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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:59 am 
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Rhetor militaris
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Thought it would be a good idea to get a separate thread going for game results, thoughts, and suggestions. If you post something here, try to touch on the same types of information (game, thoughts, suggestions) and let's try to keep the whining / winging to a minimum. This is meant to be exploratory and explanatory.

I'll start. Just finished my first game of AoS. I'll give a summary before some initial feelings/thoughts and then end with suggestions.

I: The Game

Armies were Lizardmen (commanded by me) against Wood Elves. We had agreed to be gentle in our unit selection, taking some previous core units, and no monsters or special characters. We also decided to balance our selections based on wounds, and agreed that we'd play a maximum of 40 wounds per side, rather than 40 models per side. The lists were as follows

Lizardmen
Slann
10 Saurus Warriors, Clubs, Shields, Standard, Drums, Champion
1 Skink Patrol
... 1 Skink Priest, Priestly Trappings
... 2 x 5 Chameleon Skinks
... 3 Terradon Riders, Sunleech Bolas, Master of the Sky, Skyblade

Wood Elves:
1 Branchwraith
1 Shadow Dancer
10 Glade Guard, Standard, Musician, Champion
5 Wild Riders
10 Waywatchers, Champion
1 Sylvan Wood

We generated terrain as the rules suggested, which was reasonable (although rolling to see exactly what benefit the terrain gave slowed the game down a little, and didn't really have much effect). My opponent won the roll off, and deployed most of his units in trees, except his Wild Riders which ended up on the flank. I deployed my Saurus and Skink on the right behind some ruins, which I planned to help shield me from the shooting. My Slann I put on the other flank, behind a hill. The rest of my army elected to ambush per the Skink Patrol / Chameleon rules.

He started by using the Inspiring Presence Command Ability on his Wild Riders, and then used his Shadow Dancer's magic to double their movement (which I couldn't stop as I wasn't 18" away), and they flew 24" up the flank, right in front of my Slann. After a short run, he then charged in (having moved 30+ inches that turn) and inflicted 3 wounds, and I returned 1. He also tried to summon some Dryads with his Branchwraith but failed. After minimal shooting, I took my Slann's Battleshock and passed.

My turn 1 saw me bring both my skink units up by the Wild Riders, and the Terradons on the right side across from his Glade Guard. I then used my Slann to summon an Oldblood on Cold One and another unit of 5 Chameleons, before buffing himself with Mystic Shield. My Priest used his ability to allow for rerolled run, charge, and armor saves and I pushed up against the Glade Guard, which the Terradons killed three of. The Wild Riders died to all the blowpipe shots from the skinks.

Turns 2-4 saw us each summoning multiple units a turn and using them to grab board control from each other. I focused on Chameleon Skinks and Saurus while my opponent summoned Dryads and War Hounds. While my units could not move or charge after being summoned, the Dryads could, which made for some scary moments when the Shadow Dancer would double their already-high movement of 7. For my part, I used the Chamelon's to great effect, having them pop up in annoying places before they disappeared the following turn. Whenever a unit or two would get into combat, the skinks would clear them off before I suffered any real damage.

Terradons, the original 10 Saurus, Waywatchers and Glade Guard all perished by this time along with a few skinks from each unit, but each of us were replacing them with plenty of new units.

Turns 5-6 saw me gaining the upper hand thanks to the skinks, but in the summoning war, neither of us could really break through. Turn 5 saw me roll and 11 for the Saurus summoning, which gave me 20 more warriors, but there really wasn't a good place to put them, with all the models on the board. By the end of turn 6, I had over 60 models left, while my opponent had 30. Both of our casters were safely behind our lines, and unable to be targeted (or get in range of each other). It ended as a minor victory for me.

II: Observations

- The game is fun! It's not traditional fantasy, but it's not 40k either. In fact, I'd say it's the better parts of both, leaning more heavily to Fantasy.

- Strategy is still present in droves. It's different, and it's not 40k strategy either. It's new, and that's exciting, for me anyway.

- There's a lot to keep track of, and additional markers are useful. While the game itself is really simple and easy to play, each unit has 1-2 things to keep track of, including spells, command abilities, innate abilities, and terrain. I see counters being an integral part of gameplay.

