2400pts HE vs Chaos Legions (End Times)

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mcmulligan
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2400pts HE vs Chaos Legions (End Times)

#1 Post by mcmulligan »

My first End Times battle, and it was against Chaos Legions (predominately Warriors, but with some Daemons as well, no Beastmen).

This was just a friendly match, although my opponent tends to take hard, or "net" lists. Last time we played, I brought a nice fluffy Eltharion the Grim list, with swordmasters, etc, and he brought chariot and chimera spam (that battle didn't go well for me...)

This time I wanted to have a list that was actually trying to utilize some competitive options, to test some of the theory-hammer that we've had around the new rules.

My List:

Lords:

Alarielle the Radiant, General, Lore of Light (all 4 spells)

Heroes:

Lothern Sea Helm, BSB, Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength
Mage, lvl 1, Lore of Light, Dispel Scroll
Mage, lvl 1, Lore of Light, Forbidden Rod

Core:

15 Archers, full command
10 Silver Helms, full command
6 Silver Helms, full command (really only there to reach minimum core points)

Special:

30 White Lions, full command, Banner of The World Dragon
5 Dragon Princes

Rare:

15 Sisters of Avelorn
3 x Bolt Thrower

My list was definitely defensive, going for a moderately (S6) powered up Banishment that I could cast twice in one round. Lots of shooting, although I knew the archers weren't going to do much against the expected DPs and chariots, they could maybe take down a charmed shield. The Sea Helm was there to protect the characters in the WL unit, but reforming them far away from combat against what I expected to be single models, if anything at all.

The fast elements in my cavalry were there to threaten any cannons (skull or hell) that he might field. Normally I would have reavers. I decided to leave them out this time since they weren't going to be able to threaten anything, couldn't hunt war machines, and as redirectors were marginally better than the helms themselves.

His List (approximately)

Daemon Prince, lvl 4 lore of Nurgle, General, not sure of his full kit but at least a 1+ armour save
Daemon Prince, lvl 4 lore of Death, this one had the charmed shield

These were both Warriors DPs, not Daemon DPs

BSB, on a daemonic disc, the usual 1+, 3++ reroll 1s guy

5 Chariots, Mark of Khorne
2 Skull Cannons
Soul Grinder, flame thrower and mark of nurgle

And that was his list. 11 models. Normally he would take mark of Nurgle on the Chariots, in this game it didn't actually matter. We did laugh at the beginning noting that he would automatically lose Blood and Glory, and have a hard time winning Watch Tower as well. Luckily we rolled a '5' for the scenario which is Meeting Engagement.

I won the roll off so chose my side and deployed my entire army first. None of my units stayed in reserve. On his deployment, one skull cannon and one chariot stayed in reserve.

Spells: Can't remember his Nurgle ones (they never came into effect), and his Death rolled Purple Sun, Doom and Darkness, Soul Blight, and the Signature

Alarielle: Banishment, Birona's Timewarp, Pha's Protection, Searing Doom
Lvl 1: Net of Amyntok (useless against an army where everything is at least S5)
Lvl 1: Speed of Light (WS and I 10)

Deployment

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His deployment is relatively straight forward, mine is going to appear a bit off. I deployed the mages and WLs so far forward because I had a 5/6 chance of having first turn, and I had a building right in front of me that would all but guarantee the safety of my bunker. I deployed the rest of my shooting back, expecting him to basically deploy right on the line with such an aggressive list. My cavalry all went on the flank in the hope of circling and attacking any skull cannons that he attempted to protect, or to harass the flank of any chariots going for the juicy shooting elements of my army.

To my surprise, he actually deployed fairly defensively with almost everything.

Some notes on the terrain (although only one piece had any effect on anything).

