600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League: AnointedStar 1,200pts

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600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League: AnointedStar 1,200pts

#1 Post by Ferny »

List Construction
o The points level will increase every 3 games by 600pts; (1st) 600pts*, (2nd) 1200pts, (3rd) 1800pts, (4th) 2400pts; army lists to be constructed with the usual restrictions 25%min core etc
o The 600 point games have the following exception - there is no character allowance from 600pts but rather a 'free' 250 points to spend on a single character, who will be your general (i.e. 150pts min core, max total of 850pts including single character)
o This character will remain your general throughout the entire campaign. Therefore you may end up in later games with your general *not* being the character with the highest Ld
o If he is a hero choice he can be upgraded to the equivalent lord level choice later on (but presumably cannot then be degraded again) - a spellcaster can therefore upgrade his caster level (but presumably cannot then be degraded again). He is stuck with his same starter lore.
o He can buy more kit (and, I presume, upgrades - e.g. heavy->dragon armour, horse->dragon)...but he cannot *lose* any. So if you start the campaign with a cavalry prince and give him the usual kit, by 2,400 you cannot 'degrade' his kit to fit him on a dragon...and if you start the campaign with a Lv2 mage plus scroll, you cannot 'upgrade' him to the book later etc.
o Special characters are allowed

Victory Conditions
o Each game will use the standard pitch battle format, lasting 6 turns.
o The battles will be drawn at random, with the exception that you can play each player a maximum of 1 time in each point bracket, meaning there will be 12 games in total.
o The victory for the games will be on a victory point basis, which means you both players need to let me know the total amount of victory points they scored from their opponent with the standard additions;
o 100pts = Slain General
o 100pts = Slain BSB
o 25pts = Each banner claims
o 25pts = Underdog Challenge
o 100pts = Breaking the enemies fortitude (this can apply to both armies)


The Meta
Dwarfs (2)
WoC (2)
Deamons (mostly nurgle) (1)
Bretts (1)
Skaven (1)
Wood Elves (1)
Ogres (1)
High Elves (1 - me!)

So quite a spread! Of these, I know both WoC players and the Daemon player are experienced fantasy players and the other guys I think are mostly 40K players recently converted or I don't know them well yet. That said - I'm certainly not a top player so I will expect every game to be a (welcomed) challenge.
Last edited by Ferny on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#2 Post by Ferny »

There's a few things which are really new to me about this set up.

Firstly, I exclusively play at 2,400 - so playing 9/12 games at lower points (including some *very* low point games) will be a completely new experience for me. Critically, apart from not having experience with my high elf list(s) at this level, I have little to no idea what others might bring at this level...
Secondly, if you take a wizard as your general in game one then you're stuck with his lore throughout...this is perfectly normal for tourney play, but most tournies don't switch points levels, so for example fire might be really good at low points whereas death would be better at high, but you can't make that trade...and remember, most games are played at low points. (I made up fire and death - they might be, but that's not the point I'm making).
Thirdly - three games (a quarter of the league) give you access to free points for your general...but you are then stuck with this general in later games, where you have to pay for him...this has some huge implications.

1. If you want Ld10 without the banner in later games then you will be obliged to pay for a prince even in 1,200pt battles
2. Games 1-3 only have a single character - you therefore choose magic or combat (e.g. prince above), but you can't have both barring (an underkitted) loremaster.
3. The first three games have no BSB, and if you want to include one in the next three games (1,200) if you took an expensive lord to take advantage of the free points in games 1-3 then you're using *a lot* of your army points on characters.
4. Similarly - if you took a combat character as your general then you're almost forced to decide between BSB or magic for games 4-6
5. You can choose between a kitted out mage (to upgrade) or a fairly naked Archmage - of the two I think a Lv4 wins hands down, although he might be damned hard to protect at low points

So, basically, I think list design must be built around who you choose as your general.
Last edited by Ferny on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#3 Post by Ferny »

Lists:
Option 1 - The Prince!

This gives my Ld10 throughout the campaign. It also makes good use of the 'free' 250 character points for games 1-3. There are three options for him I think...foot, cavalry or dragon (with dragon to be unlocked in later games :wink: ). But bear in mind that his items *cannot* be removed later in the campaign, only added to. Also means no BSB (no one will) and no magic in games 1-3.

1. The Foot Prince
The idea here would be to go down the PG bus route, although note that in the first 3 games there will be no access to magic so their ward will never exceed 4++. I think this should be quite strong in the meta - ward vs dwarf war machines and wood elf shooting, prince punch vs ogres, PG re-rolls and ward vs skaven and nurgle where you wanna break/crumble them quick, and so long as I don't 'rubber armour' vs brett lances solid there too.
Kit: not sure - would like 4++ ward from either shield or talisman, but would also like +3S...and I need to leave a ward available for the BSB when he arrives at 1,200.

