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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:24 am 
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So me and my friends decided to do a team vs team 3000p battle.

The first team, representing the forces of order are the High Elves (me ~ 1500p) and the Empire (~1500p).
The second team, representing the forces of destruction and mischief are Skaven (2000p) and the Dark Elves (1000p).

We are rather inexperienced players. Me and the Skaven friend know the rules quite well and we've played a few games against each other, up to 1500 points. Our team mates have very little experience in the game.

The armies are as follows:

High elves (1497pts):

Lords (350pts):
Alarielle the Radiant (350pts), Life magic, Army General.

Heroes (142pts):
Noble (142pts), Armour of Silvered Steel, Halberd, BSB.
(yeah, no banner of Avelorn :) )

Core (384pts):
5x Ellyrian Reavers (85pts), Bows
5x Ellyrian Reavers (85pts), Bows
8x Silver Helms (214pts), Shields, FC.

Special (621pts):
15x Phoenix Guard (255pts), Musician, Standard Bearer, BoEF
22x White Lions of Chrace (366pts), FC, BotWD

Empire (1503pts):

Lords (394pts):
Karl Franz, The Emperor (394pts), Army General.

Heroes (150pts):
Captain of the Empire (150pts), Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Warhorse, Helm of the Skavenslayer, Ironcurse Icon, Sword of Might, Luckstone, BSB.

Core (375pts):
20x Crossbowmen (180pts) (should have given them a Musician)
7x Knightly Orders Inner Circle (195pts), Musician, Standard Bearer, GWs.

Special (334pts):
3x Demigryph Knights (214pts) Musician, Standard Bearer, BoEF.
Great Cannon (120pts)

Rare (250pts):
Steam Tank (250pts)


I made the list. It was designed against a 3000p Skaven army, not a mixed one. The HE part is pretty obvious. Te Reavers have their bows to kill off possible weapon teams. As for Empire: two cannons (against doomwheel, the bell), Karl Franz with his d3 wounds automatically sword (the bell would be his prime target). Karl and the BSB go into the knights unit (with GWs, they have low initiative anyway) for a terror causing magic resistance cavalry.

The list has better mobility than Skaven can achieve and two units that can deal with the HPA efficiently. Generally, apart from the Reavers and Crosbowman the units are hard to kill (either high armour saves or ward saves). Very little conventional shooting because I think it's not very effective against Skaven armies( Strombanner, very easy to cast spell). I didn't include the Everqueen banner because it would be too much (though I will test it someday).

In retrospect, light might have been better against Skaven and DE.


Skaven (~2000 pts):

Lords:
Ikit Claw (395pts)
Queek Headtaker (215pts), Army General.
(actually my opponent wanted Ikit to be his general. After deployment we remembered that the character with the highest LD has to be the general)

Heroes:
Warlock Engineer level 2 with a warp energy condenser (possibly also a dispell scroll)
BSB Chieftain

Core:
20x Slave
20x Slave
20x Slave
30x Clan Rat
31x Stormvermin (upgraded by Queek)

Special:
5x Rat ogres with 2x Packmasters

Rare:
Doomwheel
Warp Lightning Cannon

Dark Elves(~1000 pts):

Lords:
Dreadlord on cold one, Army General
(he has a helbard. For sure he also has the very cheap and good Sea Dragon Cloak. My guess is that he has the ToP and the killingblow, multiple wounds magic cloak)

Heroes:
Sorceress level 2, lore of life
(probably dispell scroll)

Core:
10x Witch Elves
10x Black Ark Corsairs (I don't know yet if they have the crossbows or an additional hand weapon).

Special:
5x Cold One Knights

Rare:
Kharibdyss

The list is kinda unorthodox on the Skaven part. The DE were included in the battle on short notice, so it was composed from a different list than the originally intended 3000pts one. No bell, no HPA, but an extra life mage, strong magic missiles, a dreadlord who can hurt Karl and that Kharibdyss thing. On top of it the upgraded SV unit.

Almost certainly there are no assassins there (not enough points). The skaven have the Storm Banner, though I don't know if on the BSB or Stormvermin.

Expect more to come,
Dr.


Last edited by Doctor on Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:23 pm 
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Terrain

We've chosen the most straight forward battleline scenario.

We've rolled the following terrain:
2x rivers
A forest (turned out to be wildwood)
Dwarf Brewhouse
Bane stone
Idol of Gork (possibly Mork :) )
A normal building
Obstacles (3 fences)

Image

We (the order alliance) started first and were able to place the two rivers in a way that won't reduce the mobility of our army. We also gravitated towards a more symmetric battlefield, so the side choosing won't be so important.