- Movement is really simple and intuitive. Controlling board space is key, even more so than traditional Fantasy, and utilizing the 3" rule can really help you achieve a tactical edge.

- None of our combats lasted less than two rounds. Even when my Oldblood on Cold one charged 5 dogs, he couldn't manage to clear them off, and we stuck for an extra round. Using your General's Inspiring Presence in conjunction with key units is an incredibly useful way of slowing down an enemy advance. This is also a really good chance in my opinion, and Battleshock is much better than Fantasy LD tests, where a single good/bad roll can end an entire game early.

- Shooting into combat is very strong. When we get into recommendations, this is something I highly suggest regulating.

- Unit balance is fairly good (at least with what we tested), and after playing, it seems there are reasons to take most units. I also looked at the other armies, and nothing stuck out as being different from the balance we experienced in our game. I'm sure players will find exceptions, but I was pleasantly surprised. This will likely make the meta game fluid, at least for a little while, as the units generally follow a rock-paper-scissors system, both by type (melee, ranged; cav, foot, monster; character, unit; etc.) . This assumes some sort of generally-acceptable army composition and not something like 20 Bloodthirsters.

- Balancing armies based on wound-count versus model-count is a much more sensible way of army section in my opinion. It also helps reinforce the rock-paper-scissors nature of units. This'll lead into recommendations later.

- Summoning units is very powerful, perhaps too much so in the case of LIzardmen (I was gentle in my summoning, and didn't choose anything too powerful. This could have been quite deadly).

- Bravery is really important, and Lizardmen having a universal 10 is potentially unbalanced. I never once lost a single model from fleeing, while my opponent lost several. It's like playing traditional Lizardmen they're close to unbreakable and you can summon more.

- Characters being on their own was both fun and dangerous. These pieces felt a lot more important to the overall game because of their relative power (buffing and summoning in our cases) and you couldn't just stick them in a big unit and walk a powerhouse across the table. I like this change.

- The victory conditions are actually pretty good, and will allow for underdog victories. Although I had summoned more units each turn, my opponent had killed a lot, which made it pretty even until turns 5-6, even though I had more models on the board at the end. Not sure how this will work with other armies.

- Length of game was about the same as a normal WH game, including us taking a while to learn the rules and our units. Towards then end (when we had the most models on the board) our turns were down to 10-20 minutes. I expect this could become even faster with practice.

- Using our game as a base, I think one with 100-150 wounds on each side would take about as long as a current WH game (again assuming existing Fantasy army selection guidelines). However, I think the sweat-spot for casual games will probably be between 50-75 models/wounds per side, and should play similarly to 1500 points of 40k.

III: Recommendations

I want to preface this by saying I still think there is more coming. There are sentences in the rules / armies that alludes to other rules, as well as parts that aren't covered at all (the biggest example here is the seven planes, which are suppose to have an impact on rules, but aren't given any further mention). That being said, in its current state, the game needs some house-rule balancing. I fully expect for a comp system to arise and the simplicity of the core rules combined with the variety of units should make for a very enjoyable game.

First, I recommend using wound values a balance unit some sort of comp comes out. This allows for a lot of flexibility but doesn't skew things too much away from characters and monsters. Use the same wound-count when determining victory as well. This also makes the balance between monsters, war machines and troops fairly good, 1 monster = 2/3 war machines (including machine and crew wounds) = 7 elites / cavalry = 14 footmen. Given what we observed in our game, this is a good place to start from in terms of balance.

Second, shooting into combat is a problem. Because units didn't die in a single combat, being able to tarpit and then fire volleys of arrows into said unit will make it hard for non-ranged armies to finish off units. Meanwhile, those with powerful ranged options should have no trouble tar-pitting and cleaning up units at will. Obviously, this is the first game and I'll have to get some games against Ogres and Chaos to see if they could potentially break combats in a single round, but my gut feeling is this isn't the case. With melee-weapon range being so short, you won't be able to get all your models into combat in larger games (even this game we sometimes had trouble with terrain / other units), which means if you take units of 20-30 in roughly square formations, you should be guaranteed to last a round or two.

Third, there's a lot of "well, the rules don't say I can't." I think this may become my signature. If you're playing with friends, this shouldn't be an issue, and if logic prevails so too should games. However, in the absence of common sense, which sometimes seems a rarity among Warhammer players, whatever comp system / addendum are used to govern play will need to address many of these cases.