2. Cavalry Prince
Standard issue (subject to points). Plan would be to go in a cavalry hammer and take advantage of low point games to just roll the opponent over.
+3S, enchanted shield, dawnstone, horse (no barding, no heavy armour for first three games, so just 3+ re-rollable!)

3. Baby Dragon Prince
Star Lance, TOTS, dragonhelm, golden crown, barded steed, shield (no heavy armour as that would put him over come the dragon, so 2+ save, with S7 no AS on the charge and a couple of conditional 2++ wards). Star lance vs +3S sword alone makes me wary of this build, but no AS re-rolls makes me sad too (despite the conditional wards). As such, I'm not keen on this one.


Option 2 - The Mage
Well, this all assumes I take magic in games 1-3...if I take a prince/anointed then this is all moot, although it is worth highlighting all that a mage brings because that is what I am giving up to go down a different route.

First off - lores?! If I'm going down the dragon route then I want high (but note my general will always be restricted to a Lv2 mage, though he can take a scroll from the start then). If I go down the PG bus route then I want high. If I go down the cavalry bus route then I think I have options, but high remains solid. Conclusion: probably High Magic

Next - do we go for a Lv2 with kit, a partially kitted Lv 3 or a nearly naked Lv4?

The obvious Lv2 kit is scroll+khaine...but this doesn't scale well. For one thing it forces your Lv4 to have the scroll rather than Hoeth (not inherently bad, but it does force you), and it removes your options for combining a ward save/fencers blades with a utility item (eg Crown of Command or MR). On the plus side, if you wanted to stick at Lv2 for the 1,200pt games it does save you a wad of points to spend elsewhere.

Lv3 could have BoH. Depending on lore this may or may not be more valuable than being a Lv4. Alternatively he could have some defensive kit (ward!). Lv4 can only get 20pts of items. As MR/ward cannot be upgraded I think only Ironcurse Icon is sensible.

What are the list implications?
With only one character, where would I hide my mage? I could sit back and shoot (archer bunker core, 2xRBT rare and special options), but this feels weak against this meta. So that means mounted and mobile or on the edge of a big unit. I'm a bit lairy on both. I'm also wary of putting any sort of mage into a PG 'bus' in the opening games - he just seems to vulnerable. The only way to do it would be Lv3 no book/scroll and take a ward. Note though that if I were to upgrade him to a cavalry mage in later games he would be stuck with the same ward save, so it would be important that this doesn't deprive the then prince and BSB of their go to item (it probably wouldn't, but it needs to be considered). This approach would rule out the dragon option for high points games.

So at this point it is looking like either foot prince vs foot Lv3 with the PG or cavalry prince vs undecided mage format. If I were to go the foot route I think the prince one is better - if I can wither three games without a mage this unit should be pretty hard to deal with at these points levels and has an answer to everything (except evasion lists - wood elves, looking at you - or fast/mounted lists perhaps which could choose to play avoidance).

Option 3 - The Annointed!
I've never used the annointed because I think, while technically not over-costed for all he does, the sum of what he does isn't justified by the points cost. But in the 600pt games I could get either S6 or 3+ re-rollable, but because I'd eventually want him to be S7 and 3+ re-rollable S6 is out. This therefore makes him less hitty than a (foot) prince in the first few games, but brings MR2 and ItP to the table (which mitigates not having a mage or a BSB), making him the perfect points denial general. I'd stick him in the pheonix guard (15+FC+Razor is max points). I'm not sure whether to go 2x eagle rare + helms FC core or 2x spear reavers core + 2xRBT/1xRBT+5 sisters rare.

Come 1,200pts we give him his +3S sword, buy 300pts worth of BSB (will ultimately be looking at Myrwyrm and stubborn, but here just Mywrm) and High Magic (L2+scroll+ring). 300pts of core (6 helms+ch+banner) and 5x reavers an bulk up the PG to 15 (but lose all the rare to buy the heroes). The problem is, with only 3 units and no shooting bar magic I really, really lack board control. I don't think I'll give up many points outside of core, but I might not make it to combat to claim points either. But I can't see how we'd remedy that. I would be worried though that against gunlines I couldn't put the pressure on (even if I have 3++ on the unit, I've not got many ablative wounds there). And against evasion lists, though I think they're relatively strong at low points.

By 1,800 we're flying - bigger PG unit, more core helms/reavers and either frosty or RBTs in rare. And best of all, by 2,400 I can mount the general on a phoenix and he's kitted out perfectly right from the start. It does of course rule out dragon prince, but he is replaced with a sensible equivalent so that's cool. This does feel appealing as an option, and the unique features of this campaign might be a good opportunity to showcase this under-used character.

Option 4 - The Loremaster!
Jack of all trades. Gives access to an over-whelming array of magic in games 1-3 and scales well throughout the campaign. He isn't vulnerable in combat like the mage/AM would be, so positioning him in an army becomes less problematic. I like giving him Merwyrm, which even with my 250pts cap game 1 isn't a problem, and he can later take BoH and the ring to have a huge magic phase with just one caster. A solid option. Rules out DragonPrince.

