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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:15 pm 
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Dear Asurian Friends,

My last posts here already date back from about two years ago (amazing).
Corona is an obvious incentive to reopen your boxes and move the miniatures to the table.
So, this is what my girl and I did. The ageold Battle for the Dishes.

Jokes aside, we played a total of four (!) 2250 battles of Tomb Elves versus High Kings (don't be too critical, endorse pun), in what ended as a four-battle derby spread over three days.
It might take a while to write it all up, so I hope I can keep up it up anyway.

PRELUDE

The basic-ruleset is WHFB 7th Edition, while army books used are 6th. For us, this gives the best combination enjoying and competing. I can still recommend it.
6th Edition ruleset had its trouble, but most of these were fixed in 7th. Then 7th Army books were sterilized from the story line and is notorious for lacking options in HE.
8th, I do not bother since WHFB blew out like a flame. Too many dices, too few hard skills involved ;) .

Anyway, I wanted to field a cavalry list with a fluff. Yes, Griffon! Against Tomb Kings, Siege Weapons are not so much a bother since catapults are flaming attacks.
Rest is pretty pretty standard for cavalry lists. But Griffon. The plan is to have sword of hoeth to ensure chipping off those wounds on the constructs and have them melted by static combat resolution. Battle banner and chariots ensure the push I need to melt more undead.

First battle
---------------------------------------------
LISTs

ASUR
Prince 125
Sword of Hoeth 60
Helm of Fortune 25
Talisman of Protection 10
Dragon Armour 8
Shield 3
Griffon 200


Mage 100
Dispel Scroll 20
Dispel Scroll 20
Steed+bard 17


Commander 70
Lance 4
Dragon armour 6
Shield 2
Ithilmar steed 17
Battle standard 25
Battle banner 80
Pure of Heart 0


Tiranoc Chariot 85
Tiranoc Chariot 85


Silver Helms 9x 207
Full command 35
Warbanner 25


Silver Helms 9x 207
Full command 35


Silver helms 5x 115

Dragon Princes 10x 260
Full command 40
Banner of Arcane protection 40
Blessed Tome 25



Ellyrian Reavers 5x 90
musician 7


Ellyrian Reavers 5x 90
musician 7


Great Eagle 50
Great Eagle 50
==================
Khemri

Tomb Queen (with Armour of Scrop and the healing spear)
Hierophant (Flying cloak and extra spell item)
Hierophant (Brooch and Scroll)

10x Archers
10x Archers
40x Hand Weapon and Shield skellies FC with undying banner (She totally expected my mobile list....though...I have a weak spot for GWIFFON!!!!....I mean who can resist GWIFFON, which was also her birthday present to me, ten years ago...)
3x Chariots

25x Tomb Guard FC
3x Carrion
3x Carrion
4x Ushabti
1x Scorption (Yes, we found out later that the list was illegal...but army builder didnt pick it up)

1x Skull Catapult
1x Bone Giant

In other words, a canopener list and tools to anticipate my more mobile elements.
My Lv1 picks High Magic for drain magic, but it never comes through.

In the next post I will follow through G1

A little warm-up...

Image

I do intend to finish this guy. It's been sitting in the base colours for ages ;) ....

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:43 am 
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Cool! Looking forward to the battle reports.
I've never learned much about Tomb Kings, this could be an opportunity (even though you are not playing with 8th ruleset)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:18 pm 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
Cool! Looking forward to the battle reports.
I've never learned much about Tomb Kings, this could be an opportunity (even though you are not playing with 8th ruleset)


Tomb Kings are a very poor-performing army in 8th. They lost their character, their special rules and, most notably, their intended strategy is nearly worthless. 8th is designed to flank charge with the big monsters in units that are tied down by the skellies or tomb guard. But given that 8th edition has such an output of attacks, your flankers will simply melt to combat resolution. 8th Tomb Kings is really handicapped leaving you with just a few options, compared to High Elves which are a solid lower top tier army.

Then, as everyone here, I disliked the 7th edition HE army book.

So, 6th Ed it is! In 6th Edition/early 7th, Tomb Kings were actually pretty powerful. Anyway, tonight I'll try to run down on round 1!
But they behave differently, especially in the magic phase :) .

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:13 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Tomb Kings were actually pretty powerful. Anyway, tonight I'll try to run down on round 1!
But they behave differently, especially in the magic phase :) .

Yeah, I remember them being magically relentless Flame. You do have those solid cavalry units though. Love the mauve dice!