The river turned out to be a river of blood, no big deal for anybody, although it would prevent me from marching through it. His troops didn't care, since chariots can't march anyway, and the rest of his stuff was flying over it. The building that I deployed near was an Acropolis of Heroes, giving units inside +1 to hit in close combat (we completely forgot about that, but it didn't matter in the end). The structure at the top was an alter of Khaine, giving him frenzy and hatred within 6 inches (this mattered). The swamp was a mist wreathed swamp, take an I test and lose d6 models if you fail. Hill on the East was an Anvil of Vaul (didn't matter, only unit ever on there was sisters, who have magical flaming attacks anyway). Forest was a venom thicket (didn't matter), hill on the west was mundane, and the structure in the Southwest was a sigmarite shrine (didn't matter).

True to probability, I got first turn.

HE Turn 1:

Image

WLs and all the characters move into the building. He now only has 4 units that can even attack my WLs, the 3 characters and the Soul Grinder. The chariots are useless as far as threatening me, and the magical flaming cannonballs from the Skull Cannons aren't likely to do squat either. Also, I've now got a perfect platform for Banishment frenzy. In short, he's in big trouble.

My DPs can actually march out of all the charge arcs on the west and threaten his cannon. The helms aren't so lucky and do a shuffle. Sisters move into range on the Death DP, archers into range on the General DP.

Magic, winds are 9-5 in my favour (I channel once). I start with a 2 dice regular searing doom on his general. 2d6 S4 (thanks to the bonus d6 against Daemons) isn't a big threat, but I hoped to take down any charmed shield he might have and maybe eek out a few of his dispel dice. He throws 2 at it and dispels it. I then throw 4 dice at banishment at his general. He fails to dispel it with his remaining 3 dice. I manage to get 2 wounds through. I then use Alarielle's staff, and hit him with Banishment again, causing 3 wounds (only needing 2 to finish him off). Turn 1, and his general is already dead.

Shooting, my sisters manage to take down the charmed shield on the other DP, and take 1 wound off him. Archers aren't in range of anything anymore, and only 1 bolt thrower hits the target, but the ward save negates the wound.

Chaos Turn 1

Image

He fails his frenzy on the Soul Grinder, and has to charge my lions. I promptly forget my reaver bow and don't stand and shoot.

Elsewhere, he brings on his other cannon and chariot, flies his BSB up to block my small helms, and shuffles chariots forward for shorter charges next turn. He can get around that structure, and I pretty much can't. DP flies up to threaten the sisters.

Magic, the total was 7 which would have affected his General on the Reign of Chaos table, if he was still alive, he throws 3 dice at doom and darkness on the sisters, fails to reach the casting value, and the phase is done. Really, I would have let that spell through likely anyway, since nothing in death was really bothering me, and would have prioritized dispelling the -1S&T spell every turn.

Shooting, both his cannons shoot at my dragon princes. 2++ vs flaming saves me from any damage (last turn he bothers shooting at those guys).

Combat, his soul grinder doesn't do a single wound to me thanks to my 2++ vs all of his attacks, and I do nothing to him, thanks to his T7 vs my S6.

HE Turn 2

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I attempt to charge the skull cannon with the DPs, needing only a 7, and roll 6. Stumble forward.

Elsewhere I successfully swift reform my small helms to maneuver away from the flank, but fail to swiftly reform the big helm unit, and now they're left sitting sideways.

I angle the sisters to shoot at the DP and move my archers to get out of the bolt thrower's way.

Magic, 8-4 in my favour. I power Banishment through on his DP, he fails to dispel on 4 dice vs my 6 dice, and 3 wounds later, poof goes the other DP.

With my remaining dice I cast Pha's on my WLs.

Shooting, I drink my potion of strength with my BSB and put 2 wounds on the skull cannon. Sisters can't see anything anymore since the DP is dead, and my bolt throwers don't do squat.

No combat (the soul grinder was driven off last turn).

Chaos Turn 2

Image

Soul Grinder charges the tower again. Chariot charges the exposed flank of my DPs, its a decently long charge, but no sense in risking it, and I flee. All the chariots in the Southwest attempt to charge, all fail (all needing 10+ to make it). BSB charges the rear of my small helms, and they flee, bouncing all the way into the swamp. I make light of the fact that I can't possibly fail the Initiative test, and promptly roll a 6. Luckily my d6 models lost was only 1 helm.

