Boothy's Battle Blog - Updated 29/08/2014

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Boothy
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Boothy's Battle Blog - Updated 29/08/2014

#1 Post by Boothy »

Hi people. I have recently jumped on board with high elves after many years of gaming and thought I might try and get a battle blog going on here to chart my experience and thoughts as the army develops.

As you can see from the list below I like having plenty of medium sized units with as few characters as I can get away with (a recurring theme across all my armies, but high elves look like they might be particularly well suited to it...I'm excited).

Recently I have been doing a fair bit of theory hammering on ideas to deal with wood elves, and so the first game is the latest in a fairly sad string of losses to them (with a couple of wins thankfully!) using the culmination of ideas so far.

Games here in Western Australia are almost always uncomped, and tournaments generally use all the rulebook scenarios but with VP bonuses for blood and glory and watchtower.

Enough talk, more battle:

Battleline, 2400 points, High Elves vs Wood Elves

My High Elves:

Level 2 (high magic, ring of fury, dispel scroll) (soul quench, walk between worlds)
bsb (barded steed, lance, enchanted shield, dawnstone)
13 silver helms (shields)
13 silver helms (shields, banner)
21 white lions (banner, banner of the world dragon)
21 white lions
21 phoenix guard (banner, banner of discipline)
1 flamespyre phoenix
3 bolt throwers
2 eagles

Yordan's Wood Elves:

Level 4 (steed, high magic, fencers blades, 4++) (soul quench, walk between worlds, hand or glory, firey convocation)
bsb (spear, steed, enchanted shield, MR3)
10 glade guard (muso, trueflight)
10 glade guard (muso, trueflight)
10 glade guard (muso, trueflight)
5 glade riders (hagbane)
10 scouts (trueflight)
10 scouts (trueflight)
5 wild riders
5 wild riders
10 wild riders (shields, full command, banner of discipline)
2 eagles

Thoughts on the matchup:
While relived that I'm not facing shadow or death I am concerned about how the wild rider bus could blow apart any of my units bar the phoenix guard in a round or two is they get some protection counters on them first. I need to either shoot this unit down to a more manageable size or redirect and get a flank charge (but this isn’t realistically going to happen with re-rollable LD10 on the unit).

Besides that it looks like business as expected so I'll stick to the plan developed in this thread. One bonus was that there are very few hagbane shots in the list, so if I can keep the bolt throwers alive early then Yordan should struggle to take them out.

Deployment:
Image


Thoughts on deployment:
I broke the plan and didn't use one of the eagles to restrict scouting on my flank. This was because I want both of them in a position to gum the bus up or force the elves to waste time shooting them out of the way. It never even occurred to me that Yordan might deploy almost all the scouts so aggressively with such little space to fall back into. If I get the first turn I should be able to completely overwhelm them before they escape, and any failed panic checks will send them off the table....however if he is able to do enough damage to slip behind my lines I'm never going to get to the bows at the back while I try and chase them down.

Turn 1:
The wood elves win the first turn and pretty much just shuffle about a bit into range. The bus advanced slightly so as not to give me any long charges on it with the lions or helms on the right. The scouts in the bottom right ran forward to get ready to clean up my bolt throwers. Shooting saw most of the left helms killed, and an eagle on the right.

I now have the choice of committing to the various scouts and riders on the left while stalling the right, or I push at the centre. I don't think leaving that lot on the flank is a good idea at all and so I begin the move to the left. The phoenix lands to block the over run of the scouts should they kill the bolt throwers, and the infantry push up and left. The mauled helm unit moves up to try and prevent any units escaping through the bottle neck on the left.

On the right the helms move up fast. I want to either threaten the central archers while the way watchers are miles away or get a walk between worlds on them to bring them into the fight pronto. I though I had got the eagle in a position to block the charge (the diagram is rubbish for this), but the right hand riders may have been able to get round (we were not sure).

Magic saw the very left hand riders nuked by soul quench, and the scouts threatening the bolt thrower panic (sadly the way watchers passed). Shooting put a couple more panic checks on the way watchers but they continued to pass.

Image

Turn 2:
We decided that the bus was able to charge the right hand helms, so I fled and bounced through most of my army to the left of the battlefield. The bus redirected at the lions on the right needing a 10 on the dice and failed (leaving me with a 9 on the dice charge). I have made a mess of my diagram here because the lion unit with the banner and the mage failed their panic check for being fled through and fled to about the position shown. The scouts fail to rally.

I cant really remember what the eagles were up to.....suffice to say they didn't do anything just yet.

Shooting is rubbish with no wounds on the helms from the way watchers as they try to escape through the bottle neck. My other eagle is killed, and some glade riders show up and wound a bolt thrower.

Image

The high elf turn sees the mage + lions rally, the helms fail and keep running, but not quite off the table (curse you re-rollable LD8!!!) The phoenix sees off the scouts, and the depleted helms charge into the way watchers who hold the combat.

The lions on the right fail to make the charge on the riders......oh well their number was up sooner or later anyway.