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts after my first game. Comments, concerns? Anyone else had a game yet?

Axiem


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:25 am 
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We got two small games in today. I'm not going to go to great length on them, because I can't take it seriously enough.

1. The game is good light hearted fun, I enjoyed it more than I expected to.
1a. Balance is what you make it. Both on the unit and army level.
2. I fully agree on there being a lot to keep track of. Perhaps to much to be honest. I'm glad we kept the games to a small size, as we would have had to cut back on the beverages if there was more record keeping to do.
3. I can't agree that strategy is present in "droves". But it is there. The 3" rule is probably the most important part of it.
4. Shooting is nuts, but hey- that speeds the game up. Being able to attack with shooting and melee seems a bit off though.
5. Movement is simple, and good for a game like this. Way to simple if you like WFB or are into historicals of "comparable" time periods. It's right for what this game is though.

I really really hope that people leave this game alone. Don't try to make it into something it's not. As soon as you start complicating things it will lose many of the positive things it has going for it. I know someone is going to muck it up like they did warhammer, but it's nice to hold out hope that doesn't happen for now. The reason that it works is that you can just relax about winning/losing and just play. The minute you try to make it competitive there will be tons of "fixes" to make as common sense will be out the window. All taht will muck it up and kill the simplicity/loose attitude- which is the biggest asset.

The "most important rule" should be "Ah F#$& it, who cares? It'll be fun like this". There will always be a bigger luck factor in this than in WFB, so I don't see why anyone would play this competitively over that. And while it was fun, I own other games that are more fun. The best use I see for this playing some games with the kids to get them started in the warhammer world (they get to play tomorrow) or if the models are already out for a game of warhammer and you've got a bit of time to kill.

I really did enjoy it, but if I'd gone into it thinking it was going to be my warhammer replacement I would not have. It's just not even remotely the same thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Axiem wrote:
III: Recommendations

I want to preface this by saying I still think there is more coming. There are sentences in the rules / armies that alludes to other rules, as well as parts that aren't covered at all (the biggest example here is the seven planes, which are suppose to have an impact on rules, but aren't given any further mention). That being said, in its current state, the game needs some house-rule balancing. I fully expect for a comp system to arise and the simplicity of the core rules combined with the variety of units should make for a very enjoyable game.

First, I recommend using wound values a balance unit some sort of comp comes out. This allows for a lot of flexibility but doesn't skew things too much away from characters and monsters. Use the same wound-count when determining victory as well. This also makes the balance between monsters, war machines and troops fairly good, 1 monster = 2/3 war machines (including machine and crew wounds) = 7 elites / cavalry = 14 footmen. Given what we observed in our game, this is a good place to start from in terms of balance.

Second, shooting into combat is a problem. Because units didn't die in a single combat, being able to tarpit and then fire volleys of arrows into said unit will make it hard for non-ranged armies to finish off units. Meanwhile, those with powerful ranged options should have no trouble tar-pitting and cleaning up units at will. Obviously, this is the first game and I'll have to get some games against Ogres and Chaos to see if they could potentially break combats in a single round, but my gut feeling is this isn't the case. With melee-weapon range being so short, you won't be able to get all your models into combat in larger games (even this game we sometimes had trouble with terrain / other units), which means if you take units of 20-30 in roughly square formations, you should be guaranteed to last a round or two.

Third, there's a lot of "well, the rules don't say I can't." I think this may become my signature. If you're playing with friends, this shouldn't be an issue, and if logic prevails so too should games. However, in the absence of common sense, which sometimes seems a rarity among Warhammer players, whatever comp system / addendum are used to govern play will need to address many of these cases.

I agree with your first comment, however, we will likely need to consider an army comp of something like "You must deploy at least 5 units and not less than 50 models before being able to "pass". In addition you may not deploy more than 100 models or 150 wounds, whichever comes first." The upper and lower limits can be adjusted as required, but such an approach should help aliviate certain abuses.

Relative to the second item, I really think summoning is going to be the bigger “balance” problem than shooting. In fact, I see shooting as the built-in balancing factor to summoning. Essentially, armies that don’t have summoning ability will need to bring shooting to remove the summoning models as quickly as possible. Clearly, the longer these models remain on the board the greater the impact of being able to summon becomes. While all summoned units will automatically go to your casualty count, their combat potential increases the probability that your opponent will secure a Glorious Victory or will be able to steal away a Glorious Victory from you as they summon a unit on the last turn.

