MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

That was supposed to be a week packed with games. I was about to play 9th Age against Daemons on Tuesday, against WE on Thursday and finally, KoW on Friday. Unfortunately, real life had some other plans and 9th Age didn't happen (sorry Elithmar! We will get our game, I promise!)

Fortunately, the interference didn't last as long as I was afraid of and I managed to play the game on Friday. Kings of War for the very first time after a lot of thinking, reading and observing. I had a pleasure to play against Loriel, who also was interested in trying out KoW and he decided to use one of the experimental lists, Empire of Dust.

If you are interested in these armies here is the link: KoW - Beta Army Lists

Loriel told me he picked the units from his collection purely on their aesthetics as we are both new and we didn't yet know what to expect from these regiments. His army was:

Cursed Kings - Army List

Revenant Chariot Horde - 185
- Skeleton Cavalry - 85
- Skeleton Cavalry - 85
- Balefire Catapult - 100
- Bone Giant - 180
- Cursed Pharaoh in Chariot -225

Enslaved Guardian Archers Horde - 230
- Bone Giant - 180

Skeleton Archers Regiment - 100
- Cursed High Priest, Heal - 145

Skeleton Archers Regiment - 100
- Balefire Catapult - 100

Swarms Regiment - 65
Swarms Horde - 100

I decided to use the following army list:

Outcasts - Army List

Palace Guard Regiment - 150
- Stormwind Troop - 140
- Stormwind Troop - 140
- Drakon Rider Lord, Beastslayer Sword- 180

Sea Guard Regiment - 170
- Silverbreeze Troop - 145
- Silverbreeze Troop - 145
- Wizard with Banechant and Inspire - 110

Sea Guard Regiment - 170
- Palace Guard Troop - 105
- Palace Guard Troop - 105
- Drakon Rider Lord- 160

Hunters Regiment - 170
- Bolt Thrower - 90

Army Total: 2000

You can read more about this army and why I chose these regiments on my blog: MSU Elves in KoW

Let me go briefly through each choice in the EoD army. It is more to learn what these units can really do so let's see if I can assess their roles accurately before the game started.

Chariots - Very versatile unit, that is equipped with bows meaning they can be used both as shooters but can hit hard too due to their Thunderous Charge (2) rule. They also have quite a reasonable number of attacks so hitting on 4+ in combat and 5+ in shooting will do some damage. Of course moving and shooting is not that great because of the additional penalty but they can be useful both as static and dynamic unit. What seemed to be their disadvantage in my opinion is their big foot print. They can be potentially attacked by many enemies at the same time and despite the fact they have good nerve (I think :)) they are definitely not invulnerable.

To attack them first will be tricky as they are fast but it would be good to take away a few damage points and then hit them hard, hopefully with my heavy cavalry and drake lords.

Skeleton Cavalry - they look to me as medium cavalry. They are nimble, so can have additional pivot but no bows. They hit harder due to Thunderous Charge (1) but it is not as hard as Chariots (fewer attacks, not as strong impact and hitting on 5+). They are also fastest units in this army. If possible I would like to destroy them fast as they look to me as units that can interfere with my movement phase well.

Balefire Catapult - two war machines that are actually good at inflicting damage but they also have 5+ to hit and one can always try to move out of line of sight. However, with 48" range it is not easy to hide from them. I decided to make them my priority and try to eliminate them first. Both with shooting (for lucky nerve test or simply to inflict damage) and in combat. Units triple their attacks against war machines so I thought that whatever hits them - kills them.

Bone Giant - these guys are really tough. Very high nerve, defense 6+ (meaning I would need 6's to do damage unless piercing, crushing strength or thunderous charge rules apply) and hit very hard too! With relatively small foot print they can also sneak around nicely. I thought that I could potentially inflict some damage with Bolt Thrower against them, and try to attack it from two directions with Drake Lords. But even then I would need to face counter charge and if I cannot isolate them it can be very tough opponent to destroy.

