MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I had a great pleasure to play against fellow forum member and battle reporter, Loriel. We played over Universal Battle and Loriel was kind enough to let me choose which army I would like to face, High Elves or Tomb Kings. As I have played against HE recently quite often and I haven't had a chance to see new units from End Times in action, I asked for Tomb Kings! However, Loriel told me he plays old school with no benefits from End Times books whatsoever!

We agreed on a simple Battle Field with standard 2400 points armies. Loriel asked for closed lists so the one I am going to present below was not fully known to me during the game. In fact, I didn't know the composition of his force at all (I had some clues though) so please, take that into account when considering my decisions during the deployment phase.

Cursed Kings - Army List

Liche High Priest, level 4, Obsidian Lodestone, Power Stone - Lore of Nehekara - 275
Prince Apophas - 130

20 Skeleton Archers, Master of Arrows, Musician - 140
20 Skeleton Archers, Musician - 130
20 Skeleton Archers, Musician - 130
12 Skeleton Archers - 72
5 Skeleton Horse Archers - 70
5 Skeleton Horse Archers - 70

3 Necropolis Knights, Standard, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 220
3 Necropolis Knights, Standard, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 220
3 Sepulcher Stalkers, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 165
3 Sepulcher Stalkers, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 165
Tomb Scorpion, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 85
Tomb Scorpion, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 85
2 Tomb Swarms, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 80
2 Tomb Swarms, Entombed Beneath the Sands - 80

Casket of Souls - 135
Casket of Souls - 135
Screaming Skull Catapult - 90
Screaming Skull Catapult - 90

I decided to use my most recent version of MSU force:

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster, Earthing Rod, Armor of Fortune, Obsidian Amulet - 320
Bob the Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon (Swiftsense), Dragon Armor, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield - 331

16 Archers, Full Command - 190
15 Archers, Full Command - 180
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, Musician, Bows, Spears - 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, Musician, Bows, Spears - 115

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Lions, Banner, Musician, Gleaming Pennant - 150

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
9 Sisters - 126

I will continue with army run down as usual later. At the moment we agreed with Loriel on the following. I am going to post single turn per day, starting with today's introduction and deployment. We will try to add some comments on our decision making in addition to the details I am going to provide from our game. We would love to hear your thoughts and predictions based on the current stage of the game! So don't be shy! I am sure we all can learn from that process and I am very curious about the things that can be revealed in the process of writing the battle report and even more so during the discussion!

Terrain

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Hill - Blocks line of sight
Forrests - Mysterious terrain
Lake - Mysterious terrain
Pyramids - Impassable, blocks line of sight
Sphinx - Nehekeran Sphinx (as per rulebook, p. 130), blocks line of sight

I won the roll off for picking up the side and chose South. Lorile won the roll determining who is going to start deploying troops.

Deployment

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Deployment, Scouts, Vanguards

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Final deployment

Deployment order:

Skeleton Archers (SA1) - Ellyrian Reavers (ER1)
Skeleton Archers (SA2) - Ellyrian Reavers (ER2)
Skeleton Archers (SA3) - Great Eagle (GE1)
War Machines - Great Eagle (GE2)
Skeleton Archers (SA4) - Archers (A1)
Hierophant - Rest of the Army
Horse Archers (Scouts)

I won the roll off for vanguards and started:

Ellyrian Reavers (ER1) - Horse Archers (HA1)
Ellyrian Reavers (ER2) - Horse Archers (HA2)

We are looking forward to reading your comments! I will not reveal at the moment who got first turn but remember that Loriel has +1 to start. No less than 8 units are waiting in Ambush! I will present turn one tomorrow and hopefully I will also be able to go through Loriel's army.

Loriel's Hierophant got following spells: Desert Wind, Cursed Blades, Dessication, Skullstorm

Loriel won the roll off as expected and proceeded to his first turn!

Cursed Kings - Turn 1

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First blood for Cursed Kings

Hierophant ordered his minions forward and drew deeply from the raging winds of magic. Larry could stop only one thing and focused on shutting down the effect of one casket of souls. Thanks to that Hierophant moved his units forward faster and the second casket released its deadly cargo. The unit of Swordmasters became the target and howling souls claimed all but the Bladelord. Even the training in White Tower didn't prepare him for the horrors he has just witnessed and he went mad. Nearby White Lions were shaken too but fortunately for them magical banner calmed them down (Edit: Had to use Gleaming Pennant for failed panic check do to destroyed unit in 6", i.e. fleeing Bladelord off the table edge.).

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 6,6 --> 12:6 (no channels)
Desert Wind: 3,6 + 4 = 13 --> no dispel attempt
Casket of Souls (right): 1,3,4,5,6 = 19 --> dispelled on a roll 1,3,4,5,6,6
Casket of Souls (left): 1,3,3,4,5 = 16 --> no dispel attempt --> 3d6 Ld test for Swordmasters (S2): 5,6,6 - ld8 = 9 wounds, panic failed on a roll of 4,6 --> Bladelord fled off the table --> didn't jump to new unit due to roll of 2 to do so


Shooting Phase Details:

Horse Archers (HA2) at Reavers (ER2): 5+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 2 wounds, no saves (failed 5+)
Archers(SA2) at Reavers (ER2): 5+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 2 wounds, both saved on 5+
Archers(SA3) at Reavers (ER1): 5+ to hit (11 can shoot) --> 1 hit, 4+ to wound --> 1 wound, saved on 6+
Horse Archers (HA1) at Reavers (ER1): 5+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 2 wounds, no saves (failed 5+)
Right Catapult at Larry the Loremaster: HIT --> Look Out Sir! passed --> 2 Archers affected but no wounds --> 6 + 1 Swordmasters hit --> 4 + to wound (2+ for one) --> 3 wound (1 wound) --> 2 saved on 5+
Left Catapult at Eagle Claw (EC1): missed the target

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Outcasts move forward!

Elves had to move fast to use the opportunity that ambushing elements of the enemy army (expected but not known in what quantity yet) have not joined the battle yet. Since the enemy deployed in the center outflanking seems like an invitation and it would have been rude not to oblige. Especially as a guest!

Larry tried to make undead bowmen less accurate and burn some others to dust but somehow his fireball didn't even form properly and he lost his energy completely.

The shooters picked up but although one unit of Horse Archers was destroyed, the general performance seemed not to be as efficient as expected.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 2,6 --> 8:6 (no channels)
Miasma at Archers (SA1): 2,6 + 2 = 10 --> no dispel attempt --> -1 BS
2d6 Fireball at Archers (SA3): 1,2,3 +2 = 8 failed to cast

Shooting Phase Details:

Reavers (ER2) at Horse Archers (HA2): move, range, 4+/5+ (champ/unit) --> 2 hits, 4+ to wound --> 1 wound, no save
Sisters at Horse Archers (HA2): range, 3+ --> 6 hits, 3+ to wound --> 5 wounds, no save
Archers (A1) at Archers (SA3): move, range, 4+/5+ (champion/unit) --> 2 hits, 4 + to wound --> 1 wound
Eagle Claw (EC1) at Archers (SA3): 3+ to hit, multiple --> 4 hits, 3+ to wound --> 2 wounds
Archers (A2) at Archers (SA3): range, 3+/4+ (champion/unit) --> 10 hits, 4 + to wound --> 3 wounds
Eagle Claw (EC2) at Horse Archers (SA1): 4+ to hit, multiple --> 3 hits, 3+ to wound --> 2 wounds

Cursed Kings - Turn 2

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Units start crawling out of the sands

The call to arms and to protect their King resonated through vast desert. It was answered by the creatures buried beneath the sands, small and large and each dangerous in its own way. Majority of the ambushing forces appeared behind Elven lines, where Sepulchar Stalkers, Swarms and Necropolis Knights made their presence seen. Another pack of Stalkers blocked Dragon Princes on the East and both tried to transfix as many knights as possible. There were significant casualties but the survivors were determined to hold fast and enact vengeance!