Yeah, the rules are focused to more of a discuss as you go approach and not a WAAC environment, which will cause headaches for TOs.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:31 pm 
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We played our first game with Loriel yesterday and you can read about our impressions and observations here:

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69112

To summarize, I got a confirmation that it is not a game designed for competitive play. It is more for RPG style of entertainment. Even though it would be nice to have a simple set of rules that do not require so much deliberation on how to actually play, even from the miniature company.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:07 pm 
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Ok so managed to get some games in today.

My first and overall impression is that the game is unfinished and frankly a bit rushed out, I would expect there to be quite a lot more to come. GW staff very much emphasised that it's a living rulebook, they don't know if that means the 4 page pamphlet will be expanded on or not but expect there to be more to come in some form or another. I get the impression new rules will be tied in with story progression as with the end times books, as sigmar's army progresses through the 9 worlds new armies and rules.

Even they admitted it is currently too simple and the no points thing is a real issue for pick up games in store, they seemed ok with using wounds as points for the time being. Another book is on the way in a couple of weeks, they don't know what's in it though. Personally I'd imagine it will be the first of whatever form 'army books' will take for the space marines, having seen the models on display at warhammer world I'm guessing it will be something for them. Models are very detailed, but I don't really like the aesthetic they've gone with, I hope the other new factions will be less high fantasy.


Observations:


- The game was fun, although whether this will last beyond the novelty of something new remains to be seen. There wasn't anything in the game that felt particularly exciting or rewarding in the way getting off a key charge (move then charge makes getting charges of not so hard) or a key spell was.

- I actually think a lot of players will keep using movement trays, they were in store (even gw staff were), they make it a lot easier and less messy. If you don't like a cluttered table, this isn't the game for you.

- Base size doesn't just matter, it's a big deal, particularly because of the melee weapons having a range. The pile in mechanic and then having to measure weapon ranges is time consuming, again it will make scaling up an issue. At first I thought this was really designed for small units, but loads of the warscrolls hugely reward larger units. Also once you're in combat, while you can retreat, it isn't generally worth it (imo, I mean what's the point? you can shoot in combat anyway), so having enough bodies to slog through seemed important.

- There's a lot to remember in terms of the abilities and the alternative attack system across various combats, while it adds a layer of tactical play, doesn't really reflect anything in-world wise and isn't intuitive; it's a mechanic for the sake of having a mechanic. With the shooting phase being linear it can get a little confusing. I really doubt it's ability to scale up.

- Magic is very underwhelming, doesn't do very much tbh. Surely this will be expanded upon. I didn't see any summons so I can't comment on them, but it seems a hot topic amongst those who have.

- The priority system doesn't really add anything to the game and makes movement essentially impossible to plan. It works in Lotr due to phases being alternate and the might mechanic and the fact that combats break off at the end of the phase in lotr. In this it can feel just like a spanner in the works, I'd be much happier to play this with just a normal turn order.

- Tactics in game revolve around command ability combos basically, with spells so limited it's really your only force multiplier mechanic.

- First turn is huge, like even bigger than before.

- Shooting into combat when you're in that combat just feels dumb.

- Combat isn't really that effective, things don't die fast unless totally overwhelmed, they are a real slog.

- The mechanic of charging a unit and then locking another model in place (that you didn't charge) within 3" of the combat, not really sure what to think about this but it stuck in the mind.

- The game progresses much more gradually, you won't get events turning on one charge or a key spell getting off or something like that. Feels a bit like lotr without heroic combats and stuff that can break open the game.

- If it's not your priority you can feel pretty helpless. I think it really misses charge reactions and the mind game of the magic phase that engaged you even when it wasn't your turn.

- Keeping infantry heroes alive is hard, I honestly think the new heroes will be all on monsters or monsters themselves, something that make them the centrepiecces of your army, the days of teclis style frail wizards is ending.

- Shooting units will dominate this game eventually i think, especially as shooting wounds contribute towards battle shock.

- With no solid balancing mechanic games tended to be pretty one sided. If this game is to last this simply has to be fixed.

