HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#1 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Greetings!

Our own Darth Sabre offered me a chance to play at his place so I jumped at the opportunity to play some garage hammer! Oh, and this game is dedicated to Mr. Nick "The Short Shorts" Gentile from the Dwellers Below since we ... played on Wednesday! :)

Darth had some options to choose from as I know he has experimented with a few different army lists recently. Last time we played against each other at CanCon 2014 he had cavalry prince themed force. He opted to field a similar list this time as well. In fact, I think this army was tougher. Here are the details:

High Elves - Army List

Cavalry Prince, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone
Archmage, Level 4, Talisman of Preservation, Book of Hoeth - Lore of Life
BSB, Barded Elven Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield, Dragonhelm, Ogre Blade
Mage, Level 2, Barded Elven Steed, Crown of Command - Lore of Beasts

10 Silver Helms, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears, Bows, Musicians
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Spears, Bows, Musicians
14 Archers, Musicians

23 White Lions, Full Command, Standard of Discipline

Eagle Claw
Eagle Claw
Eagle Claw
Frostheart Phoenix
Great Eagle, Swiftsense, Shredding Talons

Let's have a look at the army list with more details:

Prince - well known cavalry prince. S7 magical attacks with ASF hurt a lot. It is probably an overkill for whatever I can throw at him but he is good warrior. He is well protected against traditional attacks but lack of ward save on such expensive and still fragile model is a weakness to exploit.

Archmage - another trademark of original cavalry prince army, life archmage, to make these fragile elves tougher, regrow them and heal the characters or even frosty. Defensive by nature, against deathstars it has Dwellers. Well equipped with Book of Hoeth and well protected by Talisman of Preservation. The fact he is on foot tells where is he going to be, well protected by White Lions :)

BSB - another cavalry character, to accompany the prince and deal the damage with his S6 magical attacks, retaining ASF as well. Two characters, who keep hitting consistently and with high S are going to kill stuff for sure!

Mage - beast cavalry mage has two roles to play. Make the bus to hit harder and to make it effectively stubborn. He hides in the second rank so he can't be targeted in close combat.

Silver Helms - Character delivery system. They are good as knights can go and they can add to the damage but their main role is to keep character safe and let them do the killing. From my personal point of view I like the fact that they can be targeted by searing doom!

Ellyrian Reavers - this time Darth took bows and he even told me it was due to our previous encounter where I managed to win the clash of light cavalry due to bows! :)

Archers - Good support unit, they can hurt my infantry on their own and against Swordmasters and Lions can even help in close combat. I find it pretty hilarious :D

White Lions - good anvil for the cavalry hammer. As long as these two units are together it would be very hard to defeat them. In particular with Life Magic turning their flesh to stone. In order to tackle that regiment I needed to fight them with Swordmasters, preferably from flank with at least one of them. If I could add Sea Guard or Archers to the equation I would have had a chance to grind them down. But I definitely need to separate them and keep them isolated for as long as it takes to finish them off.

Eagle Claws - battery of 3 is tough. If they can focus the fire. Fortunately for me Eagle Claws are ballistic skill based war machines. So I had to use terrain and the fact I have more units to try and get to them asap as otherwise they would inflict enough damage to my units to render them inefficient in combat.

Frostheart - adds greatly to hammer + anvil set up. Again, as long as they cooperate and don't get divided they are hard to defeat. It can actually take on many of my units on its own. But that may be the undoing as well as I can hold it for a while, as long as t-stomps are not killing my entire units that is :)

Great Eagle - Darth decided to upgrade it with ASF and AP so it was interesting thing to see especially as I did the same with my eagle :D

In general, Darth has a good aggressive army, he has advantage in combat as long as it is one vs one. His "stubborn" units are not going to run anywhere as long as BSB is alive and even without it he can still relatively comfortably go into combat. His support is also very dangerous as 3 eagle claws and 14 archers can destroy my units one per turn. The good thing is that his magic is defensive or supportive in nature so at least I didn't have to worry about magic missiles.