Buildings from left to right: a building, Dwarf Brewhouse, Idol of Gork, Bane stone. The fences were placed next to the brewery.

It looks more or less like on the picture.


I'm not too keen on the rules regarding all the magical terrain (why not normal, most of the time?), but we will see how this affects the battle.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:49 pm 
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Deploy

We went first. Having much more units, the enemy outdeployed us. I made some mistakes, like deploying the demigryphs outside of the leadership bubble, or forgetting that Reavers vanguard ability should be used before the first turn (this may be corrected in our turn). Probably because I was quite hangover when we started..

After deploy it looked more or less like this:

Image

My general and BSB goes into the White Lions unit. Karl and the Empire BSB goes into the Inner Circle Knights one. Our Army is possibly too spread out.

Ikit Claw, Engineer and the BSB went into the clan rat unit (my enemy at that point thought Ikit is his general). Queek went into his Stormvermin unit. The Sorceress has been deployed into the Corsair unit, ant the DE general into their lizard cavalry.

I went for a 3x3 formation for Silver helms, 4x2 for Imperial Knights, 5 wide for Phoenix Guards, 7 wide for White Lions. The Cold ones have one rank, and most of the skaven units are 5 wide IIRC.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:16 pm 
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Spell generation

This should be done before deployment, but we forgot or didn't knew. Anyway:

I rolled 1, 1, 3, 3 for my Life spells. Throne of Vines (good), Awakening of the Woods (less so, though may be useful combined with the throne) and two choices. It was a hard choice, because I wanted Flesh to Stone, Regrowth and the Dwellers. Flesh to Stone was a must, to keep my characters alive during close combat (also, a very good spell, especially considering that there's no Screaming Bell). In the end I've also chosen the Dwellers, though now I think Regrowth could be better.

They rolled/chosen Flesh to Stone and Dwellers for their Sorceress, Cracks Call (watch out, Steam Tank!), Skitter Leap and Death Frenzy for Ikit and Warp Lightning, Howling Warpgale for the Engineer (IIRC).

First turn (Skaven & DE)

We lost the roll-off, and our enemy elected to start first.

Movement wasn't very eventful. Witch Elves unit garrisoned the building. The Corsair one left the woods to avoid the risk of being hit by it. We forgot about Cold one's stupidity.

Magic was. Their roll was 3 and 1. We failed to channel, the enemy channeled on their Sorceress. So 5 dice for them, 3 for us.

Their first spell, cast with two dice was the Warp Lightning on my reavers. I knew he will target a more important unit (like the SHs) next, Reavers are a quite sacrificial unit anyway and there was a chance they will still be useful, so I let it pass. Unfortunately he rolled 6 and killed the entire unit.

Next he used all three dice (he shouldn't one of them was channeled by the Dark Elves, but we forgot about it) and used Ikit's bound spell against my Silver Helms. He rolled three 6s! There goes my dispelling :) He rolled 8 on the artillery dice, but his to wound rolls were crappy so he only killed three helms.
The miscast roll was 5, he got one wound on Ikit and killed 7 clan rats (not enough, though close, for a panic test). His BSB was in range of the blast, he failed his look out sir! roll, but he lucked out on the to wound one.

Shooting was disastrous. The WLC hit the Demigryph Knights, killing one of them. Failed Panic test, no General nearby, they've fled the battlefield! Tough luck.

Image


We will continue this soon.

Edit:
I almost forgot, their alliance already deteriorated to a suspicious one :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:23 pm 
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Thanks for posting this Doctor, very interesting!

Doctor wrote:
forces of...mischief

:)

Doctor wrote:
The list is kinda unorthodox on the Skaven part.


Definitely. It's not hopeless but it is a friendly list, likely to be more effective at killing off support units than against your more solid fighters. Simply lacking Dreaded 13th means your elite infantry can rest a lot easier, especially as you have no Dispel Scroll. The DE's have rolled Dwellers though, which is also a big threat to the Empire Knights. I feel the Slave units may be too small to hold things up effectively. Skaven Rares are always dangerous though as is the Dreadlord.

So I think the HE/Empire list is stronger, it simply has better fighting units. I'd have been tempted by High Magic on Alarielle. Unforging is always helpful and Convocation is great vs Skaven. Hand is an excellent cheap cast on the crossbows and Soul Quench melts elves. Given you went with Life, Dwellers is maybe a slight risk but could be very helpful.

