HE MSU - 2500 vs Lizardmen - 31.08

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Greetings!

The battle defying the limitations of time and space was fought between Outcasts and Lizardmen led by US Master player, Hinge himself! It was a great honor for me to be challenged to the personal duel and we have already discussed some details of the upcoming game in my army blog. Forgive me then, that I simply copy paste the army lists and some of my initial thoughts on the army I was about to face.

Lizardmen - Army List

Slann Mage-Priest, General, Level 4, Channeling Staff, Focus of Mystery, The Harmonic Convergence - Lore of High Magic
Saurus Oldblood, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Scaly Skin, Cold One, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard
Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll - Lore of Heavens
Saurus Scar-Veteran BSB, Great Weapon, Cold One, Armour of Destiny
Saurus Scar-Veteran , Cold One, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon
Skink Chief, Terradon, Relic Sword, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, The Egg of Quango

23 Saurus Warriors , Shields, Full Command

10 Skinks Cohort, Javelin, Shield, Standard, Musician
10 Skinks Cohort, Javelin, Shield, Standard, Musician
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield

5 Chameleon Skinks
5 Chameleon Skinks

3 Terradon Riders

Salamander Hunting Pack
Salamander Hunting Pack

6 Cold One Riders, Musician, Standard

2 Jungle Swarm

Slann Mage-Priest, General, Level 4, Channeling Staff, Focus of Mystery, The Harmonic Convergence - Lore of High Magic

Slann Mage-Priests are among the best wizards in the game. This particular one is going to be very efficient with channeling as he will have 3 attempts to do so per phase and +1 to all of them. That means Hinge will roll 3 dice and on 5+ he will channel. I need to assume that Slann will have an advantage in casting and it will be very difficult to get spells through. On top of that he knows all the spells from High Magic. That is huge.

Drain magic will be very useful to get rid of any augments and hexes I might be lucky to get through. With extra dice in his own magic phase it will be quite a possibility.

Soul Quench is very annoying spell against my small regiments. As they are lightly armored S4 is actually deadly. Even boosted version is not that difficult to cast for the Slann. The only hope is that short range will make it less useful. However, I need to remember that it can also be cast through skink priest as a vessel. Because it can be used as such in 24" it gives a fantastic opportunity for the Slann to stay away from trouble and have an effective range of 42"!

Aphotesosis will be very helpful to keep the other characters alive. Mighty as they are they still can be hurt but healing them to the full number of wounds is going to be very handy.

Hand of Glory is another subtle spell. It looks like Hinge might not need it that much but since we are going to play the game of movement, making his regiments faster will be helpful for sure. The same goes for WS and BS, where the small bonuses may start to stack with the influence of other spells.

Walk Between Worlds is a spell I would love to have myself. Even better than Hand of Glory for movement purposes. Allows to reposition regiment further and hopefully catch the enemy unguarded. Making the unit ethereal is also a good protection in itself.

Tempest is probably the least used spell of the lore but I expect that this template may affect my army in indirect way. For example, units are not allowed to move through it so it can be used as movement restriction too.

Arcane Unforging is perfect spell to fight these Chaos Sorcerers but against my army there might be fewer targets. Nevertheless, taking away wounds from my fragile characters is going to help anyway and if they start losing their few precious items - the better! For Hinge of course

Fiery Convocation may not be that useful on my regiments but I expect it may be cast at the beginning just to draw some dice either in the turn of casting or later. If it goes through I will lose a unit very quickly. I may not lose many in one go (although the odds are against me with S4) but the casualties will be more meaningful.

Then the lore attribute will allow to shuffle that amazing pool of spells further, making it quite difficult to predict what the dangers due to magic phase will be present the following turn.

I think the Slann will start the game with Saurus Warriors but if the situation permits, he can as easily start wondering on his own and let the Saurus carry the war to the enemy, led by their stalwart Veterans. It would protect the Slann indirectly but would allow to put more pressure on my units.

It will be very hard to get to that Slann as there are too many regiments in between. And if he stays with Warriors it will be even harder. But I will need to try or find the opportunity to do so as his magic can be very powerful indeed.

Saurus Oldblood, Great Weapon, Light Armour, Scaly Skin, Cold One, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster's Shard

Scar Veterans are mean but this guy is the meanest of them all. With 1+ armor save and 4++ ward as well as T5 he is very hard to kill. With 5A and Predatory Fighter rule he is going to kill a lot all by himself. His WS6 may not be that high but against majority of units it is enough. His S7 is an overkill against my army though He is fully capable of taking on some units on his own too.

I expect him to start the game in one of the Saurus regiments but I am sure Hinge will always be looking for an opportunity to use him solo. Or with other Veterans. Magic may help to get rid of that guy but it will be very difficult even if I manage to get through the Slann's defenses. He may lose a wound or two in combat but again, that is not something I can count on.


Skink Priest, Dispel Scroll - Lore of Heavens

Very, very helpful character. His main role, in my opinion, is to extend the range for spells for the Slann and keep big toad safer. With so many skinks around he will have enough protection and will be able to jump from one unit to another if needed. His Dispel Scroll is very handy but I am not sure if Hinge is going to need it! On top of that Lore of Heavens is very good too. Although I don't think Hinge will take comet or chain lightning for him, even if he rolls it. Iceshard Blizzard is very useful spell anyway.

If the opportunity presents itself I would try to get him because it will limit the area Slann can affect the battle field with his spells.

[Saurus Scar-Veteran BSB, Great Weapon, Cold One, Armour of Destiny
Saurus Scar-Veteran , Cold One, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon

The other two of the three amigos! BSB is again very well protected, 1+ armor save and 4++ ward. Isn't it amazing how these tough guys can be made even tougher? They already have T5 to start with but no, they have to have 1+/4++ saves to keep them "safe" With two Saurus leaders sporting S7 and one with magical attacks, S5 and armor piercing, they present quite a flexible range of close combat prowess. Second Veteran does not have ward saves but he still has respectable 1+ save that can be re-rolled. I am not sure which one is worse. On top of that he has 2++ against fire. Which is amazing against certain spells

From my experience I can say that I am capable of dealing with any of these alone. But if they decide to come at me together or even in pairs, I will be in big trouble. In fact, I expect their respective units to be delivery system and even if they die on their way I will be hard pressed by these guys alone.

Skink Chief, Terradon, Relic Sword, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, The Egg of Quango

As if I didn't have enough trouble I have to deal with this guy too! Relic Sword will not matter much against my army. He has 3+ armor save if I calculated correctly and will be hard to knock him down with magic missiles because of his Dragonbane Gem. But the biggest threat is his Egg. I lost full unit of Lions to that damn item!

He can also vanguard and timely walk between worlds will help him to be where he needs to be - behind my lines. I expect he will use terrain to sneak around or his fellow terradon riders to get some extra penalties to hit. And just for fun it will drop a rock on my head too

23 Saurus Warriors , Shields, Full Command

Anvil of the army but even with just one Scar Veteran they can be very dangerous. Well, in fact I lost to the unit like that without veterans in it too! My first impression was that they would serve as Slann bodyguards. But the more I think about it the more I am convinced it does not have to be the case.

Hinge has a great option to keep one cohort at the back and move Slann only when needed, using priest as a vessel and Saurus Warriors with any of the Amigos aggressively. The good thing is that there is only one unit of them.

They are not invincible but are very resilient and require to be isolated and attacked by few units of my own. It will be very, very difficult!

10 Skinks Cohort, Javelin, Shield, Standard, Musician
10 Skinks Cohort, Javelin, Shield, Standard, Musician

Banner bearers for the Blood and Glory, fast although less mobile than skirmishers. They don't have the same effective range for shooting either. Shield and scaly skin are quite good against S3 attacks. No penalty for moving and shooting is a bonus. They are there to serve multiple roles. Apart from banners for scenario I mentioned, they can be used as additional redirectors. They can be small bodyguard units for wizards. They can even disrupt the flanks against small units if unchecked and given the opportunity.

Good, cheap, annoying

10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield
10 Skinks Skirmishers, Javelin, Shield

3 clouds of skink skirmishers will be there to take away a few wounds from lightly armored infantry, slow down the advance, redirect and be even more annoying than cohorts. In theory, can be panicked but it will depend on the position of the Slann and Saurus leaders.

Again, javelins have the advantage of no penalty for movement, making their effective range very good. The thing is they need to be close to actually use them. Range is 12" which will probably be more like 10" away to allow second rank to shoot. And that can bring them into the charge range of my troops.

5 Chameleon Skinks
5 Chameleon Skinks

These guys are more efficient than regular skinks due to blowpipes and better BS. Potentially improved by Hand of Glory. They are always a priority for magic missiles as they are really hard to hit.

3 Terradon Riders

Some more annoying skinks! This time flying ones! They can be very helpful in war machine hunting, will provide protection for the chief if needed, will drop some rocks for good measure and if they die nobody cares anyway! Yet, as many of these skirmishers, they cannot be ignored.

