MSU HE vs Beastmen - 27.06

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

I have recently enrolled for UB tournament organized by Warhammer-Board, a German website community who invited some international players. It is 3 round small event using ETC player's pack.

In the first round I had a pleasure to play against Eloriel, one of the organizers of the tournament who decided to bring Beastmen this time (he usually plays WE or DE or WoC).

Beastmen - Army List

Doombull *General*, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Shield, Crown of Command, Talisman of Perservation, Dragonhelm - 368

Doombull, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Shield, Arabyan Carpet, Armour of Destiny - 366

Doombull, Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Gnarled Hide, Sword of Swift Slaying, The other Tricksters Shard, Dragonbane Gem, Armour of Fortune - 346

Gorebull, Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance - 248

Slugtonque - 190 - Lore of Undeath

Bray Shaman, level 1, Dispel Scroll - 105 - Lore of Shadow

Bray Shaman, level 1, Chalice of Dark Rain - 120 - Lore of Shadow

10 Gor Herd, Mark of Slaanesh, Musican, Standard - 95
10 Gor Herd, Mark of Slaanesh, Musican, Standard - 95
10 Ungor Herd, Full Command - 65
10 Ungor Herd, Full Command - 65
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38
5 Ungor-Raider, Mark of Slaanesh, Musician - 38

5 Harpies - 55
5 Harpies - 55

Totaly:2474 Points

Very interesting list! It is clear that Minotaurs are here to charge, stomp, trample and basically destroy the enemies. They are also well protected with good armor and even better ward save. Multitudes of Raiders are to ensure the right placement of the Minotaurs and to block potential reinforcements. With mark of Slaanesh it is great deal as the opponent has to kill them all to get rid of the problem.

Addition of Slugtongue with Lore of Undeath is a good trick too because he can affect a few nasty unit on the enemy side (in particular cannons) and then add to the pool of redirectors or even summon some hard hitting regiments too.

You would notice that the army is above 2400 points as accordingly to ETC rules Beastmen can have more points to spend if they don't take particular choices:

Maximum unit size is increased to 550 points
May take Putrid Blightkings from Warhammer End Times: Glottkin
● Additional 75 points for the army size (Up to 300 maximum) 1 choice each
● Take Marks of Chaos as in Warhammer End Times: Glottkin 1 choice
● Slugtongue 1 choice

I decided to take my recent version of the army with a little adjustment due to possibility to play against creatures that can regenerate and blood and glory scenario.

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster, Earthing Rod, Armor of Fortune, Obsidian Amulet - 320
Bob the Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon (Swiftsense), Dragon Armor, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield - 331

16 Archers, Full Command - 190
15 Archers, Full Command - 180
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, Musician, Bows, Spears - 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, Musician, Bows, Spears - 115

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 175
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Lions, Banner, Musician, Gleaming Pennant - 150

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
9 Sisters - 126

Army Total: 2397

As usual let's have a look at the opposing army with more details:

Doombull - General - 4+ armor save, 3+ against the shooting, 3++ ward and 2++ ward against flaming attacks. It is very hard to break through these defenses. In particular on a model that has T5 and 5W. Doombull hits back very hard too and every combat he wins adds to the already impressive amount of attacks. What is more, Minotaur characters inflict d3 impacts and stomps are also good to have. Potentially, a single doombull has a good chance of killing entire units of mine in a single combat.

I cannot harm it with magic missiles because these are usually flaming attacks. I observed, however, that Elo likes to join units with his characters for time being to better distribute the shooting attacks among his characters and regiment so that they arrive in combat in better shape. Since this character is on foot he can still be diverted. My approach would be to avoid combat with such monstrosities as long as possible and feed them with units that may not be worthy much or would take them out of combat for longer.

Doombull - 2+ armor save, 4++ ward save, 2++ against flaming attacks, this characters is the most dangerous model for my army because he also has ASF thanks to his magical sword. He will have re-rolls against Swordmasters and Lions, for example. Same story, has to be avoided although wounding him with single bolts from bolt throwers is more likely than the general of the army.

Doombull - Flying Carpet - very fast and dangerous too but with worse protection. 3++ ward save is of course fantastic but 4+ armor save means I can at least try some magic missiles and even regular arrows can be lucky enough. He is also alone and exposed meaning out of three doombulls I have the best chance to target this one and he was my priority. Another reason why I wanted to hunt him down is that he can get to my bolt throwers faster than others.

BSB - adds to the killing potential of the army but is the most vulnerable of all minotaurs. Ideally breaking him in combat is the best way to destroy that character but close combat is where the minotaurs want to be. If that happens I would try to direct attacks at him to be able to kill him. This army is Ld8 only so destroying BSB is very important too.

Slugtongue - this guy has a potential to cripple my army before the game even starts. That is why I decided to deploy at the very edge of the deployment to make it more difficult for him to reach all the units and hopefully limit the impact of his special rule. Another interesting thing is that he will use Lore of Undeath and that is the first time I would ever face one. In fact, Larry the Loremaster also has a chance to use signature spell from that lore and I might use it for my own benefit.

Bray Shamen - this guys are here mainly to provide channeling but shadow magic can be very useful too. They are also worthy some more points than the units and are possible to hunt down so I will look for the opportunities to catch them.

Gor Herds - very small units, but Slaanesh marked so they would flee nowhere. They will be protecting the wizards for sure and I expect them to stay behind but with my fast cavalry I have a chance to catch them and will definitely try to do so.

Ungor Herds - delivery systems for Minotaurs as due to base size they fit in nicely. Question was how Elo would assign his characters, would they go to a single unit or spread them among two regiments. Potentially provide some wounds to balance the combat results but with huge amount of attacks by minos that might not be enough. It still might be a good idea to shoot at them to get points as well as deprive minos from living shield.