The phoenix guard move up and walk between worlds sees them get behind the wall and dare the wild riders to charge them.

Soul quench destroys the glade riders.

Image

Things look to be hanging in the balance at the moment. I have taken relatively few casualties and inflicted decent damage but my combat units are horribly out of position/fleeing. I fear that my units are going to have to run at the wood elves one by one which is not the way to go about attacking a gunline! However they are my most resilient units, and the best wood elf fire power has been destroyed.

Turn three:
Over the course of turn three the right hand lions are vaporised by the rider bus. Annoyingly one survived the initial charge so I was unable to shoot them and they were not as pulled out of position as I would have liked.

The remaining way watchers charged the flank of my helms but the 2+ held strong, the way watchers continue to hold despite losing though.

The high elf units recover their position reasonably well and I was able to get a boosted soul quench off on the next unit of wild riders destroying them as well. This is a big result, not much to stop me just running at them now.

Image

Image

Turn 4:
An eagle charges into the way watcher combat, breaks my helms and runs them down. And to add insult to injury I didn't even managed to kill all the way watchers :-(

Shooting and magic sees a heavy toll taken on the phoenix guard.

The rider bus moves up to threaten my advance.

Image

I decide that the bus has to be tackled. I cant get past it, I have no cheap units to redirect it, and its worth all the points at this stage. Step one is to get the protection counters off......so the phoenix goes on a bombing run, and all the bolt throwers take aim, with a grand total of 4 casualties.

While this is going on the newly rallied helms move up at full speed. This gives Yordan the choice of shooting the phoenix to free up the riders (they will never get to charge anything bar it while it is alive), or shoot at the helms running straight at all his archers. He cant charge the phoenix because the overrun will give my lions his flank.

Image


Endgame:
The final moves of the game see Yordan kill the flamespyre outright with a boosted soul quench, and shift some units about with walk between worlds.

For some reason (hiding from bolt throwers maybe?) he didn’t move out of charge arc or range of the banner lions with his now rather depleted wild rider bus. Naturally I charge straight in on my turn five thinking I will tear them to bits, overrun into the archers and clinch the game.......unfortunately the dice say no, and I go on to lose three consecutive rounds of combat against the four remaining riders! This was partially my fault, I was so confident of wiping them out in a round that I split my attacks between the riders and the bsb (the level 4 went into a challenge with my bsb), a handful of wards later followed by a boosted hand of glory and the wild riders were ripping through my unit in the second and third rounds of combat as well. Thankfully I was able to wipe the riders out even though I couldn’t get either of the characters :-(

While this was going on the helms made a token attack on some archers who fled to safety after shooting a few more helms down.

I tried to panic of the rearmost unit of archers with the bolt throwers, but they passed their panic check.

Image

Image

The game ends in a draw with us finishing within 150 points of one another.

Post game thoughts:
That didn't play out even remotely close to how I thought it would!

As soon as Yordan deployed all the scouting units on my left flank I knew it was going to be an odd game where I would probably struggle to reach his backfield archers unless he failed a lot of panic checks. This was too risky in my opinion since I was able to make him take six LD8 panic tests, a LD6 break test, and two LD7 break tests for only one failure. Had the averages come up that flank could have collapsed a lot faster than it did. In addition, had this come up trumps, and I not failed my own re-rollable panic tests and rally checks my main army might have been able to completely sweep away the left flank before his bus could swing round to helm. I must admit I did not intend to leave space for the scouting units, but after seeing how it played out think it might actually be a worth while trap to set for wood elf players?

Speaking of the bus, I think the lions did a decent job of holding it up, since the bus either had to do and deal with them, expose its flank to them if they wanted to take the shortcut through the centre of the table, or take the long and safe round round the back of the impassible terrain which would have taken them a full two turns to get back in the fight. I think after destroying the lions Yordan should probably have used the bus to either sweep round my rear and clear up the bolt throwers (slightly risky because the bolt throwers would have clear shots at short range, and the phoenix would still catch them sooner or later), or simply retreat to the cover of his own archers. This would have allowed my to push at his rear left, but would have preserved the riders and thus still ended in a draw. Allowing the lions to fight could easily have netted me an extra 800vps (general and bsb) if I had put all my attacks into the riders rather than splitting them over the bsb and riders (even with the dodgy rolls involved), the riders would still have won the first round but simply wouldn’t have had the attacks to win/inflict enough casualties to even survive the second round....lesson learnt.

Of high magic:
I was both impressed and not with the high magic for the wood elves. Those protection counters are a right pain and without them the unit would have been destroyed before combat was even joined. I used a bolt thrower a couple of times during the game just to take the counters off them to stop them building up an immunity to an entire round of combat. I think in total I must have had to remove 6-8 counters before attacking them in earnest in turns 5-6.

While the high magic doesn’t have the game winning power of shadow or death it does bring some very handy anti horde capabilities to the list. Without I think Yordans list would have struggled massively against skaven, but as it is could probably have a good shot at it. The high magic was also able to pump his stags up to an impressive WS6 I6......frenzied stags striking before white lions and hitting them on 3+ really hurts!.......BS7 way watchers could be pretty rough as well. I certainly think it was a good lore to compliment the wild rider bus, its probably too fragile without it.