I took the army that in its core is still the same but with a few changes here and there:

Outcasts - Army List

Larry the Loremaster, Book of Hoeth, Dragon Helm, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon
Bob the BSB, Dragon Armor, Golden Crown of Atrazar, Shield of the Merwyrm, Ring of Fury
Nasher the Noble - Dragon Armor, Barded Steed, Enchanted Shield, Star Lance, The Other Trickster Shard

15 Archers, Full Command
15 Sea Guard, Full Command
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows
5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spears, Bows

5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dragon Princes, Musician
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician
10 White Lions, Musician, Standard of Discipline
10 White Lions, Musician, Gleaming Pennant

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Great Eagle, Swiftsense, Shredding Talons
5 Sisters of Avelorn

The main changes are in the character's equipment. Larry got the Icon because I could spend 5 points. Noble got Star Lance back and the Shard to be able to get these pesky ward save characters. Bob got the Ring of Fury to be able to have more magic missiles and to be able to direct them at different targets, not necessarily visible to Larry at the same time.

My idea was to slow down the 3 big regiments (bus, lions and frosty), possibly dividing them in the process. I wanted to use my higher number of units to get to eagle claws and archers as I expected his hitty regiments would move forward to hunt my units down.

Provided I can do that quickly and with acceptable casualties I might even have a chance to hit one of the three hard hitters.

Deployment

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Deployment of the armies before the vanguard

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Weighted flank deployment on both sides

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Deployment after vanguard - I didn't :)

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Darth Reavers vanguarded!

The Archmage got: Earth Blood, Flesh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Regrowth

Level 2: Wildform, Flock of Doom

Surprisingly I won the roll off and got first turn!

Outcasts - Turn 1

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Moving fast through the center

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Shooting - not that impressive

Outcasts moved through the center to cover the distance to the unprotected enemy shooters as fast as possible. Units on the flank were a little bit more cautious. The shooters aimed at both units of enemy fast cavalry but in a display of poor marksmanship none of the exposed reavers were fully destroyed!

High Elves - Turn 1

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The hammer on the move

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Shooting - reply in kind!

The Prince gave the order to march towards the enemy in a wide outflanking maneuver. Solitary reaver found himself in the company of 2 of his freshly resurrected companions and headed towards the war machine of the opposing army. On the other flank second unit moved around its adversaries and let the eagle claw on the hill speak. Loss of 3 warriors unnerved the survivors who fled.

On the other hand, eagle claws and archers managed to kill only a few Lions. Clearly, their lion cloaks being responsible for limiting the casualties.

Outcasts - Turn 2

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Reshaping the battle line

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New formation established

Swordmasters and Dragon Princes with the Noble formed a single line, ready to intercept any of the enemy units if they broke their formation and move too close. At the same time Lions and second unit of Dragon Princes moved towards the shooters, getting close enough to attempt the charge soon.

The shooting and magic were a little bit better, as on the left flank enemy reavers and one eagle claw ceased to exist but the right flank still disappointed.

High Elves - Turn 2

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Turning towards the center

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Advancing slowly

Cavalry ignored enemy light horse but made sure not to expose its flank to the eagle claw on the hill, effectively slowing down the advance. White Lions benefited from the Life spells in addition to their protection against missile fire.

Remaining shooters targeted enemy Lions but three survivors of the barrage refused to panic. Archers, confident that that unit is not a threat anymore, shot at Swordmasters instead.

Outcasts - Turn 3

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Battle for the Pass

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First charges

White Lions charged the eagle claw and destroyed the war machine quickly. Nearby Dragon Princes charged through the forest but the venom thicket slowed them down significantly. Fortunately, they didn't suffer any casualties in the treacherous forest.

On the far right flank Sisters and Reavers still could not deal with enemy fast cavalry but at least inflicted some casualties. Sea Guard moved from the tower but could not hit the eagle claw on the hill. Even magic ring of the BSB did absolutely nothing.

High Elves - Turn 3

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Big Three divided

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Flight of the Phoenix!

The Prince decided the single war machine behind his back is too much of annoyance and directed his whole unit to destroy it. In the meantime White Lions guarded his back while Frostheart swooped down to attack the Archers. They surprisingly inflicted two wounds with stand and shoot reaction but were not lucky enough to get any additional wounds in close combat. They did, however, hold the big bird.