:)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:41 pm 
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Asuryan Cavalry versus Nehekharan Monsters Round 1

Deployment:

The idea was to smash the big blocks of cavalry supported by Tiranocs in a flanking position on the big blocks of undead, then inflict as much Combat Resolution points to crumble the lot. However, girlfriend outsmarted me and put everything of relevance in the corner. After 5 deploys of decoy, I couldn't get around trying to put as much weight as a could on the right flank. Here, the GWIFFON prince served as the hunter of constructs. Would I be hitting the Bone Giant or the Ushabti, I would be sure to whipe off the blocks of the board.

Image

Turn 1: Saw pretty much nothing. GF being a sitting a duck and giving up on the weak flank immediately. Magic phase wasn't so spectacular as she wasn't go to move anywhere. My turn saw a relocation of my mobile units to block countercharge opportunities in the following turn. The left flank was a no-brainer to me, just surge forward the Reavers and Silverhelms and whipe out archers and catapult.

Image

I did figure that I could probably charge the Bone Giant first with Chariot and Griffon at this point, while the Reavers would charge the Carrion. In doing so, my Prince could serve as a flank attacker and the cavalry wouldn't be so exposed to the flank. I suspected I could bring down the Bone Giant to 1-2 wounds after combat Resolution and burning the scrolls to prevent healing, then whipe it out in turn 3, while freeing up the battlefield from those pesky Carrion (do remember that here there is one unit of Carrion illegal).

Turn 2: And so I did! Griffon Prince and Chariot charge the Bone Giant, then my single impact hit bounced of the Giant. My Griffon Prince didnt perform much better, each Prince and Griffon scoring only a single wound on the Giant. Bone Giant then trample the Tiranoc Chariot dead in the soil. And I fail to hold the ground with my Griffon Prince, that subsequently flees, but manages to avoid the daunting feet of the Giant.

The reavers did, however, eat the Carrion for breakfast on the charge.

Worse, the Scorpion comes up on the TK turn 2 and charges the Silver Helms, subsequently winning the combat and turning the back, hoping to rid the Scorpion after a turn.

Image

Turn 3 HEMy Prince rallies. I decided to smash the BSB'er in combat with his Silver Helms and using the Reavers to charge her Chariots to prevent the flank charge. Dragon Princes were held back to anticipate any counter charges. My second chariot then aligns to offer the possibility of double charging the Ushabti. Meanwhile, my second Reaver unit and small Silver Helm unit completely swipe trough the left flank. However, there were not a lot of points to gain from there....

All good, but cursing about the Giant, which leaves the centre wide open to be be exploited. Oops...

Turn 3 TK Not a lot happens, Tomb Guard get to hold their ground, Giant charges the Griffon Prince who promptly gets eaten. Or rather, the Griffon gets eaten in a truly unstoppable assault (a total of 8 to 9 attacks were made!).

Turn 4-6 Mainly serves to preserve points, for me. The Giant basically was able to rampage through my lions, eating the Tiranoc Chariot and a Unit of Silverhelms. In the end, I do manage to crumble the Tomb Guard to dust, but the main skellies remain. The Scorpion armour, healing spear and banner of the undying legion make that this unit never drops below 30 models. A magical charge put the Ushabti in the Dragon Princes, who lose more than half the unit but manage to survive.

After points calculation, it's roughly 600 to 1600, granting a solid victory favouring the Tomb Kings!

TK 1 - 0 HE

If not for that Giant...was I overconfident to win that combat? I don't know. Felt pretty winnable to me!

So I offered a rematch :) , which was gladly accepted!

And as such, next off will be Round 2 of the Epic HE vs TK Derby!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:52 am 
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Looks like a fun battle.

I think there may have been 2 issues. The first is that you put too much trust in the prince + griffon. Griffons re not bad (though they're not great either), but they aren't very good as a main combat unit. This makes them very different from a dragon (or many other monsters). They can't fight stuff on their own. They're a good force multiplier and support unit though.

The other is that I think your army was too spread out. HE work best if all units work together, using their mobility to take favorable engagements. Your army tried to cover the entire deployment zone and it feels a bit like each unit was dealt with one at a time. Having everything closer together and picking your fights (and charging in with overwhelming force) might have been better.

Though the giant seems to have performed better than one would expect. Normally I think White Lions should be able to deal with him. At least, that's my feeling, I haven't math-hammered it.

Bring on the next battle :D

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:36 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Giant charges the Griffon Prince who promptly gets eaten.