- The game needs space, more space per model as such than fantasy, a 4x4 felt a bit cramped. Ironically with no charge arcs it's quite hard to actually skirmish effectively with skirmish style units, they just get charged and die lol. Reavers seem the exception and a little op.

- The game definitely feels like it's designed for scenario play, I'd expect some standard scenarios to be released, hopefully with different victory conditions.

Hope people find that useful.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:50 pm 
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Play balance (this is something that will need to be worked on)

As a starting point maybe trying the Battalions, Cohorts or whatever other name is given at the end of each War Scroll.
I am unsure of whether these are balanced groups of troops or not when comparing different armies.

Along with this capping the wounds per army/unit?

Another possibility is following the 8th Ed Army book restrictions e.g: traditional core, special etc.., but then this would make it similar to 8th Ed army lists.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:03 pm 
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One thing the does help the "balance" is if instead of bringing a pre-determined list you just bring a bunch of minis and used the placement rules until you like the situation. It's not perfect, but you can end up with situations where you get sudden death and more powerful things on the table if the opponent doesn't do it right.

It's still a rubbish game, but that mechanic actually sort of works. It's by no means perfect, but neither will any convoluted system be.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:20 am 
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First, I recommend using wound values a balance unit some sort of comp comes out.


First, no. That's incredibly simplistic and unrealistic. 15 wounds from slaves is not the same from 5 Blood Knights.

Also, what is this comp you speak of? Who will lead and write it? It has to be universally agreed by an international party, and even then, who are to say that they have the aptitude to do a good job? What if it doesn't work, does the game just fragment into a million houserules until one becomes popular enough to overcome the rest?

Game balance is a very delicate thing, and should be done with a scalpel. I've had many years in the game balance design field professionally and it's a huge pain in the ass to get things "right", and even when you get things "right", it's not "right" for someone else. For a game as complex as Warha..err Age of Sigmar, you need a team of talented designers to prototype various, quick skeleton drafts, eliminate the ones that don't work, and then focus on one with the collaboration of deliberate and willing participants to document any and all feedback. Since this is all voluntary, and from several different communities, and with many language barriers, playstyles and backgrounds (ETC vs. uncomped vs. Swedish), it will be a absolutely HUGE undertaking.

You know who has experience with that? Me, with BfME 1,2, CNC3, CoH/OF, DoW, AoE3, and the list goes on and on. You know who isn't getting paid for it if they do this for GW? Me, because GW should have done this already, on their own god damn budget. Lazy ass. Honestly man, I can't physically and mentally express the amount of hatred I have for these people right now. At least co-develop 9th Ed. by making it practically 8th with minor tweaks and we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

The worst part of it is, once you figure out what to do about army building, you'll still have to settle for the barebones and ridiculous rules that these people made up for you. Then what are you going to do? Write fresh rules? Use old rules? just play 8th? Sounds like a bigger mess than the one we already have.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:32 am 
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Quote:
The "most important rule" should be "Ah F#$& it, who cares? It'll be fun like this". There will always be a bigger luck factor in this than in WFB, so I don't see why anyone would play this competitively over that. And while it was fun, I own other games that are more fun. The best use I see for this playing some games with the kids to get them started in the warhammer world (they get to play tomorrow) or if the models are already out for a game of warhammer and you've got a bit of time to kill.

I really did enjoy it, but if I'd gone into it thinking it was going to be my warhammer replacement I would not have. It's just not even remotely the same thing.


I think this is actually a really good way of looking at things. If the culture around AoS prioritizes fun over competitiveness, it could remain a fun for a good while. This is assuming there isn't more coming.

Glad you had some fun though :)

Quote:
I agree with your first comment, however, we will likely need to consider an army comp of something like "You must deploy at least 5 units and not less than 50 models before being able to "pass". In addition you may not deploy more than 100 models or 150 wounds, whichever comes first." The upper and lower limits can be adjusted as required, but such an approach should help aliviate certain abuses.


That's a thought, and a good place to start from for balancing. I looked at it as just playing equal model or wound count and ignoring this section, but if you keep it in and put a cap, this could work as well. More testing on solutions like this is needed obviously, but I think this is another direction to look at.