For me the level 2 was elf of the match claiming 2.5 times his own cost in enemies on his own, and contributing to several more. I do worry about what she will achieve in other games though since she has no safe bunker to hide in, and has no ward to try and survive combat. Other honourable mentions go to the bolt throwers who while claiming few points killed a lot of elves and forced a lot of panic checks (all of which were passed...grumble grumble).

The cascading panic was a bit of a problem. I think I need to get a banner of discipline in the list since a LD9 general would have seen the helms rally on their first try rather than flee a second time.

I can see the flamespyre becoming a frosty as the list evolves since it still brings a tough flying threat against the wood elves and is stronger in most other matchups. The flamespyre didn’t get to do much in this game, but that's primarily because of the silver helms surviving two rounds against the way watchers against all odds, had they been destroyed the phoenix was there as a backup so I think it has a place. It can also cover the table faster, more flexibly, and without fear of redirection in games where the wood elves don't risk the flank deployment. More games are required on that one.

Overall I was pleased with how the list worked. I was thrown a curve ball with the deployment and army was flexible enough to adapt on the fly. I need to get a better feel for how it works together but I'm still learning high elves so it will come. The right hand helms were a good example of this. I'm not sure if my baiting of the bus was a good plan, or if I should have deployed a few inches further back to allow myself to wheel behind the building into the centre if needs be......this would have created a horrible bottle neck, but might have turned out better than the cascading panic debacle.

Hope you all enjoyed it and maybe even found some helpful tips or interesting talking points.

Feedback on lists, tactics, and format is welcome.
Last edited by Boothy on Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jimmy
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#2 Post by Jimmy »

Nice work, great concept, good content, looking forward to seeing more.

How often do you game? When's the next tournament?
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sandstorm
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#3 Post by sandstorm »

I <3 you boothy. One thing though. Please don't post anymore details of games against Yordan unless you smash him 20-0.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#4 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

HI Boothy!

I was waiting for that report and I am very glad you wrote it so quickly! Thanks a lot for that! I have just finished reading it but I left your own analysis for later so that my comments are not biased.

I followed your topic on dealing with WE on wargamerau with great interest so it is even better when I can have a look at the actual battle!

As far as I know WA plays different style as the rest of Oz and that added to the curiosity. In particular, no comp environment scares many players in the East.

Army Lists

Your army is unique for sure. I think you should coin an appropriate name for that style now because I think it will be very inspiring for other players. First, absolute minimum of characters is redefined. It is no longer level 4 + bsb. It seems one can play very well without Ld9 or 10 general. I also remember you said that you have only recently added a wizard as you used to play without magic at all!

That definitely opens space for more warriors. Level 2 with high magic and a ring seems to be straightforward in use. 2 x soul quench per phase + whatever bonus spell you have should allow you to get one off. If you have more dice to use, you can use more on the bound spell, if less, they are not lost as you have few spells to cast. I run Loremaster so can testify that level 2 is not too bad in terms of dispelling. Scroll only adds to that protection. I am, however, concerned about your wizard because he still can die quickly and in this set up he immediately adds +100VP to the enemy for being a general. Do your opponents focus much on a witch hunt?

BSB with 1+ armor save and re-rolls has a good protection and that is all he needs for his main role - waving his flag!

5 combat units of medium size (cavalry is actually little more) look very interesting. They are capable of delivering good punch, either alone or in cooperation. They are generally quite well protected against regular shooting and since they want to get to combat asap it seems they can make it across the table.

I know that you used Sisters but you dropped them after encounters with WE. I wonder, however, if in general one unit of single eagle claw would not add to the flexibility of the shooting phase. Of course bolt throwers are very reliable and their longer range is a great asset.

I like the addition of the fliers as support. They can keep up the pace easily, hide behind the units and land where needed with much less space required. Flamespyre is very intriguing addition, I hope you are going keep it!

In general, my impression is that this is the army that wants to be aggressive, uses shooting and magic support to clear some enemy light troops or maybe even dent harder foe so that combat blocks can break them quicker. But I also know that this army needs to utilize movement phase properly and I wonder how do you do it with medium blocks that are less maneuverable.

Now the Wood Elves are tough. 50 true flight arrows + 16 waywatchers (I believe you forgot to add them to the army list :)) is something to be concerned with. As you say, no Shadow Magic helps a little. But if focused on a single target you may look at 10 wounds to save per turn from GG alone. Not a problem for the Helms but they will be targeted by waywatchers.

I wonder why Yordan decided to use True flight on Scouts. Often they come equipped with Hagbane to get the war machines easier.

I must say I like the Wild Riders block with both characters. They have similar protection from magic as Sisters that are usually taken for the bodyguards for the wizard. But are much more dangerous on the charge. The good thing is they are not as well protected from the shooting so that would be something to exploit. Although High Magic lore attribute is good idea to keep the alive too.