Pharaoh in Chariot - first, source of inspire. Second, has surge (6) so can help the army to move faster. He is quite good in combat and definitely hard to destroy with Defense 6+ and regeneration. As with the Giant I was thinking about softening it up with Bolt Thrower and finish it with my own heroes.

Enslaved Guardians - walking statues with giant crossbows. Excellent, 36" range means it will be hard to avoid their fire. They hit on 5+ but they have many attacks. They can hit well in combat too so they make another versatile unit. As a horde they also have a good nerve value. In order to bring them down I need either a cooperation of several units or good shooting and then attack. Seems like there are many targets like that in the enemy camp!

Skeleton Archers - they might not strike fear in their enemies hearts but they should not be ignored. Their shooting always adds damage, they are not easily destroyed but have to be taken into account. They should be easier to deal with that other tough units and I think I might actually try and attack them to receive their charge (and stop them from shooting) and finish them in subsequent round of combat.

High Priest - Surge (10) is great at pushing units forward and with additional heal he is great. He also has Inspire rule which makes him 2nd and last source of that in the army. Fragile so will be kept in safe place but needs to stay close to help the units.

Swarms - good at interfering with the movement phase and cheap to sacrifice but can suffer damage quickly. Vanguarding units so that can be very useful too.

In general, EoD has advantage in shooting but is slow due to whole army Shambling (i.e. cannot move at a double). Surge will be vital here but can be cast on 2 units maximum. I wanted to use my shooting to help the regiments in combat but at the same time I would have to move fast to neglect my enemy's advantage.

Terrain

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We wanted to keep the things simple so decided the hills are very high so while the largest monster is level 4 we decided to make hills level 5 (although I am not sure if that is possible in the system :)).

The rocks were blocking terrain meaning you cannot see and move through them at all. Trees were level 3 high for the purpose of determining if units on the hill are in cover/shoot through cover.

Deployment

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Deployment order and vanguards

The deployment order:

1. Skeleton Archers (SA1) - Silverbreeze (SB1)
2. Skeleton Archers (SA2) - Silverbreeze (SB2)
3. Bone Giant (BG1) - Stormwind (S1)
4. Balefire (BF1) - Stormwind (S2)
5. Chariots (C) - Hunters (H)
6. Enslaved Guardians (EG) - Sea Guard (SG1)
7. Balefire (BF2) - Palace Guard (PG2)
8. Bone Giant (BG2) - Sea Guard (SG2)
9. Skeleton Cavalry (SC1) - Palace Guard (PG3)
10. Skeleton Cavalry (SC2) - Palace Guard (PG1)
11. Swarms (S2) - Bolt Thrower (BT)
12. Pharaoh (P) - Wizard (W)
13. High Priest (HP) - Drake Lord (DL1)
14. Swarms (S1) - Drake Lord (DL2)

Vanguard:

15. Swarms (S1) - Hunters (H)

Image
Deployment after Vanguards

As expected I had a dilemma how to deploy as my usual approach of having more units than the enemy and positioning the units accordingly could not be used. I decided to use fast elements in two groups on both flanks so that I could use Drake Lords to provide sources of inspire and combine their efforts to outflank the enemy.

I had infantry in the middle with small PG behind to protect them from shooting and close together to be in inspire range. I knew I am at disadvantage in shooting but wanted to still use it until cavalry secures the flank to weaken the enemy. If that worked I could then coordinate the approach of all units from three directions and use fliers to attack what I want without being blocked by ground forces.

Another reason I used Sea Guard as a main line of defense is that they have Phalanx special rule and have a chance to reduce the impact of the chariot charge since Thunderous Charge is neglected.

I was very curious if that simple and kind of obvious plan is going to work! :)

Loriel won the roll-off and decided to take the first turn.

Cursed Kings - Turn 1

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Opening fire

Pharaoh looked at the mortal army across the desert and with a single move of his hand the order was given. Silent warriors shuffled forward where necessary and arrows sailed towards the Outcasts. Early shooting was not yet as harmful but fast cavalry on the right flank suffered some casualties but they held fast.