Quote:
Base size doesn't just matter, it's a big deal, particularly because of the melee weapons having a range. The pile in mechanic and then having to measure weapon ranges is time consuming, again it will make scaling up an issue. At first I thought this was really designed for small units, but loads of the warscrolls hugely reward larger units. Also once you're in combat, while you can retreat, it isn't generally worth it (imo, I mean what's the point? you can shoot in combat anyway), so having enough bodies to slog through seemed important.


Agreed. It'll be interesting playing on the rounded cavalry bases especially, as they are different from their Fantasy counterparts by the largest margin.

Quote:
First, no. That's incredibly simplistic and unrealistic. 15 wounds from slaves is not the same from 5 Blood Knights.


Yet, 15 Slaves and 5 Blood Knights is a lot closer than 15 Slaves and 15 Bloodthirsters. Clearly it isn't perfect, but it's a lot closer to balance than where we are now.

Quote:
stuff


I will refer you to this:

Quote:
If you post something here, try to touch on the same types of information (game, thoughts, suggestions) and let's try to keep the whining / winging to a minimum. This is meant to be exploratory and explanatory.


Yelling into the wind doesn't help anything, it only proves mildly aggravating the people who have to suffer listening to it.


Planning on having a few more games this weekend, will keep you updated. By and large though, I think that Shannar Sealord's approach of keeping it fun is in line with the spirit and current rules.

Axiem


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:08 am 
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This
Axiem wrote:
whining / winging

and this
HERO wrote:
Lazy ass wankers

are unhelpful.

SA

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:10 am 
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Well I've played quite a few games of AoS now, I've realised there's a more fundamental problem than any we've really discussed yet; it get's boring really fast. Our gaming group literally packed up 2 hours early because we'd just gotten bored with it. That's a really bad sign. We've never ever done that, not even at the back end of bad campaigns, people were always keen to squeeze in that extra game.

Combat is a real grind. Like once you're in it just kind of goes on and on, fairly predictably too. The priority system and alternative combats don't feel intuitive or rewarding. Remembering all the abilities is a pain in the ass, scaling this up seems quite hard to do. Sudden death leads to some pretty silly situations and games being won by hiding your last model etc. We realised that the problem wasn't the war scrolls or balance, it was just that the core rule system is really bad. Also it just doesn't look very good on the tabletop, it's very very messy once combat starts.

The level of enthusiasm was poor, the turnout was surprisingly low for the first week of a new game. Honestly this just seems like a terrible system, I'd go as far as saying it's the worst gaming system gw's ever released. I've tried most of gw's systems over the years and I've never felt bored with any of them, not even inquisitor.

There was a lot of discussion about kings of war, some were up for trying it, others were pretty against it, no one seemed keen on persevering with this for too long. Hoping the book coming out next week hugely expands on the rules, or I fear our gaming group's days are numbered.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:33 am 
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Keep playing 8th until something better comes along? Just because there are new rules doesn't mean that the old ones simply disappear or become invalid. There isn't a lot wrong with 8th (if you're playing amongst friends) and definitely nothing that can't be fixed with one or two simple houserules.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:55 am 
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We're a fairly competitive bunch, so none of us really wants to play an unsupported system with a stale meta. Maybe we'll try some narrative campaigns or something. An awful lot depends on this book that's coming out. People are saying it's 250 pages, so surely there will be a more complete system in it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:57 pm 
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Here's the thing. You don't just need balancing mechanisms for a competitive environment. You need them to have fun too. Just putting crap down on a table without any regard to the relative strength of those units creates one sided games that kills fun. The poor smuck that brings the inferior army without realizing it is not going to have fun as he's pounded into the sand. Fun games are close and meaningful. They engage both players. Age of Sigmar does not do that. No balance is no fun.

The future of what was Warhammer is in Kings of War for me. I can't wait for the 10th.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Game balance is a very delicate thing, and should be done with a scalpel. I've had many years in the game balance design field professionally and it's a huge pain in the ass to get things "right", and even when you get things "right", it's not "right" for someone else. For a game as complex as Warha..err Age of Sigmar, you need a team of talented designers to prototype various, quick skeleton drafts, eliminate the ones that don't work, and then focus on one with the collaboration of deliberate and willing participants to document any and all feedback. Since this is all voluntary, and from several different communities, and with many language barriers, playstyles and backgrounds (ETC vs. uncomped vs. Swedish), it will be a absolutely HUGE undertaking.

