1600pt Vampire counts vs High Elves

[HammerSim]

Hi all. Just had a games against a friend who plays High Elves.

Here is the battle report.
Any feed back would be appreciated.
Tactical feedback for my friend's High Elves would be great. He is still fairly new so any suggestion on how to beat Vampires would be great.

Thanks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy3tLiw22E4

[Loriel]

I will comment as I go through the report.

since you asked in High Elven P.O.W you shall have it

High Elven list

My personal view is that in 1600 and less games BSB isn't really worth the investment compared to pretty much any extra unit that about 100-150 points could give. Say unit of 10 sisters instead usually has better effect on the game than the noble. And if I would run BSB in such small game I would definately place him inside the main combat unit (in this list White Lions) for couple reason, but mostly to avoid having both general and bsb inside the same unit.

I am one of the most outspoken High Magic user in the Ulthuan forum (I think ) and incase your friend like to read wall of text about the subject tell him about my guide http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=68738 . In short high magic is generally considered rather weak lore and most players tend to leave it alone. I think in this particular list High Magic isn't going to work as greatly as for example lore of shadows / light / life or even beast would.

I also have personal antipathy against support mages and again in such low point cost game I would leave lower level caster out. I do understand that some people want to have dispel scroll or little reliability in magic phase, but I think Book of Hoeth is reliable enough. (you didn't actually mention did he have book of hoeth on the main caster)

Secondly I have hard time landing spearmen nowadays (perhaps the real reason is that I played them too much during 7th edition as they were pretty much core tax) Most Helf players tend to think that Archers are far better choice and I personally prefer silver helms and reavers for core. However against vampire counts I think spearmen are great choice as they can easily fight against skeletons / zombies even gryptghouls and can do decent job in attrition fights where our elite warriors tend to lack bodies to survive those prolonged battles.

I have toyed with idea using great eagles as units, but I would still say that they are simple much better alone. Their greatest use is chaffing, stalling, redirecting and doing all kind of random stuff and annoy opponent. They doesn't significantly benefit going bigger as the unit isn't as expandable anymore. However in right type of battle they can make decent flank / rear charge and help alot. During 7th I used pretty much 2+ eagles in every game, but now Reavers has taken their place. I still think that eagles are far superior as chaff compared to reavers (mainly due fly movement) but having almost same effect on the game on slightly increased cost but from core allowance...

Deployment
This terrain setup is interesting. swamp and rivers are going to make that position great for defence. Against army that doesn't have much ranged threat that is really valuable asset. I personally like to play High Elves aggressively. Even though he did have ranged superiority (most likely soul quench on the casters and sisters) Based on your style (from couple reports I played) you seem to like big zombie blocks. Secondly the "ranged superiority" means that your advance couple turns mean you will most likely summon tons of more zombies to grind. Thus I would personally took the other side of the table. That river / swamp would make your deployment a "living" hell and force your hand with your general march bubble. And the building in the middle would make sisters really happy. Say river of light with biggish zombie blocks... boiling flood.

In this case I would probably fielded sisters inside the rivers protection... or not... Atleast they get a chance to shoot now if the first turn would be high elven... well hard to say.

Turn 1
Hmm perhaps I should reconsider tempest (as currently I think it is the worst spell in high magic ) I was almost absolutely sure that your opponent (based on your own description) would turn those sisters to face wolfs, but he made good call, however he should have moved the eagles right in front of the wolfs to either stall you completety or force a charge. two eagles initiative 5 eagles could have easily killed them.

Turn 2
It seems that you forgot to dispel / take damage from fiery convocation. It is remains in play, or did it do really badly damage on grave guards afterwards?

I am not sure how did you play it, but eagles are usually either 40x40 or 50x50 bases so you get 4 attacks. Or did you just mean that you managed to hit / wound with 3 attacks. You are right rear charge bonus is lost if the model dies or is left of combat as per.

turn 3

Oh you mentioned the fiery convocation here (as I wondered on the last turn, il leave to comment as said I comment as I go through the report ). sadly dispel scroll cannot be used against RIP on subsequental rounds. If you look the rulebook closely it the last sentence "Note also that dispel scroll cannot be used to dispel spells that remain in play other than the moment they are cast."

I think that archmage movement was illegal. You cannot join and leave unit on the same turn, nor go past your units (unless he had arabyan carpet and if he had then he coudln't join the unit )

About the solo lion and grypt horror charge. You actually made illegal charge with horrors as you are forced to maximize the models in contact. Judging from the situation last turn you could have made the charge to lions so that your most top model would ended up in base contact and the lowest model would clip the first rank and touch your grave guards. Thus in this situation your grypt horrors would have being dropped out of combat, making the solo lion more surviable.

turn 4
I don't know if this is due the pictures, but zombies should have maximized their base contact with the spearmen also. That would end up for exta 8 attacks for the high elven and probably forcing you inside the river?

This might also be error in picture but if he didn't march with those eagles he should have

turn 5
charge with horrors. I didn't run the numbers but I think that would have being negative effect on your grypthorrors. What rivers were it either you didn't mention it or just i missed it.

turn 6
Curse of years is hex??? I had to check this out and after seeing it I said "Nice!".

-----

After thoughs. I was really surprised how well high magic worked for him.

Just out of curiosity did you remember to roll for mistwreathed swamp each turn? so many turns inside the swamp, you were bound to have many casualties in the zombie unit

[HammerSim]

1: (you didn't actually mention did he have book of hoeth on the main caster)
A: Yep I forgot to mention it but he had it on his general.