The Archers decided to charge heavily depleted Lions who performed tactical retreat :)

Outcasts - Turn 4

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Thin blue line

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Cavalry Hammer

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Finally clearing enemy fire base - well, almost! :)

Dragon Princess redeem themselves and this time successfully charge through the forest and destroy the last eagle claw. Lions catch the eagle and prepare for the charge against the Archers. Even the Sisters finally managed to hit as they were supposed to and enemy fast cavalry was no more.

On the other flank Larry the Loremaster helped Archers as much as he could. The frostheart was made even more frosty (Edit: It has just occurred to me that I forgot to use lore attribute here #-o ) and shadow magic made it fight less efficiently but wild blind stomping did the job. Brave Archers still held the line!

High Elves - Turn 4

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Cavalry charges!

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and overruns behind the enemy lines!

Cavalry Prince charges depleted archers, freeing the Phoenix and overrunning behind the enemy lines. White Lions keep the safe distance. The Archers, knowing offense is the best form of defense charge the Swordmasters but can't make it through the water.

Outcasts - Turn 5

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Enemy isolated but still very powerful

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Phoenix is caught by the Noble!

Wounded Phoenix attempts to fly away to the safety but swift attack by the enemy Noble catches it in midair and pins to the ground with his magical lance. Phoenix crumbles to the frozen ash.

Ellyrian Reavers and White Lions attach the archers in the perfect coordination but they horribly miss with their attacks and Archers manage to hold the line! (Edit: they were still steadfast)

High Elves - Turn 5

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Only the most powerful units remain

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Archers flee

Archers can't hold the line anymore and flee but are not yet caught. (Edit: I made a mistake here as I reformed Lions without ranks thus allowing Archers to be steadfast. Unfortunately, they failed their Ld8 break test and fled anyway.)

Cavalry had no target to charge so they just reformed facing the center while Lions backed away despite being tough as stone!

Turn 6

Not much was left to do in turn 6. Reavers caught fleeing archers but Lions were too far and too tough to attack so the regiments focused on securing safe positions. In his last attempt Larry cast Spirit Leach irresistibly and to my surprise and Darth's horror, the cavalry Prince was dead! His cavalry unit had no opportunity to avenge him as an eagle blocked the path to any other target.

With that the game was concluded. High Elves won! :)

After-battle thoughts

I was very happy with the result because this is not easy army to defeat for my force at all. I think Darth made a few mistakes that helped me to get better result but I also made a few mistakes and I was lucky they didn't backfire. Let's start with the things that I believe helped my cause.

1. Dispersed fire. Darth had 3 eagle claws and significant amount of longbows to inflict the damage on my small units. In his first turn it was justified that he targeted my rightmost unit as it was a significant threat. But after panicking them I believe he should have focused the fire on a single unit and destroy it. The reason for that is to simply get points but also force panic checks nearby.

The first charge of the archers was a mistake, I know Darth though I would have held with 3 Lions but I had no chance to stay alive in that combat. Besides, by fleeing I made sure Archers were in no position to avoid double pincer attack. The following turn charge was also tempting but fighting in the lake would deprive the unit from ranks and being steadfast so that was a little risky too. Thus 2 turns of shooting were wasted. I believe that first - finishing the small lions and second - swift reforming and shooting at light cavalry, would have helped his cause better.

2. Slow advance on the flank. We were aiming at the same goal, to destroy enemy shooters. The problem was that Darth had much more resources deployed on the flank where I had relatively few shooters. Withdrawing the eagle was probably a mistake as he could have used it attack the war machine. Even frostheart was a better choice here. By charging eagle claw with his entire unit and 3 characters he helped me to slow him down even further.

His Lions could have advanced more aggressively. That always put some pressure on me. In particular that they were toughened often. Of course it was easier for me to let that spell go when I had no chance to get into the fight but it was even more of a reason to move forward and make my decision making more difficult.

Turning towards my units faster and obscuring line of sight to flank shot with frosty or even eagle would have been better in my opinion.

3. Fast cavalry. I think they could have played as reserve instead. If they were kept alive and in second line they would have disrupted the plans further. They could intercept some units or even diver them if needed. I was unlucky with my shooting as being exposed like that they should have died turn 1.