Ungor Riders - wow, how many units again? the interesting part is that Elo can choose how many (if at all) he wants to have in ambush. These little critters are very annoying because they can shoot, they don't panic and may at least re-direct or simply tie in combat other regiments. I also expect them to interfere with the movement phase so that Minos can reach combats they want to be in. The good thing is that I have units that can comfortably take them out one on one and I will use that advantage.

Harpies - also dangerous, very fast and with more attacks, have to be eliminated real quick. Riders are slower and can be blocked, flying units cannot and that is huge difference.

My general plan was to deploy far back and use shooting superiority to inflict damage. At the same time I wanted to use my own units to outflank the enemy and get around to the wizards that are not well defended and easier to destroy. Since they are all worth 100-200 points each it is a good amount to get some advantage. I would try to destroy all these small units on the way as well and with some bonuses for banners I think I can earn some points to balance out inevitable casualties.

At the same time I would delay Minotaurs and re-redirect them using their frenzy to make them go away from my regiments. With some luck I may even be able to hunt down one of them.

Terrain


The map called "Burning down the house"

Here are the rules for terrain under ETC format:

Hills - As per BRB description of an ordinary hill (p. 118 first 5 paragraphs, i.e. without the“Examples of hills” subsection) with following additional explanations :
- Line of Sight: Hills block Line of Sight.

Forests - As per BRB description of an ordinary forest (p. 119 first6 paragraphs, i.e. without “Mysterious Forests” subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Line of Sight: Forests are Interfering terrain providing Soft Cover for units, as described in BRB. For Line of Sight purposes Forests count as being of infinite height. This implies that units shooting trough forest will always suffer Soft Cover penalty, even if shooting from a hill or building.

Lake - As per BRB description of a Normal River (p. 120 first 5 paragraphs, i.e. without “Mysterious Rivers” subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Line of Sight: Lakes are non-interfering terrain features.
- Lakes are Water Features.

Obstacle: Wall - As per BRB description of an ordinary Wall (p. 123 with common rules for Obstacles,p.122) with following additional explanations:
- Walls definition of a unit “behind” is applied only to units actually defending the obstacle (i.e.aligned with it and touching it).
- Line of Sight: Obstacles are non-interfering terrain features.

Ruins - As per BRB description of an ordinary marshland (p.121 first 3 paragraphs, i.e. without “Examples of Marshland”
subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Ruins are NOT Water Features.
- Line of Sight: Ruins are non-interfering terrain features, providing Hard Cover for all units withmajority of their models in the feature.

Impassable
As the title says - infinite height, impassable terrain.

Deployment


Deployment of the armies


After vanguard and Slugtongue attacks

Slugtongue got:

Ryze - Grave Call - summons infantry up to 50 or 100 points or monstrous infantry up to 150 points
Akar'aran - The Dark Riders - summons cavalry, monstrous cavalry or chariots up to 150 points

I won the roll off and got the first turn!

Outcasts - Turn 1


Fast cavalry is fast!

Elves moved on the flanks in order to envelop the enemy, their favorite tactics. The center remained stationary, the foe was still far away and out of range of the archers. But not for the magic missiles. Larry the Loremaster managed to cast medium fireball at gors irresistibly and used his earthing rod to contain the feedback. Luckily for him he didn't forget his spells thanks to that safety valve!

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 2,4 --> 6:5 (one channel for Beastmen)
Iceshard at Gors with Slugtongue: 5,5,5 + 2 = 17, no dispel attempt (Edit: Clearly a mistake, I kept forgetting about Mark of Slaanesh)
2d6 Fireball at Gors with Slugtongue: 1,6,6 - Irresistible Force --> 4,6 = 10 hits, 7 wounds --> Miscast: 4,6 --> re-rolled with Earthing Rod to 1,6 --> 2 archers die

Shooting Phase Details

Eagle Claws at gors with Slugtongue: 4+ to hit --> 5 hits --> 2 at Slugtongue, 1 wounds, failed regeneration; 3 at the unit, no wounds inflicted
Reavers at respective riders: no casualties

Beastmen - Turn 1


Beastmen try to seize the initiative

Beastmen used their primal cunning and converged around their big Minotaur leaders that moved forward to reach squishy Elves as soon as possible. Some riders obeyed the orders of Shaman leaders and grouped behind the hill to provide protection. Finally, the riders on the flanks took the fight to the enemy. And while the ones on the left flank could not shift the reavers, the bands on the right broke their enemy! Fortunately for the Elves their steeds were fast enough to take them to the temporary safety.

(Edit: Please, not that G2 failed their Swift Reform test)

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 1,1 --> 3:2 (one successful channel for each side)
Ryze: 1,2,3 + 2 = 8 --> failed

Combat Phase Details

ER1 vs Riders: Elves 3+ with re-roll --> 3 hits, 1 wound; steeds 4+ --> 1 hit, 0 wounds; riders 4+ (failed primal fury test) --> 1 hit, 1 wound, saved on 5+ --> draw
ER2 vs 2 bands of riders: Elves 3+ with re-roll --> 5 hits, 2 wounds; steeds 4+ --> 1 hit, 0 wounds; raiders 5+ with re-roll (passed primal fury test but -1 to hit due to obstacle) --> 4 hits, 3 wounds, no saves --> Reavers break on a roll of 9

Outcasts - Turn 2


Outflanking continues

Elves continue their outflanking maneuvers and at the same time consolidate their positions in the center. They are already under the direct threat of one of the Doombulls charge but the main enemy unit is still too far to attack.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 1,5 --> 6:6 (one channel for Beastmen)
2d6 Fireball at Flying Doombull: 1,3,6 + 2 = 12 --> dispelled on the roll of 2,2,5,5 + 2 = 16
Boosted Burning Gaze at Flying Doombull: 2,3,5 + 2 = 12 failed to cast