Ouch! Just how good is this dude?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:49 pm 
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How does the Undead giant compare to other giants and why did you not have RBT's to take it down?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:17 pm 
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Asuryan Cavalry versus Nehekharan Monsters Round 2

Deployment

This time I liked the terrain better, and choosing table side was a no brainer here. For TK, it mean either corner up with the catapult or left of the big forest, which, combined with difficult terrain, would impair support for the big blocks. This time, I retro-actively followed the suggestion by Roderick to actually put all cavalry blocks together :D , but had more to do with now really first dropping al chaff first. By placing some of the redirectors in the center, I could anticipate placing of any of the opposing blocks with my own units. Would I be able to be annoying with Reavers and Eagles, I'd surely be able to funnel my cavalry units to hit at the right time.

Image

One again, my BSB is my general :) . But Blessed Tome means I ensure that LD = 10 bubble.

Turn 1 TK
Nothing really happens, slowly moving forward - it at all. Screaming skull hits my Great Eagle behind the Reavers, but it only suffers 2 wounds. Nothing else is really effective.

Turn 1 HE
I surged everything foward. To the right, I decided to shield my Eagle from the arrow fire, then probably charge the catapult. Reavers and Eagles were positioned so to be able to slow down my opponent's chaff units. Again, Griffon and Chariot position to combo charge, but this time I wanted to hit opposing Chariot unit. This would then propel this unit into the Ushabti, which I should have no difficulty to crumble.

Turn 2 TK
D***ed Scorpion comes up, and the situation is as follows;

Image

Movement
Scorpion comes up and charges the Dragon Princes, as it would stand no chance against the Battle Banner.
To the right, skeleton light cavalry charge the flank of my Silver Helms, which is just barely visible. Rustiness or miscalculation on my part.
To the left, Carrion rear charge my reavers in what will turn out to be yet another miscalculation.

The rest shuffles forward, if possible. Especially the Tomb Guard.
Magic Sees an SSC shot land in my Silver Helms, but no wounding somehow.

Shooting sees a Reaver getting killed and no wounds being struck on the forward eagle by bowfire. Sees SSC to finish my right eagle, as odds would otherwise indicate my Eagle to beat it anyway.

Combat sees the Dice Lords cursing on the Carrion, who manage not to wound a single a hit, while suffering three in return prompting these to crumble
The light cavalry win combat by one kill (I did not upgrade this small unit with armour), so not much happened here.

Scorpion scores a kill, but being outnumbered and a battle standard means it also suffers a wound.

Turn 2 HE

Movement
Charge! I Charge my Griffon Prince and Tiranoc Chariot into the chariot unit and reposition Reavers and Eagle to redirect any potential incoming charges. I foward my Silverhelms slightly to be able to charge on the 3rd Turn. Scorpion combat allows only the Helm units to move freely.

Magic/Shooting
Bwhaha, next. Or wait! Banner of Arcane Protection hit the Scorp!

Combat
Guess what, the chariot unit crumbles and Griffon and Chariot promptly hit the Ushabti.
On the right, Cavarly archers manage to break the unarmoured silver helms and pursuit in a position to charge the Reavers.

Turn 3 TK

Movement
Opponent charges the Eagle with Bone Giant, but this blocks the skellie-unit from moving. Meanwhile cavalry archers charge the Reavers, which I preferred to hold to block movement on the Tomb Guard block. .
Scorp had only one wound left.

Photo from before Giant charge, but with Cavalry charge already put in place.
Image

Magic
In the magic phase, I do bombard attempts to have the Ushabti strike with dispel dice.
A magicphase attack in the reavers, halves the right unit in combat strength...oops...

Shooting
Skull catapult hits silver helms and finally rips some.

Combat
Combat sees Ushabti getting crushed and Prince and Chariot reform to point to the flank.
The Reaver unit to the right is destroyed. The scorpion is still there...

Turn 3 HE

Movement
Griffon and Chariot issue a flank charge in the 40 HWS skellies and my Cavalry blocks aligning to make a final charge.
Left Reavers replace the Right Reavers as annoyance.

Combat
Combat sees the Scorpion finally succumb and Griffon and Chariot inflict massive casualties (10+ on the hand-weapon shield block)

Turn 4-6 TK/HE

Image

Eventually, Bone Giant attacks Dragon Princes and rips some, but my Dragon Princes only just barely manage to hold, after having inflicted many casualties. My BSB unit countercharges said Bone Giant, which whiffs the rolls and crumbles.