I'm not too sure what list to build around him though, but probably just cos I haven't given it much thought yet. But of the magic options, I think this is the most viable - and thereby (kinda) ruling out the mage as my general (he can be added in later either as a caddy or in 2,400 as a death AM).

Summary:
This campaign doesn't lend itself to a dragon prince. It isn't impossible but it isn't optimal.

A cavalry prince is a solid and unique option. At 1,200 it makes best use of core (through helm block) and therefore frees up points for board control in rare. This is useful because probably with full lord and full hero (BSB+mage) we need the rare.

A foot prince competes against a foot mage (favourably in my view - the crux is whether we can cope without magic for 3 games before getting a mage, vs having magic but a vulnerable general). He also competes against the annointed, who really plugs the gaps for no mage. I'm leaning to annointed.

Or there's the loremaster, who in a way might be the obvious choice. His spell range (including key magic missiles and metal) is very impressive at low levels (especially as he's less likely to be facing Lv4s and might not be facing any magic, giving him complete superiority. But I've played him a lot and either cav prince or annointed PG bus would both be new styles for me to try out, with the annointed ending in play with a monster general.
Last edited by Ferny on Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#4 Post by Curu Olannon »

Interesting. I assume you want to run the Dragonlord here? Assuming you want the setup I`ve been running (TOTS, Star Lance, Golden Crown, Dragonhelm) it`s actually not too bad for the lower point games if you can mount him on a horse. I suppose a better question is how the list overall scales, but I think this should not be that big of a problem actually if you go with the bus approach anyway.

At 600 you basically take your Helms and general alongside a mage. No room for a BSB.

At 1200 you can fit the Frostheart and the BSB I believe.

At 1800 the toys really come into play. At this point you have Prince, BSB and 2 mages in the bus. It basically plays like a cavstar with a somewhat weak-ish setup (but considering it`s escalation this is not a huge trade-off in my opinion and you still hurt like a truck on the charge) but the support should be decent :)

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter!
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#5 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:Interesting. I assume you want to run the Dragonlord here? Assuming you want the setup I`ve been running (TOTS, Star Lance, Golden Crown, Dragonhelm) it`s actually not too bad for the lower point games if you can mount him on a horse. I suppose a better question is how the list overall scales, but I think this should not be that big of a problem actually if you go with the bus approach anyway.
Initially yes, I was gearing up to take a Dragonlord at the end. However, the equipment cap is painful. Because I can't downgrade armour, my cavalry prince would be running without maxed out armour and without re-rolls and without the grinding sword for 9/12 games. He's not a *bad* character, but he's so far from *optimal* just for the sake of including the Dragonlord in the final build. Though I admit his progression would be epic.
At 600 you basically take your Helms and general alongside a mage. No room for a BSB.
No can do unfortunately. At 600 there's no character points available, expect for 250 max free points to be spent on the general. As such I can take a Prince or a(n arch)mage, but not both.
At 1200 you can fit the Frostheart and the BSB I believe.
If I started with a prince as my general (so no magic games 1-3), by 1200 could have prince (25%), frostheart (25%), mage and BSB (25%), and core helms/reavers (25%) - percentages are rough guides, frosty and prince are slightly under 300, mage and BSB will both need to be quite naked to make 300, and some points are free to expand core or maybe take a small special/rare option. However, With so many points sunk into lords, I'm not sure how to equip the two heroes at this level.

If however I went with magic for games 1-3 I could buy in my prince at this stage (or, indeed, later). If I buy him now then I would be obliged for my general games 1-3 to be a lowly (kitted) Lv 2 and not a (nakedish) Lv4, as there aren't points for two Lords here. At any rate, he wouldn't be my general. It does however mean that where I to end as a Dragonlord he could be kitted as I choose (but he still wouldn't be a Ld10 18" general sadly). On balance, I think the trade-off is better for taking magic early than prince, but I'll look at various options in my lists in the placeholder above.[/quote]
At 1800 the toys really come into play. At this point you have Prince, BSB and 2 mages in the bus. It basically plays like a cavstar with a somewhat weak-ish setup (but considering it`s escalation this is not a huge trade-off in my opinion and you still hurt like a truck on the charge) but the support should be decent :)
When I played a couple of 1,000 doubles games I played PG+highL2 as my base, but I read on here someone playing a DP bus which looked basically unstoppable on the charge. So I like the idea of taking a huge hammer to low point games. It's just a question of how to construct that hammer so that it balances over the course of escalating points, bearing in mind that the general is fixed throughout. It's a really simple thing for the league administrator to set, but it puts such an interesting dynamic onto list building!
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

I find this low-point stuff interesting (Beerhammer sounded fantastic Curu!). Especially because I have a tournament in November with two games at 1000pts and two at 2400. Everything in the first list has to be in the big list too. I'll be taking my combat list but figured I'd cut it down to archers/fast cav at 1000. Like Ferny I figured take the 245pt lvl4, although I have to keep the Lore, Life, not ideal here.