Salamander Hunting Pack
Salamander Hunting Pack

Now these guys provide more serious damage output. Flame template it perfect against MSU army with T3 and 5+ armor save across the board. It is somewhat mitigated by the shorter range but they will get there shortly. What is interesting is that single salamander packs can actually be very good redirectors and additional units to block unwanted charges. They are also expendable. And not that easy to deal with as they might not be easy to reach.

It is some kind of a pattern here. Small, expendable units but with additional skills that make them dangerous enough not to be ignored. Win-win situation for Hinge. If they attract attention, they divert it from big guys. If they are ignored, they will be even more annoying and add to the number of casualties suffered.

6 Cold One Riders, Musician, Standard

Hammer unit. Excellent line breaker, with or without characters. I expect BSB to join them or be nearby simply to avoid unnecessary stupidity test failures. They are very good at grinding the enemy too since each model has 4 attacks. Prime target for Searing Doom!

If they charge the elite infantry I will be able to take some with me but I don't have high hopes in one-on-one combats against these guys. Flank charge from Dragon Princes would be ideal but I don't think I will be offered such an opportunity

2 Jungle Swarm

I hear that Hinge took these because he didn't want to paint any more skinks! They are still very useful and as many other regiments, cannot be ignored. The good thing is that Swarms crumble in combat. The bad thing is they have many attacks per base.

Overall I think it is a very, very tough army for me to take on. It has huge built in flexibility, with characters and regiments able to perform multiple roles so it will be hard to predict what they are going to do next.

On one hand the army can advance aggressively to use its shooting potential, that is significant but the regiments have short range. On the other, the army can as well sit back and try to use magic and Salamanders to convince me to come to them if I want to grab some points.

I think Hinge will not be defensive but at the same time he told me his army is not earning points early. That means he will spend time positioning regiments carefully and move them around to get the advantage.

He has 11 deployment drops + characters + 2 scouting units meaning I am at no advantage as to the deployment. He has 10 support units (2 cohorts + 3 skink clouds + 2 chameleon + terradons + 2 salamanders + swarms) and all of them can do damage at range. The are not great in combat so there might be a chance that my own regiments could take on them close and personal but there as well might be a lot of fleeing to put my units in vulnerable positions for counter attacks.

The large amount of support is perfectly balanced by the 2 hard hitting regiments and powerful characters. Three amigos can do a lot of damage all by themselves but flying chief is a danger in his own too. On top of that I will be at huge magic disadvantage.

I perceive my strengths in the following areas:

1. Combat against support troops
2. Better range for the shooters
3. Initial advantage in magic missiles (unless Hinge is going to roll and keep chain lightning )

I am definitely weaker in:

1. Magic in long term
2. Combat with big guys (2 saurus units + 3 amigos)

I think I will need a disciplined battle line that allows for movement but without leaving openings to back door and presenting constant threat of being charged for support elements of LM army. I still don't know if Hinge is going to keep his units relatively close together or is he going to form two battle groups around both Saurus regiments. He can do both and both approaches will be viable.

I took 2500 version of the list I took a few times recently.

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster, Earthing Rod, Dragon Helm, Talisman of Endurance
Bob the BSB, Dragon Armor, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ring of Fury
Nasher the Noble, Dragon Armor, Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster Shard

18 Archers, Full Command
15 Sea Guard, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician
12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard of Discipline
10 White Lions, Musician, Gleaming Pennant
5 Shadow Warriors

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle
5 Sisters of Avelorn

We quickly moved to the deployment phase as only Skink Priest had to choose his spell and Hinge opted to take Iceshard Blizzard

Hinge won the roll off and he chose South to deploy his army.

Deployment


Deployment after Vanguard moves

Deployment order was (I won the roll off so I started):
Reavers, Skinks, Reavers, Cohort, Sea guard, Swarms, Eagle, Skinks, Archers, Skinks, SM, Salamander, SM, Saurus, Lions, Salamander, Lions, Cold Ones, Sisters, Cohort, Eagle Claw, Terradons, Princes with the banner, Lizardmen Characters, Rest of HE army.

Hinge won the roll off to deploy scouts and he put the first unit close to the rocks. I chose to deploy Shadow Warriors next to eagle claw. Second chameleons were then positioned in the open. Hinge decided not to vanguard and I moved reavers to the left to get protection of the forest and to the back, near the hill and move away from chameleons.

With +1 for deploying first, Hinge seized the initiative and claimed first turn.

Lizardmen - Turn 1


Stegadon formation on the go!

Obeying the order of the Slann, Old Blood leads his army and he leads by example, from the first rank. It is the Slann, however, who draws the first blood. Larry the Loremaster feels the mind of the superior wizard very well but he does what he can to limit the impact of the powerful spells anyway. Larry focuses on dispelling a single spell as it gives him the best chance to prevent that instead of dispersing his efforts. Sensing that the Slann tries to teleport his Chameleons into a position to attack Eagle Claw he stops it. Unfortunately, the Slann is free to cast Tempest on the Sea Guard and a few brave marines die. Then, he enhances the shooting abilities of the Chameleons who kill few more sea guards. Depleted unit holds bravely.

Turn details

I decided to add a few details to the story line from the point of view of the game itself as I had the opportunity to save all the rolls during the game (UB advantage over real games!). I will add these for magic as I think it is interesting to see how that phase worked for both of us.

Winds of Magic: 3,8
Channels: Slann 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 9-5

Spells:

Walk Between Worlds: 3,4,5 --> Dispelled: 2,5,5,6,6
Tempest: 2,2,5,6 --> Changed to the Wyssan's Wildform via Lore Attribute
Hand of Glory --> 4 --> BS + d3 = BS6 chameleons

Outcasts - Turn 1


Elves strike back with magic too

Seeing that the enemy is almost entirely deployed on a single flank Elven army speeds up to close the gap and attack the lizardmen from the side. Depleted Sea Guard charges nearby Chameleons but their accurate fire kills some more Elven marines and they decided to withdraw, take the fallen with them and regroup. Reavers charge in instead but the Chameleons are long gone (Edit: I tried to redirect into second unit but failed the test to do so)

Larry the Loremaster is determined to fight back and this time he adopts the multiple small spells tactics. He first casts Burning Gaze on the unit of skinks protecting the priest, incinerates 4 of them and the rest takes away their leader to safety. That confuses the hunting pack nearby that withdraws deep into the jungle. Iceshard blizzard engulfs retreating chameleons but it might not be enough to undermine their resolve due to presence of the Slann. Another unit of Chameleons founds itself among strange shadows but Slann does not let it be. That distraction, however, allows Larry to cast a Fireball at another Skink cloud but it seems that his resources were spent and only two skirmishers died.

Turn details

Winds of Magic: 4,5
Channeling: Larry - 1, Slann - 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 10-6

Burning Gaze: 5,6 --> no dispel attempt --> d6 = 5
Iceshard Blizzard: 2,4 --> no dispel attempt
Miasma on Chameleons: 2,4,5 --> dispelled: 1,3,5,5
Medium Fire Ball: 5,5,6 --> dispel attempt: 2,3 --> 2d6 = 1,4

Lizardmen - Turn 2


Lizardmen keep pressing on the right flank

Lizardmen troops keep pressing forward while the light cohorts guard the left flank. Terradons, fast on their own, move even faster on the wings of a spell and use that extra movement to drop rocks on Shadow Warriors who stood no chance to survive that bombardment. Their untimely end shocked nearby Eagle Claw crew that they froze and stopped attending their powerful war machine.

Larry could only watch as the spell was cast with irresistible force and even the magical feedback didn't disturb the coldblooded peace Slann was in. His vessel, skink priest was hurt though. Larry was determined to fight back in dispelled another spell casting attempt with perfect execution.

Turn details

Winds of Magic: 3,3
Channeling: Slann - 2, Priest - 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 9-3

Walk Between Worlds: 2,6,6,6 --> Miscast Result: 3,5 --> Slann: 1 to wound, Priest: 6 to wound, 1 power dice lost
Unforging: 3,3,5,5 --> dispelled: 6,6,6

Outcasts - Turn 2


Elven attempt to stall Lizardmen advance

With enemy in range Nasher decided to charge alone and hopefully kill enemy hero before he would start killing his knights. It was a noble sacrifice but he was more than willing to do so. Only his magical lance could assure that the thick armor is penetrated and coldblooded heart pierced. Unfortunately, the steed was shaken by the presence of the nearby terradons and the attack failed.

Reavers charged the nearby Skinks too, easily destroying many lizardmen skirmishers but the remaining few obeyed the orders of the Slann and kept fighting.

Larry tried to get any of his spells through but this time he could not breach Slann's defenses. Archers and Sisters, still at a very bad position, shot at the only available target, the Skinks, and this time managed to panic them. However, they didn't run too far yet.

Turn details

Nasher charge distance: 17", charge roll: 1,2,3
Reaver charge distance: 10", auto

Winds of Magic: 1,6
Channeling: Slann - 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 7-7

Burning Gaze: 2,4 --> Dispelled: 5,6
Spirit Leach: 1,4,6 --> Dispelled: 3,4,6,6
Ring of Fury: 3
Miasma: 3 --> Dispelled: 5

Lizardmen - Turn 3


Lizardmen attack!