As I have mentioned I made mistakes and I am glad there were no consequences of that.

1. Deployment - if Darth had first turn my left cavalry was in great danger. Lucky me but I should position them better. I also think Archers should be in the tower instead of Sea Guard.

2. Not being aggressive enough. First, Dargon Princes on the right should move further to be able to charge turn two. I was unlucky to fail 6+ charge turn 3 but I waited too long. I didn't have a good plan on the left flank how to tackle big units and only thanks to too careful approach of the enemy I had time to get to the shooters. I didn't use my potential with 3 combat units at all.

3. Exposing flank of the entire formation. Even with the water in between that was probably the most crucial mistake. I need to focus more on the bigger picture as this is yet another example of tunnel vision that I was punished for before. :(

4. Not a mistake but a comment. Ring of Fury - 18" inches is short. Unless this item is on highly mobile hero it is going to be very hard to get it in range if at the same time you have a pedestrian hero that needs to be protected. Or I simply need to play better :)

I would like to thank Darth for great hospitality and great game! I am sure he will get me next time and I hear he is preparing his Ogres to avenge skinny Elves :)

Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Swordmaster of Hoeth on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ether Dude
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - deployment

#2 Post by Ether Dude »

Hooray another Swordmaster report! I'm looking forward to it.

Quick question, it seems like the Noble Nasher is over equipped to the tune of 60 points in his 50 point allotment. I assume he's meant to be carrying the sword of might? If not, are there nifty campaign rules in place or something?

As for your enemy, it's interesting that he took dragon armor and the dragon helm...tbh, I'm not sure why...

As for the game, it's interesting how you both deployed in a similar way with your combat power opposite the enemy's shooting power. I think this is to your benefit as you should be able to flee infinitely, stalling the advance of his large units while his shooting is static and therefore easily taken. I expect units will quickly overrun their respective shooting elements which will leave you with a substantial advantage in board control, hopefully translating into a large combined charge on the white lion bunker. Loremaster pressure on the enemy helm bus will be quite cool.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - deployment

#3 Post by Ferny »

Ether Dude wrote:Quick question, it seems like the Noble Nasher is over equipped to the tune of 60 points in his 50 point allotment. I assume he's meant to be carrying the sword of might? If not, are there nifty campaign rules in place or something?
I'm not seeing it - are you putting the dragon armour into the magic item limit here?

Right - deployment and predictions. I think you're right that if he stays tight with his big three he'll be a tough nut to crack.

1. vs High Elves I've found reavers are vulnerable. There's always a T1 gamble if you decide to push them up (as your opponent has) - if he gets it then he might be able to sneak into your backline on the right...not sure what the plan is on the left...but if not he should get pin cushioned (sisters+reavers+seaguard right, RBT, archers and reavers left). In fact, I kinda think they should get pincushioned anyway. The only awkward thing would be if (and it's hard to tell from diagrams) his right flank ones can get south of your sisters (who'd need to reform, might have a wall in the way but are probably short range - if you don't panic them they'll be frustrating).

2. His RBTs...I can see two approaches here. One is to push fast on your right flank with reavers and DPs to behind the wood (probably close range but soft cover); hope not to panic, then charge through the wood and hope not too lose more than 1 to DT. Sometimes this works brilliantly and I remind myself why I hate using RBTs (so unreliable). Sometimes it works terribly and they shoot you to hell and I remember to take better care of my fragile elves ;). But maybe you have to do this because the alternative is too slow?

The alternative is to stay hung back. Can the one on the hill see over that forest or does it give cover (TLoS doesn't show well on diagrams). Your sisters are long range and cover and the building helps lots too, plus lions on the front rank to absorb some shots. If you moved Sea Guard into the building would they have range on EC2? As it's out in the open even with T7 it should go down to a couple of turns of shooting (poor old 2W), possibly combined with your own RBT. Maybe try to outshoot EC3 with archers and RBT, although maybe the eagle would be a higher priority if it comes out into the open. Mind you, if T1 shooting is vs reavers (and Larry looks poorly positioned to MM them), you wouldn't be able to prioritise RBTs til T2&3, by which time his left flank will be well and truly onto you.

