MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
Southern Sentinel
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Location: On the path of an outcast

MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

I have a pleasure to announce that Mr. Galharen was kind enough to find time for a game we are going to play on Universal Battle platform. The battle between Outcasts and The Winged Hussar Host will take place tomorrow, 11.06.2015 at 7 pm Central Europe time (GMT+2). That is 6 pm in London, 1 pm in New York and 3 am (12.06) in Sydney.

I would like to to invite you to that game, hopefully it will be an interesting and entertaining one for everybody! Mr. Galharen is well known on this forum for his unparalleled skills with painting brushes but he also is a skillful general as he has demonstrated recently by placing 3rd at one of the biggest events in Poland. If you somehow missed the pictures of his wonderful army, here is a link to his army blog:

The Winged Hussar Host - Army Blog

As he wanted to have a game under ETC rules we will be using these during our game. He will most likely use his trustworthy army list featuring Star Dragon and Silver Helm bus among others.

The Winged Hussar Host - Army List

Prince, Star Dragon, General; Heavy Armour; Lion Cloak; Shield, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard, Sword of Might - 635
Prince, barded steed, Heavy Armour, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone - 263
Archmage, steed, level 4, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon, Obsidian Lodestone - 315 - Lore of High Magic
BSB, barded steed, Lance; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard; Ithilmar Barding, Charmed Shield, Luckstone - 136

17 Silver Helms, Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Champion, Ithilmar Barding - 421
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap); Light Armour - 85
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bow (swap); Light Armour; Standard - 95

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Frostheart Phoenix - 240

Total Army Cost: 2400

Super fast and hard hitting army, considered one of the strongest HE forces under ETC rules. I will try to provide some run down of the army choices from the point of view of my army but I am sure many forum members are familiar with this or very similar army lists.

I intend to put up a proper fight with the following force:

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster, Earthing Rod, Armor of Fortune, Obsidian Amulet - 320
Bob the Battle Standard Bearer, Griffon (Swiftsense, Swooping Strike), Dragon Armor, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield - 356

16 Archers, Full Command - 190
15 Archers, Full Command - 180
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, Musician, Bows, Spears - 115
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Champion, Musician, Bows, Spears - 115

5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Lions, Banner, Musician - 150

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Great Eagle - 50
Great Eagle - 50
9 Sisters - 126

Army Total: 2397

Which is my Work in Progress army list I would like to compete with for upcoming Hobby Masters.

Here is what I prepared for myself as The Winged Hussar Host overview before the game to post it after we play it.

Prince on Star Dragon - The most dangerous single model on the board. It will smash any unit I have without breaking a sweat. I can only hope to delay it with champions in a challenge and being steadfast. I expect the dragon to charge turn 2 as with its range of movement and high magic it can get almost everywhere. If I can make it attack turn 3 then it will be great already. Next I need to make sure that the dragon fights alone so it is very important I delay and divert Silver Helms. It will be more difficult with Frostheart though.

Another important thing when fighting such monstrosities is to be careful with overrun options and make sure that if that happens it does not allow the dragon to get into fresh enemy. In any case I need to assume that I will lose 3-4 units to the dragon itself if it gets to combat unharmed.

However, I believe I have some tools to wound it and either make it shy to attack thus losing fewer units or making it more risky as all the attacks I might have left can still have a chance to wound it.

Magic can be an answer here. Main weapon, boosted Searing Doom has a potential of wounding the dragon seriously. I also made a mental note to remember I can boost Burning Gaze for S6 version. While both spells are flaming and the prince would laugh at them it was no less important to kill the dragon. It might not give me points but at least it will seriously limit the options for the prince and decrease the damage potential for my opponent to deal. Bolt throwers are natural anti-aircraft weapon and I intended to use them here given the opportunity. Unlike with magic, single bolts have better chance of killing the prince as they would wound on 2+ and he would get only 4++ ward save while Dragon is wounded on 5+ and has 7 wounds. However, a combination of both is a threat and I wanted to use it to my advantage.

Last but not least, if the dragon is seriously wounded I could risk a charge of BSB on Griffon. With ASF and S6 from both I had a chance to finish the wyrm before it would strike. If I could do that with the assistance of Swordmasters, Lions or Dragon Princes then even batter. It may look like a folly but as I said, it is a solution to kill the seriously wounded dragon before it could strike. While S5 still wound on 6+ only it also reduces the armor save to 5+ which is important.

Cavalry Prince - reminds me about Mr. Seredain with his Gian Blade and 1+ rerollable armor save! Real killer too and he might not have a match in close combat among my army. Even Bob the BSB and his pet griffon would find it hard to by pass 4+ re-rollable save. But he would stay in the SH bus most likely as it makes attacking it very risky (even from the rear). I expected he might be sent on hunting missions alone when the circumstances were right but unless my bolt throwers are gone and Larry eliminated or contained, he should be much safer with the knights, also because he would benefit from MR(3) against sniping spells.

Archmage - the only wizard of the army but very important figure for the force. First of all, at least in my opinion, he is here to protect. Dispel scroll and talisman granting MR(3) are the best tools after Banner of the World Dragon which Glaharen could not take under ETC draft with this particular list. Ironcurse Icon is a nice addition against War Machines especially when you consider the fact how it can be quickly improved with Shield of Saphery attribute. Single spell cast gives them 5++ already and that is not too bad at all. It gets even better with combination of MR(3) so as you can see even deadly Searing Doom can be efficiently neglected when Archmage is with Silver Helms. And he will stay with them all the time, I am sure, so in order to get him I need to get the unit. Which would be very hard.

I am very fond of High Magic and I admire how wonderfully it adds to the potential of Galharen's army. I think there are two crucial spells for him, Walk Between Worlds and Aphoteosis. First one makes his army even faster and can put his units or monsters in a great position to attack turn 2. Second one will be amazing in healing these monsters. Wounding Star Dragon is difficult but when it is healed in the process it can be almost impossible. The rest of the spells have great utility too and I just wonder how Galharen is going to use it. I can expect SH bus would get at least 6++/5++ wards every turn depending on the strength of winds of magic and my priority will be one of these spells, even at the cost of losing units to Soul Quench for example.

BSB - seems a little under equipped but I assume it is due to lack of points. His role is to wave the flag and stay alive and with fighting prince in the front rank he should be safe. Of course 3S6 attacks on a charge help too! Oh, and with him in the first rank Archmage can stay safe in the second one which is very important as well.

Silver Helms - main unit of the army. Bunker for 3 out of 4 characters, 20 models total, very hard to get points from and without bonuses for banners it is worth 1100+ points! It has great hitting potential, even SH count with their S5 attack and re-rolls, ranks to break steadfast. With the aid of Star Dragon and/or Phoenix they can smash tough opponents too. There are not such units in my army so whatever SH attack dies.

Out of many threats Glaharen's army has Silver Helms is the one I can delay in traditional way. While his fliers don't care, Silver Helms can be diverted and slowed down so it will be very important for me to keep the eagles and reavers nearby and ready. That is my chance too because dividing the efforts of my opponent is always a very important part of the plan.