It'll be a blow not having your Ld10 general Ferny but it's worth it I think.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#7 Post by Curu Olannon »

Beerhammer was fantastic ;) What I did learn is that at these point levels magic is just terrifying. The question is two-fold then: Do you want to build your army around this? What kind of approach do you see yourself taking? At 600 points you can fit a Loremaster given your rules. At 1200 you can even give this bad brother the Book. This is a list you can evolve very well. An alternative is to go with a Death Archmage and later mount him, going in the direction of the deathtrain.

I guess the the most important question is what do you want out of this? Do you want a balanced army that can compete in all phases of the escalation or are there particular point values you care more about than others? There are many ways to approach this, but this premise dictates a lot: As we`ve already clarified the Dragon approach forces you to give up utility at lower point levels.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#8 Post by Sackree »

have you considered a Loremaster for your special character?
At those low points games his magic superiority is just devastating, there is a spell for every occasion. Couple him with gem of sunfire for 250 points and he has a lot of firepower up his sleeve.
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=45855]Charge of the Loremaster - Army Blog[/url]
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#9 Post by Ferny »

Hi guys,

Glad this league is of interest. I've now posted my initial list thoughts here:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic. ... 13#p888139

In short, I think a loremaster is indeed the obvious choice (and actually, so flexible I haven't really given much thought to how I would field him). However, I think the annointed actually makes a good case for himself in this set up and I'm leaning on going down that route just to try him out (and also for the mounted option late game).

I'd like a list which works at *all* levels of the campaign. I've just confirmed - we write one list for 600, a new one for 1,200, again for 1,800 and a final one at 2,400 - with only the general staying the same/getting additional (but not upgraded) kit.

Thoughts and comments please :).

PS - SpellArcher - what tourney is that? It sounds fun! Slightly different set-up to this one but similar concept :).
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#10 Post by Curu Olannon »

With yesterday`s experience fresh in mind, I think the most sensible choice here is to go straight for a Death Archmage. I can pretty much guarantee you that no enemy characters will have protection. Furthermore, Doom and Darkness is insane since there are no BSBs around and lastly, Purple Sun wins games. Doubly so when "armies" consist of 2-3 units. Lastly, the Death Archmage is always viable AND you can scale the list to go in different directions depending on what you want as the league progresses. At 2400, the culminating value, you have multiple options with an L4 Deathmage as your general: Deathtrain, infantry heavy (I have been contemplating L4 Death + L4 High recently in PG + WL for example) or even flying (20" move prior to Purple Sun is quite strong and it makes Fate of Bjuna very strong).

Another potential choice is of course the Anointed, but I believe he requires a lot of practice to work well regardless of point levels. A huge benefit early on is of course the ITP, meaning you won`t feel the lack of a BSB so badly. MR2 also protects against others going down the Death route (an obvious choice, in my opinion) and I believe PG are the obvious choice here @600 points (they can grind almost anything at these point values), they will basically be immune to magic as well.

The Prince is in my opinion only something to consider if you want to go down the cav-route. At 600 this can be surprisingly effective as his 250 kit allows you to almots maximise his loadout and furthermore the Helmbus accompanying him can be big enough to single-handedly win games. A huge bonus here is that the cavprince is perhaps even more flexible than the Death Archmage later on, allowing you to play a number of different playstyles.

Lastly there`s the Loremaster. The Loremaster will utterly dominate at 600 points with his vast array of spells. I`m not sure he`s better than the Death Archmage due to DnD/no BSB, but he is more flexible (e.g. vs Undead and DoC). He also scales well, but contrary to said Archmage and cavprince he locks your list down to being infantry-centric, at least partially.

I think the best place to start would be to identify what kind of list styles you imagine yourself playing at the various point levels and go from there. At very small point values (600), High Elves are at an inherent disadvantage due to our inability to take multiple choices and thus reap the benefits of our synergy. This can be compensated by a deathstar-ish approach (you could fit 450 points worth of PG for example...). At 1200 things get better for us, but you`d be surprised to find out what for example Skaven or Empire can bring at this point level. 1800 is approaching a sensible value, you could for example make a decent bus here or have infantry with shooting back and of course 2400 you know quite well ;)
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#11 Post by SpellArcher »

You could fit a scroll on a lvl4 at "600" Ferny but it stops the monster lord option of course.

The tournament is:

http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 3&t=124627

Loremaster might be better at low points but I like the Anointed for the long haul.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#12 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:I think the best place to start would be to identify what kind of list styles you imagine yourself playing at the various point levels and go from there. At very small point values (600), High Elves are at an inherent disadvantage due to our inability to take multiple choices and thus reap the benefits of our synergy. This can be compensated by a deathstar-ish approach (you could fit 450 points worth of PG for example...). At 1200 things get better for us, but you`d be surprised to find out what for example Skaven or Empire can bring at this point level. 1800 is approaching a sensible value, you could for example make a decent bus here or have infantry with shooting back and of course 2400 you know quite well ;)
Death AM wasn't something I'd really considered (hadn't given lore choice much thought). It sounds solid, though protecting him in games 1-3 seems dicey. As for the rest - yeah, pretty much I've got to just decide on the approach to take and go with it...So I'm gonna go anointed and see where it takes me...
Last edited by Ferny on Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - rules and lists

#13 Post by Ferny »

Here are my first drafts for '600'pts, taking the annointed for a spin. I've maxed out PG in special (50%=300pts cap) and I need to take a minimum of 150pts core...however, given that no characters are allowed and special is all invested in PG, the alternative is max 150pts of rare.