A lone Tomb scorpion lost its way, however, but fortunately showed up close it its own forces to be still of some use. At the same time Skeletons moved back as their Hierophant wanted to put extra distance in between the forces. Some of the fallen warriors stood up to fight again but unlucky magical feedback turned some of them into dust again. Elves suffered more damage again although it seemed slightly less devastating than before. Unfortunately, they could not be resurrected as the Undead warriors and each casualty was making the situation of the Outcasts worse.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 5,5 --> 12:6 (2 power dice from casket and one channel for Elves)
Desert Wind: 1,4 + 4 = 9 (no dispel attempt)
Left Casket of Souls at BSB: 2,2,3,3,4 = 14 --> dispelled with the roll 1,3,3,4,6 + 2 = 19
Right Casket of Souls at Great Eagle (GE1): 2,4,6 = 12 --> no dispel attempt --> 2,4,6 - Ld9 = 3w --> jumps to great eagle (GE2) --> 1,3,5 - Ld 9 = 0w --> jumps to Archers --> 1,3,3 - Ld 9 = 0w --> fails to jump further
Dessication at Swordmasters (SM1): 6,6 --> Irresistible Force --> Miscast: 1,5 --> small template s10 hits --> 9 archers destroyed, hierophant wounded

Shooting Phase Details:

Horse Archers (HA2) at Reavers (ER2): 5+ to hit --> 3 hits, 4+ to wound --> 3 wounds, no saves (failed 5+)
Sepulchar Stalkers (SS2) at Dragon Princes (DP2): 6,6,8 = 20 hits, 6+ to wound --> 3 wounds, 6++ ward saves --> no saves, panic passed
Sepulchar Stalkers (SS1) at Dragon Princes (DP1): 6,6,MISFIRE (suffered 1 wound) = 12 hits, 6+ to wound --> 2 wounds, 6++ ward saves --> no saves, panic passed
Left Catapult at BSB: misses the target
Right Catapult at Eagle Claw (EC2): misses the target
Archers (SA1) at Swordmasters (SM1): 11 could shoot, 6+ to hit (due to Miasma) --> 2 hits, 3+ to wound (due to Dessication) --> 2 wounds, 1 save on 5+
Archers (SA3) at Swordmasters (SM1): 18 shots, 5+ to hit --> 11 hits, 3+ to wound (due to Dessication) --> 6 wounds, 2 saves on 5+, 1 parry on 6++
Archers (SA4) at White Lions: 12 shots, 5+ to hit --> 3 hits, 4+ to wound --> 3 wounds, 3+ save --> all saved
Archers (SA2) at White Lions: 20 shots, 5+ to hit --> 8 hits, 4+ to wound --> 4 wounds, 3+ save --> 3 saves

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Elves re-arrange their formation to counter a new threat

With new players entering the stage Elves had to react fast. Their leaders noticed that the enemy bowmen pulled back and that gave them a little bit more breathing space they wanted to to use to their advantage. The new plan was quickly formulated. Cavalry on the flanks proceeded with their initial push and Reavers destroyed first catapult on the West while Dragon Princes avenged their fallen companions and attacked Stalkers.

In the meantime, the rest of the forces reformed and tried to hurt the ambushers with ranged attacks before bracing for impact. However, the magic and shooting results were a big disappointment and Elves stoically awaited incoming attacks.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 1,1 --> 2:1 (no channels)
Burning Gaze at Necropolis Knights (NK1): 4,5 + 2 = 11 --> 1,3 = 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 1 wound, 4+ to save --> saved

Shooting Phase Details:

Eagle Claw (EC2) at Necropolis Knights (NK1): single shot, 3+ to hit --> hits, 2+ to wound --> wounds, multiplies to 1 wound, does not go further
Archers (A2) at Necropolis Knights (NK1): move, 3+/4+ to hit (champ/unit) --> 10 hits, 5+ to wound --> 2 wounds, 1 save on 3+
Eagle Claw (EC2) at Necropolis Knights (NK1): multiple shot, 3+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 4 wound, 5+ to save --> all saved
Sisters at Sepulcher Stalkers (SS1): move, distance, 4+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 2 wounds, 6+ to save --> no saves
Arches (A1) at Sepulcher Stalkers (SS1): move, 3+/4+ to hit (champ/unit) --> 6 hits, 5+ to wound --> 2 wounds, 5+ save --> no saves

Cursed Kings - Turn 3

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Prince Apophas is here!

Prince Apophas made it to the battle among more swarms but he went towards the Sisters as main target. They were also attacked by vicious swarms who have just devoured eagle claw and its crew.

More Necropolis Knights emerged from beneath the sands and they joined nearby Stalkers to attack elven archers. However, those that attacked elven forces earlier didn't fare that well. First group of the Knights charged against Archers but their ranks and martial prowess of the Loremaster meant that only one knight was allowed to strike back and he crumbled to dust soon after. It was the fate of the Stalkers attacked by Dragon Princes too although only regimental standard bearer remained alive.

Hierophant and his legions of shooters stepped in but surprisingly this time they didn't claim as many casualties.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 3,3 --> 9:3 (3 additional from Casket)
Desert Wind: 2,2 + 4 = 8 --> Dispelled on a roll of 2,3,5 + 2 = 12
Left Casket of Souls at Dragon Princes (DP1): 2,4,4 = 10 --> 2,3,6 - Ld9 = 2w --> 1 6++ ward save --> panic check passed
Right Casket of Souls at Eagle Claw (EC2): 1,4,6,6 = 17 --> 1,2,6 - Ld8 = 1w

Shooting Phase Details:

Horse Archers at Eagle Claw (EC2): 5+ to hit --> 2 hits, 6+ to wound --> no wounds
Stalkers (SS1) at Archers (A1): 8,6 = 14 hits, 6+ to wound --> 1w
Prince Apophas at Sisters: 7 hits, 5+ to wound --> 3 wounds, 6+ save --> no save
Catapult at Eagle Claw (EC2): missed the target
Archers (A3) at Dragon Princes (DP1): 12 shots, 5+ to hit --> 4 hits, 4+ to wound --> 3 wounds, all saved
Remaining Archers at White Lions: 1 wound total

Close Combat Details:

Stalker (SS2) vs Dragon Princes (DP2): DP 3+ to hit with re-roll --> 3 hits, 5+ to wound --> 2 wounds, 5+ save --> no saves; Steeds, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 5+ to wound --> no wounds; Stalker, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 2+ to wound --> 2w, 4+/6++ to save --> 1 save; Stalker crumbles
Necropolis Knights (NK1) vs Archers (A2): Archers, 4+ to hit with re-rolls --> 8 hits, 5+ to wound --> 6 wounds, 3+ to save --> 4 saves; Larry the Loremaster --> 3+ to hit --> 3 hits, 2+ to wound --> 3 wounds, 6+ to save --> no saves; Necropolis Knight, 2 attacks 4+ to hit --> 1 hit, 2+ to wound --> wounds, 5++ save --> saved; Snake Mount, 3 attacks, 4+ to hit --> 1 hit, 2+ to wound --> 1 wound, 5++ save --> no save; The Knight crumbles

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Lots of explosions!

Outcasts had to push harder if they wanted to survive that tough situations. Fortunately, they had the tools to do so. Depleted squadrons of the cavalry were still dangerous and they didn't hesitate to attack. Reavers charge the scorpion and pinned it down for a while although they lost another rider. Dragon Princes charged their respective targets and while the lonely standard bearer inflicted significant damage it was his companions who had a more important task to accomplish. They spotted exposed flank of the units where the Hierophant was hiding. They hit fast, they hit hard and more than half of a unit crumbled. Now, would they be able to hack it to pieces fast enough before the reinforces would come?

In the meantime Bob the Battle Standard Bearer exploited another mistake his undead foe made. He charged at the exposed flank of the Stalkers, tore through them like hot knife and impacted into a flank of another regiment, freshly emerged Necropolis Knights.

One of the great eagles tried to aid Sisters but poisonous attacks of the vicious undead swarms were too much for him and Sisters could not hold and broke only to be run down in the pursuit.

Larry used his potent magic but anger made him careless. He drew too much of the energy, it was unstoppable balefire that evaporated Prince Apophas in an instant. However, as he exploded the feedback also resulted in another disaster. Many Archers fell and their surviving companions thought it was better to take away Larry to safety despite his vocal protests! (Edit: I made a huge mistake here. I thought charging Bob has them in range still but I didn't measure and when the explosions happened I failed panic check and was just above 18" for the re-roll!)

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 3,5 --> 8:5 (no channels attempts)
Burning Gaze at Prince Apophas: 6,6 --> 2d6 (due to lore attribute against undead) = 11, 4+ to wound --> 6w; his explosion kills 3 archers; Miscast result = 1,4 --> Loremaster wounded but saves on ward 6+ --> 7 more archers die --> failed panic check

Cursed Kings - Turn 4

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Few Elves that survive try to fight back

With many fights around the battle field the balance seemed to swing towards one and then to the other side. On one hand Elves defeated their enemies in close combat (although Reavers were still destroyed by Tomb Scorpion) and were very close to get the main prize, the Hierophant now. On the other Undead were deadly with their ranged attacks, in particular Caskets reminded about their presence by destroying entire regiment of White Lions!