In terms of defeating that unit it would be a very hard thing to do. There 20 models to deal with, 20+ wounds and those from characters are harder to get. The unit is well protected from magic and regular shooting too, with the ability to increase its protection due to ward saves. I would need to attack it from all sides with overwhelming force to be able to grind it down and even then it would not be possible with any of the flying monsters around. So unless I have them contained somehow the only charges I was preparing to make where those to actually slow them down where I could win the turn of combat and hold them in place for one turn.

Ellyrian Reavers - I am very fond of the fast cavalry and I think Glaharen made a very good choice with including two units as a support. They would make my plan much more difficult as they can interfere with my own diverters and with bows they can hunt down the eagles too. They are one of the priorities to shoot at so that I could move my own units more efficiently.

Bolt Throwers - Very dangerous to any unit I have. I will need to use the terrain to get protection. The problem with them is that I have tools to hunt them down but the return of points delegated to the task will be poor. At the same time I will need the same units to deal with the fast elements of the army. So it was a very hard decision for me to make what is the real priority. I decided I will have to make it when I see the terrain and how I can limit their efficiency with the deployment.

Frostheart - one of the big 3, along Star Dragon and Silver Helm bus it is a very versatile support monster capable of destroying my small units alone. It has the advantage over Star Dragon as it cannot be challenged. Against some of the big regiments out there it is very helpful with its Frost Aura but against my small units it will probably be less relevant. Hence, I expect it to go for individual missions.

I was looking for a way to destroy it and I reminded myself that long time ago I had a similar dilemma with a Warsphinx. Frosty is of course much more dangerous because it flies and it is better protected but I decided the way to deal with it is the same. Throw as many sticks at it as possible and the sheer number of them should grant me a few wounds. So if given the chance I intended to use any ranged attack at my disposal to focus on Frosty as out of big 3 it is still the most "easy" to kill.

To sum it up my plan was to use magic and shooting to deal the damage on Frosty, Reavers and Star Dragon to be able to have some chance in inevitable close combat where I expected to lose units but not without a fight and if these monsters where at least seriously wounded I could kill them in return. If I managed to slow down the bus and limit the damage from Bolt Throwers I think I had a chance to earn enough points to balance out any losses.

Terrain

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Four Kniggits' Game

Here are the rules for terrain under ETC format:

Hills - As per BRB description of an ordinary hill (p. 118 first 5 paragraphs, i.e. without the“Examples of hills” subsection) with following additional explanations :
- Line of Sight: Hills block Line of Sight.

Forests - As per BRB description of an ordinary forest (p. 119 first6 paragraphs, i.e. without “Mysterious Forests” subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Line of Sight: Forests are Interfering terrain providing Soft Cover for units, as described in BRB. For Line of Sight purposes Forests count as being of infinite height. This implies that units shooting trough forest will always suffer Soft Cover penalty, even if shooting from a hill or building.

Lake - As per BRB description of a Normal River (p. 120 first 5 paragraphs, i.e. without “Mysterious Rivers” subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Line of Sight: Lakes are non-interfering terrain features.
- Lakes are Water Features.

Obstacle: Wall - As per BRB description of an ordinary Wall (p. 123 with common rules for Obstacles,p.122) with following additional explanations:
- Walls definition of a unit “behind” is applied only to units actually defending the obstacle (i.e.aligned with it and touching it).
- Line of Sight: Obstacles are non-interfering terrain features.

Ruins - As per BRB description of an ordinary marshland (p.121 first 3 paragraphs, i.e. without “Examples of Marshland”
subsection) with following additional explanations:
- Ruins are NOT Water Features.
- Line of Sight: Ruins are non-interfering terrain features, providing Hard Cover for all units withmajority of their models in the feature.

Impassable
As the title says - infinite height, impassable terrain.

There is also a way to select the scenario under these rules. One player rolls a die and depending on the results player A chooses the scenario, player B does or it is simple Battle Line. Galharen was appointed to choose the scenario and he picked up Meeting Engagement. However, I won the roll off and had to pick the corner. After some deliberation I decided that North-West is the best option as it offers cover from Bolt Throwers even if it may limit the visibility of my own troops for the purpose of shooting and casting magic.

ETC has a modification to the rules of that scenario and there is no need to roll for each unit to see if it is going to be in reserves. I simply had to place my entire army first. Then I had the first turn unless Galharen rolled a 6 to steal the initiative.

Here is the sequence of my deployment and how Galhaner responded:

Deployment

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Outcasts

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The Winged Hussar Host

Although the result is no longer a surprise I still hope the deployment will prove interesting. I find that scenario quite a challenge, in particular when I had to deploy first. Usually I have the advantage of having more deployment drops so that I can use it and position my units where I want them the most.

Here, I had to guess where my opponent is going to deploy his army and plan accordingly. Having better odds of starting first can also be a trap as stealing the initiative does happen so I also wanted to take that into account. Galharen's army is very fast and with much more narrow deployment gap (only 12"!) I really had to be careful not to give him the chance for turn 1 charges.

At the same time I wanted to have that first turn count. That is why I deployed some of the shooters and cavalry behind the hills. Shooters would jump on it to target the units I wanted to shoot at while heavy cavalry would be able to cover some angles while remaining relatively safe from the bolt throwers.

Eagles and reavers were also nearby in case I would need to slow down some units quickly or if there was a need to move forward fast.

Despite the efforts I knew I was at a disadvantage as the distance between the armies is much smaller and Galharen would have all the knowledge of my deployment to counter it in any way he liked.

Galharen got the following spells for his Archmage: Soul Quench, Apotheosis, Walk Between Worlds, Tempest

He didn't steal the initiative, however, so I had the first turn:

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Fighting Ice with Fire

Outcasts remained in the defensive formation and withdrew some regiments for better positions for a potential counter attacks. Sisters and Archers moved a little forward to get into range of their chosen targets.

Larry the Loremaster drew from the winds of magic deeply and cast a fireball at Frostheart and wounded the Phoenix. Following Burning Gaze was unstoppable and resulted in another deep gash in the side of a frosty bird.

Sisters and Archers continued the barrage and Frostheart Phoenix finally shattered like a broken glass. Encouraged by the success of their companions, Eagle Claw crews aimed carefully. One of them shot at the Star Dragon itself and found a weak spot in between the scales, the roar of pain of a wounded beast was heard across entire battle field.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 5,6 --> 11:7 (successful channel attempt for Galharen)
2d6 Fireball at Frostheart: cast on a roll 2,2,2,6 + 2 = 14 --> no dispel attempt --> 10 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save --> 2 wounds
Boosted Burning Gaze at Frostheart: cast on a roll 1,4,5,6,6 --> 4 hits, 1 wound, no save
Miscast Result: 3,6 --> wounded Loremaster, warded on 5++ --> 4 power dice lost

Shooting Phase Details

Sisters at Frostheart: 4+ to hit (move, long range) --> 5 hits, no wounds
Archers at Frostheart: 5+ to hit (4+ champions, move, long range) --> 11 hits total, 2 wounds, no saves --> dead Phoenix
Eagle Claw (EC1) at Star Dragon: 4+ to hit (long range, single bolt) --> hits, randomized to dragon, wounds, multiplies to 3 wounds
Eagle Claw (EC2) at Silver Helms: 4+ to hit (long range, multiple) --> 3 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves

The Winged Hussar Host - Turn 1

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Fighting fire with fire!