Terradons fly over Dragon Princes and attack Eagle Claw. The crew fights bravely but they are overwhelmed and flying lizards overrun into a flank of a now exposed Sea Guard. That opens the clear path for Cold Ones who attack Dragon Princes. The elven knights have to stand and fight and all die soon but not before one of the Lizards is killed too. The Cold Ones keep up the momentum to carry them out of the possible flank charge of the Elven Noble who helplessly watched the destruction of his companions.

Seeing that Terradons did their job, Old One turned his gaze towards the Elven Wizard-General and charged but it seems the forest slowed him down as his mount was not used to navigate between the trees that were not seen in the jungles of Lustria.

But the unit bodyguarding the Loremaster was not safe. He tried hard to deflect the spell Slann directed at them but failed and the unit burst into fire. Only a handful Swormdasters survived but they held fast.

Turn details

Terradons charge: auto
Cold Ones charge distance: 13" (?), Charge roll: 3,3,5
Old Blood charge distance: 18", Charge roll: 1,3,4

Winds of Magic: 1,5
Channeling: Slann - 2
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 8-5

Wildform on CO: 2,4,6 --> No dispel attempt
Fiery Convocation: 2,4,4,5,5 --> Dispel attempt: 1,2,4,5,6

Outcasts - Turn 3


Elves counter attack!

Elves were hard pressed but decided to carry the fight to the enemy. Dragon Princes and White Lions trampled the swarm of jungle lizards and overrun dangerously close to the main combat block of the Lizardmen army. At the same time another unit of Lions cleared out some pesky Chameleons and reformed to block the passage for the Old Blood.

Unfortunately, Sea Guard could not hold against flanking terradons and this time fled for good. Larry the Loremaster fought another mental duel but somehow, trying to scan for the more fragile mind of the skink chief, he lost the concentration and Elven magic yet again proved to be ineffective. What is more, his lack of focus prevented him from dispelling the Fiery Convocation still burning the Swordmasters. (Edit: I would like to thank Hing here for reminding me I could still use my power dice to dispel the spell, I wanted to move on without even trying. Thanks, Hinge! )

Turn details

Winds of Magic: 4,5
Channeling: None
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 9-5

Ring of Fury: 4 --> Dispelled by the priest: 4
Spirit Leach (boosted) --> 1,3,3 --> failed
Fiery Convocation --> dispelling attempt: 1,1,2,5,5

Lizardmen - Turn 4


Lizardmen form protective circle around the Saurus block and Slann with his cohort

Lizardmen consolidated their formation in order to protect the Saurus block with their BSB as well as cohort with the Slann. Old Blood was determined to carry the fight to the enemy and attacked White Lions. Chracians stood bravely and even wounded the Old Blood once but had to pay the price. Six of them died in that combat.

It was clear Elves wound counter but who would emerge victorious from that round?

Turn details

Winds of Magic: 3,6
Channeling: Slann - 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 10-6

Soul Quench: 1,3,6 --> No dispel attempt --> 2d6 = 2,5
Wildform: 6,6 --> Miscast result: 3,4 --> 1 power dice lost
Fiery Convocation: 2,3,3,3 --> Cast attempt failed

Outcasts - Turn 4


Chain reaction of charges, retreats and redirects!

It was be or not to be for Elven army. They had to take the fight to the enemy. Dragon Princes tried to reach enemy units but the fast skinks were hard to catch, especially that they used the bigger Saurus as a protection.

Terradons outpaced great eagle and reavers (barely), transporting themselves from one corner of the battle field to another. Finally, Larry and Bob led the Swordmasters to charge Old Blood and hopefully relieve the White Lions.

They needed some magic support to do so and Larry did what he could. Unfortunately, one of the spells backfired and killed 4 lions and 5 Swordmasters. Before Larry got back to his feet, lone Blademaster took on the Old Blood to buy little time for his companions to re-dress the ranks. Larry managed to cast miasma on Old Blood to help him further but Blademaster paid ultimate price anyway.

Turn details

Charges order and reactions:

Dragon Princes at Salamander (flee) --> redirect at Chief (flee)
2 Swordmasters at the flank of the cohort --> hold
Eagle at Terradons (hold)
Swordmasters at Terradons (flee) --> redirect at Old Blood
Eagle redirects at Chameleons (flee)
Reavers at Terradons (flee)

Winds of Magic: 4,4
Channeling: Larry - 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 9-4

Iceshard Blizzard: 1,6,6 --> Miscast Effect: 2,4 --> 4 (all) Lions dead, 5 Swordmasters dead, 1w on Old Blood, Larry unharmed, 1 power dice lost
Miasma on OB: 4,6 --> Dispel attempt: 1,1,3 --> Spell result: -2 WS
Earthblood: 2,3 --> Cast attempt failed, end of magic phase

Lizardmen - Turn 5


Old Blood wins the battle all by himself!

Fleeing troops rallied with an exception of terradons who were too far from the Slann to obey his orders. In addition, that panicked skinks and the priest. But that was a minor disturbance to the plan. Chief swiftly landed in front of the Elven Noble and Scar Veteran started to outflank him while his Cold Ones did the same from the other side.

BSB charged another unit of the elven knights all by himself but they knew they stand no chance like that and retreated.

Larry and Bob were still recovering from the magical feedback, they didn't manage to re-dress the ranks when the Old Blood was upon them, invigorated by the healing effect of a spell. Swordmasters fought as best at they could but simply could not penetrate thick hide of the Old Blood and were smashed in return. The formation broke entirely and Old Blood trampled them all. (Edit: Hinge called a challenge and I decided to decline. He sent BSB to the "rear" rank and I could not use his re-rolls. I lost combat by 1 and rolled 5,6 for break test. The unit was caught in pursuit).

That was the hardest blow Elven army suffered and it was clear they would not be able to recover from that. It was now the matter of retreating in good order.

Turn details

BSB charges Dragon Princes (flee) --> distance after retreat - 15" --> charge roll: 1,1,2

Winds of Magic: 2,4
Channeling: Slann - 2, Larry - 1
Power Dice vs Dispel Dice: 8-5

Soul Quench: 1,3,4 --> no dispel attempt --> 2d6 = 1,1
Drain Magic: 2,3,4 --> dispelled: 1,1,2,3,5
Apotheosis (boosted): 5,6 --> d3 roll = 1 --> one wound recovered

Outcasts - Turn 5


Desperate attacks by the survivors

With general and bsb lost Elven warriors lost their hearts. The battle was lost and there was little they could do. Some of them desperately attacked. 4 Lions jumped at the lone BSB but the beast was not easy to hurt and killed all Chracians.

Light cavalry chased the skinks and terradons but they were hard to reach again. Even eagle swooped down and attacked lone Slann, wounding it.

Lizardmen - Turn 6


Scar Veteran comes to the rescue

Lizardmen consolidate their position once again. Scar Veteran comes to the rescue and the eagle is killed, not to bother the peace of the Slann anymore. Chief again blocks Elven Noble from charging other targets. Light troops rally too.

Slann, seeing that the day is won, orders Old Blood to take the command of the army and enters deeper state of meditation in order to contemplate the plan of the Old Ones further.

Outcasts - Turn 6


Parting Shots!

Elven warriors could not do much at this stage. Reavers charged terradons to make sure no fliers would scout for the Slann to cover their retreat. Terradons were destroyed but the skinks who witnessed that didn't care.

Finally, Archers attempted hard task of assassinating the Slann from the distance. They wounded the enemy general twice and his skink and saurus minions were too slow to protect him but the Shield of the Old Ones did its job. (Edit: I wounded the Slann twice, Hinge failed his 4+ Look out Sir rolls but passed both ward saves.)

With these parting shots survivors of the Elven army withdrew from the battle field.

After-battle thoughts

Ouch! That was painful defeat. When I lose my characters it is almost always a huge loss. No wonder, they are very expensive indeed.

But let me start with congratulations to Hinge for a great game and teaching me a few valuable lessons! He had a very good deployment, firm plan and perfect execution. In particular, the sequence of charge reaction turn 4 was something I admire the most. The use of the support units was unparalleled and I would love to show that to anybody who calls such units "chaff" and uses them only to throw under the bus and get them killed for nothing.

Hinge not only positioned them so that I could not attack the Slann but fled with them in such a way that stalled the attack of my troops and I didn't gain anything with my charges. What is more, these regiments remained alive and were very useful again. Even when they didn't rally I had to spend another two turns hunting them down. I didn't succeed fully and it didn't matter anymore.

I think Hinge made only one mistake with Salamander and Skinks at the beginning of the game. Even solo charge with the Old Blood that could have ended with its loss (I will explain my point soon) was calculated risk. It worked and netted Hinge huge amount of VP. But even if it didn't he still had hitting power to break the back of my army.

Well done, Hinge! It was an honor to play against you and learn from you first hand!

Unfortunately, I feel the mistakes I made contributed to the overall defeat too.

1. Deployment - I deployed my units badly and could not use shooters to the effect. They were too far, too late and even with a few good shots that eliminated skinks and chameleons they didn't contribute to the game/it was too late.

