HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

Yet again, thanks to the hospitality of Darth Sabre, we could play a game and this time he decided to bring big guns. Star Dragon themed list that looked like this:

Caledor - Army List

Prince, Star Dragon, Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation - 593
BSB, Griffon with Swooping Strike and Swiftsense, Dragon Armor, Shield, Star Lance, Potion of Foolhardiness, Dragon Helm - 347
Mage, Level 2, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury - 180

18 Archers, Musician, Standard Bearer - 200
18 Archers, Musician, Standard Bearer - 200
8 Silver Helms, Full Command - 214

Skycutter - 95

Frostheart - 240
3 x Eagle Claw - 210
2 x Great Eagle, Swiftsense - 120

Very fast army with no less than 4 fliers and even the small skycutter can take on my small units on its own. Backed up by very good shooting and decent heavy cavalry that army seems to have no weaknesses for my force. Let's go through that list in more details.

Prince on Star Dragon - the most expensive model on the battle field but also the most powerful one. Regular dragon is a trouble, this is even worse. Whatever unit he attacks is dead simply because there are so many attacks, backed up by thunder stomp. He will want to be in combat from turn 2 so I need to do everything to slow it down.

First, challenges will be helpful in that regard. As usual against large flying monsters I need to be careful with potential overrun/pursuit paths so that there is no chain reaction of charges. Second, while tough it is still vulnerable to magic missiles (in particular the Prince) and even bow fire can get a wound here and there. While desperate measure it may help to make it nervous about incoming combats and the good thing is that my units may attack before Star Dragon so they will have a chance to wound it too. Finally, Searing Doom and Bolt Thrower are my best bets against it. If all together is combined I have a chance to take it out in the course of the game.

So the idea is to keep it away from combat as long as possible and use the opportunities to take away the wounds.

BSB on Griffon - much more fragile than Star Dragon, it still hits powerfully. 3 attacks with star lance and ASF for griffon (who gets devastating charge and +1S on the charge too!) is a very good combination. Not to mention thunder stomps. So against Swordmasters or Lions BSB and his Griffon will strike before my warriors, with all the re-rolls they need. I am afraid there will be not much left to strike back and they will be soon finished by t-stomps.

Griffon has no armor, however, so I will try to exploit that weakness. In fact, I would try to hunt it down with bows, bolt thrower or magic first as it is easier to wound. If I can make BSB a pedestrian he will be more vulnerable and will not be able to support the Prince. It is very important because if they attack together then even with the challenge I might not have enough bodies left to remain steadfast.

Mage - Heavens magic is actually very good against MSU as I had a chance to experience a few times. Fortunately, this is not level 4 so there is a smaller chance to have a comet and a chain lightning in the same magic phase. Ring of Fury is a very good addition and mobile mage will be further adding to the potential damage done by other range attacks.

Archers - 2 units of 18 makes for a good support for sure. Large enough to fight off light troops of the enemy can assure that the big fliers can do their job and don't worry about the rear guard. They are also numerous on their own to inflict some casualties before the enemy is hit by assault teams.

Banners add to the Blood and Glory scenario and while we didn't play one I mention that because this is the basis for 3000 point army Darth is going to use in a tournament.

Silver Helms - their main role is to provide shelter for the mage and keep up the pace with the fliers for the purpose of augments and hexes. But they are also a decent unit on their own and can help clearing unit that may somehow escape the attention of the heavy hitters.

Skycutter - definitely not a popular choice but fits into the theme and may fly under the radar (literally) due to bigger threats. It may further add to the impressive damage potential with its impact hits although has to be used with care as it is the most fragile unit. Again, may be as well used for the guarding duties and support silver helms.

Frostheart - addition of the third flying monster looks like overkill for this game. Frost aura may not be that useful against my units but it is a very good support monster for sure. Against small units it can comfortably charge and tie up some regiments to help Star Dragon and BSB to catch their prey.

3 Bolt throwers - always dangerous and the more the better for my opponent. In the case of this army they also fit nicely because the speed of the fliers can assure they will have clear line of sight to many targets. And combination of highly maneuverable, hard hitting characters that would force me to move fast too and bolt throwers (that will threaten with single bolt flank shots) is simply deadly.

There is a possibility that terrain and the fact I have many units will allow me to get to them fast enough to eliminate that threat while big fliers are busy elsewhere. Hence, the general plan was:

- avoid combat as long as possible
- shoot and cast magic at BSB
- if winds of magic are favorable, risk big searing doom against the dragon
- don't stand still as the enemy is too fast and can cover any distance quickly

I didn't have time to consider any changes to the army list and besides, I don't have much to choose from in terms of painted models so I took the same army I played against Micheal in our previous game:

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster, Earthing Rod, Dragon Helm, Talisman of Endurance - 295
Bob the BSB, Dragon Armor, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ring of Fury - 155
Nasher the Noble, Dragon Armor, Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster Shard - 145

15 Archers, Full Command - 180
15 Sea Guard, Full Command - 210
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows - 105
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows - 105

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 165
5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 155
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 150
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard of Discipline - 165
10 White Lions, Musician, Gleaming Pennant - 155
5 Shadow Warriors - 70

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
Great Eagle - 50
5 Sisters of Avelorn - 70

Prologue

The news were grave indeed. Restless dead were seen in places they have never been encountered before. Disturbing news about the death of the great Elven heroes circulated among the warriors like wildfire. Rumors about End Times were openly discussed as it was always customary for the Outcasts.

Larry, Bob and Nasher studied the maps intensely as if staring at the same charts they knew by heart would bring more information and maybe even some answers. A pile of open letters on the nearby table revealed seals that belonged to Asur, some to Asrai and even a few to Druchii.

"I can't believe it can happen even in a dream" - said Nasher without breaking the study of yet another scroll - "Grand unification? I don't think Aenarion himself could do it now, after thousands of years of constant civil war"
"It has already happened once" - Larry pointed out while picking up a new letter from the messenger.
"You cannot compare the few individuals who joined our ranks to whole nations!" - the knight protested firmly.
"Why not? It takes a pebble to start an avalanche after all." - replied the Loremaster with a hint of a smile. - "In any case, we need to make sure Ulthuan stands united and the recent rumors about Imrik worry me a lot. They need a common cause to join forces even if they can't stand each other"
"I don't understand how the danger of Daemonic invasion is not enough" - murmured Nasher - "How are we going to do that alone? Do we have any friends on Ulthuan to rely upon?"
"You know very well we have no friends there" - Bob cut in - "Besides, Outcasts always fought alone"
"Nothing is better to unite the nation than the enemy that comes from their own ranks" - added Larry - "so we need to strike here"

Nasher looked at the map and blinked. Then looked at Larry, then at Bob, as if looking for some trace of a joke. He found none. Both were dead serious.

"Caledor? You want to strike at Caledor?"
"Yes, Caledor. Don't worry, boy, as long as you remember that any Elf in red or green is not your friend, you will be just fine" - chuckled Bob.
"But how do you plan to win against Dragons with such a small force at your disposal?"
"We will try to win as always but the main purpose is to hurt something Caledorians treasure the most, so that they cannot ignore us" - added Larry, gesturing to another messenger and giving the last orders - "Their pride"


Prince Serien sat astride the mighty Star Dragon Seryn and surveyed the battle field.

He turned to Turin, his friend and trusted standard bearer "This is what they send against the might of Caledor? Are they serious? A bunch of outcasts from the mountains of Chrace, cast offs from the White Tower and expelled Caledorians that should be ashamed off themselves"

Turin sat astride the mighty Griffon Stormclaw and agreed. "My friend these are dark times, maybe the End of Times, how else can you explain elves attacking elves. Caledor and Aenerion would be shocked. However we must do what we must? These outcasts need to be taught a lesson and shown the full might of Caledor. Onwards my friend, let's cast aside these pheasants and await the storm that is clearly coming from the Realm of a Chaos"

With distain Serien nodded and urged Seryn to the sky "attack - show no mercy"

And with that the might of Caledor descended upon the rag tag band of outcasts.