You know who has experience with that? Me, with BfME 1,2, CNC3, CoH/OF, DoW, AoE3, and the list goes on and on. You know who isn't getting paid for it if they do this for GW? Me, because GW should have done this already, on their own god damn budget. Lazy ass. Honestly man, I can't physically and mentally express the amount of hatred I have for these people right now. At least co-develop 9th Ed. by making it practically 8th with minor tweaks and we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

The worst part of it is, once you figure out what to do about army building, you'll still have to settle for the barebones and ridiculous rules that these people made up for you. Then what are you going to do? Write fresh rules? Use old rules? just play 8th? Sounds like a bigger mess than the one we already have.


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As the example of D&D showed, voicing our displeasure is one way to get through to GW. Voting with our wallets is another. I was planning on paying attention to the modelling releases of AoS, but if they change the scale to invalidate our old collections, then I am out for good.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:30 am 
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Truthiness wrote:
No balance is no fun.

To be fair guys like Axiem are testing the game and working on ways to get more balance into it, it looks possible. Though I agree that perhaps GW should have done much of that work themselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:13 pm 
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That's just too much work for a game I don't like anyway. Had GW given time to balancing, I might be more inclined to try this skirmish system. However, GW didn't make the effort. This game plays far closer to 40k than WFB, and I already play 40k. I don't feel the need to double tap. I'm all aboard the Kings of War train at this point. It's a well done system that I probably won't have looked at had Age of Sigmar not happened. However, now that I've really looked at it, Kings of War actually looks like it will be more fun than 8th for me. That thought has actually done a lot to placate my frustration with GW over this debacle. They want to just be a miniature company? Fine, I'll play someone else's system and just buy those GW models I like. Time to get those Phoenix Guard on multi-base dioramas!

I'm now realizing that I'm dragging the thread off topic, so I'll stop with my complaining :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:58 pm 
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When in doubt..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=592&v=plUPJ0inN4c

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:01 pm 
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While I appreciate that recent posts have been civil enough, we are now way off topic, so any further OT posts will be deleted. This thread is for discussion of AoS games, there are other threads for other debates.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:04 am 
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Alright, been a few weeks and I know feel I've had enough games to add a few more thoughts.

Generally, I'm liking AoS a lot. It's not the same as Warhammer, but it certainly is a fun game, especially with a more casual mentality from all involved. We've decided on some generally agreeable practices (not rules precisely, but interpretations) regarding shooting and combat, and this has made things a lot of fun. It's also a lot faster (and I imagine it'll only get more so), and I love that. I could easily see 6+ games in a day if this because played in tournaments.

I also standby my initial thought of this game having a lot of strategic complexity. The chance for turns happening out of sequence makes unit placement very important, but also allows for hail-Mary comebacks, which is good fun.

Most recently, we've started playing with the Azyr Comp (found here: http://www.louisvillewargaming.com/Files/AzyrComp.pdf), and the second draft is quite good. Obviously, there are a lot of balance changes needed, and some combinations are clearly under/overcosted, but generally the balance between armies is there. I'm keeping an eye out for other comp packs, but I'm like Azyr for the lack of points and the ease of army construction.

What's everyone else's experience, now that things have settled a bit? How many games has everyone played, and what comp systems are you using?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:18 am 
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I have 7 games under my belt and I sincerely doubt I will play anymore. This just isn't what I am looking for in my wargaming experience with my ever diminishing free time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:53 am 
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Giladis wrote:
I have 7 games under my belt and I sincerely doubt I will play anymore. This just isn't what I am looking for in my wargaming experience with my ever diminishing free time.


I was afraid to hear that as I have the same speculations.
My attention is going to be aimed at KoW2 I think.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:56 pm 
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I've played several games of AoS, and here's my impressions.

It does not have enough depth to maintain whatever momentum it has enjoyed in the initial release. The games get repetitive, and boring. Vastly similar stat lines across all the warscrolls, set stats that exist in a vacuum regardless of battle conditions, and lack of lethality in combat, all contribute to almost the identical situation playing out every game. Large lump of shapeless units slogging it out in roughly the centre of the table until turn 6 or the poor sap who unintentionally brought an under powered army gets cleared out.