2. Nashers charge/positioning - Looking at the game with the benefit of a hindsight I can tell that the solo charge with Nasher was not the best option. I am not saying he didn't have a chance to kill SV with his star lance. But the problem was that I left Terradons unchecked and totally ignored the fact they can simply fly over the knights to charge eagle claw.

I think the better option was to charge terradons with noble, as they would have to hold the charge and withdraw with DP so they could be a little further from CO. If terradons held then it is good as they would have blocked CO from charging the noble. If they fled I think I had a chance to flee through units.

In fact, I still had reavers I could use to divert them.

I had a chance to avenge Dragon Princes but made another mistake and placed Nasher too close and at shallow angle so that when CO got back they could move out of his arc of sight and avoid the charge. Later on he was easily blocked by the chief and I didn't want to risk the Egg to explode into his face.

3. Spells dispelling priority/Combat with Old Blood - Charging Old Blood with Swordmasters was premature. I should have let him to fight lions and await his charge next turn. It is not because I had a miscast that evaporated Lions before they could strike but because I would have had more time.

When I had Old Blood on single wound I decided to dispel drain magic to keep the hexes on the enemy. I think it was a mistake and I should have dispelled apotheosis. Thus keeping him on that single wound. I also had an option to accept the challenge or not. I decided to decline but it was tough call for the Swordmasters with 6 S5 attacks total to wound OB twice and count on failed armor and ward saves.

If I dispelled apotheosis instead I had a better chance to kill him. Accepting challenge with Larry would give him a chance to wound OB better and would keep that fight for one more round. On the other hand, due to hexes OB hit only once but unfortunately it was enough for him to break the unit and catch it in pursuit.

4. Desperate charges - There was no need for Lions to charge BSB. I did wound him twice but he had 1+/4++ save so it was another situation where the chances to wound were very low. I might have lost them anyway but there was no need to lose them like that. At the same time I think I should have charged the cohort with 2 remaining Swordmasters from the flank as that would have kept them alive longer and maybe even threaten Slann.

Despite the huge defeat I did enjoy the game and I hope I will have a chance for rematch sometime (although it is quite difficult to organize it with all this time travel ).

Thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed the report! If you did, please, leave a comment or two!

[Ferny]

I'm kinda curious as to deployment order here...I presume you deployed on your baseline early and once the chips were down placed your left flank further forward to sweep round - is that correct?

I'm surprised you deployed so deep - I always found I wanted my combat units to close with the skinks fast (I would use my shooting superiority at range, but they're so cheap it only chips away at them). I'd have been tempted to use the wood your seaguard are in as cover to close through. I'm curious, because Hinge's build is a bit different to my usual lizard opponent, is it the combat threat from the saurus heroes which is holding you back?

Interesting that your scouts deployed back - good shout perhaps, I can't see where they'd have been particular use further forward, unless you were to use them as a skirmish screen for something like swordmasters?

Also interesting the location of the terradons - I think they're reasonably well contained in that corner. Absolutely they could frustrate any advance of yours, but between your strong backlie shooting and DP/noble threat, I don't think they can easily advance on your warmachine/backline and they're well away from your vulnerable fast cav. I know they can move fast and will probably benefit from a skink screen, but to my eyes they're deployed very defensively.

I like your left flank - between sisters/archers and two units of cavalry I think you've got that side solidly covered. Be careful you don't loose the reavers early though, they're so vulnerable to skinks. I'd be tempted to move them up hard, but behind your dragon princes for hard cover (if you can set it up to avoid the skinks moving round for a shooting angle on them, assuming they'd find that a desirable move). DPs I'd basically move up really hard into their faces so that they can't savely flee and leave you stranded far back. You'll probably either eat a turn of shooting (and S&S) but I think it's the way to command the flank, especially if you thin them first with archers? Alternatively they can try to move out of your arc, but they might be march blocked and you can cover extra angles with the reavers. The only proviso here is the terradon egg, but I think he's too far away to be a T1 threat, and the salamander, but likewise, if they turn to engage this flank all to the better.

The nearest chameleons look like a royal pain in the ass to shift, especially as you've deployed quite far back for a charge, so I'd suggest up steps bob with a 6-dice ring and try to force through a magic missile as they're so hard to hit with shooting and you're at a big casting disadvantage.

Target priorities for shooting? I think salamanders are the number one threat to deal with at range if you can get a good bead on them. The skink chief might be a good target of opportunity but probably nothing more (though possible panic tests for an 'easy' kill if you can manage it). At the moment the saurus cavalry look quite exposed - still not the priority in my eyes compared to the salamander, but a good next target perhaps - probably a toss up between them and the terradons depending on placement? Big heroes I wouldn't bother with except perhaps with the RBT, but you'll probably have safer bets avaialble.

Overall battleplan? I can see you forming up a nice battleline diagonally along the bottom left/top right axis. You've already got a double line on the forward flank to cope with the flying hero if he tries to sneak past. I don't think you can move into position on that flank with your infantry until the salamander is dealt with, but between the DPs pushing aggressively and the archers/sisters it'll have plenty to think about. Your right flank looks well OK, but weak compared to his concentration of force. I think your threat range there is strong enough to force his advance to be careful, but he can overwhelm it I'm sure...but can he keep his left flank safe from your advancing battleline?

So far it sounds all elves...but the real screwball which I'm not used to fighting is the saurus heroes - besides challenges I don't have an answer to them. Also magic - I think you'll be overpowered in both your and his magic phase, so the question will be how will the winds blow, will anyone lose critical concentration, and how much damage will it do. Shooting I think you'll contain reasonably well. Board control I think is in your favour, but the terradon chief and the salamander will cause havok if they aren't shut down.

Prediction: a very bloody battle with a small elf victory. If I go through all this again with my lizard eyes on we'll see whether I reach precisely the opposite conclusion . Is this match being fought as we speak? Is it all over? Is it still coming up?

Note - all my comments come from a history of basically fighting to a draw in this match up, so take them with a pinch of salt!

[Hinge]

First off, I want to thank Swordmaster for the game. After so long chatting about HE MSU, it was a great opportunity to test myself against the master.

So comments on pregame thoughts and deployment:

Pregame:

I generally have two basic deployment strategies depending on opponent. The first is very spread out deployment, accepting risk in Leadership checks for a swarming, multiple threat angles style of attack. The other is a more condensed deployment with the light units swirling around the main units and holding together until an opportunity presents itself.

Since my opponent was reasonably fast, had more units then me, and more long range firepower (shooting and MM), the second deployment strategy seemed to fit. Add in terrain, where two pieces of “impassable” terrain allowed me to anchor the Saurus flank and it seemed a no brainer. The Suarus unit would be a battering ram and would attempt to go one on one with single Elven regiments while skinks, terrain, and amigos ensured the other Outcast regiments would not be able to pile in.

I wanted to accomplish 3 goals early in the game. The first was to kill the Eagle Claw. This would give my Three Amigos freedom of movement as there was little I was worried about range wise while they ran around on there own. The second was to kill the Reavers and Eagle as I felt this would give me more board control, despite Swordmasters dominance in units. The third was to degrade Elven BS shooting. Unchecked, the Archers, Sea Guard, Eagle Claw, and Sisters could clear off my skirmishers in no time flat. I was quite worried about Nasher but felt it was about getting Arcane Unforging off on him or making sure I got the charge.

Deployment:

I was able to pick sides and choose that with the house, mostly to deny it as a firebase for Swordmaster. I would only go into the house in desperation, as a medium fireball would annihilate any skink unit in the house. What I did not know was which side of the house I would put my main effort. The first drops were spread out on both its sides, hedging my bets and allowing me to deploy on either side. In the end I choose the right side as it went a long way to accomplishing the third goal. Both the Archers and Sisters (as well as a Reaver unit) would have to spend several turns marching to get good shots off. Even when they could shoot, I felt it would be at less then optimal situations.

In a rare move for me, the Slann went into the Suarus block. I felt he could start here as it would be several turns before the unit would be in position to engage, by which time there should be a skink unit behind me that I could jump into.

Swordmasters wide deployment really nullified the Sallies abilities to get to a flank and BBQ elves. I decided the best course was to conserve them for a late game roast/redirection.

The Old Blood known as Luc-Kay surveyed the valley that would soon be a blood soaked battle field. His scouts had reported the advance of the Elven host. Many centuries ago, when Luc-Kay was a warrior fresh from the spawning pools, the Elves had been allies. Now, the Slann Luc-Kay served had ordered the destruction of this particular band. No reasons, no explanation, for none was needed. The plans of the Old Ones were far beyond the understanding of a creature such as Luc-Kay. It is enough that his Slann decreed it must happen.

Turning to his captains, “We will use the Stagadon formation; I will take the left horn, Ne-d shall take the right, Dus-Sty shall command the center”. Turning back towards the field, the Elven host could be seen shaking out into its battle line. Luc-Kay’s grin was enough to send those skinks that saw it scampering away.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for lengthy comments! I will do my best to finish the report as soon as possible but there were a lot of things happening and I am already considering making pictures which would show in stages what happened in particular turn. Especially, where there were plenty of double flee and re-direct charges actions.

