sparky's Emerald Isle blog(20k battle update)

[sparkytrypod]

right its about time I started one of these blog things. I spend enough time here that I might as well try and contribute in my own small way to the collective knowledge that is here in this forum.
Hopefully I can motivate myself to keep it updated!

quick intro on myself:
-from Ireland
-been playing about 3 years
-started with a mordheim elf war band and before I knew it I had an army of plastic soldiers
-my buddies and i have grown our club (The Mordheim Men's Club) during these years from humble beginnings of 3 guys to 20 members with 14 being active regularly
-this year saw 2 of us attend our biggest tournament, Sheffield slaughter with 102 players I think, we hope to travel to more events outside ireland as it was awesome!
-I have an interest in tournaments/tournament armies/the game in general but not necessarily in bringing the filth myself.

Army styles
-almost exclusively play 2400, with light comp, 2 character LOS V dwellers etc, no end time characters
- in the days of our old book I was a massive fan of msu swordmaster based lists, but as the edition has worn on and with the advent of our new army book I found I couldn't deal effectively with meta changes and new army books
-from that I moved to various cav prince lists
-before I power creeped onto silverhelm bus with star dragon, all the bells and whistles.

now I have finally come full circle and gone back to what attracted my mates and I to warhammer.... units & mobility!

therefore I present my current list for comments and whatnot:

Lords
prince, heavy arm, lion cloak, long bow, shield, ogre blade, dragonhelm, potion of foolhardiness, talisman of pres, griffon, asf, devastating charge
loremaster, book, armour of fortune, cloak of beards

heroes
noble, bsb, dragon arm, golden crown, star lance, ench shield, great eagle
mage, lvl 1 shadow, scroll, khaines ring of fury

core
archers x 15 champ, standard
archers x 15 champ, standard
reavers x 5
helms x 5 champ, shields
helms x 5, champ, shields

special
dragon princes x 5 champ, standard
dragon princes x 5 champ
shadow warriors x 7

rare
bolt thrower
bolt thrower
eagle

[sparkytrypod]

I am 2 games in with my new style, so far so good, 2 high elf wins.

I will give a brief description of the games from what I remember below.

Game 1 V wood elves 16-4
played against a standard enough wood elf list, with a few quirks: sister bus (lvl 4 heavens, hail of doom bsb, lvl 2 shadow), 2 units of wild riders, 1 unit of way watchers, 2 units of poison scouts, 2 true flight units, 2 units of glade riders, unit of wardancers (because yeah!)

I get first turn luckily,sacrificed a unit of dragon princes & frenzy baited wild riders successfully, sent in the lord on griffon, wild riders hold on steadfast, all according to plan, encirclement happens with my cav, my shooters deploy centrally and dominate the middle of the board, I break wild riders in his turn allowing me a reform, I charge his sister bus, they have a terrible flee roll, I catch and destroy, cue failed panic checks, mop up time

Game 2 V new age/marked beastmen 14-6
loremaster is spirit leached turn 1! turn 2/3/4 griffon is amber speared and prince is caressed to death, the rest of the table as mine, dragged the beastmen units apart and around the table with my mobility, as my friend had left his beast lord at home, general was only ld 9, anything outside his bubble was vulnerable, panicked the large block of gors with BSB by clearing some ungor raiders, charged them off the table in my turn, panicked unit of blight kings, at M4 this puts them out of the game. Turn 6 combo charge his bestigor unit with 2 dragon prince units, 15 archers and shadow warriors, clear the bestigor unit & 2 lvl2's, however his general & blight kings remain alive.

key learnings
-with this list sacrifices have to be made for rewards, sacrifice of dragon princes to bait wild riders! to get an 18 or 20 with this list is very tough
-the characters are vulnerable therefore it bleeds points, point in case, the beastmen game above, even though my opponent only had 6 models remaining it was still only 14-6 due to losing the loremaster and prince
-mobility is the name of the game, playing fast means you set the tempo, making your opponent dance to your tune

[Arhain]

If ever you start to worry about your flying characters getting shot down too quickly , is make some points for one of the phoenixes for some target saturation. Are your foot characters both going in archer units? I would worry a bit about that, but maybe it's a play style thing

The Champs in your SH units are an odd choice, why not banners or a musician?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi there!

I like the theme of the army a lot and prince on griffon is just fantastic! I will definitely read your blog as I am very intrigued by your approach. It's simply great to see so many cavalry units!

Cheers!