Or do you ignore them completely and focus your fire on other targets?? I sort of feel they need to be dealt with though because if you're going to want to reposition your line diagonally from bottom left to top right then you'll be very vulnerable to them if you don't.

3. The Big Battle!
a) re-direct...a bit tricky with a flyer, but you've got reavers and eagle down there and they might be able to benefit from cover items as they move into position. By contrast, I think his reavers are toast, though he still has the eagle.
b) As I've discovered to my cost, lions are vulnerable to ASF troops, so your archers should do well here (as you note). Equally, they'd provide ranks vs frosty which might help to break him if he doesn't kill too many on thunderstomp. I think they're a great asset down there in that corner. I also like the idea of assassinating the Lv4, though frustratingly 3W and 4++ can sap attacks. Still, relatively soft target so probably worth it in a lot of cases.
c) if you can shut down his shooting then you've got the troops to wrap round his flank relatively weak right flank (i.e. the centre - east of his lions)...but if you fail to wrap round him then I don't think you'll win any combats head on.
d) flee! It might be possible for you to set up a huge conga chain of double flee moves (especially if you reposition your line to not be on the board edge) which could frustrate the hell out of him. But I'm not sure it gives you an advantage, it just delays the inevitable fight. Unless you have troops wrapped round to take advantage (see c) then I'm not sure this is of benefit - though of course a tactical flee or two (rather than all-out flee) might fit into your plan.

Hmmm - so a lot of words spilled and here's what I reckon I could have just said from the start: if you can neutralise his shooting then that gives you access to a strong south-left/north-right battleline, from which you can try to wrap his flanks. If you can't then I think he'll eat you head on...but I'm not 100% on your best strategy for dealing with the shooting...
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - deployment

#4 Post by Hinge »

looking forward to the report.

I have to agreee with Ferney. More and more as I run into BS based armies, I am droping my fast cav back behind my lines.

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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - deployment

#5 Post by Ether Dude »

Herp derp, ignore me. Read dawnstone/enchanted sheild/star lance.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - deployment

#6 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

Thanks a lot for your comments! It is great to see that the teaser earned so much interest already!

@ Ether Dude

Cheers! I will do my best to create remaining maps and write it up soon!

As to the question it seems you had the answer already! :) Would be nice to have these re-rolls for sure!

I will ask Darth (maybe he can reply by himself too!) but my guess would be he simply did it automatically. Unless he really wanted that 6++ ward save too!

Against armies like the one Darth fielded I have to buy time to deal with the shooters. If I don't they are going to kill my small units eventually. Terrain helps a lot here but it is passive, it does not solve the problem entirely. So I have to act. In order to do that I need enemy combat troops occupied.

Darth was kind of forced to keep his units together. Something I have observed with other players as that is the way they protect themselves from being outflanked. Due to terrain there were only 2 areas large enough to accommodate Lions and Silver Helms so that the can stay close to each other and cooperate. When it was clear that Darth is going to place them on the flank I immediately focused on the opposite side.

That is the consequence of having more units. I have a general plan but it depends on the enemy deployment and I can alter it accordingly. Thanks to that I could place majority of the regiments on one flank and use that advantage to mount an attack on the shooters. Was that successful? Well, you need to wait for the report :)

@ Ferny

Thanks a lot for detailed feedback! It is always great to have it!

1. Support units are very important for both of us here. Darth risked here less than me (if I moved them forward) because he had +1 to get first turn and would be able to move fast behind my lines. On the other hand keeping the reavers alive would help him further to prevent my more numerous units from engineering that multiple charge.

Because of that I wanted to use my still considerable shooting (and magic!) to deal with fast cavalry and eagle as soon as possible. That was also the reason why I didn't vanguard as that potentially gives some options for T1 charges. However, I must admit I did miss Shadow Warriors here as they would have been perfect to block reavers on the refused flank and stay close to eagle claw while benefiting from the woods proximity.

2. My plan was to attack eagle claws with different weapons. I wanted to move my fast units to attack them but I also wanted to do so with Lions so that they can soak up some damage due to lion pelts and provide cover for Swordmasters. At the same time I could reach EC2 with Sae Guard in the building while also having good 360 degree visibility to help against reavers on the flank. The problem I found was that if I moved DP fast they would expose their flank to EC3 too. So I had to position them carefully.