@ Ferny

I will add the deployment order as I agree it was an important part of the phase. We both had to deal with the situation where we don't necessarily have more drops and it was not possible to out deploy the opponent in the same way as in the case of advantage coming from having significantly more units than the enemy.

I deployed deeper because I assumed I would have second turn and wanted to deny first turn shooting to skinks. I think it was a little too conservative with some of the units because they all have javelins which have only 12" range. At the same time,I knew I can benefit better from long range shooting (provided I can focus it) before the combat so I wanted to have more time to do so.

I tried a few things with SW but I was either too far or two exposed. Hinge did well with his deployment, not offering me the chance to stop his advance and I didn't want to position them so that they can be shot at turn 1.

Terradons were deployed defensively, true. However, it is a very good option here. They are highly mobile and the longer they are alive the more useful they can be. There was no need for them to be exposed but due to flying movement they could be easily repositioned. Also, as a spoiler, I want attract your attention to Walk Between Worlds spell.

On the contrary, I didn't like my left flank It looked good when I tried some versions of the deployment but somehow I convinced myself Hinge would deploy his force centrally, with two task forces around Saurus Cavalry and Saurus Warriors moving around the house. That would allow him to support each other but also gave him the flexibility to switch to either flank. That was my mistake and I ended up with shooters too far away to make a difference. In fact, I initially wanted to deploy eagle claw there but change my mind when I realized I didn't predict the way Hinge was going to deploy right. I knew he would go after it but I hoped I can use it to my advantage.

And that also comes as an issue with chameleons that had good spot to deploy as they were not treated with the charge and not much with the shooting.

Shooting priorities are indeed like you say but due to good deployment and terrain as well as lack of range for shooting and magic I was not bringing that factor to the equation. I am afraid I took away one of my strengths in that game by the bad deployment.

It was indeed a good question as who is going to win the time race. I had to delay his main forces but Hinge had plenty of units to delay my flanking force. I was at a disadvantage though because of the distance and terrain.

Thanks for the optimistic evaluation though! It is nice to know you put some faith in my elves (unless you put on these lizard contact lenses )! The game was over when you were writing your comments so if you want to know about the result in advance I can send you PM

@ Hinge

Thanks! I really appreciate the fact how seriously you took that game and how much effort you put into preparation. I am very grateful then that you take time to add your thoughts before the game even started and keep the discussion going with details on your plan.

I also wanted to take the opportunity to thank Ulthuan members who had time to jump in to the UB war room to witness the encounter live! Cheers guys, I hope you enjoyed it and I would love to hear your thoughts after I finish the report!

I told you before and I am going to repeat it now that I really like how much flexibility that army has. While you described 2 general deployment formations we both know there is also so much hidden in details. However, I should have considered them both instead of assuming you are going to spread forces little more regardless. One of the most successful approaches against MSU in general is to go for refused flank as you did. Your deployment denied me my shooting advantage while played to your army strengths very well. I felt totally out deployed

The three goals you have mentioned here are very important. I guess I helped you a little with the last one by spreading my shooters wide but the main credit still goes to you and your superior deployment.

I had a hard choice with Eagl Claw. If I deployed it on the other flank it would have been safer but due to your weighted flank and terrain I had poor line of sight to acquire any targets. But by deploying on the hill I had to dedicate some units as interceptors and kind of choked myself on that flank. The woods in front also contributed to the fact the shooting was less efficient. I deployed Sea Guard forward to be able to charge some chameleons as I didn't want to risk ER for that mission. I knew you value fast cavalry greatly and I expected them being targeted as soon as possible either by shooting or magic missiles. Hence my defensive moves in the vanguard phase.

It seems from your comments on the deployment that I made a mistake with shooters and deployed them too early thus letting you to choose better flank for advancement. Hm, lesson learned. Since I planned to deploy 4 elite infantry at the back anyway and more or less to the center I could have start with them instead. I waited with DP because I didn't want to put Flaming Banner against the Scar Vet with 2++ ward against such attacks. I also wanted to spread my formation to deny spots for chameleons. I could not do it with light troops alone, however, as I risked being attacked early anyway by the very scouts I wanted to get rid of. The other problem is that if I were to charge chameleons with reavers I may as well lose them to stand and shoot. Very risky.

I think it was good move to place Slann in Saurus. They offered better protection as lucky magic missile would decimate cohort or skirmishers and allow targeting him with shooting. At least in theory. With Slann in the big block of infantry you also had a focal point for entire army that could converge around him when needed and a combination of Ld9, coldblood and bsb was amazing.

I am glad that at least I countered Salamanders with my wide deployment

And thanks for the short intro! I really like it and I may try to add some new paragraphs to the story too!

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Just letting you know that I have just finished the report.

Cheers!

[Jimmy]

Hinges list is intriguing to me and this has nothing to do in terms with its construction. Post battle he talks about his deployment strategy with this list specifically and touches on unit positioning, clearly the US master has done his trials and tribulations with this list and entered the battle with a wealth of experience that would eventually lead him to secure a victory. Such experience with a list is how a player leaves the masses of ‘average’ players I feel. Hinge will probably prove me wrong however how long have you been running this type of Lizardmen list for? Secondly in your opinion where did SM go wrong and give the game away to you? How do you think he could have changed his strategy?

SM you also have the above experience with one list which you’ve been running since the dawn of religion hence why I think this game was a bit of an ‘edge of your seat’ drama unfolding before our eyes. So I must ask, when is the rematch?

SM I do remember watching deployment in this game and there was one unit you placed accidentally but wouldn’t take it back. Remind me was this the Shadow Warriors that got rocked to death? If you could have had your time over where would they have deployed and how do you think this would have impacted on the game? Speaking of deployment you identified this as a key issue for your loss and funnily enough we’ve had many conversations about this ultimately being a deciding factor in not only warhammer but I feel more so with an MSU list which one of its many keys to victory is movement. Once again hindsight is a great tool for analysing however how would you have deployed differently specifically your shooting elements? Do you think a more central deployment would have been of particular benefit or god forbid even anchoring a flank?

Second point you touch on is Nashers positioning. Did you simply forget about the Terradon’s dropping coconuts or underestimate it? I don’t think you should discount this immediately (his charge) as it would have been an interesting play had he made the charge and of course dropped the enemy character. This could have effectively freed up the Dragon Princes and I’m interesting to find out what Hinge would have done had this occurred. Countered with the Saurus Block exposing them? Use the Terradons to re-direct the Dragon Princes?

I really don't have a lot to add of value in terms of tactical talk during the game as it’s not really my forte especially when two masters are involved! It was a good game to watch (at least the parts I witnessed) with two master minds at thought. Well played Hinge indeed.

SM - I do enjoy the batrep format, for the fluff monkeys and tactical analysts you've achieved both goals nicely I feel.

I'm also curious, Hinge had a plan of attack going into the game, did you have one as well SM that you wish to share?

Shame such quality battle reports don’t generate more traffic in terms of comments and tactical talk however I’m cursed with that as well SM but I’m sure out of 250+ views that generates only 5 comments is sheer frustration. Don’t despair however, I’m sure the masses are just in awe of your battle report writing skills and can’t bring themselves to pollute this thread!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy!

Thanks a lot for your comments! Very insightful, I greatly appreciate them!

As far as I know Hinge is very experienced with many armies, LM are not an exception. He used to rock Carnosaurus list some time ago and was winning tournaments with it. I am sure that experience counts for a lot. I am not sure how many games he played with this particular list but I believe he intends to use it at his next tournament.

Ha! A rematch would be fantastic but due to crazy time difference it may be tricky to do again soon. I will do my best to make it happen at some stage but it also depends on Hinge and his schedule. And of course, he may as well decide that this particular warrior of Hoeth needs some more practice before another lesson takes place

I was indeed too hasty with Sisters as I thought it might be good place for them to be but that decision was based on the wrong assumption that Hinge is going to go for both wings simultaneously instead of going with refused flank. But Sisters were not the biggest problem.

Yes, Shadow Warriors got rocks on their heads but I think Hinge had a list of potential targets for that attack and SW happened to be the one available at the time. It was not coincidence and not something he did just because he could. Shadow Warriors are one of the most mobile elements of my army and these need to be dealt with to win the movement phase.

I spent majority I dedicated to that battle wondering about better deployment. There were other decisions I made that didn't give the good results for me but the deployment was the main reason I was on the back foot already. Before I am going to discuss the alternative one I came up with I want to add that I don't mind sitting in the corner for a while if that means I can move my units where I need them the most. Such deployment, however, does not feel that comfortable to me. I need space to move and by putting everything in one corner I feel like I am limiting my options.

In this game I think North was not as good for my army as South. I could use the house to put some shooters there, I could deploy around the hill and have good line of sight for shooters and spells. North had that limited due to impassable terrain and forests. With woods so close to the deployment I was not that favored either because Hinge had plenty of skirmishers who would benefit from extra cover and stubbornness in the forest.

That is why I think more central deployment would have been better. I need a flexible one, that allows me to keep good defensive position but also to move in any manner I want. I need the deployment that does not choke me down on one side but is not too spread to let the enemy to deal with half of my army before the other one comes to the rescue. I think following deployment would have been better:



Central positioning of the infantry allows me to move to any flank while maintaining good formation. I needed that because I could not predict which side Hinge is going to go. If he moved to both wings as I thought he might, then I was also prepared because I had my forces spread evenly.