[sparkytrypod]

@arhain
if I take a phoenix, I lose dragon princes and they are the only hard hitter in the list really!

depending on the match up loremaster can hang out with the shadow warriors for fast, flexible movement or archers, the shadow lore attribute is your friend here also! if someone is putting resources into trying to claim my archers, so far that has meant I am surrounding them with cav. for the killer charge, sacrifices must be make and sometimes the humble archer must die for the cause!

generally the silverhelms are 2 wide and don't need a musician for reforms, however in the age of 75% characters a champ can save the day. allowing the griffon lord to go to town on a unit, or just delay a lone character etc.

@swordmaster
thanks! the prince/griffon is so so fragile though! its so easy to put wounds on that you constantly have to mind it!

[sparkytrypod]

game 3 V wood elves
the list:
wood elves have lvl 4 light steed, 2 lvl 1's light steeds, (no bsb!!), 15 hagbane, 12 trueflight, 8 glade rider hagbane, 3 units of 6 wild riders, 8 waywatchers, 2 units of hagbane scouts, unit of 7 sisters of thorn with stand of discipline, 2 eagles

Terrain: 3 woods, a hill, ruins, building.

Deployment: bolters center of the table on the backline. archers on hill on my left, along with 2 dragon prices, eagle ,lord and bsb, reavers and helms center, other helms far right. scouts on his far left flank.

Game: I didn't get turn 1....and it went down hill from there. both bolt throwers poisoned, 1 unit of dragon princes, all gone! magic contained.
my turn 1, I move up hard with remaining dragon prince unit, and 2 characters to zone sister bus, eagle used to frenzy bait wild riders. magic was low, 3 dice, but got the scroll with fireball.

Woodies turn 2, wild riders into eagle, wild riders into scouts (scouts sacrificed as wild riders will overrun off the board and out of the game essentially). banishment plus shooting kill the griffon and take 2 wounds off the prince. dragon princes lose 2 more souls, glade riders arrive, poison and finish reavers.
HE turn 2, BSB & 3 dragon prices go for sister bus which holds(sister bus was 9" away from table edge) and both make it! lost a dragon price to Dangerous Terrain. prince runs to archers for safety, helms are moving forward on the right flank to no avail. for magic I get a big phase, I get ice shard and boosted miasma off on the sister bus. I put 2 wounds on the WE lvl 4, kill 1 lvl 1, lost a dragon prince so only the champion left. I win the combat but sister bus holds on steadfast.

WE turn 3, start clearing helms and archers, magic contained. I finish off the lvl 4 and lvl 1, sisters hold on steadfast.
HE turn 3, prince jumps unit to other archers with loremaster and lvl 1, low winds of magic, uneventful, fail miasma on 2 dice with book of hoeth! break the remaining sisters, run them down and lose my dragon price champ to dangerous terrain!!

WE turn 4, helms shot off, wild riders chance a long rear charge on my exposed BSB, I cant flee as chasing down the remaining sisters has left me close to the table edge, wild riders make it, bsb fails fear test and takes 2 wounds but holds!
HE turn 4, all I have left is 1 unit of archers with my characters, 1 unit of archers with 2 models and my BSB! magic is looking good, got 8 dice....loremaster irresistible's a medium fire ball on 3 dice, kills 6 waywatchers and blows up some archers, I also lose my 5 remaining power dice! waywatchers pass panic. BSB fails fear again, (4 rolls in a row!!) and goes down. I shoot off remaining waywatchers. all panics passed.

Turns 5 & 6 can be summed up as me retreating into the corner throwing out magic missiles and regen which got me a unit of wild riders and eagle.

in the end I had 1 archer unit, loremaster, lvl 1 and prince left. I killed, 1 unit of wild rider, all characters, sisters, 1 eagle and waywatchers.

I havnt counted it up yet, but keeping the prince alive is making it look like a small/medium loss, learnings & actual score to follow tomorrow!

[SpellArcher]

Hi Sparky

I too like the list, very mobile and space for skill to make a difference. Nice work nailing the Sister bus in both WE games! Normally this is close to uncatchable but it's so easy for players to forget the 360% reform in their turn followed by charge in yours. Sounds like a real rearguard action in the last game.

One of the guys from Asrai.org, Mollesvinet, took a BSB-less list to the tourney I've just played. First turn some git on a disc flies by and breathes fire all over his bunker, panicking General off the board. Oh dear. Wardancers are actually turning up in the armies of some quite decent players now.