Option 1:
Guardians of Solaris Shrine
General (free – 250pts cap – cannot change items, can only add as campaign progresses):
Moltén, Anointed of Asuryan – Heavy Armour, Halberd, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone (240)

Special (300):
Moltén’s Guard, 15x Phoenix Guard, FC + Razor Standard (300)

Core (238):
Temple Knights, 6x Silver Helms (with shields), St+ch (158)
Outriders, 5xReavers (spears), (80)

Rare (60):
Crash, Eagle, ASF (60)

Option 2:
Guardians of Solaris Shrine
General (free – 250pts cap – cannot change items, can only add as campaign progresses):
Moltén, Anointed of Asuryan – Heavy Armour, Halberd, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone (240)

Special (300):
Moltén’s Guard, 15x Phoenix Guard, FC + Razor Standard (300)

Core (158):
Temple Knights, 6x Silver Helms (with shields), St+ch (158)

Rare (140):
Shrine Sisters, 10xSisters

Option 3:
Guardians of Solaris Shrine
General (free – 250pts cap – cannot change items, can only add as campaign progresses):
Moltén, Anointed of Asuryan – Heavy Armour, Halberd, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone (240)

Special (300):
Moltén’s Guard, 15x Phoenix Guard, FC + Razor Standard (300)

Core (160):
Outriders, 5xReavers (spears), (80)
Outriders, 5xReavers (spears), (80)

Rare (140):
Shrine Sisters, 10xSisters
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#14 Post by Curu Olannon »

Defending the Archmage is trivial: Block of White Lions with Full Command, going 2 wide ;)

If you are set on the Anointed I suggest you design 1200 and 1800 lists with him to see how they play out. I think you`ll find yourself struggling with the 1200 one seeing as your magic will likely be lacking.

Also, Enchanted Shield is close to useless: Unless you have a magic weapon he uses the Halberd in close combat. I don`t know if you can take e.g. Warrior Bane and upgrade later on?
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#15 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:Defending the Archmage is trivial: Block of White Lions with Full Command, going 2 wide ;)
That's true I suppose. I guess I had the PG route in my head and wasn't thinking about WL shenanigens. But a WL cube would work just fine. I can see that Death AM would be a decent option.
If you are set on the Anointed I suggest you design 1200 and 1800 lists with him to see how they play out. I think you`ll find yourself struggling with the 1200 one seeing as your magic will likely be lacking.
It's not that magic is lacking so much (Lv2 high scroll/ring) is adequate I think, when going in MR2 PG. But I think I will lack board control BIG TIME. Basically, to fund the mage and the BSB I have to drop the rare, so I'd have no shooting at all beyond MM.
Also, Enchanted Shield is close to useless: Unless you have a magic weapon he uses the Halberd in close combat. I don`t know if you can take e.g. Warrior Bane and upgrade later on?
I was thinking that everyone gets a hand weapon for free (even if not listed - e.g. lance round 2) but you're right you cannot opt to use it with preference to the halberd, not even with the magic shield. This definitely diminishes his resilience, but at least it doesn't cost me anything as the general points are free. And come 1,200 I'll buy him a shiny +3S sword. Sadly I'm stuck with whatever I first buy for him, so while a +2S would fit I then cannot change it to +3S.

I'm starting to think that this dude is not as optimal as I had first hoped. But I'm gonna stick with him - I've never used one and I suspect no-one at the club will have faced off against one so it'll be an experiment.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#16 Post by Curu Olannon »

The Anointed it is, then :)

For 1200, a mage with ring could work. I`m not sure it`s enough (consider you could bring an L4 and others just might), but I`ll agree you likely can get by. Assuming that is your preferred approach then, we are looking at roughly:

Anointed, fully kitted = 300
BSB, Merwyrm, Heavy Armour = 114
Mage L2 Scroll, Ring = 170

Characters = 584

Core = 300

20 Phoenix Guard, FC, Razor Standard = 375

= 1259. You could drop a PG for an Eagle. This helps board control a bit. Flesh out core with 2x5 Reavers with bows (170 in total) and 12 Archers with musician (deployed 4x3, solid and effective for what you need them to do). It`s a decent list for sure, but consider that you could run a fully-fleshed out Helmbus here (no Banner though) with Frostheart support if you go down the road of a Prince, or a defensive fire-base with an L4 Death, RBTs and White Lions.

