Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

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jwg20
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Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

#1 Post by jwg20 »

Hey all!! I recently played in a KoW tournament! It was a 2 day, 5 game tournament consisting of 20 players. First youtube report is up! Take a look and let me know what you think!

King of Kings Game 1
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Re: Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

#2 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Gatti,

Great to see you attending an event. I think you mentioned it was a small one but I hope it is just the beginning and soon KoW will be attracting as many players as WFHB used to.

I really like the pictures where you showed armies during the deployment. So good to see the real armies! Fantastic sight of many elements and units being the real flesh and bones of the forces.

I also noticed you rebased your daemons army. Was it really necessary? How about transporting the army? Any problems when the miniatures are fixed to big bases?

Maybe it is my inexperience but your game kind of showed what I observed a few times already. If I am mistaken, please correct me and I will watch the report again :)

Basically, I observed that in some games battle lines lock horns, there is this big rugby scrum in the middle and whoever breaks first is at a disadvantage. I would love to see more games with sweeping maneuvers but maybe it as just this battle. I recall one of your games with Undead where you won one flank, the enemy won the opposite and then you both turned for Battle for the Pass to decide the outcome in a final clash.

What is your experience in that matter?

Congratulations on your first win in the tournament and great start! Looking forward to more reports!

Cheers!
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jwg20
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Re: Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

#3 Post by jwg20 »

@ Swordmaster

I rebased the army largely because I was unhappy with the basing, and also because I repainted quite a bit of it. The bigger bases weren't an issue in transport. I liked that it allowed for more scenic bases. For my army it was unfortunately necessary. Abyssals are on 20mm bases, while warhammer daemons are on 25mm. I could have gone with 8x3 wide but it wouldn't have been the exact right depth. As I planned to rebase the army anyway, it wasn't that big of an issue for me. The new bases look 100x better than before. The unit isn't finished, as I plan to add the Chaos Warshrine in the big gap in my big unit's base. In a transport case, the deeper bases are the same thickness as a 2" foam tray, so if you get a customizable foam tray you can make it fit and lay down the regimental bases sideways. It works well for kings of war and allows for more creative modeling, which is really one part of KoW that I am most excited about!

I think I am misunderstanding what type of maneuvering you are concerned about. Kings of War is all about positioning, and how you maneuver is a big part of that. Your units need to be aligned to support each other, as a counter charge inevitably happens (even if he breaks you, he can only overrun D6 inches, so it is likely if you are well set up a counter charge is imminent). The trick with positioning is to make it so your units are set to support each other, but your opponent's forces are disorganized. That is done entirely with superior maneuvering and understanding of how the game will play out.

In this game, I was specifically focused on getting there quickly, which is why I was less concerned with turning his weak flank. I wanted to get to his shooting fast and close with his center having taken minimal shooting damage. Sometimes the best route is the fastest. In other games, maneuvering played a bigger role. It all depends on the grand strategy for that game.

Anyway, let me know what type of maneuvering you were concerned about and I will let you know if this game offers it. I actually find movement in KoW to be much more important than WFB, so I don't know what you mean by saying it lacks maneuvering.

Anyway, game 2 is up!!

King of Kings Game 2
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Re: Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

#4 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Gatti,

Congratulations on the second victory! =D>

I totally agree that in theory the positioning and movement phase are very important. The fact that you can double or even triple the attacks if charging from flank or rear is massive. So players should do what they can to get that advantage.

However, getting into position like that is not easy at all. First, you have many units on both sides and with fixed width of the elements it is impossible to go in between them. Hence, only fliers can land in the good spot, other units tend to meet each other head on.

Second, you have only one pivot and only for the normal move unless you are nimble. So you again need flying unit (as they are usually nimble) to get to the flank.

Since armies tend to have more infantry anyway and often in horde formation then it seems to me that it is safer to move slow but to keep formation. That leads to the situation where in order to create the opportunity for flank/rear attacks you have to clash with the enemy and push each other back and forth to make a breach.

In this case, while positioning and maneuvering to get into that position is important, it simply does not look that dynamic, in particular if you are spectator.

But I do hope it is more my own lack of experience at this moment and the fact that majority of the games I watched are, by default, battles between new players.

Cheers!
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Re: Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

#5 Post by jwg20 »

I think it is lack of experience. As you said, it is hard, as it should be, but not impossible. There are a lot more movement limitations to KoW than there is in WFB, and its much more rewarding if you pull it off due to the 2x or 3x attacks. Your opponent is going to be that much more invested in preventing flank charges because of how damaging it can be, and the movement limitations on units makes it very difficult to achieve against an opponent who is maneuvering well in order to prevent flank charges. Very few things eat a flank charge without dying. If it was easy, then your opponent messed up badly. And really, I'm surprised you want it to be easy! It should be difficult to pull off a game winning maneuver! No good player is going to hand you an easy flank charge like they do in warhammer! it is up to you to put him in a situation where he doesn't have a choice! That said, I still got a flank charge off with my infantry molochs when my opponent in game 1 advanced his mummies into me without support because my units were deployed to aid each other.

If anything, the impact of flank charges makes the game more realistic. In reality, no army marched a unit up alone without support, enabling easy flank charges to the enemy. Most battles throughout the era before gunpowder became head to head infantry clashes in the middle and cavalry on the flanks, with the fast units on the flanks providing the late battle counter charge into the flanks/rear of the enemy formation. There was no single unit deathstar that you see so often in warhammer, marching freely into the enemy and not caring about flank charges because characters can just make way and tarpit attacks, and even if they are flanked they're stubborn and won't run away. That never actually happened. The dynamic maneuvers always occurred by fast units on the side and to give up a flank meant you lost the battle. Excepting surprise attacks and the battle of Cannae, I can't recall any other battles where infantry was the group doing the flanking maneuver. No general worth his salt would let that happen. So it is down to your fast elements (cavalry, flyers, etc) to pull that off.
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Re: Kings of War Tournament, 2000 pts, Legions of the Abyss

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Gatti,

I am not expecting this to be easy. And I don't expect it to be possible as often for infantry as for cavalry. What I try to point out that due to the fact that armies consist of more units total, that form usually cohesive battle line and with no option to change the formation, armies often use brute strength to make a breach. Either with shooting or with some huge number of frontal attacks/repetitive combats.

What I would like to achieve in my games is to be able to move my units in such fashion that enemy has to respond by breaking their formation and thus letting me execute some combined charges.

I am sure my lack of experience in this system is major factor. And I know I observed just a handful of games in the system that is new so the players also learn things. Please, don't think I am impatient. Just sharing my observations and I am happy to learn new tricks along the way and verify my conclusions :)

Thanks for the reply too!
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