New BM's look very interesting though I guess you retain your speed and shooting advantages here.

[Breezly]

Love the list Sparky...units and mobility is what drew me to HE as well. I have two HE characters on eagles that I have yet to figure out how to keep them alive. Very interested in how you progress with the army. I have my characters miunted on Cockatrices and love the way they look (noble and bsb), and I want to get them into an MSU style HE list. Looking forward to how you progress with your army.

--Breezly

[sparkytrypod]

hi guys,

thanks for the comments, big post incoming....
myself and my mate have decided to run our club tourney this weekend..st patricks week and all that there will be 8-14 of us so there is a bit of work involved in getting my shed ready, terrain & boards organised, prizes etc!
the below is our comp for it, we bounced around some ideas, and while its not perfect(what comp is!) we have put this together.
all armies are 2400 apart from any legions, hosts, demons and warriors which are 2200, note beastmen get 2600 get marks, and blightkings. dwarfs get 2600 if no war machines are taken

it will be a 0ne day 3 game event

while we have allowed special characters, none of us will use them!

feel free to leave feedback

as I have only played a couple of games with my all cav list, il probably take a more traditional approach for this, list to follow in the next post!

Sparky Con 3 is going to be all about units. You’ll see below that the army comp and battle points are
not just about making the hardest list possible and scoring more victory points than your opponent,
you’ll have to secure secret missions, protect your fortitude while trying to break your opponents.
Yes you can bring all the big toys, but you’ll need to sloggers to capture objectives.

General Rules
 -All armies must be chosen from the list in the army comp section using the correct point’s
value for that army.
 -Up to two characters per unit will get a lookout sir against any spell that targets, and kills,
every model in the unit: Dwellers below, The Dreaded Thirteenth and Final Transmutation.
 -The official GW FAQ will be used in full effect. For time management purposes some rulings
will need to be made in order to get the game going. These rulings are final. For anything not
covered here, the ETC FAQ will be used.
 -Folding fortress is banned
 -Heroes and Lords combined cannot exceed 50% of your points.
 -Units at roster creation are allowed to be up to 500 points or 80 models.
 -You may use up to 5 dice for casting spells and any amount for dispelling spells.
 -You are allowed to use a maximum of 12 power dice per magic phase and generate up to an
additional 2 dice per phase.
 Special and named characters/champions are allowed.

FAQ
 -Units raised from the lore of Undeath give up VPs when destroyed
 -You cannot increase your fortitude by raising more units using the lore of undeath
 -Where you would be able to raise a monster using the lore of Undeath this does not include
characters riding monsters
 -If all of your remaining fortitude is in one unit you are considered broken.
 -In the Khaine book you cannot take 4 RBT for each rare and special choice as these are not
high elf or dark elf armies. When take units from the Khaine book you will be restricted to 5
in total, 3 for special and 2 for rare.
 -You cannot move out of a building unless it is in the remaining moves phase.
 -You cannot enter a building if you have also swift reformed in the same turn.
 -None of the God Ascendant or Daemon summoning etc... special rules from The Glotkin
book will be in effect however you will be using the reign of chaos table.
 -Khaine magic will not be used
 -God ascendant rules will not be used

Scoring
There will be a maximum of 18 Tournament points to be gained from each game.
 4 Tournament points for keeping your fortitude
 4 Tournament points for breaking your opponent’s fortitude
 4 Tournament points for completing one mission
o 2 Extra Tournament points for completing both missions
 4 Tournament points for scoring more than 200 points than your opponent
o 1 Tournament point if neither player achieves this objective


Champion
The Champion will be the player with most “Tournament Points”, if two people are tied, the
following factors will be used:
1. Who has completed the most missions
2. Who has scored the most Victory points
TP>Secret Missions>VPs

Secret Missions
You must decide from at the start of the game, before rolling for spells which two secret missions
you will try to achieve during the game from the pool of six. You can only play one of the missions
throughout the tournament, so once you have played it once, you cannot play it again.
To play a mission, place the two cards face down at the start of the game in your deployment zones
table edge.

The Missions
1. Cut off the head
 Kill the opposing General (Not including any mount).
2. Capture the Flag
 Seize more standard points than your opponent. Each standard is worth 1 and the
bsb 2. Any standards seized and consequently lost, do not count.
3. Hold the tower
 Hold more buildings than your opponent with scoring units. The tower can be
controlled by a unit that is within 3 inches of the tower and above 25% starting
strength, as long as no other enemy unit is also within 3 inches.
4. Domination
 Have more scoring units left at the end of the game in your opponent’s deployment
zone than he has in yours.
5. Take the high ground
 Have more scoring units on hills at the end of the game than your opponent.
6. Kill the warriors
 Destroy or reduce all core units in the enemy’s army to below 25% starting strength.