That said, your PG will be terribly hard at this points level. There are not a lot of units, if any, that can successfully take them on @1200 points ;)

What do you think?
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#17 Post by de kaasboer »

hi Ferny,

seems like an interesting campaign and great to try some non-standard builds :)

an option that just popped into my mind is to give the anointed the ring of fury. This would give you some magic in the first games (assuming not everyone takes a caster as general) which could boost the annointed and PG's ward save as well. and later on i do not think this is a bad option either (even boosting a Phoenixes ward save potentially), especially when combined with a lvl2 with scroll and possibly ruby ring (@1200+). Just something i think you could consider :)

additionally i think small units of silver helms are really good at lower point levels, to complement your elite block with some speed, leaves the rare points for shooting.

cheers,

J
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#18 Post by Browncastle »

Hey I just thought Id make a 600pts list, I really like that you go With the anointed, I did use him at a 2400p tournament. I really missed Crown of command. I really think you need this item for the 3 first matches.

Anointed
Crown of command, enchanted Shield

5 Silvehelms, Shields

5 Silverhelms, Shields

15 Phoenixguards
FCG, razorbanner

Bolthrower
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#19 Post by Ferny »

Hi guys,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Curu - at 1,200 I think the list suffers from over-investment in the PG unit. I misjudged quite how much you can milk the annointed for at low points, firstly as I hadn't realised he couldn't be 3+/3+/4++ at 600 and secondly because you're forced to have only core support for a hero-maxxed 1,200. I'm wondering whether at 1,200 10 sisters might be a more reliable investment than the Lv2 mage?

de kaasboer - ring of fury would be a good fit for the annointed, especially at low levels. Unfortunately, as we're not allowed to swop off items, it would mean that I can't hit my target of +3S, 3+/3+/4++ at higher levels. But it might still have been a good/better option to progress through the campaign with the ring and make the sacrifice higher, especially given my magical paucity at 600 and 1,200. But having played a game now I'm locked in to enchanted shield and dawnstone...

Likewise Browncastle - CoC fills an obvious gap in the PG 'deathstar' I'm trying for, but at higher points I'm planning to put it on the SoM BSB once I'm up to 1,200 or more, freeing up annointed points for the +3S, 3+/3+/4++ build.


Quick update - I won my first match against wood elves (Lv3/4 shadow+10 hagbane+8 waywatchers+10 wild riders). It was pretty much a wash - his wizard jumped down the hole T1 with 4PD on miasma, his wild riders charged my PG, broke and got run down. His waywatchers got decimated by my sisters and then pincered by the PG and cavalry, and eventually the PG made it down the backfield to trap and kill his archers. All I lost was the unit of helms on a gamble charge against the waywatchers, but I wasn't worried about the gamble because the game was basically in the bag so their loss didn't matter but if it had paid off it would have sped things up as the PG could have gone directly to the archers. I think he should have played much more evasion-y and forced me to advance into a hail of arrows. I'm not sure what his target priorities ought to have been, but I feel that they were wrong in this game (T1 helms, then-on PG). But really, with the general down the hole it was mine to lose. Next up: ogres then dwarfs...
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#20 Post by Curu Olannon »

I think that not taking magic at all is a huge mistake at 1200 points. With the Anointed, you are pretty much forced to playing infantry-dominated in an offensive manner if you face anything but a super-aggro list. At 1200 points you risk encountering L4s with artillery and special unit backup, for example OnG with multiple war machines, multiple characters, big blocks and manglers/fanatics. Magic helps mitigate this. I don`t see Sisters being that valuable here. Over-committing to PG is, I feel, pretty much a given since you took the Anointed. What is the alternative? He is not strong enough on his own to warrant no combat units at all, so you could of course take WL or SM but they would still suffer from the same overcommitment. With your league, 1200 is basically 950 compared to 600 since you get the general for free at the lowest level, meaning that the increase is only ~50%, not 100%, in terms of points. I think that having a solid core for 600 and adding a mage + bsb gives you a good starting point, doubly so when considering how dangerous PG with High Magic are. Furthermore, the flexibility of having double Soul Quench at 1200 is devastating to some armies where Sisters will be more of a liability than anything else (e.g. WE, DE, LZ: They can all just target your Sisters and kill them rather easily).
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#21 Post by Browncastle »

Ah I understand crown would be an liability at higher points. Well here is my take on 600pts
600p

Anointed
Enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of foolhardyness

15 PG - 300
FCG razor standard

14 Archers 150
hawkeye

5 sisters 80
high sister (BS 6)

bolthrower 70

Since your at 5" movement, I use all the rest of points to force your opponent towards you



1200

Anointed - 300
enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of foolhardyness, ogreblade, goldecrown

Noble - 139
barded steed, starlance, otts, charmed shield, heavy armour

handmaiden - 135
crown of command, ironcurse

10 Silverhelm 250
shield, FCG

5 reavers 80
spears

21 Sisters - 295

Big stubborn sisters unit! Noble with starlance and otts, since I expect you to run into lords that not usually show at 1200p. I dont think you need magic at this points value, since you got 4++ and 2++ vs death snipes. 3 s6(7), 3 s7, 11 s5 is pretty desent
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#22 Post by Ferny »

Browncastle wrote:Ah I understand crown would be an liability at higher points. Well here is my take on 600pts
600p

Anointed
Enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of foolhardyness

15 PG - 300
FCG razor standard

14 Archers 150
hawkeye

5 sisters 80
high sister (BS 6)

bolthrower 70

Since your at 5" movement, I use all the rest of points to force your opponent towards you
Fair shout. I went with 10 sisters and helm core instead, but your logic looks good.