Deployment

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Armies deployed in both corners. In the background a chaos portal, fortunately, not active yet!

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Deployment after vanguard moves

We rolled for the terrain based on the maps on this website as our terrain generator: UB maps by RojoDiver

It was a symmetric terrain, with 3 stories towers in both corners and impassable terrain in the form of ruins and pillars. It was enough to see enemy units more often than not but it proved during the course of the battle that even the pillars can be significant obstacles.

Larry joined Sea Guard to be able to cast spells turn 1 and Bob led nearby Swordmasters.

Darth rolled for the spells and his level 2 got following: Iceshard, Curse of the Midnight Wind

He also won the roll off and his was the first turn!

Caledor - Turn 1

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They are coming!

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Caledorian Prince leads by example

Without further delay, the Prince leads his warriors to the battle, atop his powerful Star Dragon. He intends to have a warm up and kill a few stragglers on the Western flank. All his warriors maintain perfect formation.

At the same time, the shooter follow the orders and begin thinning down enemy ranks. Ellyrian Reavers paid the price for being too exposed and a lonely survivor barely holds the line and even that after the encouragements from the nearby BSB.

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Outcasts need to react fast

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Moving towards the fire base

Outcasts move towards the fire base of the enemy but at the same time maintain formation that would allow to attack if the Caledorian Prince decided to change the direction of his assault. Double line protected the units behind and limited shooting was directed at the great eagle.

Only Eagle Claw crew had more freedom in choosing the target and they spotted exposed flank of caledorian knights. Single bolt sailed through the air and knocked down 3 proud warriors!

Caledor - Turn 2

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Western flank under attack

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White Lions are toasted by the fiery breath of a dragon

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Shooting takes away almost all Shadow Warriors and nearby Reavers

Caledorians stick to the plan and attack first enemy units. Sisters hold the line briefly but are forced to flee from the Skycutter attack. This time they managed to run away. Nearby Lions hold fast against the dragon flames but 4 of them die in the process.

On the Eastern flank Archers aim at shadow warriors but they are not that accurate. Even bolt throwers do not finish them off but nearby reavers suffer casualties as well. Still, single warriors from both units remain and they are ready to avenge fallen companions.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Circling around

ImageOutcasts move to the center of the battle field

Outcasts keep moving so that majority of the regiments are out of sight of the flying death. Every second that delays seeming inevitable combat counts. At the same time they need to advance towards the weaker shooters and try to wither the incoming fire.

Shadow Warrior and Ellyrian Reaver attack enemy bolt thrower and chase down its crew. One down, two to go!

Unfortunately, this time their own Eagle Claw misses the target and Larry the Loremaster loses focus while casting a spell.

Caledor - Turn 3

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Caledorian fliers close in

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The Prince tries to decide who is going to die first

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Swordmasters are the main target of the shooting this time

Skycutter and BSB finish their chosen targets. Sisters tried to escape and draw the flying chariot away from the main force but they were caught before could go away (Edit: I fled but rolled double 1 for flee distance). Lions died to an elf before any of them could strike a blow.

This time it was for the Swordmasters to be the main target of the enemy shooting. More than half of the unit perished but it was still less than Caledorians expected as the warriors of Hoeth deflected many bolts and arrows with their great swords.

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Outcasts are slowed down in the center

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Noble sacrifice

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Triple line formation

Enemy eagle slowed down the advance of the cavalry. One squadron hunted it down while the other maneuvered around. Larry and Bob hopped between the regiments to keep the formation solid and not be exposed in case of the attack.

Outcasts formed a triple line to prevent enemy from attacking units behind the Archers, thus forcing the foe to limit their potential targets.

Larry the Loremaster managed to sneak through Shems Burning Gaze that cost life of two more Caledorian knights. Now their mage was dangerously exposed. Eagle Claw crew was again unsuccessful (Edit: Although this time they failed to wound the Griffon, I think).

Sea Guard, exploiting the arrogance of the Caledorian Prince, charged him before he managed to pick up the momentum. Brave unit captain stepped in and called out a challenge as he knew the Prince could not refuse. Caledor's Pride. The captain died in combat but the Prince and his dragon were tied in that fight. (Edit: With S4 and no re-rolls the Prince managed to get only 2 wounds total and lost combat by 1!)

Caledor - Turn 4

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Griffon joins the fight

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Tactical withdrawal

BSB swoops down to aid his Prince. He knows he does not need any help but it is a matter of getting back to the main enemy forces. Between the many attacks of both Caledorian leaders and their powerful mounts, not a single elven marine is left alive.

Frostheart phoenix is ordered to charge nearby troops in order to tie them in combat but Archers and then Lions with the Loremaster withdraw. Claedorian archers try to catch them as they do so but are not successful.

Shooting eliminates depleted regiment of Swordmasters for good. Two Dragon Princes are also unhorsed but the single Shadow Warrior and Ellyrian Reaver are strangely ignored.

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Suddenly Caledorian fliers are not that close anymore

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Another bolt thrower under attack

Shadow Warrior and Ellyrian Reaver team up again and attack bolt thrower but this time the crew holds. Another lone rider blocks enemy archers so that they are isolated and do not charge to break through.

Yet again magic proves to be a failure. At least Eagle Claw crew hits the Griffon but wounds it only slightly.

Caledor - Turn 5

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There will be no escape now

ImageLooks like the Outcasts are surrounded now

The Prince leads his warriors in another chase after the evading Outcasts. He is determined to catch them this time. The situation becomes even more complicated when Shadow Warrior dies and Ellyrian Reaver breaks from combat, panicking nearby eagle! Not only they failed to destroy bolt thrower and be in position to attack the enemy but now they were blocking the flank of enemy archers to be attacked by their companions.

Bolt thrower crew on the hill rejoiced when they spotted exposed flank of the enemy knights but failed to hit the target!

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Outcasts break through!

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Caledorians are fooled!

Outcasts have only once chance now and they are determined to get the most of it! Dragon Princes attack the Western bolt thrower and overrun out of the battle field. Swordmasters avenge Shadow Warrior and repeat the feat against middle war machine. Lone Reaver charges alone against enemy BSB and dies in combat in order to open the path for the Archers. They attack enemy shooters with Dragon Princes and destroy them in pursuit that also takes them out of the battle field.

It is clear that the Outcasts escaped the Prince and his fliers but it was not time for Larry and Bob to strike back. Bob used his magical ring to draw away magical power from the Caledorian mage. That allowed Larry to focus his energy into one, irresistible spell that hit Caledorian Prince and his mount. Unfortunately, the hits were not that powerful at all. (Edit: I rolled 6 dice for the boosted Searing Doom and was rewarded with IF. Although Darth used his scroll already. However, I got miserable double 1 for number of hits and that was evenly distributed between Prince and his Dragon). Eagle claw tried to hurt the Prince again but they missed this time.

Caledor - Turn 6

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Caledorians are forced to withdraw!

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Disengage!

With no foe to attack and the danger of being magiced or shot to death, the Prince gives the order to withdraw. His warriors follow in silence, knowing their commander is in a foul mood. He was fooled by the band of outcasts and almost killed by their Loremaster!

Outcasts - Turn 6

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Parting Shots!

Troops coming back to the battle field could not be more happy. They avoided deadly combat with the powerful foe and forced it to withdraw in disgrace. While there was no clear winner, the fact that Outcasts were not even defeated, not to mention utterly destroyed, was a surprise to many.

After-battle thoughts

When we calculated the points it was revealed that Darth got more than me but not enough to claim even the slightest victory. It was a draw that was a very good result for me for sure.

