 Warscrolls and 20 models before you may end your deployment.

As there were no models that could be added during the game, the only additional rule was:
Look Out Sir: Each time a single model Warscroll with the keyword “Hero”, but not “Monster”, takes a wound or mortal wound from a shooting attack and is within 3” of a unit composed of at least 5 models when the attack was struck on that Warscroll, roll a dice for each wound or mortal wound. On a roll of 4+ that wound or mortal wound is taken by the unit instead unless the unit has been eliminated by a prior Look Out Sir roll.

Army #1 Pool List:
- Prince on Dragon with Dragon Lance and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 14)
- Prince on Elven Purebred with Totem, Starblade and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Mage on Elven Purebred (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Dragon Princes with Full Command (Models: 6, Wounds: 12)
- Silver helms with Full Command (Models: 6, Wounds: 12)
- Repeater Bolt Thrower (Models: 3, Wounds: 6)
- Repeater Bolt Thrower (Models: 3, Wounds: 6)
- Great Eagle (Models: 1, Wounds: 4)
- Great Eagle (Models: 1, Wounds: 4)
- Total: Models: 23, Wounds: 68

Army #2 Pool List:
- Prince with Totem, Starblade and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Mage (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Reaver with Harbinger (Models: 5, Wounds: 10)
- Reaver with Harbinger (Models: 5, Wounds: 10)
- Archers with Full Command (Models: 20, Wounds: 20)
- Hellblaster Volley Gun (Models: 4, Wounds: 7)
- Empire Cannon (Models: 4, Wounds: 7)
- Totals: Models: 40, Wounds: 64

Army #1 decided not to deploy the Silver Helms and one RBT. Army #2 did not deploy the Volley Gun and one unit of Reavers.

Army #2 finished deployment first and went first turn #1. It also won the initiative rolls for the other three turns.

Army #1 won a Glorious Victory on Turn 4. Army #1 only lost the RBT crew, 2 Dragon Princes, and the Prince on Elven Purebred. The dragon had taken 9 wounds.

Observations:
Given the speed of Army #1’s Warscrolls, the decision to deploy the Archers was likely a mistake as this unit was just not able to keep out of combat long enough. Had the Volley Gun and second Reaver unit been deployed, Army #1’s units would have had to spend far more time chasing down these two units as compared to the stationary Archer unit. The longer range of the Volley Gun as compared to the Archers (26” vs. 20”) also meant that it could have added it’s shooting to the massed shooting delivered by the Reavers on turn 1.

The dragon model was deadly as it essentially removed the Archer unit in 2 player turns. The really big aspect for this model was its 3 jaws attacks, especially when the model benefited from the other Prince’s Command Ability to re-roll missed To Hit results. After seeing how effective the dragon model was and how many attacks needed to focused on the model to score 9 wounds, I really can’t see that this model needs a Look Out Sir roll as some have proposed.

The Empire Cannon scored only 6 wounds total in the game as it was de-crewed by a dual charge from the Great Eagles. As only two units in Army #1 had more than a single model, the cannon’s grapeshot option was rendered useless.

Overall, I do believe that had the Volley Gun and second Reaver unit been deployed instead of the Archers, the game result would have been quite different. While I’m not sure that Army #2 would have won, it likely would have been closer.

[Grenic]

Test Game 4 Composition:
(1) Pool List must have a max of 9 and no less than 6 Warscrolls (all from one Grand Alliance) composed of not more than 45 models and/or 68 wounds
(2) You may not deploy more than 35 models or 50 wounds, whichever occurs first.
(3) You must deploy at least 2 Warscrolls and 20 models before you may end your deployment.

This was the first game that used the Pool List Comp Approach. Prior to this game, the lists had been essentially just picked (with balance in mind) or lists used in 7th or 8th Editions.

Observations about the Army Comp:
Having to include at least 6 Warscrolls in the Pool List meant that on average each Warscroll could not contain more than 5 5/6 deployed models and/or 8 1/3 deployed wounds. This made large single units very difficult to construct as single model Warscrolls all (so far at least) have multiple wounds. For a small game I think this outcome is not a bad thing.

With the Pool List being ~30% to ~40% larger than what could be deployed, care needs to be taken to make each additional Warscroll(s) above the minimum should be essentially paired with another Warscroll(s). This would allow easy substitution during deployment. For example in Army #1’s list the following:
- Silver Helms and Dragon Princes as both had identical model and wound counts
- Silver Helms also could be paired with 2 RBT Warscrolls, however, here the wounds balanced while the model counts did not.

The cap on deployable models was not a big issue as neither Pool List met it. However, both Pool Lists did exceed the deployable wounds cap forcing decisions to be made at the table as to which unit(s) not to use in the game. As noted in the earlier post, this aspect played a role in the outcome.