Your deployment looks OK to me. The fighting units are close together and pretty central. The Kharibdyss looks doomed, given cannon proximity. I guess you might miss these on the left flank to deal with the Skaven Rares though. Losing the Demigryphs was unfortunate but at the end of the day they're a support unit, you can afford this.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:29 am 
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Thanks for the reply.

Originally we intended to play a 2000p HE vs Skaven game with a bit wacky lists (my included Eltharion on Stormwing, a Phoenix - bad choice against Skaven I feel - and high magic to move the storm banner/warpgale crippled bird around :) ). Than it was meant to be a HE+ Empire vs Skaven game (so he would bring the HPA, Bell). I think he might have used his 2k list to compose the 3k with DE on short notice.

I think the Skaven may still be effective in combat if they manage to flank and/or outmaneuver us etc, which will require clever movement on their par. The slaves are there to be road blocks, I think (he usually used big blocks of them, with many ranks). Deploying Rat ogres so far from combat might have been a mistake on their part. Still, there's that doomwheel on the flank..

High magic seems good against Skaven - though not necessary the bell unit - but I'm afraid it wouldn't keep the Everqueen alive in combat. I considered a 3 life 1 high mix. High could help the low initiative Empire units.

Anyway I'm tempted to ignore the Kharibdyss at the moment (and intercept it with the tank or cannon it later) and try to cannon shoot the Doomwheel (which poses a bigger threat?). It will be difficult due to the storm banner. Crossbowman wont be able to shoot the wheel (not in their front arc, despite what the pictures suggest) and won't be able to hit anything when the Stormbanner is active. So possibly shooting the Cold Ones and hoping for good rolls may be their immediate job.

Movement will be most difficult, I guess. It will be hard to charge them, and due to the Idol of Gork and our movement they will probably be able to charge us with ease. So proper placement of our units will be crucial.

Their main forces are concentrated on the right flank. Maybe garrisoning the Crosbowman in the Brewery and concentrating on his left is an option. I'm also tempted to rearrange and hold the lines. Or perhaps invite him to charge my infantry, but position the cavalry for a flank counter-charge. Or maybe we should go for close combat as fast as possible?

Reavers might road block something, like the SV or Cold ones or suicide charge the Sorceress.
Charging and challenging Queek with Karl's unit would be an risky but possibly good option (to take out Skaven's general), but I think he is borderline out of range. I think the Skaven player will try to hide Queek from combat, because he didn't intended him to be the general (d'oh!)

As for magic, miscasting the dwellers on their Sorceress or SV unit is also tempting :D Or at least attempting something like this if the power pool will be big enough, to drain their dispel scroll supply.

Anyway it's interesting for ma as an inexperienced player, even though I'm not sure what to do next!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:02 am 
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You're welcome Doctor.

I agree about Eltharion plus Phoenix, not the perfect opponent for this. The issue with the Skaven trying to flank you is that they are M5 infantry and don't have much hitting power. I have seen 20's of Slaves before it'll be interesting to see if they work. As far as High Magic goes, MR2 on the Bell unit only protects against Convocation a little and then he has the RIP to worry about. Everqueen has a 2++ vs most characters and a 5++ otherwise. She's likely to get at least one spell off per turn, taking this to 4++ and she can self-heal. It's not so bad.

I think you have some good ideas here. At worst you will learn a lot!

:)

One thing, Storm Banner only has a 1-in-4 chance of still functioning by your second turn.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:31 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
I think you have some good ideas here. At worst you will learn a lot!

That's for sure! :)

SpellArcher wrote:
One thing, Storm Banner only has a 1-in-4 chance of still functioning by your second turn.

True, though he has the Howling Warpgale spell - it's easy to cast (7), and it affects only the enemy. But! I just read the spell description again and it does not affect cannons! This changes things, the spell won't affect this list much

I also expect him trying to Skitterleap and Crack's call the tank. Though it would be risky, he could loose his 390 points mage this way.

Edit:
Actually that wacky list I mentioned included not a simple phoenix, but Caradryan on his bird :)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:48 pm 
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We've managed to finish the game today.

I'll write a report, but I'm afraid my notes aren't good enough for it to be accurate ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:09 pm 
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So long as you get across the main thrust of what happened Doctor. That's the main thing.

Should be very interesting!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:25 pm 
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First turn (HE & Empire)

Movement:
My plan was to stick to the left part of the field. Their main forces were concentrated on the right, so we could focus on three important targets: the sorceress (dwellers), Queek (skaven general) and the DE monster. My team mate agreed to this plan.

The steam tank moved a few inches towards the DE monster. We corrected the reaver's vanguard movement.