Now the interesting part is that this army has 7 deployment drops before characters but 4 units are scouts and 1 stays in reserves. What is more, 3 regiments can reposition through vanguard. Against typical armies that is enough to out deploy the enemy. True flight arrows are great asset here as the player can position them even behind other units and still get very efficient shooting.

Against your army it is not so obvious as you have 9 drops. Do you think it is enough to counter that advantage of WE army?

Deployment

I like your deployment but I think it was a mistake to leave the flank open. It may be just the benefit of a hindsight but the opening to the bolt throwers was very tempting to use. And it did force that dilemma upon you as what to attack.

On the other hand, the risk Yordan took was to spread his forces and risk panic checks without BSB or general nearby. What is more, that wide spread of units means he cannot focus whole shooting on single target. So using the fact that some of the units are far away and cannot shoot or charge without closing in can be used to the advantage.

That also looks to me as calculated risk because scouts do not count to deployment drops and Yordan had +1 to get first turn.

Just a question, did you consider deploying SH in 2 ranks? It may provide wider arc of sight thus making it more difficult for enemy scouts and archers to avoid being charged.

Turn 1

I am a little confused, was it the eagle near the fence that was killed? The right one seems to be still alive to fly close to the enemy?

I agree with the decision to move to the right to deal with the scouts and way watchers because these units were more dangerous at this stage of the game and you could slow down the units from the top. What is more, GG deployed there didn't have the range to attack you yet. Even if they did, they had to shoot at Lions or Silver Helms, bot protected against shooting.

However, I think there was no need to move Silver Helms nor eagle just yet. You were not treated by arrows, they were not that dangerous from this direction anyway. By just staying there you would force Yordan to advance more carefully as Silver Helms on the charge can hurt riders. They don't get re-rolls against them either.

Well done on killing Wild Rider with Soul Quench! Just another question here, why did you try to kill them with magic missile? What do you think about targeting waywatchers (those more to the South) and using bolt throwers to kill wild riders instead?

Turn 2

That rapid redeployment was not too bad :) It kind of helped you to avoid right flank regiments but fleeing is always a tricky business. It takes away time to re-group and that may be crucial.

A little unlucky to fail Ld8 re-rollable panic check on lions too. But that happens and one should try to avoid such tests if possible. I know it is easier said than done and in this particular case it was good decision to flee. However, as I have said before, I think that if you stayed with SH in the first place that would have been more beneficial.

What did bolt throwers shoot at this turn?

Turn 3

I was wondering what poor isolated lions could have done on the right flank and I came to the conclusion that fleeing would have been good option. They were dead already. If they were caught then at least Wild Riders are pulled into the open and still quite far away from the bolt throwers. If they fled successfully, wild riders would have no other targets to charge and would have been slowed down further. What do you think about that option?

Again, well done on Soul Quench! :)

Turn 4

Unlucky with the eagle charge. Sure, it had +2 to CR due to charge and flank but you had a chance to overcome that with some kills. Alas, in a game of dice things don't happen the way we want sometimes :)

I really like the decision about going for a big kill. First, the points are there. Second, depleted shooting of WE is not going to make as much damage as WR on the charge can do.

Of course much depleted Phoenix Guard could not withstand more shooting but it is a pity they died.

End game

Hindsight is always 20/20 but I agree, better to kill these wild riders. With each wound you reduce combat potential of the enemy by 4 attacks (2 from rider and 2 from stag). The riders keep striking first and have re-rolls. I understand the dilemma. BSB allows re-rolls but you have to win the combat first and getting these riders would make sure to do so. BSB dies if the unit flees so that was additional bonus you needed to win. With possibility to catch general as well. It was close! But it was a great game against tough army and very good opponent so that result is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, just the contrary!

I have now read your comments and ... that is one interesting thought about the trap for the WE player. People love to put scouts on the flanks no matter what. Maybe it can be too tempting and one could use to advantage? I didn't now Yordan had to take so many panic checks! That was indeed risky on his part. Definitely food for thoughts!

It is a very interesting observation about counters and bolt throwers. From the report itself it looked like bolt throwers did nothing and Yordan didn't cast any spells :) I really like the way it works here, more subtle than Shadow but ideal for great tactician.

On top of that your use of High Magic was much more direct and brutal!

I agree with the Standard of Discipline. I like to add it when I sport Ld9 regardless. It is a good addition for sure.

While Frosty is taken by many people and it definitely is a good support I wonder if flying over the units might not be an advantage here. A few wounds here and there while maintaining the pressure can help reducing shooting potential.

Thanks again for a very interesting report! I hope more will come, against varied opponents too.

Cheers!
Image

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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Boothy
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#5 Post by Boothy »

Thanks guys, good to know you are enjoying the report.

Jimmy – I game on average about once a week, but I work in the bush so there tends to be a gaming frenzy when I'm back in Perth and then a hiatus while I'm away. I also play a few other game systems, Warhammer takes most of my gaming time but sometimes I get into a real Infinity obsession that diverts me away for a few weeks.