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Outcasts on the move

Elves moved forward, with the center approaching slower to be able to shoot at the enemy. However, the impact was low as the shooting was not yet that accurate. On both flanks fast cavalry opened fire at the catapults but it was the one on the right that was utterly destroyed thanks to the help of Bolt Thrower crew great skill.

Cursed Kings - Turn 2

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Elves die in droves!

Pharaoh kept his army steady and his warriors, now not distracted by the unnecessary movement, aimed much better. Two Elven regiments were the targets and both suffered a lot of damage. Surviving warriors lost their nerve and fled the battle (Edit: I tried to show damage in red circles in this report to provide information on the odds of losing the nerve and being routed. In addition, I was careless and didn't bring both inspiring characters into range for lucky re-roll. While Silverbreeze cavalry was probably gone anyway, Palace Guard still had a small chance to survive for a little bit longer.)

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Elves decided to launch first charges. On the left flank fast cavalry attacked the war machine of the enemy but the long charge must have drained their strength as they failed to destroy it and now were in a very bad spot as they exposed their flank for the counter charge.

On the right flank Hunters, not hindered by the forest, cleared it from some undead bugs stopping their advance.

In the center, Sea Guard parked firmly and with the aid of their wizard leader continued shooting match, this time choosing more vulnerable target.

Cursed Kings - Turn 3

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Undead shooting is still dangerous

Skeleton cavalry countered the Elves and their fast unit could not hold against flank attack and broke. Undead shooters aimed at various targets across the battle field and while they didn't claim any regiments this time the damage was substantial.

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Elves continue the advance on the flanks

Elves took the risk and attacked on the left flank. Both targets, the catapult and cavalry, were finally destroyed but the impetus of the attack was not enough to carry Stormwind squadron away from the nearby giant.

On the right flank the hunters led the way to dare the giants to attacks them with fast troops following and waiting for the chance to counter.

Sea Guard continued the shooting at the Skeleton Warriors but they still refused to crumble, despite heavy losses.

Cursed Kings - Turn 4

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Undead counter attack

Expected counter attacks hit home. On the left flank the giant stormed through the flank of elven cavalry and they barely held but were wavered and had to limp away to regroup. Also Palace Guard now securing the flank of the Sea Guard wavered under heavy fire.

On the right flank Hunters were lucky to be charged by Enslaved Guardians only as the magical Surge of the nearby giant didn't bring him in contact. However, skeleton cavalry spotted the opening and attacked their elven counterparts. The attack resulted in disruption of the enemy.

Outcasts - Turn 4

Image
Elves push again

The fight on flanks continued with no definite result yet. Stormwind cavalry on the left flank had to move away from the giant to avoid extermination. Hunters and Drake Rider on the right flank pushed against Enslaved Guardians but despite heavy punch they didn't crumble just yet. Disrupted formation of the right flank cavalry prevented them from mounting successful charge and their attack lacked cohesion and didn't bring any effect.

Cursed Kings - Turn 5

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Another heavy punch by Undead warriors

Yet another opportunity presented itself and Pharaoh was eager to use it to his advantage. He and his loyal High Priest used their unholy magic to animate Bone Giant and one of the Elven Drake Lords was totally surprised by the attack and smashed to a bloody pulp.

On the other flank Hunters were not able to withstand such a heavy punch when rampaging giant hit their flank together with vengeful guardians and were destroyed. Cavalry squadrons continued their fight with no side gaining the upper hand yet.

What is more, arrows of the undead warriors finally destroyed yet another Palace Guard unit. Elven forces melted at dangerous speed in the merciless heat of the desert sun.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Preemptive attack

With flanks collapsing it was the time that central units moved to positions. On the right flank Drake Lord managed to destroy the heavily damaged Guardians but cavalry were still locked in combat.