I am very happy that I moved with my army forward rather than waited for inevitable charge. Holding in the opposite corner has its advantages though. Since Darth deployed his shooters quite far away, I could limit the effect of that threat. Archers needed to march forward to get in range, bolt throwers were already on the long range and the pillars had actually blocked line of sight significantly. That is also the reason why I decided to move the characters alone (apart from being more vulnerable in combat or exploding in the case of a miscast) as they had a few nice spots to hide.

This approach is not without risk but I choose it based on my previous experience against armies with big flying monsters. They are fast and tough but it does not mean they can be everywhere at the same time and their other regiments can be beaten too. I have learned that it is important to go blow by blow. For every unit they kill I can try to get one of theirs. This creates a situation where I earn points to balance the losses.

In this particular match up the challenge is even bigger because the shooters, although fragile in combat, can inflict significant damage on their own. That is why I think it was very risky to move fast forward and try to get to those shooters while slowing down the fliers.

Slowing down one big flier is not easy, doing so against 3 is obviously even tougher. It helped a little that Darth had to keep them close to each other to limit further my small amount of ranged threats. He did well by hiding them behind the terrain but at the same time he spent one turn on that flank. I don't think it is a mistake, he got two small units there after all. But that successful bait allowed me to move the rest of the army for time being in relative safety.

I am glad the charge with Sea Guard worked out and I think Darth mentioned he didn't anticipate that. I was actually surprised I even won the combat as the main gamble was to charge and hold on Ld8 steadfast. If I failed, Darth would pursue and his dragon would be in a fantastic position to kill anything he wanted. I would not have been able to flee efficiently. Fortunately for me, 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound with no re-rolls was enough to kill the champion, to deny dragons attacks but not enough to overcome the static resolution I had (rank, banner, charge). I considered another option, i.e. shooting with everything and casting searing doom but decided not to.

I was happy how the flee move worked into my favor. I needed to gain more space between the armies and it was the best way to teleport my units to safety. Darth had to decide what to do because he anticipated that reaction (in fact, he joked I flee way too often for his liking!). Looking at it with the full benefit of a hindsight, maybe this attack was premature? My intention was to form the units in such way that there was no space to attack the second in line, too far to guarantee the charge to third one and enough ranks for the first one to be steadfast. It guaranteed that Frostheart would stay there for 2 turns of combat. Only then I realized I can use it to double flee which was far better option because I had my units in the safety and Darths regiments in wrong spot so that he had to move again to get into charging position.

The crucial was turn 5 however and I believe Darth was referring to that one in his post. The fact I made all the charges, some of them long, and moved all attacking units out of the table was what stole the last opportunity for Darth to attack with his powerful fliers. What is more, I earned quite a significant amount of points and was much closer to what Darth got by this moment. I was losing the game point wise despite the fact I kept avoiding big fights. I needed some kills to balance it out and it worked very well. And I am glad I managed to pull it out despite failed break and panic checks that lost me Shadow Warriors and made the flank charge with Archers almost impossible.

I didn't mention much about magic in this game because when playing live I don't have all the data to provide details. In general, however, I kept my dispel dice to dispel Ring of Fury and usually letting Iceshard and Curse through. Offensively, I had some low winds of magic phases at the beginning (rolling 2 and 3 for example) where I was not sure it is worth risking big searing doom yet. I failed two attempts for small searing doom on 3 dice which also ended up my magic phase.

Then the big chance came in turn 5 when I had 8 dice against 5. I rolled 2 for bound spell but got 1 and 2 and Darth dispelled that with a single dice. 6 dice on bit Searing Doom this time worked out as I got triple 6 to cast. Miscast was not bad either (got 8 and wounded my own Loremaster) but rolling double 1 for number of wounds was disappointing. It was my only chance to hurt star dragon properly and didn't quite work out. The good thing, however, is that that is still an option and if I can combine searing doom, magic missiles, bolt thrower and star lance charge then I can eventually hunt the big worm down too. Easier said than done but at least there are few things I can do to threaten it.

And threaten I did as Darth withdrew his fliers turn 6, as there was no reason to keep them in the open when they had no chance to charge anything. It was then up to Larry to cast last spell and it happened only big fireball has the range to Silver Helms. I didn't get the unit but 180 points extra for the level 2 was what saved the draw for me. As the result in the end was 810-735 for Darth.

Once again, many thanks to Darth for his hospitality and giving me yet another opportunity to play at his place!

Epilogue

Larry and Bob stood next to each other nearby ancient ruins. Majority of the regiments of the Outcasts were just coming back from hot pursuit and formed a new battle line. But there was no need and both Elven commanders were looking at the distant shapes of four big fliers becoming smaller and smaller.

"Are you sure that will work?" - asked Bob - "we didn't win after all"
"No, we didn't but they were not victorious either" - replied Larry - "The fact that band of seemingly inferior force didn't yield and even threaten to kill their commander and his dragon will be very hard pill to swallow. They will consider that a stain on their honor and they can't let anybody know that this actually happen. They will get back and this time in real force to kill us all. They will chase us to the end of the world. And this is exactly where I want them to go.
"Come, my friend" - added Larry, after a short pause - "we need to move fast"
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
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DarthSabre
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#2 Post by DarthSabre »

Prince Serien sat astride the mighty Star Dragon Seryn and surveyed the battle field.

He turned to Turin, his friend and trusted standard bearer "This is what they send against the might of Caledor? Are they serious? A bunch of outcasts from the mountains of Chrace, cast offs from the White Tower and expelled Caledorians that should be ashamed off themselves"

Turin sat astride the mighty Griffon Stormclaw and agreed. "My friend these are dark times, maybe the End of Times, how else can you explain elves attacking elves. Caledor and Aenerion would be shocked. However we must do what we must? These outcasts need to be taught a lesson and shown the full might of Caledor. Onwards my friend, let's cast aside these pheasants and await the storm that is clearly coming from the Realm of a Chaos"

With distain Serien nodded and urged Seryn to the sky "attack - show no mercy"

And with that the might of Caledor descended upon the rag tag band of outcasts.
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Galharen
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#3 Post by Galharen »

Very interesting parring, I can't wait to see the battle report.
Firstly, I thought that Darth Sabre, deployed too defensively, but with such fast units and a number of units on Swordmaster's side, it wouldn't be too hard to get in CC fast.
However, playing with such roster as Darth Sabre, it demands to use "dragon rush" style :)

Don't let us wait to long to read how it ends :)
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#4 Post by Ferny »

I will enjoy reading this one more than any other I think - you've got yourself a truly terrible match up here I think SM...I actually can't think of much worse! Hence I'm delighted to see how you tackle it.

I predict a loss but with fighting attitude and good grace, never saying never. But that isn't a helpful comment. I will read this as it is posted, but I will dissect it at leisure when I can, so as per lizards (which I'm also interested in as it mirrors so many of my MSU fights), expect blatant threadmancy.

On the lists and my thoughts on how I think I would have (crudely) deployed. There really aren't any 'soft' points in Darth's list. Archers maybe, but there's no way you can get to them without leaving yourself horribly exposed (and they're actually pretty good against our elites), so I don't think that's an option.

As such, I think target priority should be griffon BSB because it is squishy (and maybe without re-rolls you can force some sort of test on the prince/dragon and get a lucky roll there...after all, luck is in part the accumulation of dice rolls!). I think it is the bigger threat and priority (and more points) than the skycutter so should go first, subject to LoS, range etc, but the skycutter is the next easiest target. While you could take it in combat post-charge, this only works if he doesn't combo-charge with it and wipe you out, so I'd still target it at range. I don't think this will give you much opportunity to target the prince/dragon from afar though. Still, it's points!