Larry and his few companions lost some more warriors to asp arrows and they were now interested only in trying to find a shelter and simply surviving the battle.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 1,5 --> 9:4 (3 dice from casket)
Dessication at Dragon Princes (DP1): 1,5,6 + 4 = 16, dispelled on the roll of 1,3,4,6 + 2 = 16 (Edit: According to my chat copy I thought I had only 4 dispel dice, I would use 5th dice for this attempt for sure)
Left Casket to White Lions: 4,5,6 = 15 --> 4,5,5 - Ld8 = 6 wounds
Right Casket to White Lions: 2,5 = 7 --> 4,6,6 - Ld8 = 8 wounds, dead unit
Cursed Blades at Archers (A1): 2,2,3 + 4 = 11 (with the use of a power stone) --> no dispel attempt, 2 models resurrected

Shooting Phase Details:

Horse Archers (HA2) at Archers (A2): 5+ to hit --> 1 hit, 4+ to wound --> no wounds
Archers (SA2) at Archers (A2): 5+ to hit --> 5 hits, 1 allocated to Larry (saved) --> 2 wounds
Catapult at Eagle Claw: missed the target

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Hierophant is destroyed!

Knowing that if they get the Hierophant then there is a chance to survive the battle, Elves pushed for one more effort. Bob the Battle Standard Bearer destroyed last Knights and was scanning the field. On far East single Dragon Prince emerged victorious from the fight against Skeleton Archers. Remaining Swordmasters crushed the annoying but dangerous Swarms.

But in the most important fight, two Elven knights finished off the Hierophant and the magic that bind the walking skeletons weakened. As a result one Tomb Scorpion, Horse Archers and Catapult crumbled to dust. That relieved some pressure from the Outcasts but the battle was far from over!

Cursed Kings - Turn 5

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Leaderless the army of undead slowly crumbles to dust

Without the Hierophat to lead them the undead forces were not as vigorous and some of the skeleton warriors started to crumble. But the fight continued and one regiment of Archers attacked Dragon Princes. Exhausted Knights moved away to avoid the combat.

One of the Casket of Souls was still stopped but the other one released its cargo and remaining Swordmasters were claimed by the souls of the dead.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Very few warriors remain

Larry and his few companions keep fleeing, they almost managed to reach the pyramid and while they are not yet completely safe at least they will not be attacked anymore.

Bob the Battle Standard Bearer spurred his mount and flew towards Dragon Princes but he was too late. Elven Knights were so battered they had to withdraw immediately to avoid destruction. Their lone companion in a heroic charge finally demolished the cursed Casket that claimed so many Elven lives but the resulting detonation killed brave Knight as well.

The archers tried to finish off the other Casket of Souls that suffered some damage due to weakening of the bond between realms of the dead and the living but could not make it.

Cursed Kings - Turn 6

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Last strike by Cursed Kings

More units crumbled and last Casket fell apart too. Without any magic and no chance for combat, Skeleton Archers released the last arrows and got the remaining crew member of the Eagle Claw bolt thrower.

The final word belonged to Elves however.

Outcasts - Turn 6

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Last combat

Larry the Loremaster climbed through the ruins and almost fell if not for a helping hand of his companion. They were exhausted, wounded and barely alive but made it to the safety and could wait for the rescue teams now.

Bob led the last attack all by himself and stormed furiously into the remnants of the Skeleton Archers. He and his griffon left no foe to fight any further.

In the meantime, Archers marched to shoot at a Tomb Scorpion. It was clear that the beast is brely animated and a single arrow would end its artificial live but the target was not easy to hit and Archers didn't deliver the final blow.

Although both armies were almost utterly destroyed, Elves carried the day as their leaders were still among them!

Summary

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Turn by turn animation summary

After-battle thoughts

First of all I would like to thank Loriel for a great game! He is a great person and I highly recommend that you go and ask him for a game. The sportsmanship of your opponent is the most crucial factor in determining how much fun you get from it and Loriel is an example to follow!

I also hope that this game showed that you should never underestimate Tomb Kings. I absolutely love the army Loriel brought to the game as in my opinion it emphasizes the nature of the skeleton warriors of the Desert. In particular the huge amount of regiments that were entombed beneath the sands.

This time I go an upper hand but I am sure you could see many moments in that game were things could go much better for Loriel and he was definitely on a good path to the victory. As always, tiny details can change the course of battle! Here are the situations I think had a significant impact on our game:

1. Opening the route to the hierophant - even if didn't bring much destruction to TK army on its own it definitely helped. First of all, with the constant threat of Caskets I had a tough choice, allow them to unleash their deadly cargo or allow the TK general to move his firebase into range and resurrect fallen troops. Both situations where undesirable because both meant I was losing warriors.

Getting the hierophant and the bonus for the general was still a significant amount of points. In addition, when the crumbling occurred, Loriel lost one Casket and remaining catapult, further limiting his ability to inflict damage at the distance. It is also important to note that killing hierophant took away horse archers who would otherwise attack fleeing Loremaster and earned Lorile 600+ points!

2. Exposing the flank of Satlkers and Knights - that simply crushed the plan Loriel had to surround and destroy my archers and I was happy to use BSB as mobile reserve for that particular purpose. I just wish I noticed I could charge with the Eagle against the Knights so that BSB could fight twice the same turn and hopefully finish the enemy earlier.

3. Not charging with Archers against Swarms attacking Eagle Claw - I considered that and acknowledging the full benefit of a hindsight I think it was a mistake not to do so. If I did I would be able to save Sisters and prevent Larry from fleeing even if he miscast anyway.

4. Not measuring the distance from charging BSB to other units - that was simply unacceptable. And if not for some luck I would have lost my general and another unit. Not to mention that the loremaster had no opportunity to redeem himself for quite miserable magic phases in the first half of the game.

I still wonder how could I deploy better, the main and always the same question I ask each time I play a game :)

I hope you enjoyed the report and we are both looking forward to reading your comments!

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:28 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
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~Milliardo~
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Introduction & Deployment

#2 Post by ~Milliardo~ »

Those caskets look vulnerable out on the wings.
Jimmy
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Introduction & Deployment

#3 Post by Jimmy »

Interesting deployments.

Firstly a fascinating match up and my alliances are divided! :)

I'm keen to hear Loriels thoughts on deployment, I'm thinking he had a set plan rather than counter what SM was putting down as he has so many re-deploy able assets that can shift the battle quickly. I think I would have anchored a corner however making a wall of bone and throwing entombed units where required. This would allow the catapults, caskets combined with 60ish archer shots isn't an easy nut to crack with elves.

With the setup currently I feel it's too open and both flanks are exposed. Perhaps it's a ploy to draw the outcasts in perhaps and if so Loriels thinking is way elevated from mine and clearly I've been buried in my tomb too long or flying ships in space!! :)

The outcasts however aren't without options, I think the caskets and war machines are threatened from the fast cav and eagles, sure they can have ebts units chasing them but then that means they aren't fighting the combat units in the MSU force.

Keen to see the opening magic phase as the caskets left unchecked can drop those assets I touched on.

Bring on turn 1.
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Ladril Caledor
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Introduction & Deployment

#4 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Looks like a High Elf win. Dragon Princes, reavers and eagles should hit the flanks and take out the catapults and caskets Asap. If that happens, the Outcasts can win the ranged battle, and dominate the close combats as well. I can't really see how TK win. They need first turn and for his shooting to go really well to have a chance.

I would love to see the MSU's take on a Loriel High Magic list sometime.
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Loriel
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Introduction & Deployment

#5 Post by Loriel »

Pre armylist

When I started to do the army list I got a real thinking how could I manage to answer most of Swordmasters strengths. So I first gathered main strenghts he has.

- One of the strongest property of Swordmaster has is "master of terrain". Look at any of his games, he manage always turn Terrain in to another unit of his. I simple know that I lack the perspective to utilize terrain so I needed someway to hinder this effect. when you look closely almost any battle Swordmaster has played the similar thing can be seen. He take shelter behind LOS blocking terrain, and usually comes out somewhere in middle game from the covers. He provokes his opponent to come closer so he can surround him in hordes of small elite units, while benefitting from relative safety against magic missiles / bs shooting.
- Swordmaster is really patient and safe bet guy. He doesn't risk any of the units without good odds. Swordmaster also prefers to play extra safe when he is winning.
- He is very experienced player and have played against very good players.
- He has played with MSU list so much that he knows exactly what it can do and can't do.
- He has tons of experience over UB

Then I though about my self:

- I am also very experienced player (in terms of played games it is now 122 games in 4 years) but key difference here is that my experience is mostly against casual players. I naturally evolved to fight them and our local meta is more "biggish infantry fights".
- Atleast in my own small gaming group I am alpha player. (given that it doesn't really matter when you come to play with the big boys)
- It has being almost a year (last game with TK 14.9.2014) since I played with TK. I had 20 games with Helf in between.
- This was my second (if you count the swift AoS test game) game with UB. I knew that I will have hard time learning all the rotation etc things.