Enraged Caledorian Prince flew his loyal dragon to the top of the hill where enemy archers were and ordered his beast to incinerate them. Half of the unit died horrible deaths in flames and their companions fled in panic. Enormous unit of knights galloped nearby allowing the Archmage to focus on healing the Star Dragon whose strength was restored.

Due to lack of other targets the bolt throwers aimed at the Sisters on the other hill and no less than three of them were punished for daring to shoot at the Frostheart Phoenix.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 1,2 --> 3:2 (no channels)
Boosted Apotheosis on Star Dragon: cast on a roll of 2,2,5 + 5 = 14 --> failed attempt to dispel --> 2 wounds healed

Shooting Phase Details:

Star Dragon at Archers: 15 hits, 7 wounds (3+ to wound), failed panic test on 5,6
2 bolt throwers at Sisters: 4+ to hit (long range) --> 5 hits, 3 wounds, panic test passed

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Dragon Hunt continues!

With the enemy approaching the Outcasts focused on the biggest threat, the Star Dragon and employed their tested delaying tactics in order to slow down enemy knights. Ellyrian Reavers took one for the team while Lions shifted their position to avoid the gaze of a dragon rider and getting ready to intercept impetuous silver helms.

Larry the Loremaster had power only for a single spell and he attempted to send a Searing Doom at the dragon but this time enemy Archmage didn't underestimate his adversary and dispelled that threat.

Now the shooters aimed at the great wyrm. First, Loremaster's companions shot and they too hit well wounding the dragon twice! Then one of the bolt thrower crews repeated the feat and wounded the dragon as hard as the last time! It was barely alive now and second eagle crew as well as nearby reavers tried to get that last wound from it. Unfortunately their multiple shots were not lucky enough to penetrate the thick hide while a few bolts and arrows were easily deflected by the prince atop the dragon.

Magic Phase Details

Winds of Magic: 1,6 --> 7:6 (no channels)
Boosted Searing Doom at Star Dragon: cast on a roll 1,2,3,3,4,6 + 2 = 21 --> dispelled with a scroll

Shooting Phase Details:

Archers (A1) at Star Dragon: 5+ to hit (move, long range) --> 8 hits, 6 at dragon, 3 wounds, 1 save; 2 at prince, 1 wound, saved
Eagle Claw (EC1) at Star Dragon: 4+ to hit (long range, single shot) --> hits, randomized to dragon, wounds, multiplies to 3 wounds
Eagle Claw (EC2) at Star Dragon: 3+ to hit (short range, multiple shot) --> 3 hits, 2 at dragon, 1 at prince, no wounds

The Winged Hussar Host - Turn 2

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Last charge of the Star Dragon

Enraged dragon rider throws caution to the wind and charges the Eagle Claw crew that dared to shoot at him and his pet mount! Silver Helms follow the example and attack the annoying fast cavalry. Brave Reavers die to an elf and nearby Lions withdraw rather than stay to receive such a murderous charge.

In the confusion and chaos due to combat the Archmage tries to help his prince and his dragon. He draws from winds of magic and once again tries to heal the great wyrm. However, Larry the Loremaster this time bested his opponent and the spell was deflected.

The dragon was coming. You could see it flying low and picking up the speed, blood rage in its eyes. On top hated Caledorian prince, the embodiment of everything Outcasts stood against. The foolish pride, arrogance, disregard for non-Caledorians, leading Ulthuan to the fall and collapse under the waves, betraying those loyal and siding with archenemy Malekith.

The dragon was a deadly weapon but this time it was seriously wounded, it looked like it was about to crash and bury everything under its belly. Two veteran Eagle Claw crew members did their duty already but they were adamant they should at least try to make last additional effort for their companions and for all that was lost forever. The End of Time and the End of the World is upon them.

They picked huge bolts and planted them like pikes, steadied their gaze and aimed at the incoming dragon. There were no battle cries, no shouts, no war songs. Just silence and grim determination to take the wounded dragon with them.

Everybody held their breaths as the roar of rage turned into cry of pain and the sound of immense body crashing to the ground. When the dust settled Outcast could see motionless, dead dragon, single bolt protruding from his eye. There was no sign of the Eagle Claw crew and only the lone figure of the prince with his bloodied sword in his hand was seen standing tall next to his dead mount.

He slowly turned and started running towards Swordmasters ...


Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 2,4 --> 6:4 (no channels)
Apotheosis on Star Dragon: cast on a roll of 1,1,4,5,6 + 5 = 22 --> dispelled on a roll 1,5,6,6
Walk Between Worlds at Bolt Thrower (EC1): cast on a roll 3 + 5 = 8

Shooting Phase Details:

Bolt Thrower (EC2) at Dragon Princes (DP1): 4+ to hit (long rage, multiple) --> 2 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves
Reavers (ER1) at Dragon Princes (DP2): 4+ to hit (move, short range) --> 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 save

Combat Phase Details:

Star Dragon vs Eagle Claw Crew: crew at the dragon, fear test passed, 4+ with a re-roll, 1 hit, 1 wound, no save --> dead dragon; prince kills the crew, overruns 11" into the flank of Swordmasters.
Silver Helms vs Reavers: 3A at BSB, charmed shield deflected the hit, 2A against SH, 1 hit, no wounds --> all reavers die --> White Lions fail panic test on 5,6 and flee off the table

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Glimpse of hope for the Outcasts!

With the dragon dead it seemed that the Outcasts have a chance to prevail! Furious prince stormed into the ranks of Swordmasters who were aided by the magic of the Loremaster. He battled enemy general in the duel of the minds but the prince ignored the pain and cut down three Swordmasters. Their companions held their ground knowing the help is coming.

In the meantime Dragon Princes charged enemy fast cavalry but could not break them and the combat continued.

Edit: I made a mistake in here as Walk Between Worlds was cast on Bolt thrower in the previous turn. I am sorry for the confusion.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 1,6 --> 7:6
Miasma on Prince (to lower WS): cast on a roll of 1,3 + 2 = 6 --> dispelled on a roll of 6 + 4 = 10
Blizzard on Prince: cast on a roll of 3,5 + 2 = 10 --> dispelled on a roll of 1,6 + 4 = 11
Spirit Leech on Prince: cast on a roll of 2,4,6 + 2 = 14 --> failed attempt to dispel 1,1,6 + 4 = 12 --> Loremaster ld9 + 4 vs Prince Ld10 + 2 --> 1 wound, no ward save

Shooting Phase Details:

Eagle Claw at Bolt Thrower (EC1): 4+ (long range, multiple shot) --> 3 hits, no wounds
Archers at Silver Helms: 5+ (move, long range) --> 9 hits total, 4 wounds, 1 save

Combat Phase Details:

Dragon Princes vs Reavers: 3 warriors from each side in contact --> no wounds from reavers, 2 wounds from princes, reavers pass break on 2,3
Prince vs Swordmasters: 4A on 3+ --> 4 hits, 3 wounds --> 4A swordmasters, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 1 wound, saved --> steadfast, passed break test on 3,5

The Winged Hussar Host - Turn 3

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Power of High Magic!