Onto how I would deploy (ish) - I'll comment on what was actually done another time (I haven't actually looked in detail yet). I think I would bunker in a corner (opposite ideally) with my infantry, with blocks 2-deep and not leaving landing zones between them. I would accept that I will be charged at my opponents discretion, so the plan would be to be in a position to countercharge with as mcuh force as possible. Cavalry can be out centre or far flank - it is fast enough to not want to be constrained and to offer another dimention to the battlefield, possibly even giving you some more threat range. It's a terrible plan but it's the best I've got (it's made more terrible by him having decent ranged presence as well, which is nasty against your small units, especially if they're not doing what they do best, which is spreading out and moving in for the kill).
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MartinElf
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#5 Post by MartinElf »

cant wait for this report, i am finding it really difficult to get my star dragon in the right postions, and this list is fairly similar to mine, bar a few odd changes, so it will be a good learning game, from deployment, i have learnt a lot, already and something i wonder if will work, i have thought myself of deploying in a corner, then using the speed of the army to sweep across
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for your comments!

@ DarthSabre

Great stuff! I am glad we can add a little story to the game, always fun to have something like that and I would like to thank Iluvatar for his inspirational report that motivated me to add it to this game.

I will try to add an epilogue as well and I am sure you will reply to that too!

@ Galharen

I will do my best to finish the report as soon as possible. But don't want to guarantee it will be done before the end of the weekend.

I hope Darth is going to find a little time to share his thoughts on the deployment. When we were starting the game he kept saying "stick to the plan!" so I am sure it was not a coincidence he had refused flank deployment. Also, bear in mind that we knew the shape of the battle field a few days before the game so that such plan could be formulated.

As an interesting fact, Darth kept me guessing which army he is going to field as he sent me 2 lists to study :)

@ Ferny

Thanks for feedback, I appreciate that knowing you have much more important things to do now.

I am not surprised you bet on the Star Dragon victory. It has so many advantages over my army. All good points but the main problem is that these are the things Darth also knows about and it is not going to be a surprise for him! With such a great mobility he is going to move in a way that would allow him to threaten my army while keeping his more vulnerable elements in relative safety.

I don't mind thredomancy, I am looking forward to your replies whenever you have time!

@ MartinElf

I hope you will find the incoming report useful. I haven't played with Star Dragon myself so I cannot offer you advice on how to play well with it. I can, however, tell you how I perceived Darth's deployment and I think knowing what the opponent expects may be useful for your future plans.

I believe Darth deployed like that because of two reasons:
- terrain
- our previous games

Having a hill, a tower and forest in one corner is very tempting to put at least some of the shooters around it. It gives good defensive position, it is not the closest point to reach and because of the symmetry of the terrain, it may be expected I would want to do the same. Buildings are good to hide precious characters with the units even against powerful monsters.

However, even that position may be vulnerable if the enemy attacks in force. By deploying his hard hitters there Darth, in my opinion, achieved two goals. He prevented any of my attempts to attack this flank. And was also safe from my shooters if I decided to fortify my own hill. I didn't do it but you can see that I would have hard time to get in range and in doing so I would enter danger zone created by his own shooters.

In our previous games it was clear that opening flanks for my army is a mistake. Hence, I believe, Darth didn't want to go for central deployment. It was also proven many times that storming one flank of my army can be a great way to limit whatever advantage many units offer. Basically, you attack fast on one flank with overwhelming force, prevent the other half from joining the fight in time and then reform to deal with it after clearing the units you attacked as first. This particular army can do it very efficiently thanks to its speed and the fact it can do a lot of damage on a small frontage.

That is why I had to alter my initial plan of sending some units to occupy the shooters on the hill and actually deploy majority of the regiments on the other flank. I needed to put more distance between our armies. It is also something I try to do in my games, i.e. come up with more than one plan for the deployment and adapt quickly when I see what the opponent does.

As I said before, I also hope that Darth will find time to share his point of view on his game plan and the formation he used.

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#7 Post by DarthSabre »

Deployment Strategy

I have found that when playing Swordmasters MSU army the game can be won and lost in deployment. He has so many drops that usually you are deployed and he hasn't committed any significant troops. In the past this has meant that sometimes my army gets spread out too much as I try to anticipate what he will do, and that gives him the opportunity he strives for - multiple charges on unsupported units.

In this game because on the fast nature of my army, and because most of the points are tied up in those fast moving units/characters my plan was to keep the heavy hitting flyers together, try to get behind his army and in the famous words from the Gladiator "unleash hell". I was prepared to give away the low points in the archers/eagles/BT's because if I got 2 or 3 of the monsters behind his army and into his units there was no way the unit would survive and therefore if given the right circumstances I could roll through his army 1 unit at a time. He would have been stuck between getting shoot up in the front and charged from the rear. I had my plan and as Swordmaster says I tried to stick to my plan and not get caught up too much in how he was deploying.

So for this game I was extremely happy with my deployment and I really thought Swordmasters deployment actually helped me. You will have to wait and see how the game develops but I will give one small hint - there was 1 turn that I think determined the outcome of the game. It will be interesting to see if Swordmaster agrees.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#8 Post by JP_za »

Hi SM, DS

The faceless masses checking in. Yay, another report incoming. The story is a welcome addition – for those of us who don’t know, is there an over-arching story behind your army? Why are they outcasts?

This thing where there are comments from both players is really interesting, it gives a lot of insight into how important decisions are taken. So thanks to DS for contributing, would be very interested in our comments in the game once it is up.

This match-up does not look like it is going to do SM's list any favours. If you can force an IF searing doom on the dragon (or just a failed dispel I suppose) and get lucky with the hits you can hurt it but I worry that is your only tool against it. I wonder if DP on the charge couldn’t do a few wounds to finish it off, particularly the noble the magic pointy stick – of course getting the charge might be impossible. His backline can put out quite a bit of shooting with 3xRBT and 36 archers so you cannot afford to hang back too much, which might make avoiding combat difficult.

I have a question about your list – sorry I do not follow it that closely but do you think you get good value of the sisters, especially with shadow warriors as well? I can see them being useful for hellpits and other regenerating things but the 5 S4 shots don’t seem that great to me in most situations. Maybe shadow warriors instead could give extra flexibility with deployment. Also, I find from chameleon skinks that scouting 2 units is more difficult for someone to deal with – a lone team of 5 often just attracts a ton of attention and gets flattened. Which is good, but that leaves the second to cause mischief… anyway!

Eagerly awaiting the report.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi JP_za,

Yes, indeed. I wrote a story about the origins of Outcasts, here it is (with apologies to great story tellers of this forum):

Swordmaster was sitting in front of one of the many tents of the military camp a small force of High Elves raised up during yet another lonely campaign. He lost track which one it was. Or maybe he has never cared to count. Short time of relative peace was used by the warriors to check and fix their equipment. Unlike the highborn of Ulthuan, the warriors of this army had no servants to do so. They were the Outcasts. They could not afford to have camp followers. They did not need them anyway.

The camp did not remind the typical one of the High Elves force. The tents were identical, no banners indicated which house was occupying particular area, no colors or symbols adorned them either. But it was possible to set it up and disassemble it very quickly. It also served quite well as a field fortification and could withstand an assault if need be.

It was not the fist time when Swordmaster thought everything about this force was so different in comparison to any royal army of Ulthuan. And yet, they were the loyal soldiers of Asur, even if unwanted and unaccepted by the court.

He did not know how exactly this army was built, as he joined the ranks when it already existed. But according to the tales of the warriors who have served since the beginning it was due to the efforts of two individuals that the motley crew of misfits were forged into a single force at all. No one could tell what their real names were. They used some silly and crude human names to hide their identity. No one could tell if it was to spread misinformation among the enemies or … among the court. No one cared.