Valiant Palace Guard charged alone against Chariots, ready to sacrifice themselves but their valor allowed phalanxes of sea guard to move safely to position and disrupt the enemy so that their counter charge would be less devastating.

Cursed Kings - Turn 6

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Palace Guards holds!

Chariots as expected stormed into thin line of the Palace Guard but proud Elves refused to give up their position. Undead forces try to finish off Elven cavalry but these warriors hold fast too. Although the regiment on the right flank wavered and had to regroup.

It was the last change for the Elves to hit the enemy hard!

Outcasts - Turn 6

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Powerful attack!

Finally, Elven units managed to combine their efforts and attack together against single powerful enemy. However, the attack, also supported by the mage, hit so hard the ancient chariots crumbled into dust and victorious Elves moved forward re-grouping quickly to be ready for a counter attack.

But such attack never came as desert storm, appearing as if from nowhere, separated the forces and when it cleared out as quickly as it started, undead warriors were all gone.

It was clear that it is not the end to the feud between two armies but for now commanders of both forces decided to withdraw as the conflict remained unresolved.

Image
Final position of the forces

Summary

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Turn-by-turn summary animation

After-battle thoughts

After turn 6 we rolled to see if we are going to play one more turn but it was not to be and we simply calculated the points to find out it was a draw! It is a perfect result for the first game, where both players are learning the game, if you ask me and I was happy to get one after such powerful hits for sure.

I would like to thank Loriel for a great game where we were both very slow but I am sure it is just a matter of practice. However, I really liked the game and I am also happy to learn that my previous concerns it can be quite static were not justified.

It was inevitable that we made some mistakes but more importantly it showed that if you take the army you like the look of it can still be dangerous on the battle field. My first impression is thus very positive as it suggests that you can play successfully with any army.

I believe, however, I could have avoided many of these mistakes and they cannot be simply justified by the fact it was our first game.

First of all I should have positioned my fast cavalry on the right flank behind the forest to provide cover from shooting. Second, when I moved them forward I was not in 6" range of inspire from my Drake Lord. In fact, I made that mistake several times and while the chances were not great at least I would give myself the opportunity to save the unit.

I also think I should have kept the Palace Guard as a second wave and provide some cover from shooting too. They were more important that game because they can do more damage with CS(1) (and even more so with Bane Chant) while being static with Sea Guard was not as successful as I hoped for. Instead, I should have kept marching and even being in the charge range of the Chariots would put me in the good position with Phalanx rule and the good support from other units for a counter charge.

I thought I took Surge into account but Loriel quickly showed me I didn't. In the first flanking attack I was lucky but I should have really paid more attention second time when I moved my drake lord to the center. It simply means that against armies with Surge such maneuvers are too risky as the units can still turn around and then be pushed forward. Hard lesson learned!

Another mistake was exposing Stormwind cavalry for the charge of Skeletons horse. I lost thunderous charge due to that and as a result the unit that can hit hard was stuck and I was lucky not to lose it.

In general, I found that cavalry is a very tricky tool to use and seems like it can be devastating but only when charging first. It also greatly pays off to attack the unit with TC rule just to inflict a single damage so that they lose the ability for next turn.

I liked that last charge so much! I was nicely surprised to see I can inflict a lot of damage indeed and that it was really enough to crumble the horde that is not that easy to destroy.

In addition to the observation I made about cavalry I also think it is interesting to see how shooting works. On one hand it can indeed inflict enough damage to destroy units. In fact, dishing out 10 damage point for the regiment of 20 warriors is already enough to have a great chance to rout it. And that is important conclusion for me.

However, I took Sea Guard that is easily limited in their shooting abilities as they hit on 5+ so any penalty makes it 6+ quickly. Hence, I need to re-think how I want to use them and as this game showed I may need to be more aggressive with them if the enemy does not want to come to me.

I think I will play a few more games with the same force as I need to test it against different foes before I will start thinking about any changes. I need to learn what works well for me in this system. But the first impressions are very positive.