Close proximity of Swordmasters, Lions and Archers/Sea Guard meant that I could use these groups to support each other. Archers/Saea guard would be in good position to shoot but at the same time to move along and provide some ranks. Cavalry on the flanks prevents chameleons from sneaking behind my lines. Deploying back creates better area in the center for the shooters. LM army needs to close because all the shooters are short range ones and in order to get points these two combat regiments have to fight. At the same time it does not allow terradons to land safely.

It allows to move any half with Eagle Claw as an axis so no matter which flank is attack the other one is supporting quickly. Eagle Claw in the center is better protected but has better line of sight to shoot. Initial reavers positions should push chameleons back a little so that they cannot march and shoot turn 1. And I would withdraw them after scouts deployment anyway.

I didn't underestimate the Terradons and their ability to move fast. I didn't predict all that Hinge did with them but moving SW to protect Eagle Claw was a consequence of bad deployment. I had to take that risk because otherwise I would lose it to chameleons. The problem was that with Hand of Glory and Walk Between Worlds I can stop one but not both. In any case, I could not stop Walk Between Worlds anyway. My mistake was not to engage them in combat, they are fliers they can charge over the regiments.

After considering the options I think I made a mistake with Nasher, as I should have charged the terradons with him alone. If they held, Nasher should easily get 2-3 wounds. That means that they are left with 2 models and no place to charge with Cold Ones. If he fled, I could still redirect at Cold Ones and attack Scar Vet as I initially planned. Instead, I let them fly behind my back and they did a lot of damage.

If I made the charge in the first place and even killed Scar Vet I believe Hing would leave Cold Ones alone to deal with Nasher. They have enough attacks to kill him eventually and his lance is useless in the subsequent turns. That is why I considered that an exchange but good one because each Scar Veteran is going to wreck havoc among my troops all by itself.

As to my initial plan, after seeing the deployment I wanted to:

- use shadow warriors, sea guard and eagle claw to shoot down skinks
- if possible charge with these regiments and reavers to tie down light troops or scare them away
- use dragon princes and Nasher as a threat to slow down the advance and allow the other flank to converge on the LM side
- use centrally placed infantry as a threat too

You are correct about "the curse" It does feel like there is one we share! It is great to know people read reports but as you know very well yourself, it is the feedback that matters. On the form, on the style, on the game and possibilities. I learned the most from my games when I wrote the reports and when I talked about them with others. Interestingly, I believe I developed a lot when at the beginning, when a lot of people told me MSU is not going to work. Funny thing, I miss that time because at least there was some discussion! Although I need to add it was often very heated one.

Having said that I don't want to turn it into a rant. I know that replying to the game is not quick. You spend some time to read about the game. Not much for the reply. I am guilty myself, I often read reports of others when I should reply too. I constantly try to do better and hopefully will be able to organize myself more efficiently to find time to comment in the reports of others.

I also acknowledge the fact that armies that are featured in my reports are not that popular. Somehow I tend to play against individuals who like doing things differently. So there might be less to connect to if you play with totally different force yourself.

However, I always want to make my reports better, in form, in style and in content. Without any feedback it is hard to say what I can do to do so. I have some ideas, some were already implemented. Some others require more time. I will keep trying for sure.

Cheers!

[Jimmy]

I also acknowledge the fact that armies that are featured in my reports are not that popular. Somehow I tend to play against individuals who like doing things differently. So there might be less to connect to if you play with totally different force yourself.

Thanks for the in-depth replies mate, I appreciate it. I wanted to highlight this point however as well to be honest this really disappoints me across multiple forums. You play a game, post the report and then people immediately judge your skills based upon not how you performed, or your army, but rather what the opposition took which is madness. First and foremost I like to think we are all gamers who love our hobby so I don't understand the logical reasoning to discount somebodies skill level based upon what is across the table from them. Granted this isn't always the case but it seems to happen on a regular basis with replies such as "why would your opponent take <insert random unit not commonly taken>????"

It appears to be an inherent flaw in battle reports online however that people seem to be frustrated when they don't see two WAAC armies slugging it out but rather two players who love the background of their army and make fundamental unit choices based on what they have in their collection, what models they love, often what they have painted, and of course what works well.

To be fair I don't read every battle report, I'll only read those that interest me in terms of armies I like (so I never read Skaven ones!! ) or play myself that way I feel like I've got a foot to stand on when making comments.

I think however SM the lack of heated discussion/debates surrounding your MSU now is merely a testament that the death of the naysayers has certainly been and passed. They've been hit with their 'End Times' and they simply have no argument to say MSU doesn't work, you got to the masters with it for god's sake and have consistently done well in the tournament circuit down there. No 'Art of Pushing' here, you haven't been suckered into using the new big toys and best of all you don't rely on the Banner of the World Dragon to nullify any weaknesses your army has.

Watching your MSU force in action is always an exquisite glimpse into how poetic and surgically precise one can get when he knows his army in and out. Hinge showed it well in this game but in the past you've commonly showing it as well. You've inspired many members of Ulthuan (and other forums) to go down the MSU route because I'm sure like me they're fascinated by it and want to make it work themselves. I've made no secret of wanting to try it out with the Tomb Kings and I think with the release of Undead Legions and now the ability to march them somewhat is the best time ever to have a try with it.

As always, looking forward to the next report. Keep up the fantastic work sir.

[Curu Olannon]

It appears to be an inherent flaw in battle reports online however that people seem to be frustrated when they don't see two WAAC armies slugging it out but rather two players who love the background of their army and make fundamental unit choices based on what they have in their collection, what models they love, often what they have painted, and of course what works well.

I think however SM the lack of heated discussion/debates surrounding your MSU now is merely a testament that the death of the naysayers has certainly been and passed. They've been hit with their 'End Times' and they simply have no argument to say MSU doesn't work, you got to the masters with it for god's sake and have consistently done well in the tournament circuit down there. No 'Art of Pushing' here, you haven't been suckered into using the new big toys and best of all you don't rely on the Banner of the World Dragon to nullify any weaknesses your army has.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Jimmy!

Thanks a lot for your kind words! You have just boosted my motivation for report writing enormously!

Cheers!

[JP_za]

Hey SM and others

Long time lurker here and fan of your excellent BRs. I don't even play HE but I periodically check this form for the high quality reports it provides. I agree that is sad that they do not generate more feedback so I finally got an account . It must take a long time to put them all together, but I am sure that there are plenty of leeches who enjoy reading them but have nothing to add. I learn a lot of tactics used by various armies from them.

In terms of the style they are ideal, concise and easy to follow. I really like the details about the winds in this report, a bonus for using UB I guess.

As for the battle, what a cracker. I play LM so this is of special interest to me. What can I say, Hinge clearly knows his stuff. 2500 is more than I usually (ever) play, it would be so nice to have a Slann and oldblood, they make a great combo. I guess he showed his worth taking on the lions by himself.

I am no expert but I think the deployment made it very tough to get you units in position. The sheer number of skinks blocking your way never let you get to the meat of the army and left flank was overwhelmed. All this said already and more knowledgably by you and others though. The second deployment looks better – but hindsight is 20/20!

Sorry I have no useful tactical input, but just stopped by to say thanks for posting such great stuff.

JP

[Hinge]

Sorry for the delay in chiming in. I have been traveling and an iphone is not the best device to try and respond with!

I thought I would chime in on my thoughts of the battle. The easiest place to start is looking at the 3 early game goals I had set, then look at a couple of turns and share my thinking, then finally what worked and mistakes I made.

In my mind, the 3 goals were necessary to grab board control, which I felt was going to be a challenge against MSU Helf anyways.

Goal 1-Kill the Eagle- Success . It got one round of shooting. What I like about my list was the multiple threats I can bring on warmachines. While it was the flyers that got it, the constant threat of the skirmishers was where the action centered early in the game.

Goal 2- Kill Reavers and Eagle. Fail. The left Reaver would run free and be constantly pushing my units back and out of position as well as threatening my fleeing units. Failure to kill the Eagle would impact my decision making mid game (more on that later). Frankly, part of my decision to keep the Terradons back was to bait the right Reavers forward, alas SM was to wise to take that bait.

Goal 3 – Mitigate BS shooting. Success. I score this a success even though the archers and Sisters would survive the game. SM was never able to concentrate his shooting to clear my skrimishers. The early game departure of the Seaguard certainly made my life easier, but even then I had killed half and had them at a -1 to hit with Tempest.

So 2 out of 3, I will take it every time, especially against a quality opponent.


Let’s pick up the action on Turn 2. I had moved the terradons onto the hill and they blocked the DP and Nasher. However, when I used Walk between Worlds, I did not have enough movement to cover Nasher, allowing him a charge path. I felt clearing out the elven scouts was worth the risk. Terradons, Skink Chief, unit of skrimishers and some cham skinks were all in position to threaten the Eagle claw, I just needed a path. I had Arcane Unforging available to attempt to break the Star Lance, making that charge suicide for Nasher and at the very least, I would be steadfast with the BSB nearby. As it turned out, I got lucky as Nashers horse was a little slow off the mark.