So in order to win I needed strategy that has some of these elements
- out maneuvres
- out shoots
- preserve points better

-------
armylist

I concluded that one important factor how the list should work that it either have someway for swordmaster to advance in early game or someway cause more trouble if he doesn't. Both these needed lots of shooting naturally.

Characters
Well I always start army building from character. I don't usually like to spam characters. For Lords I weighted couple options

- Hierophant level 4 nehakhara is almost autoinclude for me. I don't see any reason why wouldn't I pick him out there. Additionally I need to think about what kind of bunker I need. I have grown fond of 20 strong archers unit with mus + champ. For equiptment I usually build the hierophant with ToP and dispel scroll. Now ToP doesn't really give anything spectacular here. High Elven are so good fighters that in such a unit I usually play ToP really doesn't give any significant safety. however I concluded that Loremaster Larry would wish to shoot tons of shems and fireballs on my mage bunker thus mag res 3 was the choice. Additionally loremaster didn't have kind of spells that are must dispel. So I decided boldy to leave dispel scroll away. One of my favorite Khemri player Folomo always speak for power stone being one of the best items. On the other hand he usually uses light council type list, so perhaps it is more fitting to that. But I decided to give it a go to secure magical dominance even in low winds of magic.

- I considered getting a cloak of dunes tomb king. I played it once and it was really fun character to have around. Against msu the flyby damage could really worthwhile. In my first draft there was a king with destiny armor and gw, but I decided to drop him. Rather big investment.

- Apophas, I like this dude haven't played a lot. I started a converting project about 1,5 year ago.. still work in progress. My main thinking was that he is this rogue choice with str 2 breath weapon to deal with either sisters or archer unit. His exploding death could also cause extra damage in good placement. He also had fairly good chance dealing wounds to Larry with the special ability. Sadly locking larry in to challenge might prove hard as in order to kill larry reliably he would need breath weapon against him. rerolling breath weapon str 2 hits would be rather good.

core

- Well two horse archers had only one job intended. And that was prevent reavers from making forward advance and threat my caskets and catapults. With 2 unit 5% chance of deny vanguards, with third it would have being guaranteed. I considered that after the vanguard blocking rbts / magic / shooting will quickly destroy them so I didn't really intend to have more late game thinking for them. naturally redirecting is their job, but in general, this was to buy me one more turn with cask / catas.

- Archers 3 x unit 20 musician. I wanted to build "bone fortress" and death zone in the middle. This death zone would be place where Swordmaster could walk with white lions / dragon princes without too much worry, but swordmasters / reavers / archers (allthough they can out range me with 30 range) couldn't face without risking bigly. One of the ideas here was that I was going to take most of my points from EBtS and present these archers for easy way for swordmaster elites to come and collect. Thus giving my ebts best chance of succeeding against archers and all the rest that were left behind. The other effect is that if swordie wouldn't come forward these archers would round them up behind terrain / out of range. This would make casket / catapults job much more potent additionally any panic test much more likely. I personally preferred latter option.

- small unit of archers were really just fill the points. I really wanted to have unit of chariot for designated flank protection. Chariots would easily counter reaver unit. It would have being possible to leave other horse archer of and took chariots instead.

special

- Both necropolish knight units main target were archer units. Only banner for combat res purpose

- Stalker main purpose was to destroy / hinder Dragon Princes. They are really potent unit but I have many times found that after initial deployment they seem to have little effect. This is mostly due lack of skill deploying them properly, but these snakes surely would benefit from skirmish / musician / shooting in cc.

- Scorpions were my reserve unit. They were supposed to come in aid where it was most needed. Would it be redirection / flank charge / dp / reavers etc. thats what scorps will do.

- Tomb Swarms for the win. Naturally rediection was their designated role as well RBT killing. In my experience swarms usually destroy warmachine (or deny its attacks) more reliable than scorpions. This is mainly due fact that they are really hard to actual remove with magic / shooting. and shooting swarms usually isn't the main priority for opponent. They can suffer 4 wounds before their offensive capabilities are hindered. 10 attacks with poison will do couple wounds and if it fails it will tar pit any crew for long time.

Rare

- One casket is always stable choice for me. I haven't got enough balls to leave one home. But I never used two since I don't think they are really worth doing double. This is topic that could be wrote a tons of text. In this match I think that bounce and low model count per unit is good synergy. Casket will have decent chance of causing heavy casualty checks, bounce around when there is not enough room. and additionally if swordmaster would seek refuge from archer barrage behind hills then close quarters would work nicely.

- I personally don't like catapults one bit. In my experience both as opponent playing and me, they seldom do anything spectacular (save trebutchet and hell cannon) But for the same reason stated above if swordie would fortify behind small hill chance of hitting -> causing panics increases. Even hitting two units at the same times will be more likely. Thus when I choose this they were meant to be weapon of war.

----

Now when the list was done Swordie had pretty much two options to go for. Either spread out and advance fast, killing my archers and hierophant, or bunker up. For spread out my EBtS will have much easier time, in bunkered my casket / catapults will have easier time. So this was my answer to master of terrain and how to counter his superior mobility.

Deployment

Swordie won the table edge choice, but I think that I would most likely choose the north regardless. My main idea was that he would use the hill to protect some of his troops and casket / catapult them up. However I didn't really consider that he has BSB on board... I don't know why and especially BSB with 18 range. I was so drooling on the fact that it would do good damage etc.

Well there wasn't much to be said. Bone castle in middle to create threat zone. For caskets I have from experience realized that it is usually better to field them far flank than close to other units. Main reason is that if opponent comes to get casket he will need to sacrifice some 100 - 200 points for couple turns in order to do so. Making casket in middle would be still easy for something like reavers to still destroy it and cause really bad havoc behind my lines. It wouldn't matter for something sturdy as big unit of skeleton warrior / MWBD support or tomb guard, but for archers really bad. Secondly casket explodes on death so it wouldn't cause that much damage.

------
I have to add that I was literally shaking and really really really nervous of this game. I hope it didn't affect my judgement much, but in sense I was like this little boy that was granted opportunity to play with big boys. This feeling lasted the whole game and I had never beeing so excited on warhammer game. True and honest!
---


@~Milliardo~ yep. they are vulnerable. only 135 points so sacrifice isn't that much =)

@jimmy I said it many times, you are the wisest of Kings. You are correct I deployed on a plan. Outlines of it is explained on top. Lets see how it goes ;)

@Ladril Caledor I am hoping for extra underdog bonus. I almost came with High Magic list, but then I though that HE vs HE is pooring =) To be honest against MSU that list doesn't have as much synergy.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Introduction & Deployment

#6 Post by RE.Lee »

Nice - two of my favourite battle reporters take the field! Both lists are quite unusual - Swordmasters MSU is no surprise perhaps, but Loriel has picked some surprise choices. When was the last time you saw Tomb Scorpions, Swarms, Apophas? Double Casket is interesting to see, proabaly a good idea as one might be easily overrun by the mobile elven army. Can't say who's more likely to win - but I'll be looking forward to seeing the full report!
cheers, Lee

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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 1

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Many thanks for replies at this early stage of the report! Great to see some interest with 8th edition in the new era :)

@ ~Milliardo~

They do but I expected that some of the EBTS units might be intercepting and Caskets can also defend themselves, especially if my units would be in 6" from each other. At the same time the war machines were away from the middle thus diverting some of my regiments. If I send something to hunt them down they might not be able to return to combat fast enough.

@ Jimmy

I will not hide the fact I hope you would check out the game and offer your comments! You have a vast experience with TK even if you haven't played for a long time and I am sure you can see many hidden opportunities (and not talking about EBTS units only :)).

I am also glad you tried to look at the game from the point of view of both players! I definitely assumed that Loriel has a very particular plan for this game. He even hinted on that when we talked but I also assumed he knows a lot simply because he provided a very detailed feedback on my previous games.