I hope you liked the report, thanks for reading and looking forward to your comments and feedback!

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#2 Post by Loriel »

Thanks again for the game. Hard to say much about the game in tactical point of view (without spoiling result yet ;) )

As Swordmaster said I chose the units first and then looked up what their special rules are ;) That was really nice way to do the army, and I hope I could field army in 8th similar way ;) (impossible!!!) I made a basic strategy in before game that I want to have shooty army, that will have close combat threat by bone giants / chariots. I wanted to force swordmaster to come to me and do point denial style castling up. (very tomb kingy)

I still hate my self on that horde swarm deployment ;) I though that "Hey, we can move through friendly..." well with shambling and biggish foot prints ahead...

Other than that I think deployment were decent enough.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#3 Post by Elithmar »

Well, I really couldn't give any prediction given my lack of knowledge of KoW, but it seems like all the armies in KoW are very similar to Warhammer ones (which is I'm sure not a coincidence). Looking at how Swordmaster has deployed the palace guards behind the sea guards, is there a way to get them in front when you need to, or would you have to march all the way around?

Looking forward to this one. :)
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#4 Post by Cold Phoenix »

Well, I don't usually comment, but I'll give it a go.

This seems to be a classic mismatch. Loriel has many more shots and some of them are quite nasty with Piercing Strength (Guardians and Balefire). He also probably has higher nerve values on most of his units and they heal each time they fight a combat. Swordmaster is faster (because elf and no shambling) and has much better hit values with elite (reroll 1s to hit). He also has 3 bubbles of Inspiring compared to Loriel's 2.

In this case, the Balefire Catapults seem out of position (yes, I get that they probably need to be somewhere with good LOS), but the Skeleton Cav aren't going to be able to fend of Swordmaster's flanking units on their own. I predict that Loriel will need to commit more to fending off Swordmaster's flank attacks or risk having the elven Cav and Drakon Lords get behind him. In the meantime, Swordmaster's Infantry are going to be advancing. The Chariots and swarms are going to be a problem, because they can deal damage to Swordmaster's infantry and slow him down (if only because his units would prefer not to be charged by the Chariots).

I think the deciding factor is going to be shooting and the resulting nerve tests. Loriel has more shooting and a static position to shoot from. Swordmaster is going to be advancing, so his only effective ranged units will be the Bolt Thrower and Silverbreeze Cav, because if the Sea Guard hang back to shoot, the advancing Palace Guard will get in the way. If Loriel can do enough damage to Swordmaster's units and get some Wavering or Rout results early on, things could go his way, but if he doesn't I think Elven melee with better threat ranges, elite and Me 3+ or 4+ will be a real problem for him.

I'm not sure how magic will be used here. The Priest and the Mage both have Heal which could make a difference to how long units stick around. At the same time, Surge (to get off charges) and Bane Chant (for increased damage because elves don't have a huge number of attacks) will probably become more important once Swordmaster closes in.

In this case I'm going to bet on Swordmaster (sorry Loriel).

On a last note, I came across this interesting site http://kow2.easyarmy.com/. It's a free army builder for Kings of War 2, which seems to have the stats, abilities and point costs for just about everything that can be fielded in KoW.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#5 Post by Jimmy »

All I can say is Loriel I hope you do way better than me at representing the dusty bits of that other empire. :lol: At least when the Balefire's hit, they certainly do a great job of mincing what they touch.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Great to see that the new system is attracting attention! Thanks a lot for your comments, very much appreciated!

@ Loriel

You did very well! I guess TK and in general undead of the ancient Egyptians flavor suit you much better than some treacherous Elves :)

I think you played the game very well and punished me for the mistakes heavily. I learned a lot more about Surge than I thought I already know. It is kind of this situation when you know something but it is definitely different kind of experience when you see it in practice.

Looking forward to your comments on the game and the report!