Shooting Phase Details

Eagle Claws at Flying Doombull: 3+ and 4+ to hit, 1 hit, 1 wound, warded on a roll of 5+
Sisters of Avelorn at Flying Doombull: 3+ due to long range, 3 hits, 0 wounds
Archers A1 at Flying Doombull: 4+ to hit (long range), 8 hits, 1 wound, saved
Archers A2 at Flying Doombull: 5+ to hit (long range, move), 7 hits, 0 wounds

Combat Phase Details

ER1 vs Riders: Elves 3+ with re-roll --> 3 hits, 3 wounds; steeds 4+ --> 3 hits, 2 wounds --> dead unit

Beastmen - Turn 2


Beastmen keep pressing forward

Flying Doombull, annoyed by some Elves shooting at him, charges at the eagle claw and reduces it to splinters (Edit: needed 8+ to charge). Ungors on the extreme flanks try again to get rid of pesky Reavers but this time they lose badly and that puts some of the more vulnerable units in a bad position.

Minotaurs rush forward without paying attention to expendable riders even as they rush to intercept outflanking Elves. Beastmen herds become more and more divided.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 5,6 --> 11:6 (no channels)
Boosted Miasma on ER1: cast on a roll 2,2,4,5,5 + 1 = 19 --> no dispel attempt --> d3 = 4 --> -2
Akar'aran: cast on 2,3,3,3,4 + 2 = 17 --> dispelled on a roll of 2,2,3,5,5,6 + 2 = 25

Combat Phase Details

ER1 vs Riders: Elves 4+ with re-rolls --> 3 hits, 2 wounds; riders (primal fury failed) 4+ --> 3 hits, 1 wound, saved; steeds 5+ --> 1 hit, 0 wounds --> Riders fail break test and are caught in pursuit
ER2 vs 2 units of Riders: Elves 3+ with re-rolls --> 2 hits, 1 wound; Steeds 4+ --> 1 hit, 1 wound; Riders fail to inflict casualties --> left unit breaks, right units holds

Outcasts - Turn 3


Elves remove first layer of living shield

Elven units attacked blocking rider bands. Dragon Princes and Swordmasters defeated their enemies easily. Tired and under the influence of a spell reavers attacked gors with Slugtongue but could not break them. Would they hold long enough for reinforcements to arrive?

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 5,5 --> 10:5 (no channels)
d6 Fireball: 1,2 + 2 = 5 --> dispelled on 1,2 + 2 = 5
Burning Gaze: 2,5 + 2 = 9 --> dispelled on 2,4,6 + 2 = 14
Iceshard Blizzard at Minotaurs: 4,4 + 2 = 10 --> no dispel attempt
Spirit Leach on BSB: 2,4,4 + 2 = 12 --> no dispel attempt --> Elves (Ld9 + 2 = 11) < Beastmen (Ld8 + 5 = 13) --> no wounds

Some Shooting Phase Details:

Archers A1 at Minotaurs: 7 hits, 1 hit at each Minotaur, BSB used his Charmed Shield, 3 wounds against Ungors
Eagle Claw single bolt: missed

Some Combat Phase Details:

ER1 vs Gors: Elves 4+ with re-rolls at Gors --> 1 hit, 0 wounds; Gors 3+ (failed primal fury) --> 1 hit, 1 wound, saved; Steeds 4+ --> 1 hit, 1 wound --> Gors pass break test

Beastmen - Turn 3


Minotaurs give in to their bloodgreed!

Minotaurs have had enough of waiting and charged the Sisters who dared to block their path. Brave Elven maidens were utterly destroyed but slowed down the rampage of the beasts. (Edit: With Iceshard on Mino-Bus had Ld7 and failed their frenzy check even with a re-roll from the BSB.)

In the meantime Bray Shamen frantically run to hide among Gors and harpies with riders were surrounding reavers to help Slugtongue. Fortunately for him, Reavers failed to break his few bodyguards again. (Edit: Ungors U1 failed their swift reform test and only changed the formation.)

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 2,5 --> 7:6 (one successful channel for Elves)
Boosted Miasma: 1,2,4 + 1 = 8 failed to cast
Akar'aran: 3,3,5,5 + 2 = 18 --> dispelled on a roll of 1,1,2,3,4,5 + 2 = 18

Some Combat Phase Details:

ER1 vs Gors: Elves 3+ with re-roll --> 3 hits (all at the unit), 1 wound; Steeds 4+ --> 1 hit, 0 wounds --> 0 casualties from Slugtongue and Gor --> draw due to banner (Edit: I think we made a mistake here as there was no musician among Gors anymore so I should have win that by 1.)

Outcasts - Turn 4


Elves continue their attack!

The situation became even more complex. On the North Archers moved forward to distract Minotaurs and to buy more time for the assault units to hunt down vulnerable hordes and enemy wizards hiding on the South.

Dragon Princes destroyed their foes again. Swordmasters spotted exposed flank of gors with two enemy wizards and charged in, won combat decisively but didn't catch the fleeing beastmen. Unfortunately, Ellyrian Reavers lost the combat against single gor and Slugtongue, broke and were run down in pursuit.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 1,6 --> 7:6 (no channels)
Burning Gaze at Flying Doombull: 4,6 + 2 = 12 --> no dispel attempt --> 2 hits, 0 wounds
Fireball at Flying Doombull: 2,6 + 2 = 10 --> no dispel attempt --> 4 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saved
Spirit Leach at Flying Doombull: 1,5,6 + 2 = 14 --> dispelled with a roll of 1,3,4,5,6,6

Shooting Phase Details

Archers A2 at Flying Doombull: 5+ (move, long range) --> 7 hits, 0 wounds
Eagle Claw single at Flying Doombull: 3+ --> hits, wounds, no ward --> d3 multiplied to 2 wounds

Some Combat Phase Details:

ER1 vs Gor and Slugtongue: 2 Elves attack gor --> 0 hits, 1 wounds Slugtongue but he regenerates; Steeds fail to wound --> ER lose by 1 and fail break test

(Edit: I think I made a mistake here, I should have allocated the attacks at standard bearer as it would mean I would win the combat at least by musician.)