I have just added turn 1 so I wonder if that is what you expected :)

@ Ladril Caledor

Thanks for putting your money on me :) I definitely consider Caskets and Catapults as big threats. If possible I would like to hunt them down asap. And my initial thoughts would be to run at them fast. However, since the Hierophant was in the middle and war machines on the flanks I expected it was too beautiful to be true. For instance, I expected some of the ambushers to be used as interceptors. At the same time, as I have mentioned before, if I send fast troops to hunt down the war machines they are not helping the others and I might need that help when Knights and Stalkers are on the battle field.

I would love to face Loriel's HE too! For the first game I just asked for TK simply because I haven't played against them for very long time.

@ Loriel

Oh boy, you mentioned you are going to explain lots in details but I didn't expect that! It is awesome feedback and I am really grateful for that!

I also wanted to thank you for all the kind words. I knew you are preparing to the game and that you know a lot about my style but I didn't expect such thorough analysis!

It looks to me that you approached the game from different angle than me. I simply take my list and try to come up with the good plan. You decided to pick the units that you believe would be instrumental in countering my army's strengths and exploit weaknesses. I think it actually is good for the story! Imagine Outcasts venturing into the mysterious land on the desert, unknowingly disturbing the peace of King Loriel. He then sends some scouts to investigate and based on that appropriate force is sent to punish the intruders :)

It was very interesting to read about what you consider as my strength. For example, I always thought each player uses terrain to his advantage so I was surprised to see that you think I am doing something more. I will do my best to live up to that reputation for the future games :)

Another interesting bit is about being a safe bet player. I do remember charging with my units recklessly :D

The most interesting part is about the overall strategy, as it shows why you chose particular units. I agree TK can easily outshoot my units. 5+ with no penalties is actually very good. Catapults are good as well and Caskets are shooting devices as well.

Outmaneuver - hm, that is an interesting one. In pure speed you cannot match me but then, your movement can be supported by magic (which is great because you can move in a different pattern). EBTS rule is actually where you can do that, although it is totally different mechanism. Hence, my conclusion is that we would utilize movement phase but in a completely different way.

Point preservation - I would like you to elaborate more on that. You decided to bring a lot of units but not all of them will be close to hierophant for healing. Some of them are also constructs. On top of that they are small so crumbling will be more devastating.

I think your use of Horse Archers was superb and I simply love the unit and the way you utilized their ability during the deployment. I expected that but could not prevent it and I didn't plan to go forward unless I had a chance to avoid your archers. Which was difficult with open ground in the middle.

I find it interesting that you had very particular roles for each unit. I think it is a great way to approach any game if possible. I must admit I expected Stalkers to target Eagle Claws first since it is much easier to get out the war machines. However, I can see now why you decided to use them against DP anyway. I have small units and each hit is an automatic wound with no save.

The Knights, however, are your most versatile unit. They are dangerous to many regiments. Swordmasters and Lions don't automatically win against them, especially when you add your magic in and/or combine attacks with other units.

I cannot comment on the overall plan yet as it is too early but I really like how you created the army around general ideas and how you filled the details with particular units and the roles attached to them. Now, the question is, would that plan survive the contact with the enemy :)

The reason I chose the South was less due to the fact I could pick the hill but more to deny you the places where you could hide caskets and make them far less accessible. They would already be hard to get to but if I gave you the hill and the pyramid you would be able to protect them far better.

I also didn't plan to castle up so no reason to limit my movement options by slowing down units going through the lake and risk some crazy effects in the forest too.

I could really tell how excited you were about the game and I am glad it provided you with so much fun! I hope it continues now when we can recreate the turns and offer more insight on the things we did and why we did it!

@ RE.Lee

Glad to know we picked up your interest and I am sure you will find the battle report very interesting! I can assure you it is just the beginning!

--------

As my own deployment goes it was very interesting experience. I kind of felt like I am playing AoS game where I don't know what my opponent is going to deploy and when he is going to stop. Because of that I went for more generic approach. It means deploying reavers and eagles first and fast cavalry in a way that I can move them to avoid 1st turn shooting. I didn't do it properly as I blocked ER 2 with my own units and didn't measure properly the distance Skeleton Archers would need to reach me with their magic move.

It was also the reason why I hid my units or kept them out of range. Loriel had +1 for the first turn so I wanted to limit the impact of his shooting. I still lost one unit and some were harmed in the process.

I might have positioned Dragon Princes centrally too in order to threaten other units early with an alpha strike at Loriel's bunker. I am still undecided what was better option.

Other than that I decided to go for weighted flank rather than symmetric deployment. First of all, that makes the impact of Caskets a little smaller as they would reach to fewer number of units or rather to fewer at the same time. That means I could focus on dispelling the one that had a chance to cause more damage due to sloe proximity of my units. At the same time I had Bob the BSB here too so he could lend his 18" radius for re-rolls.

Secondly, if anything would show up there I had enough resources for active defense. I could still advance but also swift reform the units to do some damage at range and keep applying pressure on the archers and skeletons. Or, if these are too far, focus on ambushers that would be isolated.

Having more units around would also mean more difficulty to deploy ambushers well.

Well, turn 1 is up so please, let us know what you think and how do you predict the game is going to proceed.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 1

#8 Post by Loriel »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: It looks to me that you approached the game from different angle than me. I simply take my list and try to come up with the good plan. You decided to pick the units that you believe would be instrumental in countering my army's strengths and exploit weaknesses.
That is pretty much my angle when I play with High Elves. I often say that I play with reserve style, where usually every unit will have multiple different roles and go there where they are needed most. I tried this style with kings for the couple first games and quickly hit the wall with them. One of the best examples is redirecting reliably with horse archers... they are no reavers... It needs planning to do it correctly.

I think only roles is only way to get Tomb Kings to work.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Point preservation - I would like you to elaborate more on that
Oh I actually prolly just started to write something and never finished it ;) My wandering mind. Must have being due the fact that I wrote what I wrote in long period of times little by little during the game.

The thing was that I though that general strategies to actual win you with Tomb Kings needs to either somehow outmaneuvre you, or out shoot or preserve points. I didn't mean that everything was included. In my list point preservation wasn't included as main strategy. I was more considering making it a blood bath where Kings would emerge in glorious victory, by slight win.

For example truly win your list with most reliable way would be biggish archer unit, supported by royal mummies, castled up in corner. Including a light council. I personally don't like to play avoidance / points denial, so I didn't go this way.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I must admit I expected Stalkers to target Eagle Claws first since it is much easier to get out the war machines
Well that would have being naturally effective way to get rid of them. I was expecting that your dragon princes would advance really swiftly in my flanks. Thus other way to get around your armor would be caskets, but I wanted to have best possible chance of bouncing around for them. Third way to get past your armor with TK is tomb guard razored halberd (however you wouldn't risk bringing dp to that battle). So my only real option was stalkers here.

Besides other than necro knights (horse archers), your RBT didn't have such great targets to shoot. And my personal experience with those machines is so net negative that I probably couldn't even fear them ;)
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: The Knights, however, are your most versatile unit. They are dangerous to many regiments. Swordmasters and Lions don't automatically win against them, especially when you add your magic in and/or combine attacks with other units.
this is true. But with only 3 strong they will have hard time fighting against those elites as most likely you manage to deny 5 attacks from them before they swing. I considered what other models I could use against your archers. Naturally my archers in "direct" shootout will win, as long as I manage to get in range. But you could easily outmove me with terrain / range. Secondly this tactic would require the archer ranks to come closer to your rank and give better chance for your elites to reach them. No other EBtS could take that ranked archer unit without proper support. secondly what else would those knights really attack.

---------

Turn 1

When I got double 6 on magic it felt good. When the casket caused swordmasters to be removed it was really nice.

I think your reserved movement for DP1 was surprising. I truly though you would march as much as possible. I was really happy when you brought elites towards a bit, as it meant that my "strategy" was working. However this might have more to do with your being a nice sport and tossed me some bones. Swordmasters 1 will get hail of arrows soon.

----------------

"Who dares to defile my Tomb!" A hollow voice echoed in the valley. Outcast were trembling as sand beneath their feets starts to shift and creatures emerged from the depths! One of them yelled "laaarrryyyyyyy... LAAARRYYYY."
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Loriel,

Ha! So you say using Reavers requires no planning :-P

Even if you show up with the force that is not tailored for particular enemy you still should assign roles and missions for each regiment. The difference is that you usually have far less time to do so. You need to do it when the army of your opponent is presented.

Ah, so I see now that you didn't bring your best forces yet and threw me that small bone to chew on (pun intended!) :)

I am happy you don't fear my eagle claws at all!