@ Elithmar

I put PG behind since troops have lower Nerve value and it is easier to make them waver or rout them. But they can hit harder in combat and in this game, where Loriel had shooting advantage, I thought it is better solution. I had two options, I could move them through Sea Guard as in KoW you can move through your own units or move around. I chose longer move around but I wanted to expand frontage when I lost two flanking regiments and was worried that when different groups separated I created too much of a gap to be exploited.

@ Cold Phoenix

Thanks for the feedback! You should definitely comment more often!

You are correct on the relative strengths although as the game showed, well executed counters with Bone Giants are truly nasty. That does not change the overall assessment though. What I found challenging is that I think I usually preferred counter charging approach while here I had to be more aggressive with the units from turn 1. And in addition I could not really out deploy Loriel in the typical manner, i.e. having significantly more units to place than my opponent.

I wonder if you think that my plan for holing with Sea Guard to inflict some damage while fast units were supposed to destroy the enemy on the flanks was a good one. The execution was not for sure as I failed to do it properly and even if I collected some points and destroyed the catapults then I simply suffered too much in the process.

Thanks for trusting in my skills, I hope a draw is not too bad of a result here :)

Thanks for the link! I think I posted it in the KoW - resources topic but thanks for the reminder!

@ Jimmy

As you can see Loriel did great and with Surge nonetheless!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#7 Post by Loriel »

cheers for finishing the report!

Game was intense, especially the last turn excellent charge from swordie and I think the best possible outcome. DRAW!

Now that I understand better the game mechanics I could have used the chariot pharaoh much more aggressively. Overall I think my overall plan worked quite well. I still don't know if I will play more KoW (one of my gaming group buddies who is truly KoW fanatic insist that I have to play against him) so probably yes.

I am going to do more review style commenting:
- KoW suits UB much better than WHFB, with more linear movement and no model replacement / reforms.
- In general I liked the game, mainly because I think it represents big armies with ranked military better than WHFB. Also the armybuilding mechanic were quite interesting.
- Magic seems toned down too much, but this is something I can live up to, since I could enjoy more ranked infantry ;) Surge is excellent spell though.
- I liked the nerve system in the game
- Measure distance + Fixed Charge range: I would prefer Measure + random (perhaps even d6 random) charge or no measure and fixed charge range. naturally this particular feature needs different tactic, but Imo it will evoke more cat&mice game especially if movement 9 cavalry tries to outmaneuvre movement 8 cavalry placing the models exactly 17 inch away and the other side simple moves backwards. Random movement will make risk taking little more appealing. In whfb I always wished that double 1 on charge would be failure. however on brightside in WHFB infantry charges too long compared to cavalry so.
- Individual movement. This is double edged sword, when started the game I didn't (even though I red the rules) that they are subject to normal 1 pivot + 1 pivot from nimble. This naturally requires more skill to be used properly, especially when the spells needs LoS.
- No character joining in units. I think this is mistake on KoW rules. There absolutely should be mechanic where character joins the unit and it would give them some extra nerve etc aswell with the attacks of the character.

Empire of Dust, In general I think they have captured the essence of the Kings, but I hope they would introduce somekind of EBtS mechanic for them. However I do understand that with the number of attacks rear / flank charges give aswell that in charge you will not receive any damage, similar EBtS would be real killer ability in KoW. But even something like placing markers in the board before game and they will emerge if opponent comes too close or with roll of 1 or something like this. I could think it could work.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#8 Post by Elithmar »

Thanks for the report. KoW looks interesting. I might even have to try it out myself. :)

The fact that you don't get to fight back when charged is really interesting. Is there any kind of opportunity to reform after combat? It looks like making sure you wipe out the enemy on the charge is massive, as well as thinking carefully about where your units will be left after combat. Surge looks powerful.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks for the feedback!

@ Loriel

Ha, I thought you like the system based on first impressions but it seems that not so much! Is Warhammer still better?