1200

Anointed - 300
enchanted shield, dawnstone, potion of foolhardyness, ogreblade, goldecrown

Noble - 139
barded steed, starlance, otts, charmed shield, heavy armour

handmaiden - 135
crown of command, ironcurse

10 Silverhelm 250
shield, FCG

5 reavers 80
spears

21 Sisters - 295

Big stubborn sisters unit! Noble with starlance and otts, since I expect you to run into lords that not usually show at 1200p. I dont think you need magic at this points value, since you got 4++ and 2++ vs death snipes. 3 s6(7), 3 s7, 11 s5 is pretty desent
Your sister unit is a unique set up so far as I've ever seen...but the handmaiden is too fragile IMO, making the CoC too easy to nullify. Also, no magic. Could well work - original set up to be sure - but not what I went with (call me traditional :P).
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#23 Post by Ferny »

I forfeighted my remaining 2 600pt games because I couldn't make it to the club. So onto 1,200:

Annointed, +3S, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, 300
Noble, BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield of Myrwyrm, Luckstone, 125
Mage Lv2, Scroll, Ring of Fury, 170

14 Pheonix Guard, FC, Razor, 285

6 helms+ch+st, 158
5 reavers, 80
5 reavers, 80

So a total of 4 units. Plays super fast!

I played against a friendly scaven list tonight. 40 clanrats with sword and board, 40 with spears and shield, 20 plague monks with extra hand weapon, 6 giant rats, unit of (6?) rat ogres, 1 flamethrower team and one plague wind team, doomrocket engineer and warlord (biting blade). No magic. No BSB.

I rolled 1,1 for magic and took soul quench+flames of the pheonix. I know this makes casting from combat difficult, but with no shooting I wanted MMs to kill the weapons teams and flames to thin the hordes before the grind began. Besides, I figured with PG I'm gonna be winning big anyway, and I have 4++ min on the front rank, so...

He had very little ranged threat - his plague globe thing kept scattering and I killed his flamethrower early with MM (and PG ate the doomrocket). I halved one clanrat unit with flames, then did the same to the second, he failed to dispel in his turn and in mine it caused them to flee off the board. But he still had plague monks, 20 rats with the characters and the rat ogres (to no losses for me).

However, he let me charge the 20 rats front with PG and flank with SH...after the ASF settled there were no rats left to answer but the lord, who fluffed and failed his snake eyes. I ran him down and over-ran with both units into the rat ogres, which I'd rear charged same turn with reavers. I set up my initial charges to maximise base-to-base in such a way that the straight-line over-run would take me into the ogres, so this plan worked perfectly. I then had a second round of ASF with my elites which left just a single ogre standing, who then ran and was run down by reavers (avenging their one fallen kin). This swung it for me. It also wasn't, it turns out, a rule he was familiar with. I feel a bit bad about this but not too bad because he'll not forget it now!

He then charged my PG with his plague monks, I decimated them, he fled and I failed to catch. Last turn I failed to pin him down and he fails to rally. Game ends 1,040 for me for no losses.

One rules question did come up though - I'm super confused by who moves where and when in challenges, as this has a huge impact on allocating attacks - and that really matters with deathstar units like this.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#24 Post by Curu Olannon »

Challenges are easy, the only reason they are hard is because people keep mixing up rules from 6th and 7th edition:

The challenger never moves. If the challengee accepts, he moves into b2b with the challenger if he can do so. If he cannot, he simply stays put and the two are virtually in b2b (e.g. TOTS works). That`s all there is to it ;)

Note that the player whose turn it is has the priority when it comes to challenges. This is a big deal when you play a Dragonlord for example (or, in your case when the points increase: Anointed on bird) because when you charge in and place yourself next to an important model, you don`t want to have your enemy draw you to another part of the unit with a champion. Thus, you challenge first (seems to contradict common sense) to stay in place. If he accepts with the important model, you kill it. If the annoying champion accepts, you kill that one instead, in place to kill the important one next turn. If he refuses you have to push the important model to the back (assuming there aren`t more characters around) but that lets you kill the unit instead of the character so it`s a win-win-win :D

Congrats on the Skaven game, although the list looks very soft a win against the Rats is always a moral victory in my book ;) I suppose you anticipate harder games to come though, any ideas of what the others are taking?
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#25 Post by Ferny »