With army general alone among enemy ranks his second in command decided to join the fight. He spurred his steed but it seems he miscalculated the distance and didn't reach the archers. Silver Helms maneuvered around the eagle to set into new position and keep the pressure up. The Archmage used his powers to kill many Swordmasters with Soul Quench while Bolt Throwers finished them off and claimed two more casualties among the enemy Dragon Princes.

Magic Phase Details:

Winds of Magic: 1,6 --> 7:6 (no channels)
Boosted Soul Quench on Swordmasters: cast on a roll of 2,3,4,5,5 + 5 = 24 --> no dispel attempt --> 18 hits, 8 wounds, no saves
Walk Between Worlds on Silver Helms: cast on a roll of 1,6 + 5 = 12 --> dispelled on a roll of 1,1,1,3,4,6 + 2 = 18

Shooting Phase Details:

Bolt Thrower at Swordmasters: 4+ (long range) --> 3 hits, 3 wounds, no shots deflected, dead unit, panic tests passed
Bolt Thrower at Dragon Princes: 4+ (long range) --> 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves, panic test passed

Combat Phase Details:

Prince vs Swordmasters: Bladelord challenges, dies, Swordmasters pass break test on steadfast
Dragon Princes vs Reavers: Reavers hit once, didn't wound, died

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Larry and Bob in action!

Seeing the opening Bob the Battle Standard Bearer flew to the rescue of nearby Swordmasters, challenges enemy general and kills him in a single combat (although being wounded in the process). Larry continues exchanging magical punches and manages to cast yet another spell irresistibly that kills lone cavalry prince outright!

With both the princes dead, the Archmage decided to withdraw in good order leaving the field to the victorious Outcasts!

Edit: Galharen threw the towel when I got Searing Doom on his cavalry prince through and rolled 6 hits that were turned into 4 wounds. We just rolled for the combat as I wanted to see how BSB and his Griffon would do. Despite inflicting 6 wounds Galharen saved 5 of them on 4++ and only thunderstomps got the last wound from the stubborn prince.

Summary

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Turn-by-turn summary animation

After-battle thoughts

I will not deny that I was very happy to win the game against such a tough list. When Glaharen gave up I was leading with 800+ points which according to the ETC scoring meant 15-5 victory. I had good rolls that helped me a lot and bolt thrower crew sneaking that last wound on Star Dragon was the most epic situation I have ever had in my games!

I think my opponent gave up too early. While I understand he was upset by losing Star Dragon and both Princes he still had a potent archmage and his soul quench and tempest had a potential to make up for the losses. His bolt throwers were not in danger and I was running out of combat troops to engage his Silver Helm bus. My magic and shooting did great damage but he still had 3 more turns to at least make the difference smaller. 800+ points is a good advantage but it is not an auto win.

As a tribute to a great player and painter as well as an example to follow, Rowan (whose excellent report you should read here: Tomb Kings at Moonstruck) I would like to analyze the game in similar fashion by starting with:

Why I think I got an advantage:

1. Deployment - I mentioned at the beginning I was at a disadvantage because I had to deploy first. Glaharen saw my entire army that tried to squeeze in between two hills and the ruins to avoid his shooting. That in turn limited my own abilities to shoot and cast magic significantly as well as options for counter-charges. He could measure and check my lines of sight and distances. He saw my archers ready to step on the hills to shoot and could plan accordingly.

However, he left his two big monsters in the open. If he only positioned his Frostheart a little to the West I would not be able to target it with my spells at all. While I was lucky with wounding it with fireball and getting IF on burning gaze (although getting only single wound) he could have completely eliminate that possibility with slight correction of the position. The same goes with his Dragon, why risk taking shots and then spending power dice to heal it when you could have avoid it and use them on some magic missiles?

2. Impatience - I think he got impatient and was reckless with his Star Dragon. The game last 6 turns and you gained less than he risked with the Dragon landing on the top of the hill where every single unit could see it. Again, I was lucky to sneak through more wounds, especially with the archers but he could easily land behind the hill, keep his options for the charge open but avoid being targeted by spells (and saving his scroll for later) and not count on healing that didn't work in the end.

He had the odds in his favor when he charged the eagle claw. And it was very lucky to get that last wound from the dragon. But was absolutely necessary? He could have waited, see if he can heal the dragon and join the combat after he did so. It was just turn 2, there were 4 more to come!

3. Lack of support - I like the fact his army has fast cavalry to support the army and bolt throwers to create range threat. I understand he deployed his bolt throwers further away to avoid being shot at by archers but I wonder if they could have been deployed better. I do believe, however, that he didn't use his fast cavalry at all. I barely managed to divert Silver Helms with my own reavers but a move of his cavalry would have immediately prevented that. I lost Lions anyway but it would have been much better to charge them already as they were in a wrong position. What is more, fast cavalry staying close to the knights could always jump out to intercept my support, try to hunt down the eagles, redirect and simply provide -2 to hit for shooting.

4. Making the most of the given opportunities - I had my initial plan on how to try and put up a fight but it was far from perfect. My own deployment was not good in my opinion, with some units in wrong spots (I will talk about that earlier). However, I was prepared to use the tools I had if I had the chance. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. This time they did because my opponent let me to. Position of monsters I mentioned before, exposing the dragon, failed charge with the cavalry prince, overruning without a support (although this one is not a mistake by itself because it was planned for the dragon).

I talked about first two already. Failed charge was unlucky, Galharen needed 7+ and rolled 1,2,4 for charge distance. While I was prepared to hold his character I wonder if at this stage charging with 260+ worth prince at 200 worth archers was worthy risking? If he was winning then sure but he was losing. And there was no good overrun path either. I wonder if it was not a mistake on my part to flee in the first place anyway but still. His character would be exposed and risked being targeted with spells and shooting.

I tried to play to my strengths and minimize my weaknesses but I don't think my opponent did the same. And I think the mistakes he made and that could have been avoided were the main reason things turned out ugly for him rather than above the average rolls I got this time.

I have mentioned already a few things I was not happy with, so here is what I think I should have done better.

1. Deployment - it was very tricky and I will repeat it again that deploying first puts me at a disadvantage. For starters I think I exposed Lions unnecessary. It was hard to predict which side Galharen would favor at the beginning but the more I think about the more it seems that he would have chosen the spot he really picked because it allowed him to get into contact faster and offered good protection thanks to the hill. I should move them turn 1 too, instead they were easy target and fleeing might have seemed unlucky but let's face it, they were good as dead anyway.

I wanted to use shooters soon and have them in position to try and hunt down Frostheart that worked far better than I expected. However, I wonder if swapping Archers and Sisters would have not been better? Archers had better chance to hold Frosty for a while and if ignored or after Frosty died, they could have threaten bolt throwers.

I could not use heavy cavalry well either and I wonder if I was simply too shy or maybe I should have deploy them differently?