I didn't mean it was a bad decision to send Necropolis Knights after the Archers. What I meant is that NC can be assigned other targets too, in particular if they can combine the efforts with other units.

Your opening turn was very strong. First the great result of winds of magic and then horrendous 3d6 Ld on my part. I almost lost Lions in the process too! At the same time I was wondering which target would you pick. Units on the West were more numerous so it was easier to jump to something over and over again. However, they could benefit from the re-roll from BSB. But then, some targets like Eagle Claw or Eagles have few wounds so it is easier to destroy them anyway.

My reply was disappointing as I picked the right target for the spells, that is why I moved Swordmasters fast forward. But it was risky and I should not have done it like that, just enough to get into spells range. Unfortunately, my magic ended fast and the shooting was way below average. I guess I used my luck against Galharen :P

Turn 2 is up now!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#10 Post by Loriel »

i answer from mobile, so answer is little short.

ofc reavers need planning. but the thing is that plan for them is more easily changed.

i was happy when only one missfire for ebts and could didn't show up.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#11 Post by Ladril Caledor »

When I was making my prediction I was mostly looking at the initial deployment map, and I thought that was the whole TK army and it looked really weak. I didn't take into account all those ambushers! Looks like my admittedly short run of accurately predicting Swordmaster games had come to an end...a quick scan and prediction is no substitute for proper analysis! I learned a lesson here.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#12 Post by Loriel »

now i got to real computer.

TURN 2

EBtS:

As said I was happy when most of those EBtS came out without any bigger issues and the ts shifting sands wasn't as bad, as it would guard the casket. However I truly placed those catapults badly. It should have being placed in close proximity of back line. Swordie showed real sportmanship as I forgot to roll for apophas, but sadly it didn't emerge.

Stalkers 1:

I placed my stalkers touching the hill, which meant as we concluded that they becomes visible for shooting etc. I could have placed them more to the left and get little more los for atleast some shooting / magic missiles. Secondly I could have placed them in 2 wide formation and still got full shots to the DP1. This would made them more movable as it is allowed to leave the board during movement as long you don't end your movement out side of table. This would have made them little more movable later on. I was too blinded to think anything else with them besides taking the shots to the DP 1. If I would have being true to my tactic I would placed them infront of the DP to stop those approach, but in this flank I don't think DP were such an immidiate threat.

Stalkers 2:

On retrospective I prolly should have placed those talkers that were hunting DP2 right in front of them instead in this angle. My original though was to place them behind that pyramid but in order to get them complete out of charge range that would have meant that one snake couldn't shoot at all. Besides if I would do that dp would most likely approached those caskets / capaults and my stalkers would have being left alone to do reform, them slow movement and never catch anything. I realized when i did those shots and killed 3 knights, they could just move (or match if test passed) or even charge the catapult. As I said before those stalkers had only job to deal with DP. Only reason not to place them infront of the DP would have being point preservance.

Necro1:

I realized somewhere during shooting etc, that I placed my knights right between those RBT and exposed my flanks for niche 1 shots... I don't know how else I would truly placed those knights, perhaps more the the left. But this picture is propably little off, since I could have used swarms to give atleast hard cover (we concluded for the sake of clarity that swarm is unit as well. perhaps they are hovering around ;) )

Casket:

Getting a second direct kill with casket was... in my experience unheard of... If/when we meet again in battle field, I think swordie will get extra aggro against caskets.


Desert winds & dessication:
Here I was hoping to achieve what my original plan was. Getting the elite ones advance and leaving the lowly once to be dealt with EBtS. 2 PD miscast on the last spell was really hearth stopper. 9 archers lost in the bunker will make the bunker to lost one round of combat in tarpitting. We will see soon, if the King Loriel tactical retreat was the right call!


----

@Ladril Caledor , does this mean that you changed your prediction to my victory?
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#13 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Well I think you have the advantage after the early turns Loriel. Swordmaster is certainly not out of it yet but it will be tough for the Outcasts to come back from this position. Particular as Loriel is a very thoughtful, careful player who is unlikely to make any serious mistakes from a winning position.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks for ongoing discussion! I am sure the readers appreciate so many details and I hope more will join us soon! I had no time to add turn 3 yet but I will try to do it this evening. Let me address the comments so far!

@ Loriel

I didn't count on your bad luck with EBTS units. I find it is often too harsh on TK players to lose their units or have them delayed too long to make a significant impact. It put a lot of pressure on me, even if not all of them appeared yet. Still, when I looked at the diagram it looked like I was losing units while you immediately doubled the amount of yours so the shift was significant.

It is very interesting to know in details what your decision making process was. During the game I didn't analyze what could have been another option for units placement yet. I simply tried to adjust to the new situation and form the new plan on the spot. It is a huge advantage for a TK player to have these regiments. There are so many options that it is hard to predict where they are going to appear and plan accordingly. Hence, one has very short time to do so in the game.

The positioning of the units can be fully analyzed, however, when the game is finished so I will not talk about them at the moment but I wanted to thank you for the explanation why they were in these particular spots. I guess when you do it there are immediate goals to be achieved (like shooting at Dragon Princes here) and long term goals, i.e. what to do next and where to move them in the following turns.

@ Ladril Caledor

Don't worry too much! I blame Loriel for not showing off his TK often enough for people to remember there are these units buried under the sands for millennia and that they can significantly change the situation on the board :)

I agree that this situation is tough for me but I was determined to fight my way out. One of the things I wanted to use to my advantage is to press forward with the 3 cavalry units I had pushed forward anyway but focus on new units with the rest of the army since, in my opinion at least, Stalkers and Knights seemed to be isolated. They also were positioned in a way that meant they had to work as individuals, instead of a team.

My magic phase was poor again, this time due to very low winds of magic roll. Shooting was also less than impressive but because Skeleton Archers pulled back I could comfortably turn around and prepare to take charges as I could hold against them and had units ready to counter immediately. It was not easy though as I took some risks here, e.g. joining Larry to the unit meant I would be risking a killing blow.

The question was now how many warriors I am about to lose before I get the chance to form a new battle line. Also, one needs to remember that there are still some more reinforcements to arrive!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 2

#15 Post by Iluvatar »

Hi Swordmaster and Loriel!

That game is a real treat for me: seeing both the armies I play, and two nice and tactical players with two original armies is just great. And the turn by turn posting gives additional suspense to it!

I don't post a lot these times, but that report definitely deserves some comment (even if it's short). Especially since it's a good occasion to thank you both for the good time you give us all with your frequent game reports!

As for the game, it's quite hard to predict the output currently. It's really in the balance, though I believe both of you made minor mistakes which could have changed things...
Loriel, for instance, probably should not have move backwards with archers, or at least kept a smaller distance. Keeping closer to the main battle line would make it a harder choice for Swordmaster to turn back. In addition, maybe it would have been possible to get close enough with the hierophant for support the entombed units with magic - that could swing dramatically those fights.
Swordmaster on the other hand took a big risk with the Nehekaran Knights / Archers fight. 15 archers and the Loremaster will probably kill one knight, but then knights can attempt the kill at the Loremaster. And the only possible counter charge is the small unit of swordmasters, which could very well be redirected by the remaining swarms, scorpion or Apophas (and the swordmasters would be a good target for his breath weapon...).
Another thing I noticed is the swarms overrun into the sisters' flank (after the likely kill of the eagle claw). Bob is ready for a counter charge, but that makes him predictable for the next turn. And there's still Light of Death that could put a few wounds on him, or possibly the SS1 stalkers - if only one remains, that is, since he'd need the mobility of a single base to attack Bob...

A few questions remain in the air too: what did ER2 do after combat? Are they visible to the scorpion? How many stalkers remain in SS2? And in SS1? Can the SA3 see the DPs and tie them in combat?

So my prediction is this: this turn 3 will be the determining spot for the game. If things go rightly for Loriel, the blow could be too high for SM to recover. On the other hand, if he can't do enough this turn, Swordmaster should be able to deal with the units that appeared in T2 before the new ones get into action (though the apparition spot of the remaining knights will be decisive!).

Really looking forward to the following turns! :)
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 3

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Iluvatar,

Thanks a lot for comments! I am really happy to know you enjoy the report and I am sure Loriel is too!

I definitely took the risk but I already wounded the Knights so they were 1 wound short from losing one model and I needed 4 in total to remove two. Not easy to do but possible and I trusted in Larry and his magic as well as his martial prowess to swing the balance in my favor! :)

The positioning of Sisters was indeed a mistake but I thought the shooting would be more significant and I also thought I would be able to save them with a counter charge.

