MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

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Loriel
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#31 Post by Loriel »

@ferny

4. Well one of my "grand" schemes was trying to get his elites from the back lines, and when it looked that lions / DP / Swordmasters advanced I naturally considered that retreat was better option. I also tried to keep my original strategy alive in short summary:

Archers Bone castle / bait unit for elites
Stalkers -> DP
Necroknights -> archers
Swarms -> RBT / Redirection
Scorpions -> Reserve
Warmachines -> To spread out MSU due bounce and higher chance of hitting with catapults + shooting behind hills

When I adopted this kind of role system for kings I found out that they can perform better. As I always played High Elves with reserve style that I tend to asset the best course of action every turn, usually with Kings slow movement usually makes that kind of approach really hard.

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I like the idea that people suggest High Magic list in here. I am willing to try it, however I can say for fact that it ain't the optimal choice against MSU. But I have a feeling that it wouldn't be the worst option either ;)
High Elves since Aug 2010: Tot /W / L / D - 100 / 75 / 23 / 2
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Ferny
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#32 Post by Ferny »

Haha, I'm only interested in the civil war because a) I understand what's going on much better, and b) well...I like elves :lol: . If you guys play each other Ogres and Orks I'd still watch :mrgreen: .

Given the comments at the start then, I think congrats to Loriel on blocking access to the vulnerable looking machines, although on balance SM was happy enough with the trade off which gave him a route to the king. I know I found the battle quite hard to read, not least because of EBTS but also because with MSU units look severely depleted and yet swordie still manages to make these last few warriors hit home. I think also as SM says, the plan changed when you blocked him out and he re-focussed on the leader as the main prize. Question - was this risky with such weakened units?

Loriel - your bait achieved the intended result (and I was gobsmacked to see you do it, because I know you follow SMs reports so you'd know you were presenting an easy opportunity), but do you think it back fired with exposing the king? Would he have been safer if you hadn't moved forward so aggressively T1. Would that be at the cost of not having moved his backline, and thus free up space for EBTS, and so not worth it?

Question for both of you - was there any point where you felt it was tipping one way or t'other? SM writes reports for suspense and you both play till the bitter end, but to my eye it looked like really at any point either of you could have one (or more to the point, you'd both grind yourselves down to a draw). Did it feel different live?
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#33 Post by Loriel »

well at turn 1 I wasn't at range of anything, but perhaps the full desert wind movement forward was little too aggressive ;) But perhaps Swordie wouldn't advance forward as much if I would stayed back to avoid the str 3 death zone. dunno hard to say.

I could have protect my hierophant unit from that Dragon prince charge with the other archer unit should I anticipated casualty, which obviously i didn't. I originally placed them so they block the path to the Hierophant, but when they suffered one wound, they got clear path. So that was result of poor placement. I could have for example made the unit one file wider and effectively keep the hierophant alive for atleast 1 more turn. -> subsequently not losing units to crumble as much would helped also. That might have being enough to swing the battle in my favor again. For example I would have most likely scored larry+archer as I would have being able to bounce fleeing unit with charge to out of table or atleast closer to edge.

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Well I though that in turn 2 this game shifted really in my favor and perhaps i was little blinded by it. In my opinion the really poor placement of stalkers + necroknight was one turning point and other was the failed blocking of dp to my hierophant unit, but then when larry took of in panic I had glimpse of hope again.
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Ladril Caledor
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#34 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Loriel glad to hear you are interested in playing your High Magic list against the MSU's. Personally I'd prefer if you didn't try and optimise too much for the match up. I'd rather see a general tournament list based on your High Magic article, against a general Outcasts list.

I have been running High Magic lists a lot recently but I'm yet to face MSU with them. I'd love to see how that match up plays out with a couple of top generals.
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#35 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Great to see that the discussion is going on!

@ Ferny

I hope that the fact the report was more difficult to read didn't take away from the entertainment. I also believe that Loriel's excellent posts where he described his decisions and plans made it more clear and enjoyable! I would like to avoid the situation where the description is not clear enough to explain the flow of battle. If there is something you would like me to correct or change, please, let me know so I can do it better for future reports!

There is always an element of risk and there is always a need to stay alert and be able to adapt. I think that was the most interesting part of our game. We both had some ideas and plans but they are never bullet proof. When your enemy makes one decision you receive more information and you use it to update your plan. It may mean you switch the objectives or that you continue to achieve them by different path.

It was risky to use total of 4 knights to achieve so much. But as you could see, the combination of flank charge, banner and quite a few attacks from only 2 models was enough to get the general of the enemy army. In that particular case the risk was connected to the question: Can they crumble the enemy fast enough?

I had them already depleted so I would achieve nothing by not charging with them. And I had the advantage of armor vs low strength attacks.

I definitely felt that pressure mounting many times during the game. I would not call it that I felt as if anybody is clearly winning because during the battle I was simply occupied with adapting to quickly changing circumstances. I knew I had to be careful because there were many new units to show up but I didn't know how many and what regiments are going to enter the battle. That was the main plan then, to try to achieve small goals each turn and be ready to spot opportunities as soon as they showed up. That is why I could charge the skeletons with dragon princes or Stalkers and Knights with BSB.

However, it was very tough in the first half as a whole because Loriel's ranged attacks were brutal while I could not reply in kind despite having the potential to do so. It is not a complaint, just the fact I technically could go punch for punch there but didn't achieve that.

It felt good to be able to charge into these combats as they gave me the opportunity to finally destroy some enemy units but it was quickly "balanced" by that silly panic check and Larry's flight :) At this moment I really thought I will have hard time but was determined to fight to the end and at least make the possible defeat as small as I could.

@ Loriel

That's the beauty of that game, your plans always have to be updated depending on what the enemy does. Of course, if you can make your opponent to react rather than act it is a great achievement in itself. That is why I also tried to react to your placement of the regiments in a way that put you under some pressure as well.

For example, since your NK1 were isolated behind the lines I turned and focused my shooting at them. Pity I could not do much but these 2 wounds were enough to destroy 2 Knights before they could attack and that in itself mitigated the risk I took by joining the unit with the Loremaster.

I think that having ambushing units like yours makes it even more difficult for the enemy to adapt.

@ Ladril Caledor

We talked with Loriel about possible games. We actually have a few ideas to try but I guess we will try to organize another civil war match at some stage. It may not be as soon as next week yet but we will definitely update you on the situation and as we are going to play it over universal battle you might be able to watch it live too!

Once again, many thanks for your feedback!

Cheers!
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Ferny
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#36 Post by Ferny »

Thanks for the replies guys. Probably gonna be my final post before going into hibernation mode again.

I should clarify, I meant the flow of battle was hard to read, not the battle report itself, which was as ever immaculate presented and a joy to read.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: MSU HE vs Tomb Kings - 16.07

#37 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Oh, no, Ferny! Don't leave us, we need you!
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