Stand and shoot reaction (thanks to the powered up reaver bow) takes 2 wounds off the soulgrinder.

Magic, rolls 11. One of my mages would become possessed if they fail a leadership test. Luckily, my mages are all sitting at ld10 with a reroll, and nothing happens.

Shooting, both his cannons fire into the flank of my big helms. Together they kill 3, and I pass my panic test.

Combat, my WLs do 3 more wounds to the soul grinder, he does nothing at all, and with Unstable, he loses his last wound.

HE Turn 3

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Helms charge the rear of his BSB, other helms fail to rally and charge headlong through the swamp. Luckily they go right through it, so no more initiative tests, and I fortunately pass all my dangerous terrain tests as well. Dragon Princes rally.

Magic, I banish his skull cannon off the board, get Speed of Light and Pha's Protection onto the large helms.

Shooting, my BSB manages 1 more wound on the skull cannon, leaving it with 1 remaining. No other shooting accomplishes anything.

Combat, I manage 1 wound onto the BSB, and he does nothing in return (me hitting on 3s with a reroll, and him only hitting on 5s decided this one). He fails his LD 5 with a reroll break test and instantly dies. I'm an idiot here and don't overrun and just reform to face his chariots. They need long charges again, but I shouldn't have even risked it.

Chaos Turn 3

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Two chariots make the charge into my helms, one fails.

Magic, rolls an 8. He rolls a dice for all my unengaged units, on a 6 bad stuff happens. Luckily, he doesn't roll any 6s.

Shooting, his skull cannon splinters one of my bolt throwers.

Combat, his chariots smash my helms and overrun, although not off the board.

HE Turn 4

Image

My small helms rally, my dragon princes figure shooting should take that last wound off the cannon and go hunting chariots.

Magic, 8 vs 4, and I decide, hey, why not use the forbidden rod now, not going to be a better time anyway. Roll 1 extra power dice. And 3 wounds. Luckily the 2++ saves the wounds, but what a let down.

I get a banishment off on one of the chariots, but only do a single wound. nothing else matters.

Shooting, I manage to put 3 wounds on the foremost chariot with the sisters, and my archers and bolt thrower do nothing (my one bolt thrower had panicked from the death of their comrade last turn, so couldn't shoot this turn).

Combat, there was none.

Chaos Turn 4:

Image

No charges. Moves his chariots up.

Magic, rolls an 11 again, I pass my leadership test again.

Shooting, cannon takes out a second bolt thrower, and my third bolt thrower again panics. As do my chickenshit 6 man helm unit, who run away, again.

HE Turn 5:

Image

Seeing as this is a friendly game, and I've firmly had it in the bag since turn 2, I move up units to threaten what he has left. I don't need to, I could run everything away. But hey, that's boring.

Magic, I fail to cast my 4 dice boosted Shem's at the one of the chariots. And that'll pretty much do it for the magic phase, as he dispels my lvl 1's pitiful attempts at magic.

Shooting, my sisters finish off the one chariot that they had already wounded. My archers do nothing. My panicked bolt thrower does nothing. And my BSB fails to take the last wound off the skull cannon. Argggghhhhh.

Chaos Turn 5:

Image

Because his one chariot was in my flank, and his other chariot was blocking my flank of the archers, he decided to not charge this turn, and wait for next.

Magic, was another 11. I pass my test again.

Shooting, he misses the bolt thrower.

HE Turn 6:

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I charge the dragon princes into the flank of his chariot, and back the archers up. Helms rally.

Magic, winds blow really low, and I only get one spell through. His ward on the skull cannon stops any damage.

Shooting, sisters put one wound on a chariot, BSB fails to wound the skull cannon AGAIN. Bolt thrower picks his ass for the final round of the game. Archers again do zilch.

Combat, princes score two wounds on the chariot, it does nothing in return, it flees and I fail to catch it.