2. Swordmasters positioning - I expected that one of the options Galharen considered was charging bolt thrower in a way that allowed him to overrun into Swordmasters. I didn't anticipate his positioning well enough though to see flank charge was possible.

3. Heavy cavalry - I wonder if it was a good idea to actually move both units and fast cavalry to hunt down bolt throwers? I had to deal with enemy reavers too and 3 bolt throwers can hurt a lot but if I attacked from both flanks maybe I would be fast enough to kill them all and not lose too many units in the process? I was concern, however, that I might need them to delay fliers but once Frosty was dead maybe it was good time to try?

I also have one rules question and some things I learned during the game:

Rules question:

How is the direction of the overrun decided when the unit attacks war machine?

I know about "tactical wheels" that allow units to face the direction they want to follow but we had a following situation in our game.

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However, when usually determining the overrun direction you take center to center line. Of course it is easier because fronts of regular units are aligned but sometimes the regiments are not touching bases over their entire front ranks. In such case the overrun direction is at an angle to the front line.

The question then is which is the direction of the overrun in the situation presented in the picture above, center-to-center as 12" tape shows or is it 6" one?

I would greatly appreciate if you could also back you reasoning with relevant page of the rulebook or FAQ. Thanks!

Things I learned

1. BRB page 109 "War machines treat all terrain other than open ground and hills as impassable"

It means that e.g. bolt thrower in the forest cannot be moved out of it (or through it). But can it be placed in such terrain in the first place?

2. Ethereal move (granted by walk between for example) doesn't allow to end up in impassable terrain.

It might not be anything new but I am glad I learned something new :)

Many thanks to my opponent for the game, I hope that he feels much better about our game now. Also, many thanks to all the spectators in the peanut gallery for watching it!

I hope the report was an interesting one and thanks for reading!

Cheers!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:27 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 11.06 on U

#2 Post by Loriel »

Oh boy, Ill try to join the game as spectator! I decided to register allready. At first I was like "awww! Someone has taken Loriel as nickname." then I though about something like loriel87 etc... Then I decided to test out my "regular" password and got in. apparently I have allready registered :P

----

This is really interesting that the prince on steed is with heavy armor instead of dragon armor allthough the increase of 14 points will be hard to find in such list. But personally I would value the 6++ with high magic.

---

Ok some summary analyzation:
- You can easily get all RBT and rather easily reavers so total points 390 (+25 if captured flag)
- He can gather pretty much your every unit. with the sheer movement of those flying monstrosities that are not locked
- Silver Helm bus can be dealt with avoidance as long as Galharen doesn't go for solo ride with his characters, and since he has only few key units, you can much easily surround it.
- You will have very little to use against Frosthearth (death by thousand cuts)
- You will have even less to use against Star Dragon. The only way I could think you might be able to strike this monstrosity down is to have multiple charge with one of SM unit and flank / rear / bsb?. Then challenge, have the Prince kill the champion and laugh when Dragon is immobile. With any luck the prince only does 1 wound and you simply win by static and break the bastard.
- With both of those flying monsters they can reliably kill any of your units in 1 - 2 rounds, so sadly you cannot stall them for the magical 3 round of combat, which would make them effectively waste turn. So both monsters can easily gather enough points to justify their point cost during the game
- I am not complete familiar with ETC so there might be some niche things that might turn this fight over :P



Allthough I would want to say you win, I just don't see it happening (naturally excluding some horrible/awesome dice rolls, something like early turn dimensional cascade with large template doing tons of damage) Perhaps Galharen will be overconfident and you manage to utilize that.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 11.06 on U

#3 Post by Galharen »

I have to say that I long for this game since a long time and I'm extremely happy that we can eventually play against ech other:) (maybe more often soon :) ).

My list has been changing a lot this year and finalIy decided to use this one as a great goodbay to 8th ed and it makes me happy to play with.

Loriel - try to find points for dragon armour on my cav heroes and please share with me how you manage to did it, I will steal this idea immediately:))
Yeah, miscast is what I'm afraid the most every game :D lack of BoWD sucks :D
WFB taught me never to underestimate opponents and their lists as I have already experienced how sad is the feeling when gnoblar kills your stardragon... :lol:
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 11.06 on U

#4 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

The honor is mine, Mr. Galharen! I also hope it is just a beginning of a long series of entertaining games, one day even in real life! :)

I have a very easy solution to your problem of lack of points - play 2500! 8)

I would never assume you might be underestimating your opponents but at the same time where can I hire that lucky gnoblar? :-P
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 11.06 on U

#5 Post by Galharen »

You can't, too late, that gnoblar has been already terminated 8)

Btw, have you brought your minis home?:)
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 11.06 on U

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Damn, maybe I should build a monument for that gnoblar hero!

Yes, I did, I have all the miniatures with me. :)
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 11.06 game

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

The game was played and there were some epic situations. I wanted to thank Galharen for a game and spectators for watching! I will try to provide a report in a few days.

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Prologue

#8 Post by Loriel »

oh the wait! I went to continue my terrain project and though that I come back after little while and reread things at log. but it seems that when the game ends it also kicks everyone out ;)

So the actual conclusion for the match eludes me, but have to say that I didn't see some of the events coming :P
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Prologue

#9 Post by Galharen »

Thanks for the game too, you had for sure more fun than me:)
I don't consider this game as played vs you but vs dices :? , sorry but it was pathetic, as Loriel has forseen.
Lets play rematch then you can write your report, same lists, same rules, cowboy style xD
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Prologue

#10 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Sounds like the dice gods are smiling on Swordmaster with this and the last game. I say post this report, then play a rematch and post that report too. These HE vs HE games are my favourites.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Prologue

#11 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I added Glaharen's army overview I prepared before the game. I will continue with usual Deployment and then the rest of the report in the following days.

@ Loriel

I am really sorry but people were starting to go. At some stage I was waiting for Galharen's reply only to find out my comments don't go through and when I got back to the room he was not there anymore. Then I simply locked the room as it seemed to me you and Elo were occupied elsewhere.

@ Galharen

I am really sorry you feel this way :(

@ Ladril Caledor

Yes, I had some good rolls. But is it the only factor that contributed to the victory? Wait and see :)
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#12 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I added terrain and deployment details to the report. Hopefully I will be able to complete the report over the weekend.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#13 Post by Ladril Caledor »

Yes, I had some good rolls. But is it the only factor that contributed to the victory? Wait and see
Yeah really looking forward to it. I think the Star Dragon list has the advantage 'on paper' and I voted in the above thread that I thought it would win. For the Outcasts to pull out the win I'm expecting to see some excellent decision making along with a tiny bit of luck.

Looking at the deployment, it looks like the Helmbus and Star Dragon are going to go straight into the cluster of units near the BSB. This could play into the Outcast's hands, as their is enough chaff there to block things up and hold them there for a couple of turns, which gives enough time for the remaining MSU units to sweep in and destroy. If I was Galhaner with this deployment I would swing my entire fast army down to the south-west of the map, keeping far from the Outcast's slow infantry, and wipe out the units in that corner with the support of the Frostheart. They could then sweep north and pick favourable match ups. To counter this strategy, if I was Swordmaster I would use the first turn to try and bunch everything together in a tight pincer formation in north-west of the map, use the chaff to draw the dragon, phoenix and helmbus into a position to get multiple charges.