Next interesting point was Turn 4. I had a decision to make as a DP and WL unit had come crashing in. I could continue to drive the Suarus block at Larry and Bob or I could turn to face the danger. My instinct was to keep driving as the two characters and their body guard was worth plenty of points. I had enough chaff to stall the Elven threat on the flank for at least a turn, perhaps a second. What kept me from pursuing this course was the Eagle sitting in the back ground. I felt he would be able to step forward and block the Suarus long enough for my screening forces to be disbursed and I would be facing threats on 2 fronts. In the end, I abandoned the OB to let him fend for himself and turned to meet the threat.

As far as mistakes:

-The panic of the Priest on turn 1 was wholly avoidable. SM saw the opportunity and jumped on it.

-Allowing the OB to be clipped. Frankly this is something I feel I would have seen in a game on the table v. UB and at least forced a roll off to see who reformed first. As it was, I felt like I had the magic defense to make sure he was not hexed (I was still sitting on my scroll). Alas, that plan did not work with an IF and a failed dispel attempt. I was lucky to hold. If I had sent the suarus forward instead of turning, this would not have been a bad thing but I didn’t.

-When the CO unit came back on the board, the scar vet should have exited the unit. Would have given me some more options.

What worked was keeping relentless pressure on SM. I forced a large number of Leadership tests, whether Panic, break, charge redirects, march test, etc. on SM, some of which he was bound to fail. I have always found that forcing as many Ld tests as possible will eventually lead to rewards. Any failed Ld test seems important!

The basic deployment/strategy went well. The funny thing is I can see myself spreading my forces out in this particular match up as well. The deployment phase is huge in this match up.

In the end, I had a great time and a feel honored to finally be included in a SwordMaster Bat rep!

Hinge

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi JP!

Thanks a lot for your kind words! As Jimmy has already mentioned, it is great to hear that the reports are considered good read. It boosts the motivation and encourages to look for even better ways to report battles. Hence, I am very happy you decided to jump in and say so!

I really hope you will be more active now on the forum and will lead by example and add some comments in the reports of other forum members! I always feel guilty of not doing that myself often enough, especially that I know from my experience that it takes a lot of time to prepare one.

It is also great to know that you consider my reports clear and easy to follow. I pay great attention to that and that is why I'd rather post less and use the time to prepare the diagrams. In my experience, photos themselves are not enough and I still take poor quality ones that make the assessment of the situation more difficult. As a reporter I don't want readers to struggle to see what is going on.

At the same time I want to add as much information as possible but without making it too long. Hence my concern that maybe it is too much when I add opponents army list description from my own point of view. However, I believe it may be helpful in providing the context for the decision making during the game. No matter, good or bad, there were reasons for that. And indeed, having UB chat saved with all the details is very helpful here. Hopefully, there is a balance between the amount of details and clarity of the report.

Any feedback is very important. I am glad you liked the report but I also want to make them even better in the future so don't be shy and let me know what works and what should be improved!

As to the game itself, I can't stress out enough how fantastic example of using skirmishers and fast cavalry it was thanks to Hinge and his superb maneuvering. If there were a Warhammer Academy his example would be studied as one of the best examples to follow for generations of new players. It sets the bar for me as an opponent high and I can only hope that I have learned enough to put up much better fight if we have a chance for a rematch. Unfortunately, this time I screwed up the deployment so could not offer a better game due to initial disadvantage.

It is great that Hinge found time and explained his plans for the game as I think it is very important to know what both sides wanted to achieve.

Edit: I have just noticed that he posted in the meantime, will try to address his comments later on too! Thanks a lot Hinge!

Cheers!

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Hinge,

Thanks a lot for taking time and adding to the discussion! I am sure that all the LM players among Ulthuan members will value your insight greatly!

3 Goals

I find it very inspiring that you formulated your plan around 3 goals and then focused on these through the game. The beauty lies in the fact that there are 3 of them which means it is easier to focus on them and not being distracted.

Without taking away from you, as you certainly did a great job in achieving the objectives, I must admit I helped you in 2 of these with bad deployment. Eagle Claw was still too exposed, so you could use multiple threats. Failing panic check was bad luck but it was in poor spot in the first place. Deploying Sea Guard too close and Archers/Sisters too far also contributed to the fact that you could focus on destroying the war machine without risking encounter with my other shooters.

Turn 2

Yes, that poor Eagle Claw was doomed and I was reacting to your threats, bad sign for me. The charge was an attempt to hit back and stall your advance as well as make you bleed for the gains you were about to rip. Unfortunately, I made a bad decision and on top of that, I didn't make it to the combat either.

Turn 4

It was actually a very good example to show that you were in control of the game. You had two options and both were good. You had enough troops and good position to choose either way. Even if you lost OB in combat you still had troops to block me and make me pay for getting too close.

"Mistakes"

I think the first one was just unlucky because you kept the formation tight and probably you were under the impression they are still in the range to BSB for the re-rolls. It was a drawback but in the end, it didn't cost you the unit although more flexibility in the magic phase due to priest being a vessel for Slann could be used to advantage.

Why do you think allowing OB to be clipped was a mistake? I could not direct that many attacks at him anyway. I doubt that I would have been able to inflict 2 wounds to kill him and miscast and detonation didn't really help either even if it wounded him too.

Separating Scar Veteran and CO is a good option and I will need to think about that in the future but I would not call it a mistake.

Unfortunately, taking lots of Ld tests is something I need to deal with while playing with MSU army. I could have avoided some but again, deployment is the main reason I didn't.

I am sure that if we were to play again you would still keep me guessing if you are going to go for refused flank or wider formation. That is the beauty of that list that it allows you to maintain the flexibility. After our game, for the first time I actually started considering more radical changes in the army list in order to make it more flexible. I have a feeling that it is way too predictable now.

I am very happy to know that you had a good time and the honor of featuring a living legend of the US warhammer scene is mine!

Cheers!

[Ferny]

Still haven't forgotten you swordie - and more to comment on now the discussion is flowing - but won't be for the immidiate future. Expect threadmancy. Also, I want to go through your thorough response to my MSU thread which I never really dealt with - I put so much out there fore you to respond to, you did, and then *I* information overloaded . I will have a big warhammer binge post thesis, starting with your posts my friend .

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Ferny,

No problem! I know that is way harder to reply to such a wall of text! And thredomancy should fit nicely into End of Time theme

Keep up the good work with the thesis!

Cheers!

[Loremaster Avarael]

As one of the faceless masses that lurk on the forum I would like to say that I do appriceate all the time and effort that goes in to the battlereports that everyone posts. Speaking for myself I enjoy a good read but when the tactical dialog breaks a game down to such a level that taking 5 Swordmasters is brilliant and taking 7 is an unforgivable mistake puts the game at a level that is over my head and focuses on an aspect of the hobby where my passion does not burn so bright.

Again, thank you for posting.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Loremaster Avarael,

Thanks a lot for your comment!

Do you think the amount of detail in this particular report was too overwhelming? I tried to add some assessment of the dangers different units posed to my army but after all, didn't discuss army list building itself. I usually don't go to that section of the forum anyway as I assume players have a plan for their armies and they made their choices for a reason.

At the same time, could you describe what should be included your ideal battle report?

Cheers!

[Iluvatar]

That's indeed one of your most interesting reports, Swordmaster. Hinge has a nice army list, but most of all it's the use he makes of all those elements that is outstanding. It looks like a dance!
And sharing thoughts before and after the game, from both of you, makes the whole report even more interesting to read.
The thing is, of course, that in the light of so much insight it's hard to have interesting comment to add!

That said, I'm not sure how to best use your army in this configuration. You do have the shooting range for you, but the deciding factor in this game is the terrain. The impassable in the middle makes it hard to get the combined charges you need, and the forest are not good news either: if you keep out of them, you suffer modifiers for your shooting, but if you fight in them, skinks can be steadfast...

All in all, I'm most intrigued by your last comment: "After our game, for the first time I actually started considering more radical changes in the army list in order to make it more flexible." I'm curious to know what you envision. Keep a full MSU army, for instance, or accept having one or two slightly larger units?
Anyway, my overall feeling is that you had a very fine sword with the 7th Ed book, but to be honest it has lost its edge with the release of the 8th army book last year. No rerolls on Elites is a hard blow that you haven't recovered from yet: you use those 4 units very differently that you did before. More cautiously. And your characters are always in one or two of these units, which makes you extra cautious with them... How often do those 4 units all get involved in a fight during a battle? I bet it's less than 50% (not counting depleted units that you keep away for points preservation)...

So, as a conclusion: I'm really happy to see you consider more radical changes. It seems you're embracing more deeply what you need to improve!

And please, as always - none of this is negative criticism. I still admire you for you dedication to your army, and to reporting so many games. Thanks for showing us that example!

[Loremaster Avarael]

I really enjoyed the battlereport itself and especially the tactical forethoughts of the units/spells used in the game. I liked how it put us as readers in your shoes as the game progressed in regards to what tactics you employed when and why.