In any case you are correct. They have to be dealt with quickly.

3. We both started with reavers in terms of placing units so it was hard to guess what goes where at that stage. From the point of view of completed deployment it was indeed not good for the reavers on my left flank. I think I also should have withdrew my own fast cavalry at this stage but at the same time I was concerned I might be exposing the eagle. Didn't want to risk losing it to eagle claws and panicking archers.

The ASF vs GW+ASF makes it so much more interesting in the games between the elves and that is also what makes me keep Sea Guard. In fact, I think I should have swapped Archers with Sea Guard as Archers would have benefited from being in the tower more. Of course against big three there was no difference who is fighting anyway. But yes, I like the fact I may have quite a few re-rollable attacks as they can make a difference against Lions or similar.

I know from experience that Swordmasters would be able to grind the Lions head on provided I can do something about Flesh to Stone :) But yes, I needed to deal with shooters fast to be able to threaten the big three.

Fleeing is an option but as you noticed it is not that great as it moves the units away from combat. I did that last time at CanCon and indeed, Darth was not happy :) But if that buys me time to bring more units to the fight then I like to keep that option.

Well, the description can be long sometimes but the advantage is that I know where you coming from and why did you reach these conclusions! So I appreciate the fact you took time to explain it!

@ Hinge

Cheers!

Yes, I was actually not happy I positioned Reavers in the front line or didn't withdraw as I felt too exposed. The cavalry on the right flank was in better spot though. However, I wonder if it were not better to start with infantry placement this time and position fast units where they could do the most damage. And keep reavers protected too!

Thanks again for the comments!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - deployment

#7 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

hi guys!

Just letting you know the report is finished!

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#8 Post by Ferny »

Nice one...so...comments.

Exciting stuff to see your centre and right rush forwards. I also loved seeing your new battleline form.

I agree that you should have pushed your DPs harder - there's nothing gained by keeping them in a neat battleline in that circumstance.

Shame it took you so long to finish off the light cav, but such is BS shooting sometimes. At least they didn't cause you any serious problems.

Interesting idea - would you consider charging reavers into the rear of the frosty? I don't think you take champs with them do you? But I saw a game on Curu's board where a champ conga rear charges his frosty getting static res of +3 and only 1 guy will die, so at worst you're looking to force frosty to test on a 7...neat trick. Probably too risky without champs but I thought I'd share :).

I did feel at first, when he rounded the trees on T3 that your forces going after his backfield ought to have been re-enforcing your main line - that you'd missed your chance. Your line looked very weak against what he was bringing! But it looks like you made absolutely the right call!

I agree with all the mistakes you call. I wonder how it would have turned out if he'd ignored your one RBT (how much damage could it do anyway?!) and pressed in with everything together? As it was, his lions never did anything, his wizard hardly did anything, his massive bus basically just killed an RBT and frosty just got picked off. But if they'd all come in together - well, I don't know how it would have gone, but it would have been tougher for you.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#9 Post by Ferny »

Actually, it just occured to me what a threat your two piddly swordmaster units would have posed to him, with more attacks and higher WS, and him with a vulnerable Lv4. While I think they pale in a lot of match ups due to shooting vulnerability, your combined arms approach really shines here. I'd be nervous about losing them to shooting but you managed to shut that down excellently, which left them free to come into their own. I know when I was experimenting with MSU I couldn't bear to not have them - it is great having so many attacks!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#10 Post by Hinge »

Well done SM-

You covered most of the analysis. Your first turn shooting was shockingly inefficient! Time to get those elves back to the archery range for some practice.

I was a bit disappointed in the Sisters performance. I feel they should have been able to shoot off the Reavers pretty quickly (killing two a turn). Did you think about running them 2 wide to narrow the wheel? They can wheel nearly 180 degrees in that formation. You do risk some of the models being out of range.

When the White Lions charged the Eagle Claw, why did you not wheel towards the Archers prior to contacting the warmachine? Warmachines do not have any frontages, allowing you to contact the warmachine in any manner you wish within the confines of your 90 degree wheel. You could have performed a 90 degree wheel towards the archers near the end of the charge, barley clipping the Eagle Claw. This would give you the option to over run towards those archers. Looks like it would have needed a high roll but you never know.