Chaos Turn 6:

Image

Gets two chariots into my archers, fails a third charge into the sisters who do a meaningless 2 wounds on stand and shoot. Rallies his fleeing chariot.

Magic, rolls a 7, doesn't matter.

Shooting, his cannon does 1 wound to the bolt thrower.

Combat, he demolishes my archers, and that's the end of the game.

In the end, I had gotten around 1800 points off of him and he had taken down just around 600 points of mine (large helms, archers, and 2 bolt throwers), easily a massacre in my favour.

Some thoughts on the battle, and our lists.

Starting with his list, obviously a hard, combat oriented army supported by two of the most ridiculous cannons in the game and very hard characters and magic potential. However, it has obvious weaknesses in any scenario other than a battle line on a mostly empty table. It automatically loses blood and glory. It would have a nightmare in watchtower. Dawn attack could leave those cannons completely isolated. And other, non-book, scenarios could be equally challenging. As a "net list" it certainly can be potent... but...

The improved Reign of Chaos table didn't end up hurting me, but it could have. Skull cannons are obviously superior to hell cannons. And two DPs are a rough match for a lot of armies.

For my list, S6 banishment is JUST a tad too weak. S7 is pretty much a must. Especially against armies where you won't be getting the extra d6. So another mage will need to fit into the list. Reaver bow BSB was decent, granted he's a wet noodle in combat, but you would obviously plan to avoid that. I also didn't get to use his special ability, but it would have been useful given the right circumstance.

Alarielle with banishment is very powerful. Being able to cast it twice in one round is HUGE. You'll need to watch for dispel scroll, obviously, but it can guarantee you a banishment in the turn you need it. In my case, I got lucky and got 2 of them off.

Lions, didn't really do anything. Cavalry was as mediocre as I expected it to be.

I was surprised at how ineffective the bolt throwers were, but that's the way the dice roll. Sadly, they aren't cannons. Sisters did well. Archers didn't do squat, but unless he was going to bring hounds, there wasn't much for them to do in any case.

As for the battle, I knew the game was over as soon as I saw the board (which just FYI he placed the terrain) and that one building being right where I needed it to be. Dice could have gone either way, but I had all the tools needed to beat his army, and that building basically guaranteed it.

If the building wasn't there, I would have deployed my lions further back (obviously) and all things being equal, probably would have had the exact same result. Maybe even more in my favour if I was pressured to actually use the WLs for anything more than drinking buddies for my characters.

I think light council banishment is our strongest weapon in the new meta. Arguments can be made for either Teclis manning it, a lvl 4 with a book, or Alarielle. Personally, I prefer Alarielle due to point efficiency and the rest that she brings to the table. Dragons (which I considered for this game) would have been easy cannon fodder, and or overmatched against the new big baddies.

Nagash wouldn't have faired any better than the DPs did against even a S6 banishment. Although I would get less wounds through on him due to T7, he would save less due to no armour save (which the DP still had a 4+ and a 5+, and then their ward). I still think S7 would be better.

If I were to face KF with this list? Well.... He's not going to do anything to the WLs with their 2++ vs his attacks, and a 5++ vs his thunderstomp. Alarielle is in the second rank along with the bsb, so he can't target them even if he wanted to, and challenges I would happily decline. Either helm unit could hold him for at least a turn, with a champion and 5 more models for steadfast. Archers and sisters the same. The lore of light would also help my units if he were to stick to those lions (WS 10 I10, extra attacks, -1 to hit, are all great to limit his damage and increase mine back on him)

I don't think I would have any chance of killing him, but I don't think he'd have any chance of getting his 810 points back. And if he chooses not to engage the white lions with Franz (probably the right choice), I'm free to banish his supporting units. Interesting thoughts.
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John Rainbow
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Re: 2400pts HE vs Chaos Legions (End Times)

#2 Post by John Rainbow »

A good win, well done.

Your opponents list has the potential to be pretty filthy but it just goes to show that an all-round list is much better than something like this most of the time.