To answer your question about what I like to see in a battle report I would have to say a heavy dose of story telling with some personal asides throughout (like when you rolled 8 1s to wound those DE Executioners with your PG or how your last Outrider passed his Break test against those charging Black Knights).

The overload of discourse and analytical dissection that I was referring to usually takes place in the comments after the game. I respect and understand being curious about any given players choice of army composition and tactics used but to be critical of another player (another player who spent their time building a batrep and sharing it on the forum) to the point of calling in to question their competency is just silly. Be thankful, be supportive and be respectful.

[Electric Puha]

Lizards vs the Outcasts, it was difficult to know who to cheer for but I'll admit I wasn't unhappy with a coldblooded victory.

I love the detail you put in your reports, including your pregame ideas on your opponents force. Another thing is that when people are claiming that XYZ build is the only "viable" (curse that term) way of playing an army, I only have to think of a little force that leaves the books, banners and frosties at home and still brings home the bacon (most of the time )

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for more feedback! It is very helpful and I greatly appreciate that you took time to add more comments!

@ Iluvatar

I totally agree with what you have written about Hinge's army and the way he uses it on the battle field. Very inspirational!

I am glad to know you like the extra details and I am happy that Hinge was willing to add some of his own comments. It reminds me about good, old WD where both players talked about their plans and how did they manage (or not!) to achieve their goals. I only disagree that there is nothing to add!

Terrain and how it dictates the deployment is a huge part of the game and I wish we all spent more time to discuss it. I presented alternative one, which I believe would have given me better chances of success but it is just one option. I had a chance to think it through better, knowing that we are going to use particular map. At the same time, that is not the luxury I have every time so I need to come up with generic formations against certain foes if possible. I wonder if that is achievable. (Hinge's prologue story and his "Stegadon Formation" were an inspiration here too!).

I admit I find Hinge's all-or-nothing approach intriguing. I don't think HE can mimic that or even should do it but if you look at his army then you will see that you have 2 tough units, fully equipped and multiple characters and plenty of cheap support units. That support has also multiple roles to play, is redundant as many units can do similar job etc. In my opinion it has great potential because it achieved very good balance between different elements.

I think that I still don't have it. And I am not entirely convinced it is the list itself because every time I lose I find faults in deployment, movement, spells or shooting priorities etc. I believe I discussed that problem after CanCon. Having said that it was quite clearly demonstrated that such approach has merits. So naturally, I started to think if there is a version HE could adapt and would it be viable for my particular army. In more details, I started to consider Phoenix Guard as a unit to protect at least my general. I still want to make it faster (the army) so I consider Silver Helms. Units of Great Eagles may be quite useful here as well. Simply because they might perform roles terradons did in that game. But again, inspiration does not mean I have to or should mimic LM army. What is more, these are just vague ideas so I am not sure I will actually do it. In any case, I want to use MSU force but for me it does not mean all units have to be small. Hinge showed that it is perfectly fine to have more expensive regiments and still keep MSU principles in the movement phase.

It is a very good observation and I must admit I noticed I achieved the opposite effect to what I tried with my 2 characters. I wanted them to be less vulnerable in combat and don't slow down the units as they did before. Archie had to be protected and often I simply stayed out of combat. Bob had Reaver Bow and needed to stay put to maximize his shooting efficiency. I moved to Loremaster and BSB without a bow and ... I see less combat anyway as these characters are still fragile and I don't want to risk combat.

It seems to me that I might need yet another change in my approach. It does not have to change my army list, just the way I use it. But in order to change the approach, sometimes changes to the list may be required. I have the feeling that I haven't entirely identified what created that change in the first place. Yes, lack of re-rolls to hit is significant change but I don't think it is the only reason.

I will try to add more in depth description of the performance of the various regiments since the release of the new book so that I am going to identify better what I need to address. If you have any suggestions, please, let me know!

@ Loremaster Avarael

I found out at some stage that story telling helps me to write the report because if I write it like that then I may skip some details I don't remember and still create a cohesive description of the situation. I will do my best to provide more interesting story line for the future reports. Possibly, with some extra time, I would love to add Prologue and Epilogue stories as I was lucky to have them some time ago when Il Maestro wrote them for me.

I agree with you on the matter of post game discussion. I didn't learn from my games when the first reaction to the lost battle was - change your army list. I learned when I looked at my mistakes and using the very same army I played again and won.

Having said that I am afraid some army list building discussions are hard to avoid. I try not to invite such discussions on regular basis and even have a separate topic in the army list section for that purpose. Army list is important but I always prefer to talk about the game with the very same tools to use and consider the options I missed or didn't choose. I also believe I made it quite clear in the past so there are not many comments that suggest changes to the army list itself

@ Electric Puha

Cheers! I wanted to say I did my best but obviously (as discussed before) I made mistakes and I am afraid I didn't bring my A game as I wanted. The good thing is that I can correct these and if the opportunity arises again I believe I will be better prepared.

Well, the army list is as good as the player that uses it so all I need to do is to keep practicing And it is nice feeling to have something different that works too!

Thanks again for all the support and feedback, I am really happy to receive it so please, keep it coming!

Cheers!

[SpellArcher]

Swordmaster, I had a few thoughts on your comments regarding PG etc but as they are not directly related to this battle I'll post them on your thread in the army blogs forum.

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi SA,

I would be very grateful for any feedback! Looking forward to your suggestions and thanks in advance!

[BorkBork]

Hi swordmaster!

Nice bat rep.

Just one question about your list? Is it legal for larry the loremaster to wear the dragonhelm? Or can high elf mages wear armor now?

Ps: dont have the latest highelf book as i sold my high elf and we dont have a real high elf player here

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi BorkBork,

Thanks a lot! I am glad you like the report!

As to the Loremaster he can wear armour in the same way as Chaos Sorcerers can. I don't have the book or rulebook with me at the moment to quote relevant page. Other wizards in HE army book are not allowed to have armour though as usual.

Cheers!

[Iluvatar]

Finally finding some time for more feedback! Some other project required my attention elsewhere... Apologies for the delay in answering!

Terrain and how it dictates the deployment is a huge part of the game and I wish we all spent more time to discuss it. I presented alternative one, which I believe would have given me better chances of success but it is just one option. I had a chance to think it through better, knowing that we are going to use particular map. At the same time, that is not the luxury I have every time so I need to come up with generic formations against certain foes if possible. I wonder if that is achievable. (Hinge's prologue story and his "Stegadon Formation" were an inspiration here too!).

I believe it would indeed be interesting to have a panel of a few standard formations for your army, and be able to choose from them depending on your opponent, the terrain, and the battle plan you have. There's too many units to think about to achieve perfect coordination at every step of deployment, so guidelines would help - nothing set in stone, but general ideas of what works against certain foes and what doesn't.
You probably have a number of them in your mind, but trying to formalize it may help somehow... or it may just create a bigger mess in your head and make you lose a couple hours!

But again, inspiration does not mean I have to or should mimic LM army. What is more, these are just vague ideas so I am not sure I will actually do it. In any case, I want to use MSU force but for me it does not mean all units have to be small. Hinge showed that it is perfectly fine to have more expensive regiments and still keep MSU principles in the movement phase.

The big difference, I believe, is the core skirmishing units. They are perfect for moving around Hinge's army and act as redirectors, small threats, annoyance... All with great mobility. HE don't have similar units, so mimicking the skinks cloud just isn't possible...
Inspiration is not imitation though!

It is a very good observation and I must admit I noticed I achieved the opposite effect to what I tried with my 2 characters. I wanted them to be less vulnerable in combat and don't slow down the units as they did before. Archie had to be protected and often I simply stayed out of combat. Bob had Reaver Bow and needed to stay put to maximize his shooting efficiency. I moved to Loremaster and BSB without a bow and ... I see less combat anyway as these characters are still fragile and I don't want to risk combat.

Just a question: do you ever put them in the Sea Guard or the Archers? If no, why?

[Swordmaster of Hoeth]

Hi Iluvatar,

Thanks a lot for your feedback! Don't worry about the delay. I know you had other things to do and I appreciate that you still came back with comments!

I was thinking about creating some kind of generic deployments in the way Hinge described his (Stegadon formation!) and I am sure it would help me out in the longer term. I added it to the "to do" list, maybe even as a separate chapter of the MSU - Observations.

It is good point about the fact that Skirimishers from the core selection may be the key to that particular style. The inspiration, however, may follow in the form of using core in small units and using special for bigger, more solid blocks. I believe a good example would be Tethlis list (if I remember correctly) that had small cavalry units in the core that were used for various support duties. It is not MSU force of course but has some elements of it and that is one way that seems to work for HE. Using core not only as something you have to have but something that has designated role in the army.

I actually do (as I showed in last report even if they kept jumping between the regiments) but it seems I do it less often. First, there is a temptation to have Larry with Lions with Standard of Discipline. Second, Ring of Fury has 18" range only so having Bob in the first rank is also pushing me to position him with the units that don't stay back.

I wanted to make them flexible but it seems that when I free myself from one limitation I end up with another constraint. Being aware of that should help to mitigate that though.

Cheers!