Beastmen - Turn 4


Minotaurs separate to hunt alone!

Flying Doombull hunted down second Eagle Claw with easy while his brethren moved out of their pack and started hunting down units individually, each going after different Elven unit.

Harpies spotted the chance for revenge when Swordmasters exposed their flank to the attack. The warriors of Hoeth fought well but broke from combat anyway. They were lucky to flee though but it was clear that hot pursuits were a mistake and beastmen wizards will have a chance to escape now.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 3,5 --> 8:5 (no channels)
Boosted Miasma: 3,4,6,6 --> IF --> miscast result: 1,6 --> single wound on Gor --> 6 dice lost --> end of magic phase

Some Combat Phase Details:

Harpies vs Swordmasters: Harpies 4+ to hit ---> 6 hits (out of 9 attacks) --> 4 + to wound --> 4 wounds --> 5+ saves --> no saves; Swordmasters --> 3+ to hit, 4 attacks --> 2 hits, 2+ to wound --> 2 wounds --> steadfast, failed break test

Outcasts - Turn 5


Evading maneuvers

Elven units were hard pressed but they used their superior training to execute well organized march moves and avoid the rampaging Minotaurs where possible. Sometimes it required trusty eagle to distract bloodthirsty beasts.

At the same time Larry and Archers tried to inflict some damage at the distance but could not land the killing blow just yet.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 1,6 --> 7:6 (no channels)
Burning Gaze at Flying Doombull: 3,5 + 2 = 10 --> no dispel attempt --> 5 hits, 1 wound, saved
2d6 Fireball at Flying Doombull: 1,1,4 + 2 = 8 failed to cast

Shooting Phase Details

Archers A1 at a single Gor: 6+ to hit (long range, hard cover) --> 4 hits, 0 wounds
Archers A2 at Flying Doombull: 4+ to hit --> 8 hits, 1 wound, saved

Beastmen - Turn 5


Minotaurs try to catch fleet on foot Elves

Four angry Minotaurs moved around again, trying to catch the Elves who kept avoiding them. At the same time Ungor Riders failed to rally and fled through the ranks of Swordmasters who captured one of the creatures. That also meant remaining two were blocking the attack path for the warriors of Hoeth.

One Shaman and Slugtongue moved to join last pack of riders and hid behind the hills. Slugtongue finally raised some Zombies to help him out too!

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 3,4 --> 8:5 (one successful channel each)
Ryze: 1,1,5,6 + 2 = 15 --> no dispel attempt --> 10 Zombies summoned
Akar'aran: 1,1,2,3 + 2 = 9 --> failed to cast

Outcasts - Turn 6


Last chance to hunt some beastmen!

It was the last chance to hunt down some vile beastmen. Swordmasters charged ungors who held to prevent the attack at their Minotaur boss. They died but single survivor fled!

In the South another unit of Swordmasters chased riders away and re-directed into Gors but they fled to safety! Dragon Princes attacked herpies and killed them all. Nearby Shaman thought it was all lost and fled towards the dark forest as well.

Larry and Archers tried for the last time to inflict some more damage but while last Gor was pinned dead to the ground, Flying Doombull remained barely alive but alive nonetheless!

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 5,5 --> 10-7 (successful channel for Beastmen)
Iceshard Blizzard at Flying Doombull: 4,6 + 2 = 12 --> dispelled on 3,4,4,6 + 2 = 19
Burning Gaze at Flying Doombull: 3,3 + 2 = 8 --> no dispel attempt --> 5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save
Fireball at Flying Doombull: 3,4 + 2 = 9 --> no dispel attempt --> 2 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves
Spirit Leach at Flying Doombull: 2,6 + 2 = 10 --> dispel scroll
Searing Doom at Flying Doombull: 4,5 + 2 = 11 --> failed dispel attempt on 2,5 + 2 = 9 --> 2 hits, 1 wound, saved

Shooting Phase Details

Archers A2 at Flying Doombull: 4+ to hit --> 7 hits, 3 wounds, 3 saves

Beastmen - Turn 6


Sorry for that picture, don't know why it uploads to photobucket like that

Great Eagles took one for the team and stopped Doombulls from causing more damage. Wounded Flying Doombull charged White Lions but they decided that they better withdraw as they would have been attacked from the flank and their chances at killing the beast were slim anyway.

With that both forces withdrew and regrouped and it seemed that Elves managed to carry the day by the narrowest of margins!

Summary


Turn-by-turn summary animation

After-battle thoughts

First of all let me thank Elo for being a great opponent and all the spectators from the peanut gallery. There was quite a crowd there at some stage and it's just a pity we had to start the game 9:30-10pm as many people didn't stay long enough to see the end of the game. I hope they will enjoy reading this report then!

I was very happy to scrap 11:9 victory from that game as it was a big challenge for me to avoid the Minotaurs while trying to earn enough points elsewhere. There were moments of luck/bad luck on both sides. Before I move on to my own observations here are some points Elo emailed me to comment on the mistakes he says he made and that he believes resulted in his defeat:

1. I didn't split the Minotaurs between 2 units. Your regiments don't have the chance against the Bulls and by putting them into a single unit I limited my movement options and could not play aggressively with them.

2. Failed Frenzy test when Sisters of Avelorn where blocking the unit. If passed I would charge with BSB only, move Doombull with Sword of Swift Slaying against the Lions and the General against the Archers.