The official title of the army general belong the only spell caster among the force, quite eccentric archmage. But which high magic practitioner is not? Swordmaster suspected, however, that under the mask of frivolous and unstable personality there are many more layers and many more faces. The army battle standard bearer was completely different. But not in the most fashionable way, when after Tyrion and Teclis everybody wanted to have twins with characters as different as night and day. They were not brothers, were not cousins and they came from different parts of Ulthuan for sure. That warrior did not even try to be opposite or to bring the balance to any fake hierarchy the army might have. It was more about showing different aspect of the same force. They were the mind behind the idea and they managed to create that army against all odds. They managed to group together the warriors that did not fit in their regiments, in their own realms. But somehow here, away from Ulthuan, they were more at home than anywhere else. And many if not all of them finally found the group of warriors they belong to.

Swordmaster kept sharpening his kislevite sabers and observed warriors around him. Each group retained some of the armors and weapons of their parent regiments but no symbols were left. Each unit and each individual had one thing in common. They broke some rule that made them equal to criminals in the eyes of the highborn and the only way to atone for their real or imaginary sins was to join that force and pay in blood for their mistakes.

Some of his fellow Swordmasters, for example, committed a crime of questioning loremasters or, like himself, abandoning the traditional weapons and styles in favor of foreign ones which suited them far better. There were even exceptional warriors who never were accepted by the Tower but who were as skilled as any trained there. Loremasters were afraid that they do not control their inner aggression well enough and refused to train those with the stain they mistakenly attributed to their dark kindred.

There were former members of Phoenix King bodyguards who questioned orders of their superiors. They made a mistake of speaking their minds when blind obedience was expected. Their belief that true Lion should be ready to die for greater good but not necessarily to die for the sake of fulfilling the order was their undoing.

Proud knights, many of which hailed from the realm of Caledor, were exiled for the crime of letting others to join their ranks simply because they valued skill with lance more than the birthright. And their chose their true companions over stupid rules that prevented truly skilled to increase the ranks of knightly orders in the name of so called tradition.

There were archers who refused to join the ranks of spearelves, as was expected after some period of training. They argued that it is a waste of training if one spends century on honing their archery skills and then abandoning it just to follow another tradition which did not make sense.

There were former sea guards, marines without peer, who made a mistake of suggesting to their superiors that huge phalanx formations are not the only way of fighting. And that the experience gained from wars and battles conducted on ships prepared them better to operate in small maniples of flexible troops. It was called a heresy and insubordination.

There were even two small squadrons of Ellyrians, surprisingly enough as these horsemen were considered to have much more freedom than any other warriors from other parts of Ulthuan. It was possible that they alone were actually free to go wherever they wanted to and they simply chose to go and explore far beyond the plains of Ellyrion. Judging by their enthusiasm they were happy to find out there are steppes out there that might match these in their homeland.

It was unknown why two formal leaders of the army decided to form this force, although it was soon clear what it was used for. It was unknown what connections their used to be allowed to gather all the “criminals” into a single army that was not perceived as a threat to royal forces. But they did save many of the warriors and gave them a chance to fight for something they believed in.

They did not fight for the Phoenix King, as they were not allowed to come back to Ulthuan unless summoned. They were considered rebels and many princes, not knowing the purpose of creating this force, were openly hostile. But they were still loyal. And while the royal forces enjoyed a fragile state of peace on Ulthuan, the Outcasts did not wait for the enemy to appear at the gates. They were sent to look for it and destroy it before they even thought about it.


One of the challenges I face with this list (and I believe it is similar for many other players) is that I can't fit everything I would like to. When the new book was released I started using 2 x 5 Sisters and they combined very nicely with other shooting elements. Their basic role is to provide these ranged flaming attacks. They also proved very good against chaos chariots for example. I agree that single unit of 5 is not much. It may be that I would need to decide what to take in pairs, Shadow Warriors or Sisters. I like to have both units in the army but I don't have enough points simply because I had to find some to include third hero.

This army is under constant evolution so you may expect some changes in the future any way. Time will tell what these changes are going to bring in particular.

Thanks again for your feedback!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#10 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: @ Ferny
I am not surprised you bet on the Star Dragon victory. It has so many advantages over my army. All good points but the main problem is that these are the things Darth also knows about and it is not going to be a surprise for him! With such a great mobility he is going to move in a way that would allow him to threaten my army while keeping his more vulnerable elements in relative safety.
I should maybe re-phrase - given a similar opponent and a similar MSU list I felt pretty helpless and unsurprisingly lost. I shouldn't project this onto a prediction for how you will do of course, but viewing it through my eyes I find it an uphill game to play, to say the least. By contrast you actively reject my 'despair' approach and will, if you go down, go down fighting and with a plan. And that plan is what I'm super keen to see (especially if it draws or wins for you!). I actually think speaks volumes that the closest I've seen you come to making a despairing comment about a match up is this, and that as one small snippet in a completely upbeat context.
...seems to have no weaknesses for my force...
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - deployment

#11 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Ferny,

What I wanted to say is that I perfectly understand that in this particular match up money are on the Star Dragon. I totally agree that it is an uphill game for me, no matter what. I usually consider myself an underdog but against such a fast and hard hitting enemy getting any points is very tough.

You are also correct that I don't want submit to the despair mood as I believe I can still put up a fight and take it as a learning experience. If it does not work I know what to change. If it does I can see if it was something I could replicate later. Other players learn from these games too and what worked once may not be good for the second time.

As to the plan and if it worked or not, well, there is only one way to answer that, so allow me to continue with the report!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#12 Post by Ferny »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote: Sea Guard, exploiting the arrogance of the Caledorian Prince, charged him before he managed to pick up the momentum. Brave unit captain stepped in and called out a challenge as he knew the Prince could not refuse. Caledor's Pride. The captain died in combat but the Prince and his dragon were tied in that fight. (Edit: With S4 and no re-rolls the Prince managed to get only 2 wounds total and lost combat by 1!)
This was my favourite single move of the game. It reminds me a bit of a vulnerability of frosties to static res (especially if charged), where they end up being very dependent on their (random) thunderstomps...well here we see that a prince with a lance can only dish out so much damage, but we still expect him to kill the champ, and in doing so the dragon is completely neutered. You could even get lucky and cause him to flee, but even if not, he's halted for another turn. Beautiful.

I suspect it could be avoided with more careful play, although maybe the small size of the sea guard lulled him into a false sense of security - I've only used dragons a couple of times, but I think I would have been lulled, though hopefully I'd know better now. Or it could probably be tanked with the stubborn banner/bsb, but given their absence (or more widely for other games, if you can separate them in different parts of the field), it's an excellent move; and even if it is tanked (after all, the Ld test is a bonus), it still ties it up for a turn and takes the charge/over-run away.

This can be done with anything, but with the seaguard you had some ranks (and a banner?) behind you too. It's a nice example of the usefulness of having at least one unit with some halfway decent rank bonuses in an MSU army. I know we've discussed it before, whether there might be merits to a medium-large sized elite unit in an otherwise MSU environment, but actually, I see it as a more straight swap in core, where the decision to bring MSU archers/seaguard vs a larger block come down mostly, I think, to taste (and you walk somewhat the middle line with two units in 3 ranks).

And even if it could be avoided from foot troops with more careful play, imagine reavers/helms with a champ (and a standard?) - they really do have the threat range to charge and challenge and either win or draw if the dragon doesn't get to fight back. It reminds me of Curu's trick with the conga reaver champ, but you don't need to conga because vs a single model the rest of the troops are protected. And the only defence against it is to avoid the charge or to be willing to take the charge. It is another command drain on precious points, but given how you like fully kitted ellyrians for the flexibility and musicians/champs are definitely important pics for MSU units, I can see a lot of mileage for 6-man champ/st helm hit squads.

Actually, having typed all this, I wonder whether Darth was actually quite willing to take the charge rather than having made the mistake of receiving it?


Other things I think were of note, but without having thought about them much:

T1. Very exciting to see both battle-lines march forward. I had expected the Outcasts to cower in their corner, avoiding the worst of the ranged missile fire and waiting for the inevitable monster mash to hit their faces. I think that's more or less what I would have done (with infantry at least). But no, they march to their doom (or is it?!).