Scoring Units
Only units that generate fortitude can claim objectives such as units with banners, your BSB and
General.
Units with the following special rules cannot claim objectives
 Scouts, Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers, units that arrived from ambushing, Fly. General and BSB
are exempt.

[sparkytrypod]

New BM's look very interesting though I guess you retain your speed and shooting advantages here.

I think people underestimate beastmen a bit, in the hands of a good player they are very tricky. I don't know how every beastmen player is not taking at least 4 units of 5 slanesh ungor raiders, they are perfect chaff.
also doombulls with 3+ ward, 1+ armour, with sword of striking, an extra attack for every armour save they make in close combat AND an extra attack for every combat they win! I have seen a doombull pump out 15 attacks per turn before!! note, the armour save attacks are not "profile" attack.

[SpellArcher]

Oh I'm not saying your list is stronger than the best the new Beastmen can bring Sparky.

Just that shooting and movement are two substantial tools for you.

[sparkytrypod]

busy couple of weeks for me coming up, club tourney this weekend, possibility of 1k doubles tourney next weekend and 2.4k tourney the week after, action packed!

right as promised, my list for my tournament this weekend:


lords
archmage, scroll, talisman of pres, khaines ring
loremaster, book, armour of fortune

heroes
noble, bsb, arm of caledor, halberd
noble, barded steed, dragon arm, ogre blade, dragon helm, shield
noble, barded steed, luckstone, star lance, ench shield, potion of foolhardiness,

core
21 x archers FC
5 x reavers
12 sliver helms, shields FC

special
28 x phoenix guard FC razor standard

rare
3 x bolt throwers

as you can see it ended up being similar to seredains current roster! the big difference is my bumped up phoenix guard and the fact that its 2400.

the bumped up number is essential I believe to capture and hold objectives especially when I might have to grind through 40 gors, 50 dwarf warriors and units of skaven

comments welcome!

[sparkytrypod]

gonna post up the lists the other guys will be playing with at the weekend, first few to follow.

first list up is wood elves, a light council. I love this list, I think it has great mobility, firepower and it can hit hard with 3 wild rider units!

wood elves
Spellweaver (310)
Level 4, light, elven steed, dispel scroll, talisman of preservation
Captain (160)
BSB, steed, hail of doom arrow, obsidian trinket, enchanted shield
Spellsinger (90)
elven steed, light
Spellsinger (90)
elven steed, light

Core
Glade guard x15 (245)
musician, standard, hagbane arrows
Glade guard x12 (180)
trueflight arrows
Glade riders x8 (176)
hagbane arrows

Special
Deepwood Scouts x8 (128)
hagbane arrows
Deepwood Scouts x8 (128)
hagbane arrows
Sisters of the thorn x6 (181)
standard of discipline
Wild riders x6 (174)
shields
Wild riders x6 (174)
shields
Wild riders x6 (174)
shields

Rare
Great eagle (50)
Waywatchers x7 (140)

second up is beastmen, so magic resistance and ward saves everywhere! all units hit blight kings on 5's making them serious road blocks. plus 2 big units, loads of chaff and a blender doombull!

Beastlord - General, Mark of Tzeench, Shield, Armour of Destiny, Sword of Anti Heros, Many Limbed Fiend - 258
Doombull - Mark of Tzeench, Heavy Armour, Shield, Ramhorn Helm, Sword of Striking, Tali of Pres, Gnarled Hide - 363
Great Bray - Lore of Shadow, Mark of Tzeench, Dispell Scroll, Fencers Blades, Tali of Endurance, LVL 4 - 335

HEROES
Bray - Additional hand weapon, lore of Death, LVL 1, scroll of shielding, obsidian amulet - 122
Wargor - BSB, Mark of Tzeench, Arm of Fortune, Gold Sigil Sword,shield - 172.