3. Charging Reavers with Riders, I should shoot at them instead.

4. I didn't bring the redirector to avoid being charged in the situation when Reavers attacked depleted unit of Gors with Slugtongue.

I agree with the above and here are my observations and comments on various things that happened in the game:

1. Deployment - I was happy with it as I limited the number of units that were affected by Slugtongue by half and didn't suffer many casualties either. The only thing I would change was the relative position of ER1 and DP1 as I had havy cavalry slowed down by the lake where I could not march.

2. Reavers - While I moved them forward in an attempt to outflank the enemy fast and in the end caused lot of trouble for enemy wizards, I wonder if I could have played them better? For example, ER1 could tempt Flying Doombull to charge them, challenge and flee to draw him away from the Eagle Claw. Or even charge him and do the same if he didn't take the bait.

When in combat I made a mistake at some stage when I split the attacks between one remaining gor standard bearer and Slugtongue. The single attack that wounded was regenerated while it would have killed the unit outright and won me the combat. I may have had broken the enemy then, instead I broke myself and lost the unit.

3. Overruns - I definitely made a mistake with overruning in turn 4. I should have restrained and reformed with both, Swordmasters and Dragon Princes. If I did I would have had more options, attack defeated units again if they rallied or attack/press against fresh targets. As a result I endangered Swordmasters who luckily escaped harpies and totally lost the chance to hunt down all 3 enemy wizards that were quite expensive in comparison.

4. Dragon princes - I left them after defeating the riders where I could press South and help in hunting down enemy wizards.

5. BSB - his main role was to make sure I have the re-rolls for swift re-forms when needed. Fortunately, I didn't but if I failed at least one test these Doombulls would have caught me. I am just wondering if I could position him better to be able to charge something in the meantime. I considered attacking Flying Doombull if possible but at that time he still had 2 wounds left and I am not sure if even with re-rolls I would by pass 3++ ward twice.

6. Lions - that was another thing I am not sure if I did properly. I exposed the flank to Flying Doombull. I decided I better flee and give up half the points (ETC rule) than risk being trampled. Lions and Doombull would strike at the same time. I had 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound with 3 attacks only. Doombull had 8A at this stage + d3 impact hits + stomp. With 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound I could have lost entire unit anyway. That would be the difference between small victory and a draw and while I didn't know the score at the moment I made that decision, I decided to play safe.

I hoped to inflict that last wound on Doombull as it would have been great but it was not to be. As you can see there were some points to collect on both sides if not for the mistakes we made so I guess 11:9 is a good reflection of the game.

Thanks for reading and looking forward to your comments and feedback!

Cheers!

[Loriel]

hah... this deployment is surely interesting.

some points, random querstion etc
- I have to admit that I have really hard time considering how would that list work, but I think it will have some merit against you. tons of dispensable ranged models that you cannot ignore and cannot elude. given that we have t3, he could easily destroy your units. then again you will hunt them down and are forced to use much pricier models to gain mere 38 point.
- arabyan carpet doom bull........ this is just something I wish someone would make model out of! really interesting choice and I would say that it would be really interesting to see ogres with carpet as well. I never considered such choice, but I could see it really viable.
- mark of slaanesh for ITP (wasn't it immune to psychology or was it armor piercing... damnation too long time since warhammer), interesting idea!
- I would like to know what chalice of dark rain does? I have no idea
- one really good thing about this battle is that you can force your opponent to advance as you would most likely win the battle if he played defensively.
-Do you feel better place for Dragon Princes 1?
-What about with the reaver movement? I think vanguarding closer in this particular set up might not be as wise, as it would give you little in return. I take those ungors have 4 movement thus 8 with march and did they have short bows... my memory says they does?.... effective range of 26. thus you allowed him to gain first turn shots. or did they have bows... damnation. that would make 32 inch effective range. all of your models would still be out of their effective range with 4 inch room to spare.
-----------------

Well I predict that this bold rogue list of beastmen will take a victory on this one by about 300 - 400 points. You manage to conserve some of the points in safety on the right side using the hills and middle building LOS block to your advantage. left board will have blood feast of fresh elves. I have a feeling that arabyan bull will do some really niche things during the game

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Loriel,

I hoped you are still checking the forum and I am glad you provided your usual deployment analysis. For this sole reason it is worthy preparing reports for this forum

I also hoped to have information on the deployment order but due to server connection malfunction I was kicked out of the room and didn't manage to copy the chat with the details. And it seems I can't recall the exact order of deployment. It was very interesting as my opponent decided to deploy all his regiments and not send anything to ambush. Hence, the challenge was to predict where the Slugtongue would go as I wanted to avoid the situation when BSB is targeted.

In the end he was deploying his characters after me so it was solely his decision where to put them and it can also be an interesting point for the analysis. Because Slugtongue could also be in Gors G2 and his minotaurs could be either split up between ungors or be deployed with U1.

This army is good at slowing down the enemy and giving up little points in doing so. Add to that summoned undead regiments (even if the are worth points under ETC rules) and he can really choke up the advance of the enemy. Beastmen are M5 and Minotaurs are M6 so they are not that slow either. These small skirmishing regiments can also move swiftly with free reforms and small footprint.

At the same time any Doombull can destroy any unit in my side. I may get lucky and take a wound or two here and there but they have the advantage. And they gain more attacks while their Bloodgreed means they overrun only 1d6 inches which is not that good at leading them into traps. Basically, I think he can kill my troops faster than I can kill his and mine are worth more points.

Mark of Slaanesh is even better than Immune to Psychology. It allows you to ignore panic, fear and terror tests but you can still flee the charges. While it might be risky for Ld6 ungors it is still viable tactics.