2: I have toyed with idea using great eagles as units, but I would still say that they are simple much better alone.
A: This was a mistake on my opponents end. He had bought 3x great eagles on Army Builder in 1 unit thinking that he can deploy them individually.
I pointed out during deployment that you are only allowed to have 2 rare choices of the same type. So he combined 2 of them.

3: Deployment
A: I agree with your assessment. My opponent did have a long hard think about which side to play on. And I kind of was thinking that I prefer the open side because once one of my units fall behind due to terrains like the river, then I either have to slow down my whole army to keep it in the general's bubble or leave it behind to move 4". But in the end I think the hill protected by the river was too tasty a treat to ignore. But I personally would have had the sister on the hill inside the river, then it could have fired at more important units like my grave guard or crypt horrors and softened them up substantially.


Turn 2
"It seems that you forgot to dispel / take damage from fiery convocation. It is remains in play, or did it do really badly damage on grave guards afterwards?"
I dispelled it using my dispel scroll, which I just got told might be a mistake(oh I just read your post about it, then it definitely was a mistake). If I had known that, I would have thrown as many of my power dice as I could to dispel it.

"I am not sure how did you play it, but eagles are usually either 40x40 or 50x50 bases so you get 4 attacks."
They are 50x50. After the white lions and eagles attacked I only had 13 models in my unit and only 3 in the rear rank(although I think there might be a rule that says you can attack with a full rank in the rear regardless of how many models). I attacked the white lions with 10 and 3 against the eagles. But as luck would have it I did the needed wounds. Kepe in mind I still had Vanhels buff from the previous round so I got re-rolls to hits, and my banner of Barrows makes me 3+ to hit.


turn 3
"I think that archmage movement was illegal. You cannot join and leave unit on the same turn, nor go past your units (unless he had arabyan carpet and if he had then he coudln't join the unit )"

Yeah I thought that might have been the case, but it was getting late and he was taking ages with his movement of the mage so I just let him have it lol.

"About the solo lion and grypt horror charge. You actually made illegal charge with horrors as you are forced to maximize the models in contact."
Yep I can see that now you mention it. It didn't matter in the long run because when it was a single White Lion my grave guard unit killed him.
If anything this affect me worse because I would have preferred to leave combat and charge the spearmen.

turn 4
"I don't know if this is due the pictures"
Yep, sorry I was in a rush doing the reports, and by the time I noticed this error was editing the video and was too lazy to go back, but it was maximized during the game.

"This might also be error in picture but if he didn't march with those eagles he should have "
That was his decision....no idea why.

turn 5
"charge with horrors. I didn't run the numbers but I think that would have being negative effect on your grypthorrors. What rivers were it either you didn't mention it or just i missed it."
It was the river that gave me +3 initiative but lose rank bonus. I thought that might be worth it to charge because I still get rank bonus from my zombies and I would have negated his bonus.
But then again, he could have smashed my zombies(which he did) and the combat resolution would have made me lose some crypt horrors.

turn 6
"Curse of years is hex??? I had to check this out and after seeing it I said "Nice!". "
Yeah I quite like it.


"Just out of curiosity did you remember to roll for mistwreathed swamp each turn? so many turns inside the swamp, you were bound to have many casualties in the zombie unit"
Yep, because my general was in the unit I was using his initiative. I failed twice, took 1 wound first time and 6 the second time. But the 6 wounds happened on a turn where I used Invocation so I healed them beyond the starting size anyway.

Really appreciate the comments, I will get my friend to read up on your magic post as well as this one. I'm sure he will learn a thing or two, I know I have.

[Loriel]

They are 50x50. After the white lions and eagles attacked I only had 13 models in my unit and only 3 in the rear rank(although I think there might be a rule that says you can attack with a full rank in the rear regardless of how many models).

Yep there is nice diagram in BRB on page 49 where the incomplete rank situation is covered up. On little side note supporting attacks cannot be made by models that are in base contact with enemy them self.

"About the solo lion and grypt horror charge. You actually made illegal charge with horrors as you are forced to maximize the models in contact."
Yep I can see that now you mention it. It didn't matter in the long run because when it was a single White Lion my grave guard unit killed him.
If anything this affect me worse because I would have preferred to leave combat and charge the spearmen.

The way to get the grypt horros out of the situation so that they can even move next turn (due 1 inch rule) you could have reformed with grave guards so that the unit slides little bit to the left and the grypthorros would have had able... (or not) to move past the grave guards. Yep it didn't matter in this match, but charge maximation is something that can lead in to victory or defeat. Most often it comes to the fact how overruns are made and sometimes it is really important.

turn 5
"charge with horrors. I didn't run the numbers but I think that would have being negative effect on your grypthorrors. What rivers were it either you didn't mention it or just i missed it."
It was the river that gave me +3 initiative but lose rank bonus. I thought that might be worth it to charge because I still get rank bonus from my zombies and I would have negated his bonus.
But then again, he could have smashed my zombies(which he did) and the combat resolution would have made me lose some crypt horrors.

I have one friend (unfortunately he hasn't played in couple years) but at the time he played he preferred big zombie blocks and invication spam. It was almost always the case why he lost the battles that he charged some bigger things like vargulfs / graveguards etc. in to the battle and zombies just lose the combat due zombies negative effect on CR. For us elves generating combat resolution from lowly enemies is easy due high WS and rerolls to hit.

Really appreciate the comments, I will get my friend to read up on your magic post as well as this one. I'm sure he will learn a thing or two, I know I have.

I hope this helps a bit. Naturally that is my personal take on High magic and it has worked for me quite well. There are couple brilliant articles for high elves too. For example this great eagle tip and tricks article is excellent and should be read by every high elven player. http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=33028

and book of hoeth statistics is also another great thing to read

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=45362