No customization of characters is bad. Especially for a game that really only even works at a small scale with few units. That could have been an opportunity to go a Regiments of Reknown type strategy, where each of those small units (and characters) really gets to have their own flavour and contribution on the battlefield. Instead everything is static, and most units are largely identical to at least 20 other units.

Its not a terrible game system, especially for kids (assuming an adult helps them set up something remotely resembling a fair game to start, since kids are even less forgiving of getting steam rolled in a game than adults are) since it is so simple. However, I can't see myself spending any money on it, even if the new Aelves (wherever they stuck that extra 'a') are fantastic models.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:58 am 
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Well if they release nice miniaturs I will buy them for the fact they are nice miniatures but it is highly unlikely I would play the "game".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:18 pm 
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Quote:
Well if they release nice miniaturs I will buy them for the fact they are nice miniatures but it is highly unlikely I would play the "game".


I'm sorry to hear that. Do you think this would change if a comp pack was developed which made it as close to 8e as possible?

Quote:
My attention is going to be aimed at KoW2 I think.


I've played a bit of KoW2 and for big-unit games, it's pretty good, but I honestly found it more simplistic than AoS. I'll likely play both personally; do you think you'll do the same?

In other news, after having tried (and liked) the Azyr comp, Indyscore comp system is up (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1tno7w3tkz4er ... m.pdf?dl=0). Anyone tried this comp already? Any thoughts?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:52 pm 
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Axiem wrote:
Quote:
Well if they release nice miniaturs I will buy them for the fact they are nice miniatures but it is highly unlikely I would play the "game".


I'm sorry to hear that. Do you think this would change if a comp pack was developed which made it as close to 8e as possible?



I am in the process of creating 9th ed for my local gaming scene but I have no problem using 8th for forseeable time.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:06 pm 
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I have played about 5 games of Age of Sigmar and I have come to the following conclusions:

1. The game without comp (at least a bare minimum "we agree to bring the same ammount of wounds on the table") is unplayable without any meaning at all.

2. It needs scenarios with objectives (maelstorm of war 40k style would go a long way me thinks) so that you won't see in each and every battle a shapeless mass of models in teh center of the table choping each other out.

3. If the above things happen it can become a very nice and fun skirmish game. :)

4. It is not made for tournament play as it will take composition on a scale that will result in a trully different game in order to make it possible.


All in all I see good potential, but it will need development from the players in order to be good at least for now and a good deal of development from GW in the near future...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:18 am 
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We're looking to start a league at my local store. We haven't decided on a comp system yet but so far we've had good results with the azyr comp that Axiem mentioned, as well as a point system from a member of the warhammer.org forums that can be found at http://www.aospoints.com.

The game itself is fun, and like Siegfried said, comp and scenarios make it work much better.

Once a comp system is agreed upon in your gaming group, I honestly think a tournament could work. We've been thinking about the following format at my store.

6 turn limit (possibly reduced to 4 for smaller games, because things actually do die pretty fast with buff stacking)

6 objectives on the field (possibly 4 in smaller games, etc)

And for victory conditions, simply use the 40k ones.

First Blood (first player to completely wipe out a unit), Slay the Warlord (general, naturally), Linebreaker (end the game with a unit in your opponet's deployment zone) and controling the objectives.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:31 pm 
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Delete this post if it doesn't warrant threadomancy.

I had my first game of Age of Sigmar today. ~50-55 wounds per side between warriors of chaos and Nurgle daemons.

The first half hour tops consisted of my two units of five warhounds getting wiped out without inflicting a single casualty to a ten-plaguebearers unit and three bases of nurglings. What followed was at least one hour and a half of rolling dice as twenty warriors of chaos with shields and handweapons slugged it out with twenty to thirty plaguebearers (my adversary rolled a one once for each of their two units with a standard), the same three bases of nurglings and two beasts of Nurgle.

No strategy at all for over ninety minutes. I realize the matchup could have been easier than two of the toughest armies out there, but I don't think I'll play Age of Sigmar again. At least, not against Nurgle.

All that said, I've never been prouder of my chaos warriors. They were slain to the last man but only one wounded beast of Nurgle and two plaguebearers survived the unending fight in the middle of the board.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:03 am 
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Knight of the Raven wrote:
Delete this post if it doesn't warrant threadomancy.

It's cool, all input welcome.

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