I try to get to between 5-8 tournaments per year which is mostly dependant on the luck of how well they overlap with my breaks. There is one in three weeks which I might be able to get to, and one on the 13th of September which I can definitely get to. In the mean time I might try and write up a couple of my better games from Convic (one I can hardly remember, two were very one sided one way or another, and two were really good), or any interesting once as they happen along.

Swordmaster – phew, lets take this section by section :-)

I dont think my army is a particularly new concept, just a rarely used one. Back towards the end of 7th Andy Potter did a large string of battle reports on his “suicide elves” (dark elves with very few characters) despite a fair bit of success the concept never really took off in popularity. I pretty much picked up this style of army in 6th and stubbornly refused to put it down (except for a fair stint of MSU in 7th) since I just like units more than characters, and find the style fits how I like to play.

I have also really been enjoying playing without magic over the last year and a half (I dabbled with a lord of change for a couple of games, and ran Tetto Echo at one event, but that was all). Not having to worry about failing to cast or miscasting or protecting these expensive soft characters was very refreshing from a reliability point of view. I have been sucked back into magic since the wood elves though since its easier to protect the mages against them than our shooting units, and some ranged damage back at them seems to be very important for our game against them.

The cost and vulnerability of my level 2 is a serious concern. While she is handy against the wood elves she could be a liability against others. Having said that she is still relatively cheap. In other games I have tried a tricked out loremaster and teclis, in both cases they are as vulnerable/still quite vulnerable and worth a load more points to the budding assassin. In the long run if I want to include characters like that I think I need a proper bunker, otherwise that job falls to the lions or phoenix guard and its a horrible waste of their potential. I have some more games this week and I'll keep the list the same to see how it goes.

Pre-game stuff:
I don't think my list was even close to being able to cope with the potential for wood elf deployment shenanigans, after Yordan finishes regular deployment I can only really tell where his three archer units will end up after turn 1 (and the eagles, but unless he is going for an ultra aggressive strike with the riders they usually don't matter too much for the first turn). I am over stating things a bit here.....I could see that both flanking riders were deployed very wide, so they probably didn't want to reposition to the opposite table side, but they could still end up right down my flanks (indeed the left hand unit was in my deployment zone behind my army after turn one) or reposition into the centre. I think we just have to deploy to be ready for anything, and if possible threaten the riders potential end points (what kept the bus at bay).

I did consider going wide with the helms, but there wasn't a whole lot of space between the building and left hand impassable terrain, and I wanted to negotiate the walls without dangerous terrain checks (no point doing the wood elves work for them).

I think Yordan has gone with pure trueflight so he can focus on moving his units into the most frustrating places possible without compromising his targeting options. After being unable to deal with the bolt throwers in this game I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some more hagbane appear in the list though.

Early stuff:
You make a good point on the right hand helms. I was really unsure at the time if pushing forward was the right choice, or if I should just be holding the riders off in limbo. In the end I decided to go for it because:
- I though I could redirect the riders
- I thought the way watchers would finish off the others with no problem and I wanted to give them too many targets at once, rather than allowing them to begin working on the dragon banner unit.
- Pushing the helms up made walk between worlds a 'must dispel' spell for Yordan...this then let me get soul quench off on the wild riders. Had walk been cast it would have allowed my helms a turn two charge on his archers and scouts.

It might have been the wrong choice because:
- The phoenix could reposition to the left quickly anyway, and it only has to fight archers over there
- Walk between worlds (boosted) would still have been a must dispel spell since I could have zoomed straight through the building to the centre of the table
- The bus would not want to be charging the lions at all, if they didn't manage to kill all 21 in one phase then the helms could have hit them in the flank.

On turn one I wasn't in range to soul quench the way watchers so the riders were the only choice. Even so, I would do the same if they were both in range. When playing the wood elves the way watchers are the more apparent threat, they shoot every turn, are hard to catch etc so the temptation is very strong to blast them first.......however in all the games I have played against the wood elves now (5 or 6 I think) the best results have always come from killing the wild riders as fast as possible, otherwise they become a serious counter charge problem on turn two or three and I start having to move carefully (rather than barrelling forward at full speed) or maybe even fleeing their charges!.......since the magic phase comes before shooting that's when the first attack on them starts.

The right hand eagle was indeed shot first.......the distances in the diagrams are a bit of, so the left had eagle was able to get roughly where I showed it ending up.

Turn 3:
After the riders failed their redirect my first instinct was to move my lions back and flee (would put me 17” away from them before their charge) however I would have been within about 5-6” of the table edge so would probably have fled off anyway. As it was I saw the opportunity to cripple/destroy the bus with a lucky charge from an essentially doomed unit so went for it.

Endgame:
Yes the allocation of attacks on the rider unit was a shocker of a choice, one I will not be making again! Ah well, that's what practise games are for.

I'm not very good at recording the 'background' effects of shooting or magic. There seems to be a fine line between too much detail and too little. Yordans magic did a reasonable amount, fiery convocation did a lot of damage to the phoenix guard, and walk between worlds did a bit that I have forgotten to put in the report (shuffling archers into less dangerous positions), but I think mine probably had more of an impact outside the protection tokens due to better targets.
necroyp
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#6 Post by necroyp »

This is a good summary I was the opponent.