2. It was great to see reavers and shadow warriors doing their thing on the war machines, given the number of hellcannons/chariot war machines etc which spoil this sort of fun. Also good to see them fail on the second one, showing how unreliable they can be in this role especially when depleted (on the flip side, I wouldn't like to put money on the RBT crew winning either!). Quick rules question - can you have raiding parties composed of more than one unit?

3. Related to above, I had initially thought that Darth had let you have that flank as bait, but as the flank and centre later collapsed I wonder whether it was maybe a mistake to not anchor the flank with the archers?

4. I kept thinking "well, it doesn't matter that the big guns aren't in serious combat yet - they have 6 turns to do their thing and 20" moves, let them feed on chaff en-route, accumulating minor points (which is all MSU will give up at a time) and it will add up. But somehow, between you having moved out of arc for early charge, the seaguard move, terrain/aggressive play on your part and the triple line flee, you actually managed to wait him out the whole game. Very impressive stuff!

5. Meanwhile, you managed to use your own troops to collect points from the RBTs and archers (against which you managed to get your most favourable match ups, heavy cav to the front and ASF troops to the flank). You also nullified I think the threat from his knights with magic and threatened that unit constantly. And with the early sacrifice, the skycutter proved too slow to be a threat for the rest of the game.

So huge congratulations - I think a draw from this is a fantastic result and I'm impressed with how you got it.


Quick question for Darth...I know that the big threat against an MSU army is that they envelope you from all sides, but with a flying list I tend to deploy centrally and use the 20" march a bit like a vanguard, as a free redeploy card. It is very difficult to predict or counter from a central position. By contrast, with a refused flank you are further from his units and (with hindsight) your skycutter in particular was easily taken out of the game. Do you think your deployment worked/was a liability/was basically sound but didn't pay off/needs only tweaks etc? I agree that vs MSU games are heavily won or lost in deployment, but I think a flying list operates so differently to a slower list that the 'avoid the centre' rule is best ignored. I'd be very interested in how you feel about this - having played against SM's MSU a few times and with different lists, you're probably in a better position than most to comment!


PS I like the little bits of narrative. This hits the nail for my favoured style of reports: diagrams with supporting photos, narrative 'boxtext' in DND speak which does not impinge on the 'rule-based' narrative by which we can follow the battle more closely, and appropriate level of detail to follow the battle closely without being overwhelming.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#13 Post by vladamex »

Excellent read - thanks gents for providing us with a true spectacle (albeit a civil war one)

Agreed with others - this is a great result for the SM. He carefully waited for the opportunities and exploited them, grabbing big points in the last two turn. Also great movement of units to limit the damage caused by the enemy (incl. the noble sacrifice of the sea guard) while keeping his expensive units safe.

I feel that Darth could have done more to protect his shooting base by deploying all shooters more compactly to the left instead of spreading them out and leaving them open for the (inevitable) envelopment. Offense-wise, I feel he could have been more aggressive and try to grab more points with his heavy hitters. Fliers allow for phenomenal force concentration, and it feels like Caledorians could have done more.

But of course this is easier said than done against the "dancing" Outcasts. It would be great to hear Darth's point of view and post-game analysis.

Thanks again guys - great job!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#14 Post by JP_za »

Hi SM,
Thanks for the excellent report. Hats off on keeping three flying units away from the bulk of your army, you really are a master of positioning =D> . I think you used those pillars to great effect. Maybe it was lucky to overrun all the units off the table to keep them safe. Maybe your opponent should have split his filers between the flanks? I would have perhaps sent frosty down the other side. Although I can see that having them together is tempting as he can combine them on a target or prevent counter-charges.

What do think he should have done against your force? Pity about the wounds on the searing doom. As usual I have nothing to add to the expert tactical discussion but it was an excellent read. Also kudos for the background fluff :D
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#15 Post by Jimmy »

Another quality battle report and of course a very challenging army at face value, some would say an MSU generals nightmare with the sheer amount of thunder stomps getting about that can certainly upturn the balance in Darth Sabre's favour pretty quickly!

Turn 1

What smashed the Reavers? bolt throwers and/or Archers? It's certainly looking like a well coordinated strike from Darth early game, looks like he's learned a few valuable lessons from you in the past! I wonder if he's going to ignore the Shadow Warriors or deal with them when they're a bit closer. Second to that I'm intrigued to see how you will play on maximum disruption with them. Did you roll poorly on a single dispel attempt SM?

In your turn what was the reason for back pedaling the White Lions as opposed to marching them in safety or behind the ruins? Eagle down - brilliant.

Turn 2

Ouch on the shooting casualties! He's still not doing any reckless charges like the true Caledor spirit just yet! A very disciplined approach.

What spell did Larry go fuzzy on?

Turn 3

Darth is certainly showing good shooting discipline as well this game, picking a target and not deviating from it until it's destroyed/crippled.

I'm guessing Darth was caught off guard by the sea guard charge? Very good catch by the way.

The Triple line deployment is incredible and I can see some frustration for Darth coming up with it. Have you done this type of escape pod move in the past as I don't believe I have seen it showcased in one of your games?

Turn 4

Not much to say.

Turn 5

Wow 3 units removed in a single turn isn't a bad effort at all! Damn your magic SM, you make it look bad. :)

Turn 6

Probably the right thing to do from Darth's POV.

Conclusion - Probably one of your greatest tests yet I would think SM. Some would agree it's an uphill battle already taking Monsters fighting against Smaller units who cannot rely on steadfast to augment their capabilities so to pull a draw out you've done really well.

Magic

I want to touch on this as it seemed to do next to nothing this game. I note you didn't write down all the details and briefly touched on it in your de-brief and I have asked this in the past but after a game like this are you ever questioning your use of the Loremaster and thinking about running an Archmage instead? If so what Lore do you think would have been for maximum benefit in this match-up for example?
DarthSabre wrote: I have found that when playing Swordmasters MSU army the game can be won and lost in deployment. He has so many drops that usually you are deployed and he hasn't committed any significant troops. In the past this has meant that sometimes my army gets spread out too much as I try to anticipate what he will do, and that gives him the opportunity he strives for - multiple charges on unsupported units.
This quote is spot on and it's accuracy cannot be denied as you've only got to look at the few deployment fumbles in the last game against Hinge where SM didn't take full advantage of his shooting elements which were a huge contribution to his loss.

@Darth - If you played again would you have split your fliers up at all? Perhaps sending the Phoenix off on its down down the ('your') left flank or somewhere around the centre top of the map as we look at it on screen? I know hindsight and all of that is a great tool but having something (even an Eagle) would have been epic to have tucked in that corner to oppose SM's leap frog maneuver to get clear all of his forces out leaving your hitty elements scratching their heads. Do you think you played a bit too aggressively with GE2?

Awesome report as per usual gents - I guess the big question is when is the re-match we all wish to see?? :D
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#16 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for the comments! I am really glad to see the game was a good read for you!

@ Ferny

I talked with Darth about it and he mentioned he didn't expect that. I presume that if he did he would position the dragon differently. At the same time I think it is understandable why he moved fast forward, even with 20" fly move every turn you need to make the most of that speed.

This can be done with different units but Sea Guard (or Archers for that matter) have the advantage of being ASF and the prince does not get re-rolls. It creates a good situation where he should kill the champion so the dragon is denied its attacks but not get many points from overkill, thus making the situation more comfortable for Sea Guard. In that combat I had rank, charge and banner so even if the prince inflicted 3 wounds I was winning by musician. Because of that he needed to inflict 4 wounds which with 4 attacks hotting on 3+, no rerolls, wounding on 3+ and 6+ save is not that easy to achieve.

Interestingly, if you had Phoenix Guard in the same situation, the fact that PG champion has 4+ ward save may be a disadvantage as he can survive the attacks of the prince and be killed by the dragon, thus providing much better overkill. While PG has Ld9 it is better not to take the test at all.