Chalice can be used once a game in the opponent's shooting phase. At the beginning you are declaring your are using the item and all BS shooting has an additional -1 to hit while models that don't use BS to shot need to roll 4+ to do so.

I didn't expect him to play defensively, he might slow down the advance of my troops in some places but in general he needs to get his Minotaurs into combat ASAP. Every additional round without the fight means I have more time to shoot, cast magic and hunt down his units and wizards.

I think I would do better with changing the relative positions of DP1 and ER1.

Indeed, that might have been a mistake to vanguard forward but I had +1 to roll off for the first turn and could start threatening his flanks early. It does not mean I would limit their bows shooting much though (Riders how short bows only).

As to the prediction, as usual, I cannot let you know at the moment but I will do my best to prepare the report soon!

Many thanks for your feedback again!

Cheers!

[Loriel]

you do have a good score of killing big things with not so many thousand arrows

[sparkytrypod]

Looking forward to this, i have to wonder at your opponent putting 3 heavy hitting characters in one unit, i see white lions in between the archers having a large roll with their natural stubborn, 1 good redirect maybe take that large unit off the board, white lions to hold it then maybe. Thats assuming the characters stay in the unit though! However even a solo charging character can be used to your advantage, if you put a unit right in his face, a solo charging character with bloodgreed has a large chance of blocking its parent unit next turn.

Good winds of magic to make use of magic missiles will be important, if you can clear a unit of gors/ungors per turn, you wil clear your lanes for movement.

if you get a flank and frontal charge you could break that big unit on combat res(iceshard for the win). That army is ld 8 i think? If not 7? An iceshard and one good combat could ge all it takes!

Cant wait!

[Ladril Caledor]

The Doombull with 3+ ward looks scary. Especially with Crown of Command on its unit. I would move most things away from it as it approaches, feed that unit some chaff and work around it. There are lots of other weak units in this army that can be mopped up by the Outcasts.

I think Swordmaster wins this one but only with a whole lot of clever evasive movement and some decent rolls and damage in the magic and shooting phase Avoiding Doombulls at first, mopping up Gors and setting up combo charges to smash the Doombulls late on. Even if Swordmaster does win I think it will be close and a lot of Outcasts are going to die in this battle.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

@ Loriel

And I intended to add to that record

@ sparkytrypod

That is why I liked this match up so much! It had so many options for both armies. Many counters too. If Elo went for individual deployment right from the start it is more problematic on one hand but as you say, it is also easier to lead a single Doombull away. They have to work as a team to catch my Elves for sure!

I was trying to come up with some ideal situation to tackle the unit with so many characters. It requires limiting their efficiency though so magic would be one way of doing so. But it would all need to work perfectly too as any single element not fitting to the whole picture would mean the collapse of a whole plan.

Yes, the army is Ld8 so even with crown of command it is not a guarantee of staying in combat, even less so with iceshard on!

@ Ladril Caledor

Indeed! One of these beasts can be contained but I had the whole herd of angry bulls! I am glad I don't have many red cloaks in the army

I have just finished preparing the diagrams and I hope I will be able to write it all up with the usual details on the various phases over the weekend.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Just letting you know that the report is finished!

Cheers!

[Ladril Caledor]

Happy to see my pre game predictions (3 posts up) were pretty accurate!

One thing I was wrong about was that I thought you needed good rolls on magic and shooting to prevail. It actually seemed like the rolls were bad, and magic and shooting didn't do much damage at all. This game was won by great work in the movement phase. Congrats on a hard earned and well deserved victory!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ladril Caledor!

Now you understand why I could not comment in more detail on your very good prediction, well done!

I was not disappointed with magic/shooting although it was not as spectacular as in my previous two games where I could hunt down big flying beasts It kept Flying Doombull in check, it allowed for that important failed frenzy test and as you could see Larry was actually very busy casting spells. It's just this time my opponent dispelled well and he trusted in his 3++ ward save. It was very close but could not get that last wound unfortunately.

I am very curious, however, if there is a way to tackle that unit full of Doombulls. For instance, if I were to attack from the front and rear, would Minotaurs be able to attack to the back through the gap? Or only Ungors could fight to the rear?

It is great to be able to avoid these very dangerous characters but I know that I also need to have an option to kill them eventually. I have a feeling I might be able to do so if they are wounded and I can attack them in certain situations in close combat with the proper help of magic. Need to run some simulations

Cheers!

[Loriel]

my view is that Eloriel should definately be more aggressive with the bulls and accept the fact that some of them will be multiple charged and put to sleep. Especially beastmen turn 5 should have seen charge from all bulls. Eventhough that might end up badly following turn, he was allready losing the game at that point and the bulls were pretty much the only way to turn the tide and so really worth it.

I have few general principles how I think game is won and these are universal:
- Always try to have odds in your favor.
- Everything is expandable

but nevertheless gz for the victory!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Loriel,

While I agree that being more aggressive was the way to go I wanted to add turn 5 charges were not quite possible, certainly not for all the Bulls. Flying Doombull didn't see any target. General Doombull either. Third Doombull could charge only great eagle and move forward due to bloodgreed thus not in full control of his movement. BSB could charge Dragon Princes but they would have fled to safety through impassable terrain.

The situation of turn 5 was a consequence of putting almost all eggs in a single basket and failing frenzy test in the meantime.

Cheers!

[Loriel]

You are correct. I have to admit that I missed that (didn't focus nearly as enough to the previous turns as I should have before posting opinions )

Well that shows great tactician to nullify those bulls effectiveness.

About the blood greed, wasn't it so that they are forced to overrun and pursuit if possible, with only D6 instead of 2d6. and they gained attack each time they wiped out / break or what was the condition?