I made some critical mistakes (still learning). Stacking the left side was a bad move I should have stood back for a couple of turns and not risked the ld tests.

Also placing my general and BSB on the right flank another bad move as they spent most of the game playing with a white lion unit and not supporting the centre.

In the end not moving the bus and allowing the white lions to charge them was a big mistake which I could have easily avoided.

Good solid game which ended pretty much in a draw which is good work on Karl behalf as I think his list will struggle in a rematch. I liked the bus with high magic but I think death/shadow is the way to go.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Boothy

Apologies for long post, I hope it didn't scare you or other forum members from posting their comments either now or in the future. I really like the game and the report and this is the way I try to learn from it. Besides, you took time to write it up so it is only fair to take time and comment as best as possible! The aim was to add to the discussion but unfortunately no other member of the forum contributed. :( Please, don't be disheartened and keep posting in the future!

I believe that variety is very important. While people my search for one list to rule them all I think the hobby grows better if there are different paths to explore. Otherwise, you may go to the event, for example, and end up playing the same army no matter which player you face. And that leads to stagnation. Hence, it is good to see something really new or less popular.

I remember Andy Potter and his suicide elves, it was inspiring approach, even if not many players followed his example.

In terms of army choices in general and characters in particular, it seems that as long as you have a good understanding of their strengths and weaknesses it is up to you to get the best performance from them. It might not be straightforward, it may be risky, but if you enjoy that style, no reason not to do so!

Deployment is a very important phase of the game, no matter if you play with many or few drops. I guess when you know you are going to be outdeployed there is a need for some generic formation. I have noticed that some players, if in that situation, hug one flank and try to storm through it with refused flank deployment. It allows them to worry only about one side of formation while at the same time pushing hard on the strong flank. Against WE army with many units it may mean that some of the regiments are too far to contribute immediately and there might be a chance to catch some of them first before turning to the threat the other pose.

It is always easier to see things on the diagrams and on the maps so I appreciate your input on the decision making with SH. Indeed, one could expect the leftmost unit to be killed in the meantime. I guess the good thing is that both options are sound you just need to make sure that the enemy cannot go around your diverters and you can keep pressure on the other units.

Because of that I would not call it a wrong choice but would try to remember it as a good option and simply try to find out what may be a better call in particular situation. Who knows, maybe next time you would find what you did a more viable tactics.

On Wildrdiers. They seem like a huge threat but I wonder if they are as dangerous when their numbers is decreased. Sure, charge of 5-6 of them brings a lot of pain but what if there are 3 of them? Against your units there is a chance they can be killed with returning attacks even if they still kill a lot. Also, possible constant bating them with frenzy charges where they don't really combine their attacks or even fail some due to long distance may be helpful.

Thanks again for answering all the questions and please, keep the reports coming!

@ necroyp

Great to see the point of view of the opponent so thanks for adding your comments too!

I must admit it still looks like WE you field are in a better shape to tackle that game. If you add shadow/death then it looks like a standard WE list people seem to use now, maybe with the exception of having sisters instead of riders for bigger unit. Btw, apart from magic lore, do you intend to experiment with other choices the book offers or are you happy with the list as it is?

It is a tough army for many opponents and might not really win you many friends if they are not up to a challenge of taking on fast WE army with deadly potential.

In the context of the game I wonder what could have been done if you did deploy centrally with characters and their unit as well as with less risky scouts positioning.

So, any chances to see some more games from you two soon? :)

Cheers!
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High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Boothy
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#8 Post by Boothy »

No problem at all Swordmaster, I like the long responses! I have been on break over the last week so haven’t been checking the forums all that often. I’ll certainly keep posting up games, at the very least it helps me consolidate my thoughts and evaluate the games more.

I have another game against wood elves to post up, finished the diagrams last night, and a game against ogres where I make a whole load of horrible noob mistakes (the guy has a massively extended family, I blame excessive distraction!) I’m also going to post up the game I had vs Gentile at Convic because it was a really good game, and I can still remember most of it….while the details of the other really good one (against Shaun Hogan’s vamps) are fading.

Necro and I are able to get games on a semi regular basis, usually depending on how tournaments and family commitments line up with my time in Perth. You will certainly see more games between us in the future……although it’s a good time to test ideas so some of these games can be very one sided when one concept or another doesn’t work in practice!

On wild riders – yes if you can reduce their numbers and then line them up against a mid strength unit they should be ground out. It gets rather dicey when 2-3 riders charge into less than ten of our elites. If we can repeatedly bait the riders that’s great, its certainly something the wood elves don’t want and puts more pressure on their shooting.