CORE
Gors - Full Command, 38 additional hand weapons - 329
Ungor Raiders - 10, musician, Mark of Slannesh - 73
Ungor Raiders - 5 -Mark of Slannesh - 30
Ungor Raiders - 5 -Mark of Slannesh - 30
Tuskgor Chariot - Mark of Khorne - 90
Tuskgor Chariot - Mark of Khorne - 90

SPECIAL
Bestigor Herd - FC, 34 - 453
Blightkings - 5, FC, Banner of Swiftness - 245

[sparkytrypod]

and the next one I have so far is a warriors list, featuring a few unusual suspects! so the reason for this is that we gave warriors 2400 if they all took the same mark and only 2200 if mixed marks. great to see ogres on the field for WOC! and having some knights, that's old school!

Daemon Prince – 505pts
Daemon of Slaanesh,Chaos Armour, Flaming Breath, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder, Daemonic Flight, Charmed Shield, Level 4 Wizard & Lore of Slaanesh.
Exalted Hero – 190pts
Mark of Slaanesh, BSB, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation.
Chaos Sorcerer – 200pts
Mark of Slaanesh, Chaos Familiar, Dispel Scroll, Level 2 Wizard & Lore of Shadow.

Core
Chaos Chariot – 115pts
Mark of Slaanesh
5 x Chaos Warhounds – 40pts
Vanguard
5 x Chaos Warhounds – 40pts
Vanguard
23 x Chaos Warrios – 413pts
FC, Mark of Slaanesh, Shields & Banner of Swiftness.

Special
5 x Chaos Knights – 255pts
FC, Mark of Slaanesh, Lances & Banner of Eternal Flame.
8 x Chaos Ogres – 364pts
Musician, Standard Bearer, Mark of Slaanesh & Great Weapons.
Chimera – 275pts
Regeneration & Flaming Breath

[sparkytrypod]

right so quick update, our club tournament clashed with Ireland V wales 6 nations match, therefore we only got 2 games of our 3 done before we had to drown our sorrows
so just a quick note:
game one against wood elves
the list mentioned above, horrible game! bolt throwers poisoned off by turn 2, wild rider unit failed a frenzy test, went into my PG with characters, I didn't kill the unit, disaster!1 wild rider held, which ruined my magic phase next turn, it also meant that for the wood elf shooting phase, he concentrated all his fire power and magic on my silver helms, one IF banishment and round of waywatcher shooting, all silver helms dead!2 nobles get the same the next turn, PG and character picked on for 3 turns of shooting and magic, totally destroyed. 0-20 (16-0 in TP)

Game 2 V warriors of chaos mentioned above:
knights blast through ogres, then reform, pg walk between worlds into the warrior units face. demon prince is then out of position on a flank. pg hold the warrior charge, knights charge and clear warriors with the PG, archers + bolters wrap up the chaos knights & chimera. Demon prince heads home after a dimensional cascade! 20-0 (18-0 in TP)

I know I am being very brief on the write ups, just hitting the key moments really. however I will expand upon my thoughts on the units/army in the next post!

for now what I will say is that the comp we set ourselves and the importance of missions & fortitude added so much to everyones games. we capped/maxed ourselves at 18TP, which unless you annihilated some one was very hard to get, my games were total outliers in comparison to all the others. Just keeping your fortitude was as important as winning the game or completing a mission. trying to guess your opponents missions added to the games also.

[sparkytrypod]

quick unit/character analysis from the list I was using (4 posts above)

Archmage, scroll, talisman of pres, khaines ring
-solid and combined with the ability 2 cast most spells on 2 dice
-however I don't know if he is worth the 300 ish investment, especially when the loremaster is so dice hungry
-obviously the PG getting the 3++ is great,
-hand of glory combos well with ice shard and miasma, meaning you are getting hit on 5+ regularily, as your opponent cant stop every thing.
-khaines ring is ace, 1 dice at the start or end of the magic phase, if it goes off, sweet big decision for your opponent depending on the target.

loremaster, book, armour of fortune
-star of the show, sooo many options
-also having a character striking at a different initiative step can be usefull for taking that last wound off enemy characters
-book is essential I think, makes him so much more reliable, 2 dice spells all day
-the next step is to see if he can handle duties by himself...

the heroes don't need much analysis, all performed well, being able to run the mounted guys solo is a great option, chaos chariots can be smashed by a noble, can tank certain units, for example blight kings can be slowed down by a 1+ luckstone noble for a turn no problem, allowing you to deal with them.

regarding the core, archers are solid no change, silver helms are so average its not even funny. how seredain manages with only 12 or so il never know! reavers do what reavers do. same for bolt throwers.

the one thing I did not like about the list was the lack of units. if the nobles were running in the helms, I had 2 combat units essentially, neither of which hits exceptionally hard. once you come up against T5 and over I was struggling to consistently put wounds on models. also once the silver helms run into WS 4 and above opponents, hit output drops.

this will lead me to my next list for a tournament on the 28th of march, however I wrote it when I was hungover (I had to submit it for a deadline) so I left one valuable item out...

list to follow

[Loriel]

are you planning of making more detailed battlereporst. I would be more than interested to read them.