After some discussions and measurements we decided to charge. with Karl's unit on the slaves, hoping for an overrun to the main target - the corsair unit with DE's mage. We failed the charge and moved 4 inches or something like that (we forgot about swiftstride. And terror from the helmet. Damn.)

Than we moved our infantry in position, and the Silver helms a bit backwards.

The reavers block their movement. Silver helms are a charge threat for anywone who would try to attack the WL block. My mage still has her targets in forward arc. The tank is set up for shooting at the Kharibdyss (doomwheel was too far). PGs can charge his units or pose a threat for their flanks .

Image

Magic:
We roll 6 and 4. No channels IIRC. I cast Throne of vains with three dice, they allow it. Now I 6 dice Dwellers on the Storvermin unit (including Skaven's general), aiming for a miscast. And miscast it is! The unit looses almost half of the rats, and most importantly it also kills Queek, their general. With the last dice, I cast Awakening of the Woods on Cold Ones, but they dispel with their six dices.

They pass their panic test.

Shooting:
Storm banner works. Both cannons can't shoot. Crossbowman shoot at Cold Ones, but fail to do anything.


In the end:
Image

Big round for the forces of order, thanks to our mage.


Last edited by Doctor on Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:41 pm 
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Second turn (Skaven & DE)

Movement:

Image

They move more or less as on the image. The Ogres reform. Slaves next to them fail their swift reform and make a normal one. The Witch Elves leave the building. Cold One Knights make a swift reform and move. The monster threatens our cannon.

Magic:
The roll 3 and 4. I channel. So they have 7 dices, we have 5. They make an attempt at Dwellers on my WL unit, I think I managed to dispel).

Shooting:
The storm baner doesn't function anymore. They restrain Doomwheel from shooting. Their cannon misfire and shoots in random direction (hits the building on the left, next to ogres and witch elves). It kills three slaves.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:54 pm 
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I like the way this turn went.

Your movement looks good Doctor, keeping a line but swinging it around and making sure the PG get into the action. The Lions will be engaged soon enough because they're more central. Great job on the Queek unit. This Life strategy tends to either achieve nothing or does massive damage, here it was the latter!

Obviously your opponents have to attack the crossbows to turn your line but their movement on the other side looks a bit ambitious to me, could be an opening there for you.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:59 pm 
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Funny thing, the WLs didn't even see close combat :lol:

Second turn (HE & Empire)

Movement:

We expand three steam points with the tank and charge the DE monster. My Empire team mate rolls high and kills it with impact hits (I know, at the start of CC faze, but it doesn't matter really).
We declare charges with PGs and Empire Knights against the Slaves. The plan is to overrun into Stormverming with one of the units. I forget about terror again. Both charges are successful.
I move my reavers to threaten the WLC and the rear of cold ones, exploiting their free reform mobility (the image isn't 100% accurate, they were closer to the dark elf lizards).

Image

Magic:
We roll 5 and 6. No channels I think. My next priority target is the DE mage (she can dweller my own mage and general). I cast Dwellers, successfully. They use their dispel scroll. I use Everqueen's magic item to cast it again, this time with 5 dices. I fail to cast the spell, though it's close (or did they dispel? anyway the end result is the same - life achieved nothing this time).

So like you said, nothing this time :)

Shooting:
We shoot the clan rat unit with our crossbowman. We kill something, but it's like two rats. The doomwheel was not in our forward arc.
We hit it with the cannon, though. It looses two wounds.
The reavers do nothing with their bows.

Close combat:
We destroy the slaves. They explode, killing one storm vermin. We restrain Karl Franz and his knights and overrun with PGs to the Stormvermin. Another good turn for us.

Image


Last edited by Doctor on Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:20 pm 
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Third turn (Skaven & DE)

We forget about the deteriorating alliance roll.
Movement:
Doomwheel charges the Crossbowman's flank.
They move the Rat Ogres in position for a charge to defend the WLC.
They reform their cold ones again and move them, I don't know why (they wanted to charge the WLs perhaps?)
They don't move their Corsair unit so their mage will have range for dwellers.

It looks more or less like this:
Image

Magic:
They roll 5 and 3.
They miscast dwellers on my WL unit! I loose 7 white lions. I also loose my BSB. But crucially, I make the save on my general and mage!
Their Sorceress loose one wound and kills three corsairs (7 in the miscast table)
I dispel their remaining one dice spell (the teleport one).

Shooting:
Nothing special here. they miss with their cannon (aiming at Karl Franz).
The doomwheel misfires, but nothing happens.