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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#11 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for your comments!

@ Ferny

I really hope Darth will find time to comment on the game from his point of view and to compare it with your remark on Swordmasters. I don't have to convince you that I see them as useful in my army, in fact, I would love to have more :)

What I need to do is to use them more aggressively so that there are more examples of how they perform in close combat. I had some successes with them in the past but it was always when I was bold and attacked with them. It paid off to be patient but ultimately, they need to seek combat in a very active way.

I was very happy I managed to hunt down all the shooters as I also had games where failing to do so had dire consequences as you can imagine.

@ Hinge

Thanks!

Yes, I was very disappointed with the shooting phase. I think I need to spend some time on practicing dice rolling :) In general, I didn't roll well with to hit rolls and to wound rolls at the same time. Sisters in particular, with their BS5 and S4 should be able to take care of small fast cavalry unit on their own. Ah well, the good thing is that it didn't prove to be crucial in the whole game and hopefully the average rolls will be back!

It is very good point about them in 2 x 3 formation. I saw it but I didn't think about the wheel advantage. Thanks a lot, that is going to help to mitigate their lack of musician.

Another good comment on White Lions. I had a chance to wheel but somehow decided it is not going to change anything and just run straight. I need to play more often or at least regularly to avoid such missed opportunities. That potential overrun would have been great here.

Well, you addressed the game from my point of view but since Darth is also a member of the forum and he used High Elves, what would you do in his place in order to tackle pesky MSU? :)

Cheers!
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#12 Post by Hinge »

I would also be interested in his perspective.

I like Darth’s basic plan. Shooting in the middle with a strong flanking force often is a solid deployment. This tends to force opponents to move towards the shooting and expose a flank or turn towards the flank threat and keep the shooting alive. You had enough units to do both. However, I think you actually do not outnumber Darth on the flank (on a unit v. unit, not by models) by enough and you could have been in trouble if he pushed harder.

My critique centers on the use of the Reavers.

One of them was deployed to far out on the flank, in this case ER1. Knowing that he would have been weighting one flank over the other, the first drop should have been a Reaver in the center who could have moved left or right as he decided which flank he would push.

He then could vanguard behind his lines for cover and as he approaches your line with his flanking force, use them to get close and set up charges that are favorable.

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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#13 Post by Nicene »

Why did you charge the Phoenix with your Noble? It doesn't add up to me--hitting on 4, wounding on 4, ward save. You're unlikely to wound it even with the star lance. It seems like a hopeless charge... but your opponent decided to flee, so what am I missing?

Even if you beat it by one, he's looking at a 9 rerollable break test.
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Re: HE MSU - 2400 vs Cavalry Prince HE - 30.07

#14 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

As always, thanks for comments! :)

@ Hinge

Thanks for assessment of Darth's plan! I do hope he is going to find time and add his comments too, I keep asking him for that! :lol: I am sure he reads the posts carefully and trust me, he learns and it is harder and harder to design new tricks for me!

@ Nicene

That is quite harsh and authoritarian statement, my dear Nicene :lol:

I disagree with your criticism. Please, note that Frosty was already wounded. That makes any combat more risky. Then, he has 5+ ward this round. While great it is not as good as 4+ and not a guarantee that the hits will be saved.

Next, you missed the fact that the bird was charged from the flank. So yes, Ld8 with re-roll still looks good. Another thing you missed is the positioning of the units. Please, have a look at the picture in High Elves - Turn 4 where the situation before the charges is shown. As you notice, my own Dragon Princes can be added to the charge. That is at least a banner to CR. Since DP could charge from the front another flank was open for the charge from Swordmasters. And I still had an eagle to block avenging Lions if I wanted too.

What is more it is before the magic phase. Please, note I managed to get miasma and iceshard on it the turn before. That further increases the chances of hitting it. Wildform was also an option. Basically, it was in big trouble once Darth decided to overrun with his bus. At worst, I would have pin it down with my own cavalry.

So, I am afraid "hopeless charge" is unjustified judgement here.

The question is, should Darth flee in the first place?

Cheers!
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