As for refusing a flank against the wood elves (delving into pure theory here), I think it would depend on how the wood elf player wants to play their riders. If they want to use them early as an offensive first strike and harassment unit, and as a result deploy them late to get the best matchups as soon as possible then the refused flank could work since you will know where more of their archers are going. If the wood elves want to use the riders as a turn 3-5 counter punch unit then they can be deployed early, using their mobility to redeploy to where they will be required in later turns. This makes the refused flank a lot harder to pull off since we don’t know where their army will be e.g. if we deploy left refusing the right and all the wood elf archers deploy right and central we are going to have a horrible long diagonal slog across the table while they have loads of space to flee back and sideways into.

I really want to try the star dragon at some point, but with true line of sight and no comp on cannons I think it’s only going to end in a giant lake of my tears.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#9 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi Boothy!

Great to know the new reports are in the making! Looking forward to reading them, no matter which one is going to appear first. Would be nice to see pillow fight against Nick's HE too!

Cheers!
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Twitter @SwordOfHoeth

High Elves MSU - Observations
Rabidnid wrote:Are you seriously asking someone called Swordmaster of Hoeth why he has more swordmasters than white lions? Really?
Boothy
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Re: Boothy's Battle Blog

#10 Post by Boothy »

More wood elves for you. This one was on universal battle against someone who's name I have forgotten.

Level 4 (steed, death, doom and darkness, soulblight, fate, spirit leech)
Bsb (steed, hail of doom)
Level 1 (steed, death, caress)
4x10 glade guard (trueflight)
2x6 scouts (hagbane)
3x6 wild riders
1x7 sisters (banner)
2x8 way watchers
2x1 eagle

I was using:
Level 2 (ring of fury, scroll, soul quench, fiery convocation)
Bsb (barded steed, heavy armour, lance, enchanted shield, dawn stone)
2x13 silver helms (shields, one banner)
20 white lions (banner, banner of the world dragon)
20 white lions (banner, standard of discipline)
20 phoenix guard (banner, gleaming pennant)
3x1 bolt throwers
2x1 ealge
1 frosty

A slightly different take on the gunline this time. This list has a more traditional sister bunker for the characters to hide in but all the important components are still there (at the expense of a scout unit, and the characters were very light on items).

The mission was blood and glory but modified to give a 750 point bonus to a player who breaks their opponents fortitude but remains unbroken to turn 6. This is neither here nor there for me. The enemy bus holds enough fortitude to keep him unbroken, and unless he makes a horrible error/gets some bad luck and gets caught by the frosty I should never catch it. On the flip side at least I get to start 3” closer, and he can’t deploy right in the corners! My army by contrast has significantly more fortitude, but it’s contained in units/characters that he has a realistic shot of destroying.

The plan of attack will be pretty much the same as last time. I don’t want to leave space for flanking scouts this time though as I can start 3” closer and want to use this to really push at them……in addition with a very safe character bunker the general and bsb could relocate quickly to the flanks and prevent panic.

Deployment
I lost the roll for deployment and got handed the side with the large bit of impassable terrain in the centre. This was very concerning as it will prevent me deploying in a line in the centre. I either have to start deploying units behind one another (not great when you have to run at a load of trueflight arrows) or I spread out far too much.

Spreading out would go against the plan so I resigned myself to deploying the non-banner lions in the centre behind the phoenix guard. My last two drops were the left hand helms and dragon banner unit. I was delighted with deployment! The late drop of the helms has ensured both they and the dragon banner unit are opposite the main cluster of archers. I’m not sure if my opponent chose the right side of the table to deploy in or not. The right hand flank would have been harder for me to attack, but would have greatly restricted his firing zones once he starts falling back, and might seriously inhibit where the wild riders are able to go.

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Turn 1:
The wood elves take the first turn and decide that a pretty boring shuffle is the order of the day. The bus moves over and up to get good bubble coverage, and get into range for some snipes/hex’s. The right hand wild riders move up and hover on the flank……..I’m not bothered, the frosty can take a charge from them if needs be.

I was able to block doom and darkness (don’t want to know anything about that this close to the table edge!) but had to let a soulblight and caress through. Thankfully I lucked out and didn’t take wounds from caress (lesson learnt…….NEVER leave the bsb out of the dragon banner unit against death magic even if the resulting coverage isn’t as good – some coverage is better than a dead bsb with no coverage!)

Shooting wasn’t too bad, a few helms bit the dust from the various glade guard, the way watchers shaved a rank of the dragon banner lions, and the scouts took out a bolt thrower, but overall it was nothing like as bad as the shadow powered shooting. I was slightly surprised that the way watchers shot at the dragon banner lions rather than the helms, but I guess since they were in a good position my opponent needed to whittle them down quickly to a point where the wild riders could destroy them.

My move was not surprising. Everything gets shoved forwards at full speed. The frosty decides to face down the right hand riders and the glade guard. It has no good targets on the left and I can’t see any reason for my opponent to move some there. If I’m lucky he will feel threatened and charge the riders in to try his luck.

In magic my six dice skillz pay off and I power through a boosted soul quench destroying the left hand riders. Shooting pings a way watcher or two.

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Turn 2:
With my army closing in fast my opponent decides to run backwards and sacrifice a scout unit to the helms on the left, and an eagle to the helms on the right and the final eagle to the banner lions. The right hand riders refuse to fall for my trap and run round behind the impassable terrain to threaten the centre.