So the way to nullify the negative effect would try to enter in close combat that is likely wipe out in second round, try to gain suitable multiple combat (risky, not because they were really endangered being killed in close combat, but by breaking due lack of combat resolution) it might be worthwhile. small units breaking from combat can be bounced with ungor riders and might be hacked to below 25% for only insane courage.

Correct me if I am wrong but beastmen hatred can work every round of combat, wasn't it the primal fury rule.

I pondered that what would have happened if arabyan bull would charged swordmasters instead. in T2. Swordmasters didn't have any support that could have charged bulls ranks. Most likely doom bull wouldn't be able to kill 6 masters so they would have being steadfast in first round of combat.... OH hell they had blade lord there. Well that would have being pretty much guaranteed victory of first round of combat...

...

I have to leave right now, but i will continue pondering the next time

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Loriel,

I did my best to avoid them and this time it worked!

Yes, Bloodgreed works the way you describe. It is less problematic than normal frenzy because you don't overrun that far and cannot be trapped easily. At the same time it makes it harder to reach fresh enemy (I think I haven't used that to my advantage well enough). And yes, they get more attacks each time they win round of combat so they become real beasts! (pun intended ).

Again, yes, primal fury is a Ld test. If passed, Beastmen re-roll their to hit rolls. Fortunately, Minotaurs don't get that

I think Elo wanted to avoid being stuck in combat. If he charged Swordmasters he would be challenged. With BSB nearby I had good chance to stay due to being steadfast. Then he would definitely win the combat next round but with WS6, same initiative and S5 Swordmasters had good chance to wound him in the process. In addition I had magic to cast in my round meaning I had even better chance to shift the odds of that combat.

What is more Eagle Claws are not affected and cannot be charged as he might follow fleeing swordmasters and not be in the good position to charge anything again.

Looking forward to reading your further comments!

[sparkytrypod]

Disapointed with the beastmen player, if he isnt in your face turn 2 he is losing. Way too conservative. His army with skirmishers and flyers is extremely manouverable. I dont understand all the units left/wasted in the beastmen backfield and right flank?! I think lore of undeath doesnt add much to the list either!

Those ungors and gors job is to suck units in by forcing your opponent to charge them, allowing the beasmen player to charge in the heavy hitters then. Alongside deflecting unwanted combats.

i play beastmen a couple of times a month, and they can be dam tough! I think that more unconventional style high elf lists do better against beastmen, as beasts are lookong for that juicy target/big fight to grind you out.

Same as i mentioned in your last report, you made the right moves and got the result, you have a plan and you execute it!

Cant ask for more than that!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi sparky,

Well, when I talked with my opponent after the game he said he was not happy with his performance. I guess his comments reflect that and he knows he should have been more aggressive. I will see if I can get some feedback from him as to his plan and why he chose Lore of Undeath as well as why he kept many of his units passive.

I didn't know you play with beastie boyz! In that case, given the same army, how would you deploy and what would be your plan against my squishy Elves?

Indeed, having some time to check the opponents list and developing some plans helped. I am glad it worked although I wish I could earn more points and caught these expensive models in the back yard.

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

I got some more feedback from my opponent so here are his answers:

1. He chose Undeath because Lore of the Wild is not good and he liked summoning things such as Vargheists or Morghasts that can hit hard and fly.

2. He kept some of the small units with Mage bunkers because he needed them to re-direct the regiments I sent to hunt them down.

3. Similar with those that assisted Minotaurs, he kept them close and used them to re-direct units that would potentially be able to attack his characters.

Cheers!

[sparkytrypod]

Sorry i meant i play against beasts a few times a month, the guy i play against is a great player! (Etc standard)

True, but slug tongue can take death too, a better fit maybe? All it takes is one good roll on spirit leach amd goodbye larry! Could have run the lvl1's alone as individual models behind the hill perhaps, super range on miasma.

At work now so il throw up a plan myself later!

Didnt mean to sound harsh in the above post either! #banter

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Ah, I guess I misunderstood then. But it is good to have an opponent who sticks to his guns and if he can make Beastmen work under ETC it means he knows his stuff! What does he run these days?

My opponent said he didn't take Death as he run out of pool points so chose Undeadth instead. I presume you can have Death magic in but then he would have to get rid of other choices of course.

Looking forward to reading more of your comments!

[Hinge]

Entertaining and close game.

I watched parts of it as it was going on, mostly the second half. I felt like the Beastmen player was getting to greedy on turn 4. He sent each mino out to hunt down its own elven regiment. You expertly sidestepped them and while a missed swift reform roll might have undone some of your dancing, you also had 2 eagles in your pocket and enemy models that would be forced to over run short distances.

I feel he would have been served using several minos to surround a single unit each turn to ensure it could not escape. He could then send one mino in to take on the trapped regiment, hopefully then winning combat on your turn. The other minos could go hunt a second regiment.

I also feel like the positioning of slugtongue and the remaining gor was poor on turn 4. Your “escape route” for DP1 was to flee through impassable terrain, sluggie should have been prepared to push you off the table if you did so.

You comment on your over runs turn 4. I agree with that you should not have over run with DP2 as holding back maintains options and that small unit very well cold have routed off the board (which you would know before your next turn). I still think I would have pursued with the Swordmasters. The chance of scooping up 2 characters is just too tempting. If you had decided to reform, the Harpies and an ungor raider unit were available to redirect long enough for the character bunker to rally and the characters having a chance to escape.

Hinge

PS

Sorry for the lack of in depth feedback. To much AoS rumors swirling around.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Hinge,

Many thanks for your comments! In particular now when AoS rumors (and not only) fly around and they create so much confusion.

I am glad you enjoyed the game and found it entertaining. I just hope it was not too slow, in particular when we played it late at night for us and some of the spectators.