I would be very tempted as the Outcast's to swarm towards the Frostheart in the first turn, as killing it early would put them in a strong position. However I suspect Gulhaner put the Frostheart there as a tempting little iced honey trap, he wants you to go for it and I think the temptation should be resisted. Don't take the bait, keep the MSU units close together and let the Winged Hussar Host come to them, that will eliminate Gulhaner's mobility advantage.

PS Gulhanar: I LOVE that your army is called the Winged Hussars. A direct reference to some of the most devastating cavalry in history, and the name makes so much sense for an army that combines flying monsters and silver helms.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#14 Post by Galharen »

Ladril Caledor wrote: PS Gulhanar: I LOVE that your army is called the Winged Hussars. A direct reference to some of the most devastating cavalry in history, and the name makes so much sense for an army that combines flying monsters and silver helms.
I'm from Poland so that name was basically an obvious choice :)

And some theme stuff :D
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#15 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ladril Caledor,

Thank you very much for your contribution! I really appreciate that you took time to analyze the deployment, even though the end result is already known. I cannot reply to your comments now as I would reveal more details I wanted to share with the report itself so I hope you will forgive me and that it will be still worth waiting for the write up itself.

As to the theme of the Galharen's army I am sure the country of origin has something to do with it :)

Edit: Seems like Galharen replied first :) It is a pity there is no more Kislev as that army was the closest in terms of a theme to feature Winged Hussars.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#16 Post by Galharen »

We just need to convert our silvers/dragon princes. It's the next point on my "to-do-list", Hussar style BSB and dragon princes :)

Kislev was always the Russia for me, apart from already mentioned winged lancers.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#17 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Looking forward to it! I wonder how would you do it (i.e. what would be your design and execution). I thought about it long time ago but decided the back banners in a more Japanese style would fit the miniatures better. But these are of course easier to make :)
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - Deployment

#18 Post by Galdor »

Hi guys,

I'm looking forward to reading this report. It sounds like it was an interesting battle and a shame I didn't watch. I am particularly interested to see how you dealt with the Star Dragon, large silver Helm unit and Frostheart Phoenix, Swordmaster, as I was recently on the receiving end of a 20-0 :oops: by a Host of the Eternity King list featuring those powerful units - among others!

I need to look into this Universal Battle thing too.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#19 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Just letting you know I have just finished the report. I hope you will like it.

I also hope that Galharen is not upset anymore and that he will consider the things I discussed and that I believe contributed to the result of our game.

I am really sorry he felt the way he said because I really tried to provide a challenge with my soft army against his hardcore list. Saying that he lost due to dice implies that I simply didn't deserve the victory at all. That made me quite sad, especially that I dedicated a lot of time to prepare to the game and to make an interesting report that could have been a surprise to the readers.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#20 Post by sparkytrypod »

First off congrats swordmaster, you made the plays and got the win, Cant do much more than that!

I have played with the big beastie star dragon and frost heart alot, i would be a bit sore also if the dragon and frostie went down like that, i think some of the UB rolls were a bit above average...!

You guys gonna have a rematch??
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Thanks a lot sparky!

Tell me about it, I had my own share of crazy dice and harsh situations both on UB and in real life games. I definitely know how does it feel. And yes, I don't deny the rolls were good! I just think that there ways to avoid these situation in the first place as I explained in the after-battle comments.

Don't know about the re-match yet. There are a few players I promised games too and who wait quite a long time already :(
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#22 Post by Loriel »

Army lists
I tried to find something that I disagree with your army list analyze. Sadly I didn't and I couldn't really gave any more ideas.

I only want to underline the most important strategy against Galharen list with your MSU, as you don't have option to redirect those dragon / frostie denying Silverhelm unit victory point generation is the most important factor how to deal this army with MSU. And again depending on the level of boldness on characters, some of those characters might need to risk leaving unit in order to have victory. I think this is the only way you can hope to achieve victory.


Terrain

Those hills were just gifts from gods ;) Having so good cover against rbt multi shots and pretty much opponent that is forced to be extremely aggressive, your elves truly loves them.

Deployment

I also shun the idea of deploying whole army first. this actually raises a question that why don't you prefer shadow warriors? I would think they would be one of the ultimate msu unit ;)


Outcasts - Turn 1

So little math hammer here about the frostie.

Fireball wounds 1/6 , 5/6 past as and 2/3 past ward -> 10/108 hits wounds ~ 9,3 % chance to wound per hit
Up shems wounds 1/3 , 2/3 past ward -> 2/9 hits wounds ~ 22 % chance to wound per hit
Sisters wounds on 1/6 , 5/6 past as and 2/3 past ward -> 10/108 hits wounds ~ 9,3 % chance to wound per hit
Archers wounds 1/6 , 2/3 past as and 2/3 past ward -> 2/27 hits wounds ~ 7,4 % chance to wound per hit

out of 7 wounds he made 2 saves, with 5+ ward, 5+ and 6+ armor. not strongly below average.

Outcasts - Turn 2

Heh this was really epic turn and it was nice to see it in action also in real time.

I think you made one mistake on movement while moving those whitelions as they are compared to reavers. I take your reason was to get out of Star Dragons front arc, so you moved them to sideways. ( think this was your idea here ). You shouldn't left reavers in such angle that they overrun in to wl. as of this moment WL didn't have any support and that would practically give him 85 + 150 + 25 points in 1 turn. instead make SH overrun more to the left. I would have also moved those DP to the left and gain hard cover from the unit and most likely survive barrage of RBTs. Given that neither your WL + DP couldn't challenge that unit it would certainly be enough to force your opponents hand to think again wether reform or overrun. In the battle they fled of board, but that would have been effectively the same. I didn't crunch the numbers but rerolling lance / prince blenders should have taken them all out. but in case 1 would survive due stubborn that would have served a second turn rediction and the movement was worth it.

The Winged Hussar Host - Turn 2
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: The dragon was coming. You could see it flying low and picking up the speed, blood rage in its eyes. ............
This was truly epic situation and I laughed from excitement when it happened;) Excellent story, this was truly the case how the dragon was slain!

I actually mentioned in over the chat in UB, that the way I see Walk Between Worlds will not still let WM to land inside impassable, since ethereal cannot end up movement in impassable and terrain is impassable for the WM.

Outcasts - Turn 3
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Spirit Leech on Prince: cast on a roll of 2,4,6 + 2 = 14 --> failed attempt to dispel 1,1,6 + 4 = 12 --> Loremaster ld9 + 4 vs Prince Ld10 + 2 --> 1 wound, no ward save
Illegal, direct damage cannot be cast inside combat.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Prince vs Swordmasters: 4A on 3+ --> 4 hits, 3 wounds --> 4A swordmasters, 4+ to hit --> 2 hits, 1 wound, saved --> steadfast, passed break test on 3,5
My approx eye think that you would have had enough room to attempt combat reform so that you will not add extra models in to the fight and keep the prince on the corner, so it could be clipped in the corner. This would still allow a clipping charge and gives you 2 extra attack and denys 1 static resolution for the prince.