I have a couple of thoughts on some of your comments:

1. You need to work on your RBT placement. Putting them within panic range of each other is a poor choice as you found out and it maybe one of the reasons these guys did not impress you. You also need to think about lines of sight and where they should go. Deploying them close together (not within 6") isn't necessarily bad but it does make it easier for something like comet or a single flyer to kill all of them pretty easily.

2. Improving your list: I think against some opponents you will need some more redirectors, especially if you intend to beef up your coven. Have you thought about Reavers instead of archers? As for powering up the coven a Loremaster might not be a bad choice as he gives you a lot of utility and has some combat punch too.
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RE.Lee
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Re: 2400pts HE vs Chaos Legions (End Times)

#3 Post by RE.Lee »

Congrats on the well earned victory! Seeing the Nurgle DPs drop like that was heartwarming ;)
cheers, Lee

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mcmulligan
Posts: 132
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:21 pm

Re: 2400pts HE vs Chaos Legions (End Times)

#4 Post by mcmulligan »

John Rainbow wrote:A good win, well done.

Your opponents list has the potential to be pretty filthy but it just goes to show that an all-round list is much better than something like this most of the time.

I have a couple of thoughts on some of your comments:

1. You need to work on your RBT placement. Putting them within panic range of each other is a poor choice as you found out and it maybe one of the reasons these guys did not impress you. You also need to think about lines of sight and where they should go. Deploying them close together (not within 6") isn't necessarily bad but it does make it easier for something like comet or a single flyer to kill all of them pretty easily.

2. Improving your list: I think against some opponents you will need some more redirectors, especially if you intend to beef up your coven. Have you thought about Reavers instead of archers? As for powering up the coven a Loremaster might not be a bad choice as he gives you a lot of utility and has some combat punch too.

For your first point, totally agree. Unfortunately there was A LOT of terrain on the table, almost all of it across the no-man's land between the deployment zones, and it was severely restricting line of sight. The most clearly superior location for their placement would have been the hill, but it was also potentially within the charge range of one of those flying DPs on the first turn. I think probably just spacing them out a bit better would have been a superior choice. Normally I get far more mileage out of them, so I'm not letting this battle overly jade me.

To your second point, again, can't help but agree. The archers are pretty redundant with the 3 bolt throwers, the sisters, and the reaver bow BSB. Reavers would be just as capable of hitting soft chaff or pinging off a charmed shield, while still being able to do redirecting and chaff duties.

For the third supporting light mage/caster, I strongly considered the loremaster. What ultimately decided me against it that I would be prioritizing the light spells over his pretty much every turn, negating his use as a mage, and I couldn't think of much a combat kit to give him to make him worth much in that role either. I think I would probably go with another lvl 1, maybe bring the channeling staff with him to increase the odds of getting additional dice, which the light coven always sorely needs. To squeeze those points in (about another 100), I'd probably squeek a couple out of core since I was marginally over there, and then maybe drop a body or two from the lions and the sisters.
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John Rainbow
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Re: 2400pts HE vs Chaos Legions (End Times)

#5 Post by John Rainbow »

mcmulligan wrote:For the third supporting light mage/caster, I strongly considered the loremaster. What ultimately decided me against it that I would be prioritizing the light spells over his pretty much every turn, negating his use as a mage, and I couldn't think of much a combat kit to give him to make him worth much in that role either. I think I would probably go with another lvl 1, maybe bring the channeling staff with him to increase the odds of getting additional dice, which the light coven always sorely needs. To squeeze those points in (about another 100), I'd probably squeek a couple out of core since I was marginally over there, and then maybe drop a body or two from the lions and the sisters.
Yeah I can see this. You are already pretty heavily invested in magic and trying to do even more with the PD you have might not be an optimal choice. Having seen how well you have done with Str.6 Banishment, I'm not sure pulling points away from other units is necessary. Or, if you do take that route, will necessitate you taking more redirectors as your combat units lose a few bodies and your reduce their combat potential.
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