The Prince eventually gets flanked by the Tomb Guard and in turn 5, Griffon and Chariot are still there in the flank! But the Griffon does do enough damage to not break under pressure and I challenge my way into turn 6. My unit of Silver Helms gets into the rear of the Tomb Guard, but everything gets bogged down in the middle. Prince survies at 2 wounds, Griffon and Chariot on 1.
I did manage to kill the Liche Priest. Combat rolls are below average, except for the Griffon Prince. Revenge from game 1? Not much else is going on, on the way out.

In the end we calculate points and I managed to get ~1200 versus ~500 for the Tomb Kings. Most of my blocks are still running around and I vaporized all of the Constructs. In addition, I managed to kill a liche priest and was able to bring a block down to halve. Myself, I mostly lost chaf and had some underhalfies.

:D TK 1 - 1 HE :D

At this point, we decide to come up with new army lists...

HINT:

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? It's a c....!!!11

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:23 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
Looks like a fun battle.

I think there may have been 2 issues. The first is that you put too much trust in the prince + griffon. Griffons re not bad (though they're not great either), but they aren't very good as a main combat unit. This makes them very different from a dragon (or many other monsters). They can't fight stuff on their own. They're a good force multiplier and support unit though.

The other is that I think your army was too spread out. HE work best if all units work together, using their mobility to take favorable engagements. Your army tried to cover the entire deployment zone and it feels a bit like each unit was dealt with one at a time. Having everything closer together and picking your fights (and charging in with overwhelming force) might have been better.

Though the giant seems to have performed better than one would expect. Normally I think White Lions should be able to deal with him. At least, that's my feeling, I haven't math-hammered it.

Bring on the next battle :D

Rod


Hi,

Indeed, strategy wise this is something I considered as well. I can't help it but say that my intuition in this game faded away. Anyway, in my second game I tried to focus my deployment more, without taking gambles, but a scorpion was in the way of a proper execution of that plan :D .

Don't be too critical, endorse GWIFFON! In all seriousness, I think it should'veen be pretty decent as a Construct hunter, but that Bone Giant is tough! I am not too sure if White Lions would be a proper answer here. The beast is really tough. White Lions charging could make the difference the though, but remember that they strike last in 6th.

SpellArcher wrote:
Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Giant charges the Griffon Prince who promptly gets eaten.

Ouch! Just how good is this dude?


MasterOfNone wrote:
How does the Undead giant compare to other giants and why did you not have RBT's to take it down?


Taking these together...Bone Giant in 6th has stats like a regular giant, except that it has a 3+ armour save so skinks can't reliably down it. In addition, it has five normal attacks. However, each time you hit and wound a target, you may make another attack. There is no limit to the number of attacks it can generate. I have seen some crazy dicing from this dude. I've seen some horror coming from these attacks in the past, the worst I've seen was against a 30 Night Goblin unit with a mage, and, needing 3+/2+ all the time, managed to kill like 20 goblins before breaking and running over the unit. At other times, I have seen it eating through a unit of ogres in a similar fashion.

The potence of a Bone Giant in a 6th Edition environment is pretty good. Its attacks can snowball and it's defence is adequate, with high toughness and above average armour save. Cannons and stone throwers are a good solution, but I generally do not like Bolt Throwers to fire at the Bone Giant. Yes, you can wound at a rate of D3, but so is the regeneration of wounds. Whittling down its wound counter is a slow process. Since bolt throwers are used in the early phase and my gf has a counter-defensive playstyle, all magic will be on healing the Giant. Once the Bolt Throwers are becoming more relevant, they are often eaten by 40"-charging carrion or scorpions already.

Anyway, off to Round 3!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:15 pm 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Bone Giant in 6th has stats like a regular giant, except that it has a 3+ armour save

This would make a big difference in 8th as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:07 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
Bone Giant in 6th has stats like a regular giant, except that it has a 3+ armour save

This would make a big difference in 8th as well.


It would! Not sure why that part got nerfed for TK's in 8th. But then again, the whole flair, uniqueness and punch of Tomb Kings got badly hit in 8th anyway. Even in 9th Age, the old magic system still did not return.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:32 am 
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Flame of the Asuryan wrote:
This time, I retro-actively followed the suggestion by Roderick to actually put all cavalry blocks together

Glad to see you listened to the advice I later gave you.... 8)

The intuition of the game does indeed disappear over time. As does knowing the exact stats and rolls you need. It does come back after playing a few games. But the first few games after I haven't played for a while are always a bit slow and uncomfortable.

It looked like a fun battle. Congrats on the win.