I wonder how would we look at KoW without prior experience with other games in general and WHFB in particular. I try to analyze the games as if I didn't but it is not easy. For example, if magic was incorporated into WHFB as a part of the shooting phase and didn't have such a dramatic impact I wonder if we even looked at few spells that are available in KoW as low impact rules. I think it is more subtle and you used Surge perfectly, showing how this spell can work wonders for you.

I don't mind that you can measure any time and that the charge is fixed range. Yes, it may cause problems where you can technically always avoid the enemy but in practice it might not be the case at all. Depends who is running away and who tries to catch. This is where hordes may have the advantage as they are able to soak up damage and still be in position to hit back hard.

I am not sure what to think about role of characters yet. They definitely fill the niche but at the same time it depends which character we talk about. But after all these silly things you can do with characters in Warhammer I am really happy you cannot do it in KoW.

We will see what they are going to make of EoD in the end but it was good to face "Tomb Kings" again. I think I was very lucky I pulled out that last charge that saved me from losing the game. :)

@ Elithmar

I think you should! Just to see how you like it in practice! Would you pick Elves in KoW as well?

Technically, you are free to do whatever you want after units disengage. However, since you normally are allowed to make one pivot only you cannot avoid the enemy. But you can counter charge that has that bonus that you can face the enemy that has just attacked you, even if they did so from the flank or rear. You get that pivot for free. And you are not hindered that means you don't suffer penalty if charging through difficult terrain.

Fliers have much more options. They can simply fly away and even open the opportunity for a fresh unit to attack instead.

As I learned in this game very well it is hard to commit a unit without it being attacked soon after. Even if you wipe out the enemy and reform, you can still get massive counter punch.

Cheers!
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Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Baragash
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#10 Post by Baragash »

There was, way back in what is technically version zero mk 2, at least one unit with an ability equivalent to EBtS. Holy mother of all brokeness! I think a list that maxed out on them won the national tournie.

Regarding random charges, I personally prefer the houserule of D3 per point of Speed, so on average a unit charges double it's move, and by being related to Sp balance is preserved, but that element of risk still remains.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#11 Post by Loriel »

@Swordmaster I liked the system. I totally agree that having prejudice of Warhammer will give this game a hard time. But on the other hand it is also a good point of reference.

@Barahash that is an excellent houserule, however involves tons of rolls. But this would be exactly what I would like and it wouldn't affect the outcome very likely. Think about cavalry with 9d3. it will really deviate only by couple inches, but just enough to give the element of surprise and possibility for failure.
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Ferny
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#12 Post by Ferny »

SM - BR feedback - I think it's up now, but when I first read the installment on my phone I think I remember there being the animated deployment map only, but it would be quite useful to additionally have a final deployment map posted at that same time so that it can be studied more easily.

Game feedback - none - I haven't read KoW rules yet so all I know I've picked up from this forum and mostly from SMs useful commentary. Did like the fairness of the final result though. Looking forward to seeing more. I'm wondering whether KoW might be the game for me - it'll be either this, remnant 8th, or some version of 9th I think. I don't want to lose the mass battles joy and I don't want to have to start collecting a new army/system from scratch, I'm too invested.

RE: charge rules - I've played a few over different editions. Some folks like some, others like others. I don't think everyone can ever be pleased and I think any work fine :)
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#13 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Baragash

I didn't know the rule was tested and I can imagine that it can be tough to counter, especially with Surge. But as Loriel said there might be a way to come up with something that allows for it and is not broken. I really trust Mantic design studio can do it!

@ Loriel

I think KoW will never escape the comparison to WHFB. But I also understand how frustrating it can be to be constantly compared when the game is not that similar as it looks.

In any case, I don't mind discussing the similarities or using one as a reference for the other. Personally, just want to try and approach the game without being unnecessarily biased.