I agree that Elo could have surround one unit to trap it. I even thing he should have charged the archers instead of moving out with units because it would gave him points immediately and prevented them from shooting the last gor and netting me some points in return. That would probably be enough to turn it into his victory instead. With only d6" overrun/pursue he is not going too far away. Then he had 2 turns to move the Minotaurs in the way you suggest, to trap one of my units.

That means I need to plan ahead better if facing such situation.

I am really unhappy I lost the sight of a bigger picture with the overruns as I was so close to catching the wizards and only because Elo made a mistake of leaving Bray Shaman too close and failed his panic check I got enough points to claim 11-9 victory.

I must say that normally this game would make me more excited about the next round but AoS information clouds it and I feel really down.

Thanks for feedback, Hinge! I am glad you will have some proper go at 8th edition during upcoming ETC in August.

Cheers!

[Hinge]

Thanks for feedback, Hinge! I am glad you will have some proper go at 8th edition during upcoming ETC in August.

Yep, tail end of 8th ed. should be a blast with Quake City around the corner and ETC right after!

[Orchaldor]

Hi SM,

Interesting battle! Outmanoeuvring and picking off the smaller pieces seems to be a good way to handle Beasts - I remember a game against one of my mate's Beastmen where he sent his army at me piecemeal while I was able to sit back and shoot/magic him into elf-sized pieces (to be fair, I got lucky Turn 1 with a Miasma/Pit combo that trashed 75% of his magic phase, which totally disrupted his original plans).

What I wanted to ask is how did you feel about the amount of shooting/magic you sent the way of the flying Doombull - although he is a great target, would you have been better directing some firepower towards softer targets, perhaps to open up easier paths for your combat units to hunt down the wizards, or to thin down the character bus to expose them to magic missiles/single bolts? Or was he just leading a charmed life? It seemed you'd had enough attacks to kill him several times over!

Still, very nicely played, and thank you - reading your report put a smile back on my face that hasn't been there in recent Warhammer times!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Orchaldor,

Many thanks for your feedback and kind words! I am very happy people read the reports when new things are coming and that everything is going to be very different from now on!

The game was different than the ones I played against Beastmen before in the sense that the ratio of small, expendable units to big and tough to get killers was much higher. There were no big blocks I was so used to face before. But getting rod of these small support bands was always an important thing so that I could maneuver with more freedom. In fact, you could see that it paid off when my opponent had to use his Minotaurs only to try and catch my regiments.

I considered whom I want to shot at first (or actually what is my main target in general) and I decided it is far more beneficial to send all the ranged attacks I could at flying Doombull. In this game it may look like a waste because he has that silly 3++ ward save and can really take a lot of punishment. However, I also know that players don't care much about support while wounding their best toy makes them worried. So when I managed to wound that Doombull my opponent immediately became much more careful and his big killer destroyed only 2 bolt throwers that game. As you can see it looks like a bad investment and he definitely underperformed.

On the other hand, I was happy to kill his support even if my units were diverted because I kept moving or reforming and I had huge advantage in combat in one-on-one situations (maybe with the exception of some reaver fights). Thanks to that I also had clarity of what I want to do. I focused my ranged attacks on Doombull and combat specialists on fighting. As a result it was easier to control the army and the flow of battle.

I am glad you liked the report, hopefully I will continue having games and will be posting them as usual.

Cheers!

[Elithmar]

I've got to say a huge thank you for the report. I played Elo in the second round and it was invaluable seeing how he plays beforehand and it was particularly useful to see how a high elf army can win against his list. It may sound stupid but I hadn't even thought about the obvious synergy between miasma and pit of shades which someone mentioned in the comments.

I did get fairy lucky in my game and perhaps my spell selection was more suited to the task, but I think it is important to find a way to take down at least some of the characters. There are so many points in those doombulls that, especially in a tournament, it's pretty much essential to kill them. Given that all but the flying one have ASL, even swords and lions have a chance of killing them if you can get a few units into them. Perhaps your dragon princes and BSB could have played a larger role too in hunting the doombulls, particularly when they split up.

Given how few points the small units are worth, I don't think it's really worthwhile chasing them, even the wizards. Maybe you could have focused your shooting on them to prevent them blocking your units. Although, you did give a pretty convincing psychological reason to focus on the flying doombull.

Anyway, thanks again for a great report and congratulations on the victory!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Elithamr,

Thanks for your comments!

I am happy to know that my previous encounter with Beastie Boyz helped you in your own game. I had a glimpse of it on UB and it looked to me that you managed to get rod of the 2 minotaurs early! Was it correct?

I agree with the fact that in order to win big in the tournament you have to kill these characters or at leas some of them. However, they are also quite well protected and as long as they were in a single unit that task was very difficult. I had some ideas how to try to do it but I could not make it happen before they separated and then I didn't risk one-on-one combats either.

I still think it is worthwhile engaging small units and wizards. First of all, that allows me to use movement phase very well as I don't only get rid of the re-directors but also can combat reform or overrun into better positions. It is like striking two birds with one stone. If I didn't put some pressure on Elo's wizards all the units he left there would follow Minotaurs and that would also make it difficult to avoid big guys.

The trick was to do that fast enough to be in position to threaten the Minotaurs in the mid-late game. I think I made mistakes that resulted in either too late of an impact or simply backfired. Like where I shouldn't have allocated attacks at Slugtongue but, as before, all should have gone at Gor unit to get rid of it and to possibly break the wizard.

I still need to learn how to conduct something I would call active defense where you actually can attack enemy to gain some space/time later. Maybe attacking with Swordmaster/Lions/Dragon Princes could have been done here to kill at least one of the Minotaurs as you suggested.

Cheers!

[Elithmar]

I do agree that it's important to get rid of the redirectors quickly. In my game, Elo was able to completely control my movement phase and get the minotaurs into the combats he wanted.

Of course though, I couldn't give anything away before I post the report.