I agree that Archmage + Loremaster is rather big investment and most likely you would end up points better spend elsewhere. I have personal issue of fielding only level 2 (eventhough book of hoeth gives efective +2 to cast / dispel) this is mostly due the fact that I like to dispel my opponent

My personal feeling of silverhelms is that many players are fielding them since they are core and find out that they don't deliver as expected. I found out that fielding small units 5 or 9 darts seems to be the key here. They are not enough threat to be taken too seriously, but can land decisive extra combat resolution and clear/deny enemy chaff very effectively. Bigger units just will take enourmous ammount of heat and they tend to lack enough pushing power when the actual fight begins.

[sparkytrypod]

thanks for the comments loriel, perhaps I shall, I don't have much time at the moment though, il try.

regarding the loremaster you may be right, but I think I will try him solo for a few games none the less.

as for silver helms, yes it is because they are core. I think reavers are losing their usefulness a bit depending on what kind of comp is played in your area, combat units are disappearing fast around here so they become less usefull.

it st Patricks day so I don't think il get that list up today, tomorrow perhaps

[Andros123]

I'll look forward to the battle reps as well .

As for your list, I've been running something similar for quite some time now. However, after some concerns about mobility and the helm bus being too fragile, I tweaked my list a bit. Basically it now consists of Loremaster, high archmage, big archer unit, silver helm darts and reavers, 20 phoenix guards, 4 bolt throwers and a frost phoenix. It is more mobile and can pump out a lot of damage at range.

When I saw the wood elf list you were playing, I had a very bad feeling about that matchup. I've been playing the kind of list a lot of times, and it is just brutal. In my experience it is all about keeping those bolt throwers and archers alive for as long as possible. Even if it means you have to push with your silver helms or reavers, in order for him to shoot at them instead. Soul Q and fireballs for the win here .

I'm very curious about what you think about your selection of items on your characters. Satisfied? Like Seredain I opted for the ogreblade, gem of sunfire, scroll, shield of the myrwyrm on the loremaster and book of Hoeht + talisman of pres on the high mage. I can't tell you how many times those 3 strength 6 attacks with armour piercing from the loremaster have turned combat in my favour. On the other hand he could also use the book.. You seem very happy with that combo, right?

[sparkytrypod]

@andros, thank you, god the pressure is on for battle reports now

il respond to your first point last as it encompasses my list for my next 2400 event on the 28th.

regarding the wood elf list, I think its a super list, after you use your scroll you will either be hit by banishment or net of amontek each turn with very little you can do, just pick your poison!poisoned scouts, 15 poisoned core and poisoned ambushing glade riders make it hard to protect those bolt throwers, 2 poisons and one is dead!
ya that's the strategy, however when those wild riders held me for a turn, everything moved out of soul quench range, making it easy to make dispelling fireball a priority

on item selection, death is everywhere in Ireland (LOL) so I cant afford to leave the loremaster without a true ward, in this case I think, apart from that I am always a merwym shield, sword of might and book man once the banner is in play.
I was happy with archmages kit. the BSB's on the other hand, is only ok, I feel that a savy player would just pick him off though. nobles performed fine for in their roles, however they cant handle the nasty nasty stuff.

which leads me to the evolution...

Lords
prince, barded steed, heavy arm, shield, dragon helm, dawn stone, giant blade, potion of foolhardiness
loremaster, book of hoeth, talisman of pres

Heroes
noble, bsb, barded steed, dragon armour, enchanted shield, luck stone, ogre blade

Core
21 archers FC
6 silver helms, shields, champ, standard
5, silver helms, shields, champ
5 reavers

Special
12 dragon princes FC BOTWD
25 phoenix guard FC razor standard

Rare
bolt thrower
bolt thrower

now obviously I am missing....a scroll! shock horror, so I think so long as I avoid dwellers I should be ok!! final trans isn't seen much in these parts.