The Pool List approach did seem to provide ample opportunity for the players to better balance what they used in the game. However, care needs to be taken as an improper selection order could limit future selection options. In the game this occurred as the Archers were placed first limiting future placement options. It appeared that placement of “must have” units should occur first followed by Warscrolls that could be swapped out (as in the case of the Archers).

My Thoughts
While this Army Comp is the one I have been suggesting, I was very happy with the added dynamics it placed both during the development of the Pool Lists and again during deployment. The second aspect is the one that I think really needs to be supported as this hands more in game options to players that know their models and what other models do. Once could argue that this approach actually helps reduce the rock-paper-scissors aspect of prior editions.

I hope others give the Comp a try (Link: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 34#p905334) and let me know how it turns out.

[Grenic]

Test Game #5
Composition for Test Game:
(1) Pool List must have a max of 9 and no less than 6 Warscrolls (all from one Grand Alliance) composed of not more than 45 models and/or 68 wounds
(2) You may not deploy more than 35 models or 50 wounds, whichever occurs first.
(3) You must deploy at least 2 Warscrolls and 20 models before you may end your deployment.

As there were no models that could be added during the game, the only additional rule was:
Look Out Sir: Each time a single model Warscroll with the keyword “Hero”, but not “Monster”, takes a wound or mortal wound from a shooting attack and is within 3” of a unit composed of at least 5 models when the attack was struck on that Warscroll, roll a dice for each wound or mortal wound. On a roll of 4+ that wound or mortal wound is taken by the unit instead unless the unit has been eliminated by a prior Look Out Sir roll.

Army #1 Pool List – Monster:
- Prince on Dragon with Dragon Lance and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 14)
- Prince on Dragon with Dragon Lance and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 14)
- Prince on Griffon with Starwood Lance and Starblade (Models: 1, Wounds: 10)
- Prince on Elven Purebred with Totem, Starblade and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Mage on Elven Purebred (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Dragon Princes with Full Command (Models: 6, Wounds: 12)
- Repeater Bolt Thrower (Models: 3, Wounds: 6)
- Total: Models: 14, Wounds: 66

Army #2 Pool List - Shooting Heavy:
- Prince with Totem, Starblade and Enchanted Shield (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Mage (Models: 1, Wounds: 5)
- Reaver with Harbinger (Models: 10, Wounds: 20)
- Repeater Bolt Thrower (Models: 3, Wounds: 6)
- Repeater Bolt Thrower (Models: 3, Wounds: 6)
- Repeater Bolt Thrower (Models: 3, Wounds: 6)
- Hellblaster Volley Gun (Models: 4, Wounds: 7)
- Empire Cannon (Models: 4, Wounds: 7)
- Great Eagle (Models: 1, Wounds: 4)
- Totals: Models: 30, Wounds: 66

In this game Army #2 made only 4 deployments: Cannon, Hellbalster, Reavers, and Great Eagle. This allowed the player to end deployment and take the initiative on turn1. In this game Army #2 went second. Army #1 deployed only the 5 Hero Warscrolls. Army #2’s general was the Harbinger, making the entire army immune to Battleshock.

Army #1 won a Glorious Victory on Turn 4. Army #1 lost one dragon and the mage. The Prince on Purebred was down to one wound.

Observations about the Game:
Deferral of the turn #1 initiative was a big gamble that did not pan out on the first attempt. However, Army #2 did win the initiative on turn 3 and 4. The back-to-back turn resulted in the elimination of the dragon.

Observations about the Army Comp:
This game was intended to push the Comp and it did result in a game that was clearly lopsided. Given that this list only had three monsters, two of which were dragons, we should expect that the Dragon Host will be banned in most games either by limits in Monsters or directly.

My Thoughts
The Comp as it is set now needs to contemplate some way to limit a Monster list as tested. As I want to try to avoid using limits based on Keywords and since all Hero and Monsters (up to this point at least) are single model Warscrolls, adding a limit around single model Warscrolls might be the way to go. This could be worded along the lines of “…have deployed one or more multi-model Warscrolls for each Warscroll that contains a single model.”

This approach would require a player to deploy a multi-model Warscroll for each single model Warscroll.

Revised Composition for Test Game:
(1) Pool List must have a max of 9 and no less than 6 Warscrolls (all from one Grand Alliance) composed of not more than 45 models and/or 68 wounds.
(2) Your deployed army must not have more than 35 models or 50 wounds and have deployed one or more multi-model Warscrolls for each Warscroll that contains a single model.
(3) You must deploy at least 2 Warscrolls and 20 models before you may end your deployment.

Under this approach, Army #1 would not have been possible and would have forced the player to convert three of the five drops into multi-model Warscrolls. While these could have been war machines, so far these models are not as capable as Hero/Monster Warscrolls.

Thoughts?