Magic sees a 6:2 or 6:3 split on the dice. I decide that this is the crunch turn where I’m either going to start overwhelming the wood elf lines in the next turn or I’m going to break and the attack falter. As such I us my scroll and block both doom and darkness and soulblight, but curse of anrahire is cast on the non-banner lions.

Shooting sees the wood elves focus on the central helms and eagle. The helms are reduced to four models and both eagles are killed. The loss of the eagles is a shame since they are so good for chasing things of the table or charging into flanks, or redirecting wild riders. Their deaths are unavoidable but at least the divert arrows from my helms/lions at this critical juncture.

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My opponent has left the phoenix guard with a flank charge across the lake into the blocking scouts. It’s a 12 or 13 inch charge so if he flees I’m not going to make it, however if he flees it leaves the four strong helms in a prime spot to start ripping into the assorted archers in the backfield. I addition if he holds the helms have 10” overrun into the next lot of scouts. My opponent elects to hold, and I make it in with the phoenix guard.

The phoenix flys round to block the wild riders on the right. I decide to give them a rear charge option since this allows the phoenix to face the main cluster of archers and stop the wild riders zipping round into the centre and threatening me again. At this point they can either risk a fight against the phoenix (and cop a flank charge from the helms in my next turn if they hold, or run back over to the right where they are far away from the fight.

Convocation makes it through on the wild riders and between that and the bolt throwers four of them are destroyed.

Fighting is excellent with the helms making the over run into the glade guard, and the phoenix guard closing the distance on the main archer cloud with their own overrun.

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Turn 3:
The now crippled wild riders are the next unit to be thrown under the banner lions. The right hand riders charge into the frosty, and stuff shuffles around trying to get out of the way somewhat, or at least provide paths to flee into that don’t lead straight of the table.

Soulblight goes off on the frosty but doom and darkness is dispelled once more.

Shooting sees a fair dent put in the non-banner lions and the way watchers ping a few more of the dragon banner unit.

The frosty takes a wound or two, deals a couple back, breaks and is run down.

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Rest of the game:
My right hand helms charge into the rear of the wild riders, destroy them, then stand around guarding my army’s flank just in case the sister bus decides it might be clever to charge any of my weaker units in the flank. They can’t get past LOS of the helms so retreat to the far corner in the final turns along with the right hand glade guard.

The left flank is a mopping up operation at this point. Magic claims a few more way watchers and the phoenix guard get the remainder fleeing to ensure the dragon banner unit is in no further danger. After that the three elite infantry blocks and the remaining helms rush in and wipe the wood elves out (over a couple of turns due to the single remaining wild rider being used as chaff).

The game ends with me having lost the frosty, both eagles, and a single bolt thrower. My opponent has lost everything bar one unit of glade guard and the sister bunker. Unfortunately said bunker is worth 700ish points so I end up winning by about 1150 points, a good solid win but not a massacre.

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Post-game thoughts:
The thing that really surprised me was how much less death magic hurt than shadow. This may in part be due to my opponent splitting his dice more of less evenly between doom and darkness and soulblight meaning I could always dispel one of them (doom and darkness). However in hind sight it does make sense. Soulblight is pretty much half as effective as withering (arrows end up wounding on 3+ against all the elves rather than 2+, and 6+ against the frosty rather than 5+), in addition while doom and darkness is a terrifying prospect it doesn’t actually destroy units and gain victory points. Had my opponent powered that through each turn he would be doing less damage over all and only stalling my advance……and at LD5-6 I’ll pass those tests from time to time anyway. Part of the reason for not six dicing spells was probably that he had no miscast protection on the level 4 (I was slightly appalled by how much stuff was squashed into this list – 3 units of wild riders and a sister bunker and 16 way watchers and scouts and all the trueflight arrows in the world!)

I think this game illustrates what can happen if we as an opponent get the deployment right. While blood and glory works in my favour I only start 3” closer, and the archers were still able to retreat right into the corners before I caught them. As such I don’t pitch battle deployment would have changed anything. The thing that made the real difference was being directly opposite the targets. Not having to move diagonally with the infantry blocks meant they were threatening charges on turn 2-3 rather than 3-5.

The frosty was far more useful than the flame spire. Being able to park it in front of the wild riders was really useful for containing one unit while blasting the others. I’m not so sure this would have been so helpful against a shadow setup though with the threat of withering and mindrazor. Despite this I think the frosty brings too much to other matchups so I think it will be permanently replacing the flame spire (for the foreseeable future at least).

I am still concerned about LD. The centre is OK’ish now with some banner help, and if the bsb is around then its fine. However the helms tend to end up on the flanks which either leaves one or both with no LD assistance at all depending on if the bsb goes in the centre or not. Running them on the same flank with the bsb is an option, but always seems like overkill/not using them to their full flanking potential when it actually comes to the gaming table. I guess at 13 strong they aren’t exactly vulnerable to panic most of the time anyway…….this non-cold blooded psychology stuff is rubbish! I don’t like it at all!
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