I think I hit harder and more consistently now with better grinding power. all I want from a combat phase is one buff from the loremaster and the dragon prince bus becomes very good.

comments all welcome

[Cold Phoenix]

I'll throw is my 2 cents:

I'm really not sure about the Loremaster. Sure, having all the sig spells is good, but I don't feel that he really helps address the problems this list might have. At the moment I can see a nasty Lord with a non-magical weapon as being a great problem for you. A Chaos Disklord with a 1+, 3++ rerolling 1s, Stubborn Crown and GW would be very bad. He could just head straight for the Dragon Prince bus, kill your prince over 2-3 rounds of combat, then grind down the bus... By the same token, I'd also be worried about a Black Knight bus with mundane weapons on the Vampires.

The other problem I have with this list is pretty simple; if your opponent gets a 5-6 dice magic phase, they can use all those dice to cast one spell (such as Choir, Doom and Darkness, Mindrazor, Arcane Unforging, Walk between Worlds) and you won't be able to stop it. Dwellers isn't the only spell which can end a game.

I'd also consider adding some more RBTs. My personal experience with them in a bus list is that you need them 3+ for the board control, softening up threats or finishing off units. 2 just aren’t enough to have the same affect.

Anyway, hopefully some of my rambling was helpful .

[sparkytrypod]

hi cold phoenix,

guess il give you my responses!

to be honest I am just experimenting with the loremaster on his own.
versus to chaos lord you mentioned, unless you have doom & darkness, arcane unforging, insta-kill spells, how do you deal with this lord?
in this case & depending on opponents magic, characters can be torpedoed out of the bus/run solo, does this chaos lord want to go into a big unit of phoenix guard?i don't think so, if I got the opportunity id charge him with dragon princes ,PG less characters, or even archers, could probably lock him down for 3 game turns with princes or archers, or the rest of the game with PG, concentrate on getting the rest of the army then. its tricky but a small win can be gotten I think.

regarding a black knight bus, I think this is a bit easier, I have redirectors, 3 of them, black knight bus might not see combat if I play well. kill the rest! hexwraith don't bother me, they can play with the archers if they want until I am ready to deal with them, slash attacking the bus is useless and doing it to the PG not much better. same goes for terrorgheists, plus archers and rbts should take a couple of wounds off a TG.
alternatively I can concentrate on the black knight bus, play for spirit leach, searing doom every turn and bolt throwers, one of the vamps will have 4++ at best, would you risk a roll off for one of your best characters?(spirit leach) so once his scroll is gone, its one or the other he is getting hit with.

regarding the 5-6 dice magic phase, what do you do normally when your scroll is gone? prioritize! you let soul blight through instead of doom and darkness, enfeebling/withering instead of mindrazor, assuming you(or anyone) runs a single lvl 4, the loremaster with book has as good a chance of dispelling that one spell that your lvl 4 would anyway.

id love another 2 rbt, but core is at 603 I think, I cant really drop any knights or PG, I think anyway. and characters are a minimum, where would you cut?!

ramblings always appreciated hope my responses were somewhat interesting!

[sparkytrypod]

right guys, myself and my beastman buddy are going to a doubles tournament on sunday, its a fun thing, nothing serious.

however you have to write a fluff piece about how your armies came to be fighting together, which can be difficult for a beastman and elf combo, so.... we decided to rip off an 80's classic film...

cue wiki searching and substituting in some warhammer words.

****some people might find this offensive***

so mods can remove it if necessary

here we go:

Prince Glorfindel is in the middle of importing four sky utters to Lothern for resale. He needs to deliver the vehicles to impatient buyers who have already made down payments in order to repay the loan he took out to buy the vehicles, but the cutters are held at the port due to failing emissions regulations Prince Glorfindel directs his noble Battle standard bearer Lindir, to lie to the buyers while he stalls his creditor.
When Prince Glorfindel learns that his estranged father has died, he travels to Saphery in order to settle the estate. He learns he is receiving the 1949 Buick Skycutter convertible, over which he and his father fought and his fathers rose bushes, the bulk of the $3 million estate is going to an unnamed trustee. Through political intrigue he learns the money is being directed to a mental institution, which he visits and meets his older brother, Doombull, of whose existence he was previously unaware…

Doombull has autism and adheres to strict routines such as always watching “The Peoples Court“. He has superb recall but he shows little emotional expression except when in distress. Prince Glorfindel spirits Doombull out of the mental institution and into an inn for the night. The Prince decides to attempt to gain custody of his brother in order to get control of the money.