@ Ferny

Yes, I did add the final deployment as a single picture when I updated the report. :)

Hopefully I will be able to add some reports on regular basis. It will be interesting to try and provide these for KoW and 9th Age as well. I find KoW much smoother and I absolutely love the fact it is units orientated and simply does not allow silly conga lines or other gamey maneuvers from Warhammer. :)

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Baragash
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#14 Post by Baragash »

Surge?! That would have been worse!!! IIRC it was the Twilight Kin Assassin that had "EBtS" (which made it highly maneuverable, cheap and killy....I think Individuals still double/tripled attacks for flank/rear back then too)...man, if it had had Surge as well :twisted: [-X #-o [-o<

I would say that there isn't much desire to look at such a rule at the moment. Vanguard is considered to be quite a powerful rule and that only allows you a pre-game At The Double. I also think there's a fine line for a "surprise" being divisive in making the game less of a fair test of player skill than is wanted.
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#15 Post by Cold Phoenix »

@ Cold Phoenix

Thanks for the feedback! You should definitely comment more often!

You are correct on the relative strengths although as the game showed, well executed counters with Bone Giants are truly nasty. That does not change the overall assessment though. What I found challenging is that I think I usually preferred counter charging approach while here I had to be more aggressive with the units from turn 1. And in addition I could not really out deploy Loriel in the typical manner, i.e. having significantly more units to place than my opponent.

I wonder if you think that my plan for holing with Sea Guard to inflict some damage while fast units were supposed to destroy the enemy on the flanks was a good one. The execution was not for sure as I failed to do it properly and even if I collected some points and destroyed the catapults then I simply suffered too much in the process.

Thanks for trusting in my skills, I hope a draw is not too bad of a result here :)

Thanks for the link! I think I posted it in the KoW - resources topic but thanks for the reminder!
I probably should comment more. The problem is that I'm a full time uni student and between Uni and whatever else I have on, I often have little time or motivation to post.

I hadn't quite seen how good the Bone Giants + Surge would be. It gives them lots of non-linear movement, allowing them to get into flanks. I think Loriel used them very well and you could have ended up in worse trouble if the turn 4 surge on the right flank had worked.

I'm not enthused by the way the Sea Guard hung back, because I think that it let the Bone Giants divert to deal with your flank attacks. Also, I'd say that 2 Regiments of Sea Guard + Bolt Thrower is roughly equal in shooting power to the Skeletons Archers + Chariots, but the Sea Guard + Palace Guard troops should win in melee. The Skeleton Archers are pretty useless in melee and The Chariots don't get Thunderous Charge against the Sea Guard. If you'd pushed up earlier, you'd probably have forced Loriel to keep the right flank Bone Giant in the centre, rather than sending it after the hunters. This might have made life hard for the Sea Guard in the middle, but it also might have allowed the Hunters to survive and clean up the right flank, perhaps in time for the Stormwind Cav to join the battle in the middle?

Good to know that you already know about that army builder. I've been playing with it in my spare time, but the local fantasy scene still seems alive (though smaller), so I'll keep playing that for the moment.

As for the draw, I don't think it's a bad result. You were playing with an unfamiliar system in a matchup where you had no experience. I think you’ll do better next time, but so will Loriel :P.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: MSU HE - Kings of War - vs Empire of Dust

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Cold Phoenix,

Sorry for late reply!

Yes, I understand the duties in real life can take away precious spare time and that there are better ways to spend it than on the forums! I am glad you made an exception then. :)

That non-linear movement was also a great asset for TK in Warhammer although here you can be sure the spell is going to be cast. On the other hand the distance is still an unknown so proper planning is required. However, I really like that option because it makes these units move in a very unique way. They might not be fast in a straight line but they are also well protected from some fliers landing behind them, as this example in the game showed very well.

I agree that I should have used Sea Guard more aggressively. With Phalanx rule I could keep moving them forward and start threatening the enemy faster rather than let them stay at the safe distance and keep shooting. I think it was the mistake that cost me 2 units. Not saying I would have saved these but at least I would have had a chance to do more damage. And who knows, may be take more enemies with me that would have changed the final result in my favor.

Hopefully next games will be more interesting or at least with fewer mistakes although I assume there will be some due to the fact it is still a new game and system.

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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