To answer your questions:

ER1 reformed so that they could not be charged by Scorpion and faced catapult too.

Stalkers had 2 models in SS1 and 1 model in SS2, respectively.

I think there could have been the option for SA3 to charge Dragon Princes but we didn't check that as Loriel moved them in his turn instead.

Now turn 3 is up and I wonder what do you think about the situation now? On one hand I managed to destroy some units that threatened me but on the other I lost some and Larry is now fleeing! To spice it up I can tell you that I have just spotted one thing I didn't during the game and that could have been a good solution while there is also one thing I would have done differently.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 3

#17 Post by Loriel »

Thanks for the reply @Iluvatar.

Turn 3

Now... NOW comes the turn that really made me a sad panda... a sad sad sad panda. Something happened in my brain that didn't obviously were the best situation.

Stalker movement:
This is naturally an excuse as is any explonation to try to explain why and earth some choices were made. This was my first UB battle (if you don't count test game AoS) and it wasn't the same thing to see all the things etc on board.

That error with SS1 and NK2 positioning was something that only a total rookie player does (not player like me who has played over 100 games... but apparently it happened, and....). I can say almost without shadow of doubt should we played in real life I would never made that mistake. That positioning was one of the worst ones ever.

Archer 3 reditection:
Secondly the archer 3 unit reform on redirection close up was done without proper thinking. Should I not kill one DP then they couldn't made the charge to my hierophant bunker. With slighly different movement this would have being prevented and ma the game better.

Necro Knight emerge:
I was over confident that my NK 1 could fight those archers without worrying too much and I followed my original plan to use NK against archer units. I didn't crunch the numbers on this battle but my gut feeling is that it was "good choice".

apophas:
I though using apophas str 2 breath weapon against archer unit, should NK fail to deliver. But in this situation I though that NK2 is more than able to deal with A1. Little different position would allowed apophas to fully engulf sister unit beneath the template. I did the move without really measuring and that was another mistake made however luckily it didn't really prove bad.

Swarms:
Tomb Swarms ftw! I don't remember exactly was that other swarm scattered badly or why they were in that particular position.

When Larrys miscast -> flee occured I was really happy that it gave me another good shot to recover from the mistakes I made in this turn.

----

Hmm what did you spot that could have being better?
- Move larry behind the hill and do the magic there as he would being well protected
- Charge A1 to nk to get another round of combat and fully utilize my failure. Judging from the UB pictures you send me it could have be done.

I make a prediction that people will swift to say that Swordie will take a win on this one after T3 ;)
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 3

#18 Post by Jimmy »

Loriel I was waiting for the part where dice betrayed you and your army started acting like Tomb Kings and you haven't failed to deliver. Turn 3 hurt my eyes to watch. Those poor knights eating dust like that. :(

I do like your list however but with to talk about Prince Apo at the end of the battle.

Great game however.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 3

#19 Post by Loriel »

Jimmy wrote:Loriel I was waiting for the part where dice betrayed you....
Well at this moment (turn3) I am clearly "winner" in luck sense compared to Swordie. With magic phases, casket damage, ebts, panic tests etc.
Jimmy wrote: I do like your list however but with to talk about Prince Apo at the end of the battle.
I look into it ;) I have to admit that I have no idea how to use Apo =)
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 3

#20 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Loriel

Mistakes do happen, no matter how many games one plays, there are always factors that contribute to that. It is not to look for excuses but you simply need to remember it happens. It was already quite late, the environment was new, you were very excited, these things help to develop tunnel vision for that one important moment and then you have to deal with the consequences.

The best thing we can do about them is to have a look, without that emotional load we had during the game and learn new things. I didn't move my units properly either, I am, in fact, still learning how to use them in different situations.

On one hand 100 games sounds like a lot. But these games might or might not be with the same army. It is definitely not against the same force. There are what, 15 armies out there? Suddenly, even if you played against particular army book evenly, there are less than 10 games per book. Not including the variations in the frame of one!

It is then expected to make calls that may even look silly when you look at the game later on. So don't feel too bad about it. I know it is annoying because now you see how easy you could have avoided the problems that arose from these decisions. But that is also the beauty of the game and often can be a good foundations for a great story!

Hence, I suggest that you look at the turn and instead of beating yourself for making the moves you did tell us what would you do differently, even with the full benefit of a hindsight.

As to what I have discovered I will tell it in due time but I want people to have a look first. All I can say now that it is not what you have mentioned :)

@ Jimmy

Hm, why did you get that impression that dice betrayed Loriel? :(
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 4

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

As turn 4 is up now I will comment on these 2 situations I mentioned before.

First, I believe I should have charged the Swarm that overrun into Sisters with Larry and his Archers. I was thinking about it during the game and decided not to because I didn't like flying enemy character nearby. I destroyed him but at a cost of a miscast and failed panic check.

Accepting the fact I am looking at the situation with the benefit of a hindsight I still think it would have been the better option to charge Swarms. I would have won the combat, saved the Sisters and if the miscast occurred as it did I would have stayed in combat. I still had time to hunt down Prince Apophas.

Second option I didn't notice during the game was the target for the Eagle to charge. I should have ignored the Swarms and charge the Knights. In this way Bob would have attacked twice with his overrun and I would be able to destroy them in Loriel's turn, which was preferable as I would have been able to move. I lost one turn instead.

In general, it was a very good example how tiny details matter in the games and how I should have measure the distances in order to avoid the very dangerous situation.

Looking forward to your comments about the further development of the battle!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 4

#22 Post by Loriel »

Turn 3 reflection (again ;) ):

I don't know if the Archer charge to swarm vs, charge with eagle would really be better. You had better odds. the fact that I got 3x6 on 10 attacks was slightly better luck. I didn't do exact calculation but 2 wounds is about the expected wound count of those 10 attacks to your eagle.. Should eagle survived with one or more wounds, it would granted you +3 static resolution as well one stomp.

Miscast also occured without making too risky fireball shot, so it simply was bad luck. I mean that you didn't use like 6 pd to make sure you get that fireball off. The only thing you could have made better in that situation in my opinion is placing BOB slightly to the right so they could have got reroll.

Turn 4
Another mistake, however I though I could manage the situation without swarms. I should turned swarms so that they could bounce larry from the board, or atleast turn larrys direction so it would run away off board.I decided that horse archers main duty is going to bounce larry off board. Sadly they were too far away to even try theoretical charge.

I realized that larry was going to make rally test on normal ld as the unit size wasn't reduced below 25% I needed one wound to accomplish only snake eye roll. There was also chance that I made too many wounds and cause larry to become lone character and subsequently rally on ld 9. I made that my priority objective during that round, and I was happy when snake eye roll requirement was met.

Casket damage output was mosntrous in this game. Lady luck was really smiling on me (or better yet mocking Swordie) But this result will really blind me from their true potential, which isn't nearly as great as shown here. One thing about nehekharan lore is that it isn't optimal lore against swordie msu and thus giving dices to light of death is more profitting. Against many other army doing double casket for damage output will see hard time without extra modifier and hindered performance of hierophant.

Second priority was to protect hierophant somehow. I planned to use power stone big version skullstorm and shoot it towards archers, or lion / swordmasters. I would have done it with 6 pd if I would have being in base contact or even closer to DP as it might saved my hierophant with niche miscast result. I though about doing bigger version of dessication using more dices for it, but I still wanted to utilize other spells and miscast on far end wouldn't really help me much, unless it was dimensional cascade. I learned a new thing about the game that you can dispel with wizard dispel bonus even if the wizard is fleeing. I have always though (and played) that fleeing wizards are not allowed to dispel, but apparently there is no rule in book nor faq that would deny it. In the game we first let dessication hit, but then Swordie pointed the fac ot out for me. Besides with extra DD most likely it would be complished without the modifier.

On outcast turn 4 my horsies received 4 damage from bt and there was only one left. I feared much when hierophant is going to die that I will fail ld 5 crumble rolls (whic was really likely as I was forced to do two of them before I had a chance of bouncing larry out of battle field) I rolled 6 on first crumble test and saw my hope of getting points out from larry vanish, making casket and archer unit my only hope of scoring them.

I wasn't still throwing my towel to the corner. With some luck I had possibility to kill both RBT and Larrys unit with casket or Archers 2, shoot swordmasters of the board with archers 3 and kill those DP who took my hierophant with scorpion. Lone casket might kill on death that lone dragon prince. Sad part was that in order to actual win the game I need to have BoB slain also. Well lucky casket again. possible support with archers 3 might do it.