After Doombull refuses to fly to Lothern because he remembers every skycutter crash and is worried about getting hurt, they set out on a cross-country road trip together. During the course of the journey, Prince Glorfindel learns more about Doombull, including that he is a mental calculator with the ability to instantly count hundreds of objects at once, far beyond the normal range for Beastmen. He also learns that, like him, Doombull loves The Beatles. It is revealed that Doombull actually lived with the family when Prince Glorfindel was young and he realizes that the comforting figure from his childhood, whom he falsely remembered as an imaginary friend named "Rain Man", was actually Doombull.
They make slow progress on their trip because Doombull insists on sticking to his routines, which include watching Judge Judy on television every day and getting to bed by 11:00 PM. He also objects to traveling on the world roots after they pass a bad accident.

After the Skycutters are seized by his creditor, Prince Glorfindel finds himself $80,000 in debt and hatches a plan to return to Lothern, which they passed the night before, and win money by counting cards. The Prince makes enough to cover his debts.
Back in Lothern, Prince Glorfindel meets with Dr. Slugtongue, who offers him $250,000 to walk away from Doombull. Prince Glorfindel refuses and says that he wants to have a relationship with his brother. At a meeting with a court-appointed psychiatrist, Doombull is shown to be unable to decide for himself what he wants. Prince Glorfindel stops the questioning and tells Doombull he is happy to have him as his brother.
In the final scene, Prince Glorfindel brings Doombull to the forest where he boards a chariot with Dr. Slugtongue and returns to the herdstone. Prince Glorfindel promises Doombull that he will visit in two weeks….

[Loriel]

Well that fluff was unconventional, but gived me couple laughs! I personally try to find very serious lores with pretty traditional sword & magic themes

I imagine skycutter chopshop with tons of imigrants working day and night from the old world

Good luck fighting with those beasties by your side

[sparkytrypod]

ha thanks! ya we were thinking how could we do it properly fluff wise but I don't think elves would ever ally with the children of chaos/beastmen, well maybe teclis!

[Cealyne]

Hello,
I found the fluff funny. I was thinking of how you could have made it more epic fluffy.
You could always have went with they aren't really beast men. You could have went the "chronicles of narnia " route. Stated that they are an ancient race of half elves half fairy folk. Kinda like centaurs, minotaurs, and sayters. You know, an ancient race hidden away in the glades of Ulthuan or anthel Loren. Just my two cents! Good luck at the tourny!

[sparkytrypod]

Right folks its been a while!

as my jouney continues i flip flop with lists, sooo at the moment myself and my gaming group are using etc rules and restrictions, therefore this is what i will be playing with for the next while!

Prince, star dragon, heavy arm, dragon helm, star lance, OTS, lion cloak, talisman of pres, shield
Archmage, lvl 4, high, scroll, talisman of endurance, khaines ring

Seahelm, bow, armour of caledor

21 archers FC
5 reavers
5 reavers
5 silverhelm
5 silverhelms

27 white lions FC BOTWD
3 bolt throwers

2395

note 2 edits due to my sloppiness, talisman of pres is on the prince and khaines ring is on the mage

so there we have it.

comments always welcome, you can argue your points and i will defend my choices or concede as the case may be!

[Curu Olannon]

In terms of defense I'm a big fan of Shield of the Merwyrm on a sea helm when taken alongside a High Magic user as he'll practically almost always have a 5+/3++ which is better than 2+/5++ against most threats in my experience. Furthermore this is a cheap configuration which allows you to take the Golden Crown on him as well as the Reaver Bow for the same points as AoC.

Otherwise the list looks solid I suppose you could skip a few items here and there to squeeze in that 4th bolter but that's largely up to personal preference.

[sparkytrypod]

As the seahelm is armed with a spear and you dont get a parry with a spear wouldnt you also have to buy him a hand to hand magic item and not the reaver bow?!

Other than that, good call, dont know how i missed it!

On the 4th bolter, ya id like to have it, but lions start to get very small then. But i could leave the seahelm with merwyrm shield and drop a few lions. I dont want to drop khaines ring as i think having soul quench twice is gold in some match ups.

[Andros123]

What are your thoughts on your choice of core?

I think I would make the group of archers bigger (making hand of glory a bigger threat), while dropping one group of reavers. Besides, what are their purpose in this list anyway?

I would also consider dropping some more lions and find the points for the extra bolt thrower. I think you will be surprised of how rare the white lions actually find themselves in combat. They are a very defensive unit, that act as a perfect bunker, because it simply can't be killed at range.

Looking forward to read how you do with it