The Winged Hussar Host - Turn 3

kabom with soul quench.


Summary
I think my opponent gave up too early. While I understand he was upset by losing Star Dragon and both Princes he still had a potent archmage and his soul quench and tempest had a potential to make up for the losses. His bolt throwers were not in danger and I was running out of combat troops to engage his Silver Helm bus. My magic and shooting did great damage but he still had 3 more turns to at least make the difference smaller. 800+ points is a good advantage but it is not an auto win.
I totally agree with you. I always say to my opponent that is about to throw a towel that you should watch Rocky. It ain't over til its over ;) First of all soulquench will do one real havoc on your ranks and can easily kill. Besides due crammed state any failed panic test would almost certainly lead to failed charge. Same goes for tempest and that can be casted outside combat. However doing a total wipe with tempest is much harder. His RBT were getting in to the range (he moved them actually during the battle which doesn't show in your maps ;) )

I cannot say more to this than I agree with the summary.

How is the direction of the overrun decided when the unit attacks war machine?
This is one of the rules in the game that I feel really stupid. I would personally give warmachines base and end this shenanigans. But the way I read, you only need to touch the body of the machine and in a sense it allows you to move the charging unit more freely. thus I see this movement was legal, and the prince overrun too. Atleast in my opinion
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#23 Post by Ladril Caledor »

What an epic game! I think Swordmaster deserves full credit for excellent play, he was the better player in this game and the dice rolls, although a little in the Outcasts favour, didn't seem to outrageous. However I also think Galharens main point in his post match comments was that he really really really wanted a rematch, I don't think he meant that Swordmaster didn't deserve the victory. They are both top players and I think the Hussars list would win most games if they played a long series, but the Outcasts proved they can definitely hang with an ultra mobile power army. I hope Galharen gives Swordmaster full credit for the win and I hope Swordmaster gives Galharen his rematch.

I'm quite happy with how I analysed things in my earlier post as well. Most of my points seemed to be backed up by the events in the game. As I said, withdrawing to the North West was the right move for Swordmaster and I feel like that was the key to this victory.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#24 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Many thanks for comments, guys!

@ Loriel

Indeed, flying monsters (ridden or not) are very tough challenge on their own. They make the game so much more difficult but they look so great on the battlefield! I am not surprised many players have them.

I hope there is something more to what I have written in the army list overview because otherwise it will be an easy task to counter what I suggested (and tried!) this game to put up the fight. I haven't used my own combat troops and BSB against the enemy that much yet. I think there lie some opportunities too although it is very hard to use infantry against flying monsters efficiently.

The hills were gift from Galharen :) He rolled the map and then the scenario and thanks to him I had to choose the side. The hills definitely helped to limit the threat of enemy bolt throwers but it was at a cost too. The army was packed densely and I wonder if that didn't force me to make some mistakes in the deployment anyway.

I would love to add some Shadow Warriors! I love the unit but I lack points to include them. If you were to do so, how many and instead of which unit would you field?

Hm, mathammer is always tricky because it is important to define well what we want to calculate. Is it to calculate the probability, for example, that rolling 2d6 I will inflict 2 wounds on Frostheart with medium Fireball spell? Is it to calculate the probability of each situation that happened? There are many ways of using the results and as many of interpreting them. Could you, please, let me know what did you want to calculate then?

I think that my main conclusion stays the same, no matter what approach you might take and how would you interpret the results of the calculations. The opportunities I had to cast spells and shoot at Frostheart could have been denied with better positioning.

I could not position Reavers differently as I made a mistake of leaving them too far away. I barely reached 18" with them and could only angle Silver Helms like that. I could try to shift Lions to the opposite direction to avoid being overrun but as you said I also wanted to avoid the Dragon. I didn't have champion there to issue a challenge and make sure they would survive the charge. And I could not assume the dragon would stay on a single wound either.

I have never had a situation like that with a crew slaying some big monster. Of course I had nothing to lose and actually, I had no choice. I had to stay as machines cannot flee and I had to roll the dice. It was truly epic situation, stuff of legends although I totally understand that Galharen felt frustrated when mighty Star Dragon was killed by lowly crew member. But these crazy rolls make such epic stories and it inspired me to write that little piece. :)

Damn, you are totally correct with Spirit Leech! My sincere apologies to Galharen for that, I completely forgot about limitations :oops: #-o

In the case of a prince vs Swordmaster Galharen positioned him in the first place so that I could not charge him in my turn yet. After first combat I could attempt combat reform but I wanted to remain steadfast and still have a chance to keep him in the corner. I got it done in his turn where I sacrificed the champion and then preformed said combat reform.

As to the rules question I asked it is more about the direction of overrun itself. I am ok with the wheeling and touching war machine the way you like. I just wanted to know what rules in the rulebook and/or FAQ support the option where overrunning model continues the move in the direction it is facing and not determined by the line going through respective centers, as it is usually the case.

@ Ladril Caledor

I absolutely don't want to make an impression that I think Galharen had any bad intentions. I sympathized with him when the dice were not on his side during the game and I understand the frustration when things turn bad like that. I simply wanted to say that such comment may be also taken as something that belittles your opponent's success and that it indeed made me sad.

The poll I set before the game didn't provide many votes but it was clear that The Winged Hussar Host is a stronger list for those who participated. And I totally agree that it should be successful more often. That is why I felt very happy that I am able to put up a decent fight. It gives me some reassurance for the future games where I might meet a similar force that there is something I can actually do against it. I don't expect to inflict 3 wounds on a monster every time I shoot at it with a bolt thrower of course but the tools are there and I will definitely use that opportunity again if possible.

Now you see why I could not comment on your earlier post :) I am glad I could show your predictions were correct and that you read the diagram correct! Well done! =D>
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#25 Post by Ferny »

In a bid to increase my rl productivity ive been lurking unlogged in, which forces me to not comment...but this is a worthy battle to lure me out.

i remember whinging about this type of match up and you battoned down the hatches and gave solid advice. I also remember a really good discussion about a similar game which like a good game of chess left us all exploring what you would have done had it been played differently. I was especially interested because even with your unflappable optimism you recognise this as a tough match up.

but you had a game plan and you took advantage of opponent error, and that in my book is a wlll deserved win. The dice definitely went your way, and it is super annoying to lose such big points so fast, but you enabled that to happen.

on the point of luck, rbts are the most frustrating unit in our book. They
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#26 Post by Ferny »

Their variance is so high...but they fill a niche nothing else really covers. You can have 4 and miss, fail to wound, save or roll min damage on every damn shot all game. I hate them, usually i find they fail me or at best are unreliable. But sometimes the cookie crumbles like in this game. Or in theory it can do, yet to happen to me
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#27 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny!

Good to see you and to know you are still lurking around! :)

I am glad you enjoyed the report and I am happy some things worked. I am fully aware they are not bullet proof solutions, in fact, they probably happened just once (that eagle claw crew stunt in particular). At the same time this is what you need on many occasions. Imagine this game happened during the tournament. There would be just one shot to win that game and it does not matter how lucky/unlucky the rolls are.