I do think it's a shame that a lot of the unique flavor of the TK disappeared with their 8th ed. book. And they suffered from being the first book that got released. The later ones were more balanced against each other. I do like a lot of the units they added to the TK. Those did differentiate them a lot more from VC and gave them some great models. It would have been awesome if those models would have been better in battles. That would have made for an awesome army. Even more so with some more flavor in their special rules.

Rod

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:56 pm 
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Asuryan Cavalry versus Nehekharan Monsters Round 3

Round 3!!!

This time, we decided to change army list composition. I suspected a more shooting heavy list and I wanted to try a Comet list myself. I should probably be playing Cavalry with Archmage, but I played more a hybrid list with five small units of cavalry and big blocks to follow up. I wanted to test White Lions and see how medium they really were in 6th edition. Otherwise, I came up with the idea of including two Mage commanders, which would beef up my Dispel dices to 6, while casting Drain Magic when not in combat and Walk Between Worlds in combat. This time I also wanted to try the Bolt Throwers, to rid potential harassing light cavalry. My list this time was more of an all-comers list.

Opposing list indeed had multiple catapults and archer units, and was also a balanced list. I will dig up the army list for round 4. It did contain two scorpions, this time, and three Lich Priests. No Giant.

##
Archmage $Heavens 350
L4
Ring of Corin
Jewel of the Dusk
Scroll
Seer
Pure of Heart

Commander $High Lore
Loremaster
Channeler
Great Weapon

Commander $High Lore
RGoH
Dragon Armour
Great Weapon
BSB

Silver Helms, no armour, mus 5
Archer, mus 11
Silver Helms, no armour, mus 5
Silver Helms, no armour, mus 5

Reavers 5
Reavers 5

Swordmasters 24
FC
Banner of Sorcery

White Lions 24
FC
Banner of Arcane Protection
Blessed Tome

Rep Bolt thrower 100 100
Rep Bolt thrower 100 100


2250

Deployment

Landscape was quite open. I deployed my small units, until the Catapults were dropped, and promptly placed my infantry out of sight, to prevent first turn shots. I felt pretty confident that my infantry blocks would endure only a single round of shooting before hitting in combat, here.

I chose Comet, Uranon's Thunderbolt, Celestial Shield and the re-rolls.

Image


Turn 1 HE

In movement phase, I move forward my infantry blocks and my left cavalry blocks. The right wing cavalry mainly prepared redirections for my enemy.

In magic phase, Comet gets dispelled, drain magic too. Then, I pick up my last two remaining dice and double check the line of sight on my archmage. I noticed that the catapult the Hierophant joined aligned perfectly for Uranon's Thunderbolt...since ripping the catapult crews should be my priority, why not? I roll 8. Opponent rolls 6. I score six hits. Lucky me! four hit the crew. Joy! three of those hit the Hierophant. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god! TWO WOUNDS.

The Hierophant crumbles. All flankers take a beating, while left catapult outright disappears. Units under general LD suffer one wound at most.

Since there is no way of stopping what I have since everything now must remain in the general's range. But I have loads and loads of flankers. Thus, my opponent concedes a massacre.

:D TK 1 - 2 HE :D

Ultra short one, this. I forgot to make a picture. The next round is more of a coin-flip, I promise!

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Last edited by Flame of the Asuryan on Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:33 am 
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You should be nicer to your girlfriend ;)

Every now and then such a battle is fun to have, where everything goes south from the start. And from what I remember, the crumble rules were very harsh in 6th edition.

Nothing much that can be said about the battle. For deployment I do wonder if the central SH unit would have been better on the other side of the archers. It probably made little difference, with their high movement. But it could have given you more punch if you had charged stuff on the right flank.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:34 am 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
You should be nicer to your girlfriend ;)

Every now and then such a battle is fun to have, where everything goes south from the start. And from what I remember, the crumble rules were very harsh in 6th edition.

Nothing much that can be said about the battle. For deployment I do wonder if the central SH unit would have been better on the other side of the archers. It probably made little difference, with their high movement. But it could have given you more punch if you had charged stuff on the right flank.

Rod


Hahahaha, yes! I guess this was just too much to take XD . LD checks were not absurdly high, but the lower rolls mainly grouped around for units near the general :) .

Concerning the deploys, the centered SH unit was one of the first units I deployed. I do not think either position would matter, since indeed the fast Tomb King units were already deployed (i just realized a forgot two units of Light Horsemen to add...).

But indeed, game 4 was played directly after this one ;) .

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