6 man (elf? :)) cavalry units are great. I really like them and if not for the lack of points I would have fielded them for sure. Sometimes as darts of 2/3 wide to have more attacks at a small frontage (SH/ER in particular as they lose only steeds attacks). In the case you described having them in a single file is advantageous because you can charge immediately. Curu's trick (is it really his?) with conga line is more troublesome because you have to form that conga first (less of a problem with ER of course). And then you lose the steadfast too. Unless charging from the flank/rear, cavalry does not have the extra rank and may not have the banner.

It has the advantage of the charge threat, however, and make the the dragon more cautious. At the same time, when you charge with cavalry and issue a challenge, there is a loss of lance bonus. It depends then what you want to achieve.

I still wonder how sitting in the corner and trying to position units for counter charges would work. Yes, I could limit the impact of the shooting but bolt throwers could still thin down my lines. Then it feels like I give the choice to the fliers as what to attack. But they would fly there 3-4 turns which means I can potentially cast some spells an try to shoot at them too. None of the options, either the way I played now or the defensive approach, are a guarantee of success here.

I think you can have raiding parties like that because you can charge with more units in general, it is just about the number of models that participate.

It seems that indeed, the archers could have protected more vulnerable bolt throwers if deployed on the flank and kept at the edge instead.

The thing is that all I have done got me a draw only! :lol: While the result I would take any time, it is not a victory so I need to work harder to get better solution. It does show, however, that even with fast filers you may be too late sometimes and even with infantry, you may be fast as well.

I am of course very happy things worked this time. For me, the main lesson from such a game is that if you have a tough match up you should not throw a towel but play in a way that allows you to collect as many points as possible. Sometimes it means you have to be aggressive when the enemy expects you to castle up. Sometimes it means you have to cover your most precious units and play defensive game. I imagine it may be sometime a boring game but if I were in Darth shoes and were to face cannons at a tournament then maybe it would be better idea to hide him behind the terrain and wait for the opportunity to counter attack. Instead of charging headlong and hoping for misfire you can frustrate your opponent and do not give them points.

I am glad you like the narrative style. It is the part I am not comfortable with so I try to keep them short. I often prefer to write something ironic as I did with Archie and his way of exploding too often!

@ vladamex

Thanks! I am glad you liked the report and I hope Darth will find some more time to add to the comments in due time as well!

I wonder, for example, how terrain affected his deployment (shooting base in particular) and how it was dependent on the fact that he may have assumed I would choose defensive play.

I am fully aware I was lucky to have these T5 charges hit home as they saved my army. Also, as I have mentioned before, the draw is a good result against faster and much harder hitting foe but it is not a victory so I have to come up with even better plan and game in the future! It was a very important learning experience for me and I believe it will help me against similar armies. As always, however, I will have a tough game for sure.

@ JP

Thanks for your kind words! I am happy it worked this time but I am sure that if we were to play a re-match, Darth would not let me to avoid his fliers again! Still, great to know it can work.

I agree about the pillars. They didn't look like they are important part of the terrain but provided enough opportunities to use in the game to make a significant difference.

Please, don't think you have nothing to add. There is always a room for discussion, no matter how experienced the player is. Feel free to post your own suggestions and we can all talk about them.

I have never played with Star Dragon so I don't know how to use it well. However, I can tell you what I wanted to avoid in this game so that it may help to come up with a plan that would work against my army.

If my units were charged in a way that I would not be able to counter charge any of the big fliers then I am losing the war of attrition in no time. If 3-4 flying units charged at the same time then it is the case more often than not. As majority of my troops are infantry based, thunder stomps alone may be enough to do the job. Imagine the situation, where dragon, griffon and frosty charge 3 separate units the same turn. It is very hard to counter charge in that situation, I may expose flanks to shooting and even then I may simply delay the inevitable. They are safe in combat and my main threats are spells and bolt thrower.

Another threat is when I am charged by 2-3 fliers at the same time but against a single unit. If BSB and Prince are in the same combat one can accept the challenge when the other does the killing. In fact, it is ideal situation because BSB accepts the challenge and gets maximum CR due to griffon having ASF. And Prince and Star Dragon do the damage to the unit to prevent it being steadfast. No unit in my army has a chance to survive that and with proper positioning it would be very hard to avoid overruns.

Thanks for kind words about short stories!

@ Jimmy

There is no doubt that such pairing favors the Star Dragon! But is not a reason to throw a towel, blame the match up and do nothing to fight back!

T1 bolt thrower shot was very well aimed and despite long range the hits wounded without a single fail. Good dice rolling skills I guess!

In terms of dispels I let both spells through and simply used the dice to get rid of the ring.

I could not move the Lions over the ruins as it was impassable terrain so I decided it is better idea to move them back and make the chances for successful charges smaller. That is why Darth chose to move T2 again and use breath weapon instead. What I think I could have done, however, is to move forward with Lions and form them in such way that all the fliers would be in their front arc but with no space to land due to ruins. If possible with the move allowance they had of course.

I think Larry lost focus on small searing doom on 3 dice.

The sea guard charge was an option I considered when Star Dragon landed close to them. I didn't expect it but when the opportunity presents itself one needs to consider it. I decided it is better option than shooting and magic at this stage of the game.

If I were to give credit for triple line deployment I would thank Hinge. In our game he showed how powerful it can be to deny charges to the enemy with double flee through your own units and how great it it as at teleporting your regiments to safety. Again, I spotted the opportunity to do so during the game. Darth anticipated my move (i.e. flee reaction) and even said he would have been very surprised if I hadn't done so! Apparently, I do a lot of fleeing with my units :)

I am very happy it worked because it bought me a lot of time to avoid the fliers but at the same time positioned my regiments in a good spot to provide support for the attack against fire base.

It felt good to get some points in a single turn and while I rolled double 1's for the number of hits for searing doom it was worthy to do so to make Darth a little bit worried :)

I agree, that is a tough game for me and even if I like to think I learned a little how to put up a fight it does not mean it is going to be any easier next time!

I like Loremaster a lot because his great spells selection makes him very flexible. I usually try to cast around 3 spells per turn but obviously it depends a lot on winds of magic. I have never felt like I need the Archmage but it does not mean I didn't think about getting back to level 4 just to try something new, knowing that the Loremaster is very good addition the army.

I would like to add that I may adopt your way of making notes on magic phases so that I can show in more detail what happened. As it is now, I can only show which spells went through which may create an illusion that not much happened.

If I were to try something new I would go for Light magic. It was suggested long time ago it may be good option. I wanted to use High Magic back then and I am still worried Light Magic might not be that helpful in the anti-armor department. However, it seems to be more useful now, since our elites lost their re-rolls.

The way I see it, however, is that any option is good for the army, each with its advantages and disadvantages. What you gain by selecting one you may lose by not choosing another. I am afraid it is going to be like that no matter what so it is more about choosing your own personal preference.

What I like about Light magic, however, is that it adds attacks to elites helping them to overcome lack of re-rolls. WS10 and I10 is great for them too. Bubble versions of the spells seems to be tailored for MSU style. And in general, the spells selection seems to be flexible enough to make use of any 4 you happen to get that particular game.

I also wonder if Heavens can be applied but I haven't given too much thought to it yet.

Thanks again for the great feedback everyone!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#17 Post by Galharen »

What a great battle there!
Congrats to you, Swordmaster, as you've achieved much more than Darth Sabre. His list and task was to push, but he didn't do it right.
Turn 2 was crucial, because Darth Sabre lost the mementum and speed with his monsters and let to get his bolt throwers charged.

None of swordmaster's unit can hold star dragon or frost heart alone, so in my opinion those monsters had to be played more aggresively. Star dragon can be easily placed so that it is charged, but he will most likely win the combat with desireable move on his turn which is following.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#18 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Galharen,

Thanks! I am glad you enjoyed the report. I asked Darth to add some more comments from his point of view on what worked and what didn't in the context of his initial plan and hopefully he will find some time to do so.