Curu Olannon wrote:Challenges are easy, the only reason they are hard is because people keep mixing up rules from 6th and 7th edition:

The challenger never moves. If the challengee accepts, he moves into b2b with the challenger if he can do so. If he cannot, he simply stays put and the two are virtually in b2b (e.g. TOTS works). That`s all there is to it ;)
What would prevent a challengee from moving into B2B contact? I fear this maybe another case of where it really matters whether you can move characters around which are already in B2B (see the thread where we discuss moving your BSB to a corner to protect it).
Congrats on the Skaven game, although the list looks very soft a win against the Rats is always a moral victory in my book ;) I suppose you anticipate harder games to come though, any ideas of what the others are taking?
Cheers, its nice to win even if this time its due to opponent error rather than personal triumph. I was happy with how I set up the combat once the opportunity presented, so I'll claim that for my learning curve.

Lists will change at each points level, but so far one dwarfs has been taking max gyros and war machines and the other a fairly soft infantry force. WoC have chariots, chimera, slanesh DP, hounds, probably disc character - basically filth (and played by one of our best players). Daemons centre on 30 plaguebearers, big papa nurgle, tzeench disk caster, khornecannon. Ogres I'm not sure, but I'm guessing classic gutstar (limited by points). Not sure about the others.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League - anointed 600pt l

#26 Post by Curu Olannon »

A number of things could prevent him from reaching b2b. Example: A Dragon flank-charges a unit of Empire Knights. An Arch Lector in the front rank, not on the corner touching the Dragon, issues a challenge. Moving to accept a challenge cannot be used to change frontage like that, you can only "slide" up and down an existing frontage.

Some of the lists sound really tough. Let`s hope you end up meeting a combination of list and player skill that makes for an interesting game throughout the league, that`s always where the most fun is had by everyone ;)
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League: AnointedStar 1,20

#27 Post by Ferny »

The League was concieved to get people excited about fantasy again at the club. We go in phases, but often enough there's just the same 3 of us constantly playing each other with the same or similar armies week after week. But with this we've got about 12 players with 6-8 playing fantasy each week - I'm loving it! And sadly I'm not a great player really so as long as my opponent isn't a complete noobie at the game then I can learn something from every game I reckon. That said, I'd love to play vs some really top players the way my dad taught me to play chess, basically in tutorial mode where each move is talked over (and we even went back a few if something turned out to be stupid a few moves later - I wouldn't take it that far in warhammer, but I'd love a running commentary).
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League: AnointedStar 1,20

#28 Post by Curu Olannon »

That sounds great! I did something similar at my old club a few years ago (you can read about it in my old blog) and it really did significantly increase the level of interest. Running leagues and cups is a great way to ensure that you don`t play the same 24x7 every time you want to push models around.

The best way to learn I believe is to make reports and spend time analyzing the games on your own and with the input of others. Playing against clearly superior players can definitely be interesting and you can learn a lot, but the skill difference can also quickly be so big that the lessons are lost. I always strive to challenge myself against hard opponents but I`ve never been a fan of the difference being too big, it`s like bashing your head against a wall.
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Re: 600*/1200/1800/2400 Escalation League: AnointedStar 1,20

#29 Post by Ferny »

I played an MSU ogre bulls list the other week. Basically Lv4 slaughtermaster, 3x1 dogs, 1x4? leadbelchers, 1xcannon and 4 or 5 4man ogre units. Still at 1,200 level.

Magic - Ogres: Stubborn, no AS S2 missile, regen, toughness
Magic - Elves: Drain Magic, Apotheosis (I chose to keep Apotheosis and drop tempest) - wanted spells I could cast even in combat.

I fealt my biggest threat was the leadbelchers because they could thin my PG ranks or kill any of my MSU cavalry at will. So I deployed my reavers and helms in cover or out of range and my PG opposite them ready to advance full-steam ahead. I kinda slingshotted them through a building and into their face so they couldn't escape. I scrolled stubborn in case I didn't kill them outright (as his entire army had turned to face and I didn't want to be flank/rear charged. He ran and I reformed. After that I basically took out one unit of ogres at a time, culminating in the one with his slaughtermaster. I don't think he should have let me control the game like that, but I'll take victory where I can find it.

A couple of things of note:
1) I was scared to get my reavers get charged by his dogs - 3xA at S4 and a charge could well win if I don't kill it first
2) I was also scared to charge them cos it generally left me in a foul position to be counter-charged, so I was mostly dancing aroudn them
3) Helms could tank their charge happily, but with only S3 attacks aren't sure to win/kill it, but the banner helps (oh for a musician!)
4) dogs on steroids (toughness boost and or regen) are surprisingly good roadblocks with their small footprint.

So yeah, all the notes were about dogs and cavalry because everything else was in a single unit which ate all in its path. Mind you, by the end I only had command models and characters left, so they did get ground down in the process. Can't wait for 1,800 where I will actually have a bit more of an army to play with again!
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