Having said that I would be more than happy to discuss what other deployments were good ideas in this situation, how would Galharen choose the side if he won the roll off to do so, was North-West corner really the best option for me etc.

I am afraid we might not have a chance to do so, however, as there seem to be site migration scheduled this Monday.

Thanks for jumping out of the shadows to comment on the game, I really appreciate that knowing that you are more busy in RL than ever (but I also hope it is busy in the best possible way!).

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#28 Post by Loriel »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I would love to add some Shadow Warriors! I love the unit but I lack points to include them. If you were to do so, how many and instead of which unit would you field?
I probably wouldn't increase shadow warriors past minimun size, allthough I have couple test drives with bigger shadow warrior block. They have always faired really good. I have sometimes played 9 (since I own nine metal warrior) in a cube formation.

In my MSU lists I would include chariots for defensive board control. I have always struggled to make chariots worth while. Mainly due fact, that I always tried to use them offensively and they usually have failed to deliver anything. My 86th (http://loriel.kapsi.fi/WHFB_BR/HE086/BR.html) game against dark elves, really opened my eyes on chariots potential as defensive models. With 9 inch they will hard time for anything coming from the flanks. Naturally my shooting list needed something like that to protect the flanks.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Hm, mathammer is always tricky because it is important to define well what we want to calculate. Is it to calculate the probability, for example, that rolling 2d6 I will inflict 2 wounds on Frostheart with medium Fireball spell? Is it to calculate the probability of each situation that happened? There are many ways of using the results and as many of interpreting them. Could you, please, let me know what did you want to calculate then?
First of all, when I now look at them I probably lost my consistency somewhere in the middle of writing that down. Not only there were some horrible errors in calculation. I corrected them. It was supposed to be a calculation how many hits is needed to cause a wound on frostie. So on average 54 fireball hits will kill the birdy.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: I could not position Reavers differently as I made a mistake of leaving them too far away.
fair enough.
Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: In the case of a prince vs Swordmaster Galharen positioned him in the first place so that I could not charge him in my turn yet. After first combat I could attempt combat reform but I wanted to remain steadfast and still have a chance to keep him in the corner. I got it done in his turn where I sacrificed the champion and then preformed said combat reform.
completely possible with the given situation. Here is small picture of the situation. The thing is that if you first elect that you want to do combat reform (or your opponent wants to do one) then the other player has possibility to do attempt reform too. if both wanna do, then randomize which one does first. Lets assume that galharen wouldn't take "counter reform" or he was randomized to do it first, this is how you could have moved your masters.

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Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: As to the rules question I asked it is more about the direction of overrun itself. I am ok with the wheeling and touching war machine the way you like. I just wanted to know what rules in the rulebook and/or FAQ support the option where overrunning model continues the move in the direction it is facing and not determined by the line going through respective centers, as it is usually the case.
You are actually correct. it is done to the so that the pursuiting (and as overrun is essential pursuit move) facing directly on the fleeing (or destroyed unit in overrun). Page 57 has it pretty good explained. Thus this was illegal. but he could have with the rules charge so that he comes to base contact in the other corner. This would reduced overrun chance by alot as it would taken something like 2-3 inches away from it.
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#29 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Loriel,

Seems like the site is still up so I use the time given for some replies :)

Shadow Warriors, Chariots, Skycutters, Silver Helms, these are the units I would love to add to the list as I think they are great and could help me a lot in many situations. I would need to learn to use them well but I think they would add greatly. However, as always there is that points limitation and you have to let something go to include something else. Even a unit of Shadow Warriors would have to replace a unit that already is in the army. Hard choices and the ones more difficult to make knowing new game is around the corner.

I got you on the mathammer now! These percentages you calculated do not seem to favor me much so I am even more happy that it worked. Given the chance I would do it again because even if I didn't kill Frosty, a wounded one is easier to kill later. It still would have to fly towards me to pose a threat or hide and not be an immediate danger.

I see how you wanted to do it now with the reform, hm, I guess I should have checked more carefully how it was in terms of space left.

As to the direction of pursuit/overrun it was in additional explained in FAQ that it has to be done center-to-center but in this situation I think we made a mistake and if Galharen wanted to overrun towards Swordmasters he would have to position the dragon more to the right. I understand the intention of having the shortest distance to the new unit but I should have discussed that during the game too.

Many thanks for more comments and feedback, very much appreciated!

Cheers!
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Re: MSU HE - Outcasts vs The Winged Hussar Host - 13.06.2015

#30 Post by Jimmy »

Hey SM!

I've got a bit of time up my sleeve so unsure if I'll be able to finish reading but will try!

Firstly this to me represents the typical MSU scenario, you've pitted your force against what appears to be on paper a much more superior foe, you're facing an infamous dragon of course and lots of tooled up characters. It's almost a typical tournament force you'd expect to see from the High Elves so naturally it raises questions of performance against your very own infamous take on the MSU High Elves.

As usual as I sit here and break down the enemy list I simply don't have the experience to comprehend how you get past the opening turns. You've got the ability to re-direct some elements into key positions to inflict some damage but will it be enough to cut a unit off from the mother force and perhaps force your opponent to do something rash and allow you to exploit a situation?

Onto reading!

Deployment

I like how you've created 3 distinct 'teams' and I'd like to think I know you well enough by now to give the opponent something to focus on however remembering each single component of those teams is also capable of becoming a re-director or some other nasty element to a bigger surprise that's so easy to overlook from a confident general.

I certainly wasn't expecting that deployment from the enemy however, I would have thought if you kept the flying elements and block of helms close by then they could literally steam roll a single flank whilst the shooting elements would easily contain or damage enough intervening elements. Interesting. Disclaimer - this is all coming from a general who hasn't commanded High Elves for a long time!! :)

Turn 1

And right away you throw a curve ball that I didn't see and I'm left thinking how did I miss such an obvious move. You've made a remarkable gap between your juicy elements and the enemies and of course he's got more to lose by sitting back and not engaging than you do at this stage of the battle. That's a lot of no elves land to cross and not sustain some damage! The demise of the Frostheart is an incredible display of what focused fire can achieve and you're 10% up already in points terms. Of course Gal literally fights fire with fire toasting some poor elves into oblivion. I'm assuming this was just feeding the Beast SM and throwing something in the way?

Turn 2

Wow it appears the Outcasts certainly have been honing their skills at some Polish school of archery perhaps?? :) Incredible about the Sea Guard crew - amazingly awesome!

Turn 3

Wow Gal did some potent rolling with Soul Quench onto the Swordmasters!

Turn 4

Nothing else to say but congratulations sir. That's certainly in your Top 3 of favourite battle reports for me.

Conclusion

I must also agree that Gal threw the towel in too early and I'm the king of that. He's still got so much shooting support however I certainly understand his calculations. It's unlikely the Silver Helms if they survived the shooting and magical barrages would reach anything significant until turn 6 and by that stage you've probably got cavalry in the rear, a monster in the flank etc.

If there were a re-match on that game alone I wonder how Gal would have deployed differently?

Thanks again gents, glorious report.
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