---

there is slight error in the picture as your lone dragon prince turned towards casket.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Turn 4

#23 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Loriel,

I will not comment on turn 4 yet but would like to continue on our discussion about turn 3.

I think the charge with Archers was better because it was safe and in addition it allowed me to consolidate the units into new formation. Your regiments were split too but with 2 archer units on the hill I could have had better ranged control.

From the point of view of a miscast it is also better. Yes, I should have positioned BSB better but it is also good idea to avoid the test entirely (which being in close combat guaranteed) than to have a re-roll.

That attack, with combined follow up from Griffon and Eagle against the Necropolis Knights would allow me to deal with 3 of your units in a single turn while at the same time re-dressing the ranks smoothly. And keep Larry in action! :)

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Full Game

#24 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Remaining turns are on and the game report is almost finished. I decided to skip the phases details. It takes a lot of time to add them and in the 5th and 6th turns it was rather clear what happened from the diagrams and description.

I really hope to read some more comments from the readers as we put quite some effort with Loriel to give you insight thoughts on our decision making. Would be great to get some feedback before closing remarks :)

I will get back to Loriel's comment on turn 4.

Yes, I have to agree. I really thought these Swarms are looking into the right direction but I was kind of lucky with the Horse Archers. I think in the situations like these you really have to have back up plan because the reward (600+ points) was too much to let it slip through your fingers.

The combination of winds of magic, channeling and caskets makes the supply of power dice one of the most reliable in the game. Add to that a titan and your magic is great. Sure, you might still find you are competing for power dice to cast all the spells but what is great here is the huge choice of things to do and that makes it more difficult for the opponent too.

As to the number of casualties I suffered, well, what can I do? :)

I was of course happy to get the Hierophant, if only for the sake of getting expensive character and bonus points for the general. But the crumbling that followed did help too.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Full Game

#25 Post by Loriel »

Really unorganized rambling and thoughs

Last turns
here the charge with archers was really due ... well just do something without really thinking it through. During the battle I most likely lost remaining of my focus. With little different approach I had small chance still turning the game around. I usually play until it is end, thinking about rocky balboa theme song. Many times games can turn with some rather odd result around in last turns.

----

My personal take on hierotitan is really complex. Perhaps the reason is that it tends to be monster that is used to maximize magical output, but in many cases it really didn't provide the needed punch to justify the two hundred point cost. I seldom play multiple wizards and propably that is one reason why I don't value titan as much as many other does. I usualy don't even value caskets own spell but rather the extra dices. that is in my opinion the true power of casket.

---

This game was really funny on the fact that I wouldn't say that you my dear swordie had a single exceptionally good luck during the game. most of your results were rather average or below average. Me on the other hand got tons of fortune during magic (or unfortune from your behalf. mainly casket damage, winds of magic) On the other hand I didn't feel that I got exceptional unlucky during the game. Most of my rolls were average or above average.

I wouldn't consider horse archer result "lucky" but rather situation that occured with your better playing compared to my worse playing. I needed to be exceptional lucky to have them around, when they were facing hierophant crumble as well with rbt.

In this particular list losing hierophant didn't have as big impact as it usually have. I didn't plan to have lore of nehekhara impacting the game as much compared to dispelling your spells. I considered that caskets are going to be my main magic in this particular game. I usually think ahead that I will lose hierophant by turn 4,5 and that is acceptable casualty. And in my opinion losing hierophant doesn't have nearly as devastating impact for Tomb Kings in general. I think many players overspend tons of resources to protect the hierophant and ultimately ends up losing the game because of it. I had one though during my strategy that you might force your way in to the hierophant and kill most of the archers anyway, hopefully leave me to deal with your forces with my elites. hierophant death meant almost autolosing whole core, catapults and most likely caskets. It wouldn't autolose any of the constructs or swarms around. The unacceptable fact was that you were able to break that with mere 160 point investment (and my bad redirectioning ;) )

But all in all. this was really nice game and I enjoyed playing it at enjoyed analyzing it afterwards very much. I would like to play rematch with almost same list, (little tweaking) but same concept. Once again thanks for the game!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Full Game

#26 Post by Jimmy »

Gents, easily my favourite battle report of 2015 until the rematch of course. What an incredible back and forth battle of wills. I'm on a mobile device so won't comment that deeply just yet but one observation I did make is I think perhaps the caskets both targeted the same unit of White Lions, this is an error as light of death can only affect a unit once per turn.

More to come.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - Full Game

#27 Post by Loriel »

You are absolutely right Jimmy on casket. Honest mistake and apologises for it. luckily it didn't effect the result too much.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#28 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Now that the report is finally finished I can address further comments :)

@ Loriel

Again, don't worry! I believe the late hours and excitement had some impact here. Although it is quite strange considering that a Tomb King should feel no emotions nor tiredness :D

Oh, I am not saying Hierotitan is a must. I like your approach and I understand the reasons why you chose this path. I am sure you were happy with dual Caskets performance this game!

Don't worry about the fact we didn't remember about the rule Jimmy mentioned. Even if it had some more significant impact on the game it is still ok. Mistakes like that happen and the best we can do is to play it correct next time!

So, once again, many thanks for all the comments and the game itself! =D>

@ Jimmy

Many thanks, Jimmy! Such a comment from Tomb King himself is a fantastic reward and I am very happy that we provided the report that brought so much entertainment.

Looking forward to more detailed feedback whenever you find time.

As to the re-match it would be great to do it but I cannot promise when at this moment. I have some games to play in an online tournament and I would also like to try Kings of War. But I will definitely add it to the "to do" list and I am sure we will find suitable time with Loriel at some stage.

We will make sure you know about it before hand!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#29 Post by Ferny »

Hi guys,

Just logging in to say thanks, followed with interest.

Very limited comments because Tomb Kings are such a foreign army to me it's impossible to fully understand decisions etc, so focus as usual on the elves.

1. Given the comments everyone made about the juicyness of the war machines/caskets, especially given their threat to your small units (as caskets proved), I was surprised you didn't follow through on them.
2. Mind you, I was doubly surprised when the tomb kings advanced centrally (baiting a classic MSU surrounding??? :shock: ), so I can see the temptation to ignore and go for the big guns
3. Particularly given crumble.
4. TK - what was the reasoning behind the hokey cokey - advancing then retreating? I guess it doesn't effect archery performance, just spell range, but why move at all if just to then retreat - reminds me of when someone moves a knight or bishop up too far and just gets pushed back by a pawn?
5. Swordie, I think in an earlier game vs TK you formed a double line of sorts to protect yourself from sandy ambush. This time no such caution and you had to completely reform your lines. I'm not sure how else one can respond to lots of entombed units - this being a key threat of theirs - but did you have a plan to deal with them, or just rely on planning once they emerged?

This game had some serious swingometer action going on. It was clear from mid way through to me that it would be very bloody, but it was not clear to me until actually reading the result what the outcome was. Very close battle it seemed and very swingy. Hope (and sure) you both enjoyed it. Looking forward to the rematch vs the High Magic elves :wink:
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#30 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

Many thanks! I am really happy you enjoyed the report and I am sure Loriel is too!

1. I did! Please notice that I sent 4 fast cavalry units to hunt them down. 1 squadron of Reavers didn't make it at all. Another one made it to the Catapult but I risked them to fight Tomb Scorpion that was blocking the path anyway. It didn't work.

I had to avoid it with Dragon Princes (hence that move around the lake) and when the opportunity arose to hunt down the main prize I didn't hesitate to go after hirophant. Second unit of heavy cavalry was diverted by Stalkers and I charged in too because I was safer in combat than not. I could have ignored the archers but when I measured the distance it was a risky charge (to Casket or to the Catapult).

So it is not that I didn't try, Loriel successfully used his units to block the path and I had a choice to either attack newcomers or to try and outmaneuver them but risk being shot at.

2. We need Loriel to explain that move :) But as I said above, I decided to go for hierophant once the opportunity was there as I think I gained more in the long run by doing so.

5. The reason was I had no idea what Loriel brought to the game. I didn't know his army at all. So I didn't know how many and what units are going to ambush me. Because of that I did react to the situation and tried to adopt to quickly changing landscape. Since Loriel spread his forces and decided to attack few targets at the same time I made my decisions. That meant I could risk attacks with Dragon Princes as the targets I picked were not supported and could use my local superiority as the emerging units were too far from the general and archers.

I definitely enjoyed the challenge and I hope Loriel had fun too, despite the fact this time Elves were victorious.

I am sure we are going to have a re-match at some stage, be it with exactly the same forces or different armies. But it is interesting to see that you are more interested in another civil war game :)

Cheers!
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