In the meantime, could you elaborate more on what do you think he should have done differently?

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#19 Post by Curu Olannon »

Interesting game. From Darth`s point of view, the following turn was where he had the opportunity to take control of the center (crucial to preventing Swordmaster taking his backfield):

Image

Basically at this point the Star Dragon, BSB and Frostheart can all fly to the center of the map. Given the tight positions of Swordmaster`s units, it will be impossible to escape save for mass fleeing (and even then it`s really hairy). The clue, given the lack of BOTWD, is to place the Frostheart in front (blocking the Swordmasters). It cannot be challenged and with BSB/Prince nearby it will hold for sure. Furthermore an enemy is likely to lose steadfast, meaning a charge potentially gives it a free reform prior to a T4 charge. Disastrous. It`s almost equally disastrous to leave it alone, but that`s the nature of the matchup.

What happened instead was that the monsters spent too long focusing on the weaker elements that were dispersed along the backfield, too far away from the middle. This allowed the MSU force to break through, despite the Eagle block, and claim significant points while dodging the monsters. I believe that simply landing the flyers in the middle T3 would`ve been decisive enough to give Darth a solid win here.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#20 Post by Galharen »

Curu Olannon wrote:Interesting game. From Darth`s point of view, the following turn was where he had the opportunity to take control of the center (crucial to preventing Swordmaster taking his backfield):

Image

Basically at this point the Star Dragon, BSB and Frostheart can all fly to the center of the map. Given the tight positions of Swordmaster`s units, it will be impossible to escape save for mass fleeing (and even then it`s really hairy). The clue, given the lack of BOTWD, is to place the Frostheart in front (blocking the Swordmasters). It cannot be challenged and with BSB/Prince nearby it will hold for sure. Furthermore an enemy is likely to lose steadfast, meaning a charge potentially gives it a free reform prior to a T4 charge. Disastrous. It`s almost equally disastrous to leave it alone, but that`s the nature of the matchup.

What happened instead was that the monsters spent too long focusing on the weaker elements that were dispersed along the backfield, too far away from the middle. This allowed the MSU force to break through, despite the Eagle block, and claim significant points while dodging the monsters. I believe that simply landing the flyers in the middle T3 would`ve been decisive enough to give Darth a solid win here.
This is what I meant, it was perfect moment to push and make some pressure on msu units. But they managed to escape :)
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#21 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Galharen,

Please, take a moment and look at the following map:

Image

"Red" skulls indicate the range for Frostheart and "Blue" skulls correspond to the range of flight for Star Dragon. Where axactly would you position all 3 fliers and where would they face?

Also, what about Silver Helms? If unchecked, Lions could potentially attack the knights and even with ASF they are only WS4 and S3 and it is possible that the only spellcaster would be in danger.

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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#22 Post by Curu Olannon »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:Hi Galharen,

Please, take a moment and look at the following map:

Image

"Red" skulls indicate the range for Frostheart and "Blue" skulls correspond to the range of flight for Star Dragon. Where axactly would you position all 3 fliers and where would they face?

Also, what about Silver Helms? If unchecked, Lions could potentially attack the knights and even with ASF they are only WS4 and S3 and it is possible that the only spellcaster would be in danger.

Cheers!
I don`t know about Galharen, but I would place the Frostheart directly in front of the Swordmasters, facing North-East. This gives the Swordmasters a flank-charge, but it`s super risky still for them to charge seeing as they need 6s and the BSB is there. The Dragon behind, facing the same way. Specifics are hard but it should be doable without offering charges on it. BSB nearby. Helms between ruins and tower, out of WL arc. Eagle blocks 2 cav units. Archers to the East back up, Archers to the West stand still.

The entire point is to deny the blue army an opportunity to push through between the 2 northern towards. Furthermore it`s impossible to escape all the monsters, so next turn 2+ units are engaged and there is no space left for blue to reach red`s back line, with the exception of the units who already killed an RBT.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#23 Post by Galharen »

I would move frosty in front of the archers with loremaster facing north and star dragon between tower and ruins facing north-east.
Even if archers charge frosty, there is a little chance for breaking it because of TS and loremaster can't cast missiles then. If not, both dragon and frosty have a free way to counter MSU army advancement.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#24 Post by Curu Olannon »

Galharen wrote:I would move frosty in front of the archers with loremaster facing north and star dragon between tower and ruins facing north-east.
Even if archers charge frosty, there is a little chance for breaking it because of TS and loremaster can't cast missiles then. If not, both dragon and frosty have a free way to counter MSU army advancement.
Interesting development. The question is whether the frostheart can successfully block all charges to the Star Dragon (else it will be stuck in combat) while also keeping the area above the ruin safe for the Helms (where else will they go?). At the same time, I`m wondering if the SD/Frost will be too far away from juicy targets next turn. You could sacrifice the Eagle to keep DPs locked (to a degree), but in doing so you`re also out of options for later turns with the monsters being a bit too far away for my liking.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#25 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Galharen,

I am creating a diagram so that we have the reference but I need to know what is your plan for BSB and SH.

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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#26 Post by Galharen »

I'll show you what I mean when I will be home after work :)
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#27 Post by Curu Olannon »

Here`s my suggestion:

Image

Fine-tuning angles etc is impossible to do without actually being on the table with the models, but it shows the general concept well enough. No units can charge into favourable combats and it`s impossible to dodge the flyers next turn. The back line is secured, mage is out of trouble, combo-charges aplenty. The skycutter can deal with the annoying units in the corner.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#28 Post by Iluvatar »

Interesting discussion there! :D
Swordmaster, thanks for the report! The fluff intro/conclusion are a nice addition. I'll try to come back later with more comments, but I believe the current discussion is really worth following!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#29 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

@ Galharen

Still waiting for your ideas so I can add new diagram and continue with discussion!

@ Iluvatar

Looking forward to your comments at any time you are ready to provide them. :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Star Dragon - 12.09

#30 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings,

I hoped Galharen would find little more time to suggest how would he move remaining regiments but unfortunately he is busy at the moment. I will try to address his alternative Frostheart and Star Dragon positioning then but please bear in mind it is just a vague assessment. The positioning of BSB and Silver Helms is important to the whole picture here. However, I hope the discussion would be continued and I am sure Galharen would add missing pieces of information as soon as his other duties are addressed! Thanks a lot for the feedback you have provided so far!

This is the diagram I prepared just for the sake of discussion and to serve as a reference point:

Image

In this situation I would probably do the following:

- move Loremaster to join Sea Guard and look for the opportunity to cast searing doom at star dragon
- move BSB to join the Archers, probably reform them to face towards the center too as well as being out of sight of the dragon
- pull back WL1 in such a way that the charge of the dragon would see them fleeing through the tower and to the safety
- reform S2 to face the dragon, if he charges I take it and challenge then counter with Lions, I may lose those units but it would take some time to chew through them and I have a chance to wound the dragon.
- position eagle and reaver in a queue so that if frostheart decided to charge I flee and catapult Swordmasters through two units and the ruins to safety.
- reform DP2 into single line and move them back so that they face towards the center but their flank is protected by the tower and could not be shot at by bolt throwers
- I assume eagle would land to block cavalry so DP1 would charge it anyway. Might overrun too, it would depend on the relative positions of the units
- S1 would move away from Frosty probably but I would try to use them to slow down the advance of the enemy and inflict some wounds on the attacker

This is not a perfect solution but would allow me to create difficult decisions to my opponent as charges bring his units to the center of the field where they are more vulnerable to magic and shooting while not all the attacks would result in contact. At the same time my units would flee to safety and deny good targets for shooting while the regiments would be in position to counter charge or to move over the Northern part of the battle field too.

Cheers!
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