Close combat:
We loose three crossbowman, they hold (being stubborn).
I kill seven Stormvermin and loose one PG (They've failed their fear test). They loose combat, fail their break test and flee. I restrain (they will need double 1s on their leadership test, so they will most probably run off the table, and I want to be in a good position to attack their corsairs. In retrospect, I could run them down because they blocked my path for the charge. I could reform anyway and charge the corsairs).

End result:
Image

A lucky turn I guess, the dwellers weren't as devastating as they could (though if not the miscast, I could possibly dispel it).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Thanks for the report so far. It looks like you're in a good spot. Some good luck in there. And you managed to get into a position where your opponents units are in each others way while you have some good free movement. Still, it's not over yet. The doomwheel can wreak some havoc still. Your opponent still has a few untouched blocks. So, it pays to be careful and chose your combats.

A pity about forgetting some of the smaller rules items like terror tests. Happens to me as well every now and then. Especially when I'm playing with new units / items. Remembering them comes with experience. :)

Playing multiplayer battles with different players/armies is always a bit interesting. Dynamics are a bit different. Personally I would forget about the alliance deterioration rolls. They tend to unbalance the game in favor of non-suspicious allies. They're nice to have in a campaign setting or similar. But for a one-off game they don't add a lot.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:53 pm 
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True, the deteriorating alliances may not be the best idea outside scenarios.

Third turn (HE & Empire)

Movement:
The tank rolls a misfire when generating steam points, but it doesn't change anything.
We charge the Corsair unit with PGs. It was a mistake not to purse stormvermin, they make a small flee roll and end up blocking the Sorceress.
We charge the cannon with reavers.

I think we were tired at that point, we forgot to continue fleeing with the stormvermin.

Image

Magic:
I roll 6 and 5 again. No channels. I cast throne with three of them (they've dispelled it at some point). They allow me. Next goes 6 dice dwellers on the Clanrats unit with Ikit Claw, Skaven BSB and a Warlock. I roll high (27), they fail to dispel it.
All his heroes make the save. I only kill 13 rats.
I use the last two dices to cast flesh to stone on my PGs (maybe an overkill, reavers would be a better target). I roll very low, failing to cast the spell.

Close combat:
Nothing happens in the doomwheel-crossbowman fight. No wounds, tied combat.

Reavers, despite lack of spears, do three wounds on the T6 cannon. We mix up the rules, it doesn't do the break test (which it would probably fail). There's that rule that war machines do not run when they fail panic tests, but not break tests :|

The PG - Corsairs fight is almost as dull as the doomwheel one. Both units loose one fighter, I win the combat, they pass their LD test.
At that point I should be able to do a combat reform to attack the Sorceress (with only one wound), but I forget about that rule and the SV unit still blocks the way.

End result for the turn:
Image
(ignore the S2 slave unit, it's dead - I don't know why it's on this picture)


Last edited by Doctor on Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:07 pm 
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Doctor wrote:
We expand three steam points with the tank and charge the DE monster. My Empire team mate rolls high and kills it with impact hits

Vicious!

Doctor wrote:
I forget about terror again.

I tend to do this too!

Doctor wrote:
I cast Dwellers, successfully. They use their dispel scroll. I use Everqueen's magic item to cast it again,

Double Dwellers. Ouch! Needless to say, it can be a good idea to split characters between units if facing Dwellers, to reduce the risk.

Doctor wrote:
They reform their cold ones again and move them, I don't know why

Perhaps they didn't fancy the Karl Franz fight?

Doctor wrote:
flesh to stone

It wouldn't have been effective here but 6-dicing this when you've got Throne up can be very strong. +4 Toughness can be huge and of course miscasts are minimised.

Doctor wrote:
We mix up the rules, it doesn't do the break test (which it would probably fail). There's that rule that war machines do not run when they fail panic tests, but not break tests

It's true, they don't run at all. See pg 110. On a failed Panic test they can't shoot in their next turn. On a failed Break test they're destroyed.

The battle still looks promising!

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:01 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Perhaps they didn't fancy the Karl Franz fight?

True, that's the reason most probably. It turned out the Dreadlord only had the ToP for a 4+ ward save, no killing blow cloak. So I wanted to avoid him with Karl due to the possibility of killing blow multiple wound attacks, he wanted to avoid Karl :lol:

SpellArcher wrote:
It's true, they don't run at all. See pg 110. On a failed Panic test they can't shoot in their next turn. On a failed Break test they're destroyed.

That's the important part, you'll see why when I post the next part ;) He would have to do a LD3 break test, so most probably I'd destroy it after the first phase of CC.

Also, ignore the S2 unit in the last picture, It's some kind of an error, the unit is dead.


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