Asure of the White Coast -- Army Blog

[Purplesounds]

I've recently gotten back into fantasy after a year long break. I'm a veteran dark elf player but I had sold them off to buy a motorcycle. I had three armies in my closet that were all half completed Tomb kings, Demons and High Elves. I tried the kings and demons first only to be extremely unsatisfied with how static the armies played. After coming from years of dancing around with flying units combined with a solid game in every phase playing armies that were slow and not possible to flee with just seemed a bore. I felt I was just reacting the best I could to every opponent instead of making them react to me. Thus I dragged out the High Elves. Two games later I fell back in love with fantasy.

I've signed up for the local GT in Little Rock in September which already boasts about 90 registered players. The tournament is to be played at 2200 points with kind of an interesting comp. Every army has a list of units (generally weaker units) and if you take these units you get bonuses to your overall score at the end of the tournament. The way it works is you get +1 point to your overall score for taking one of these, 2 units +3 points, 3 units + 6 points, and 4 units +10 points.

For High Elves the list breaks down like this.
Lords/Heroes = Dragon Mage, Sea Helm(nonBSB)
Core = 15+ Spears, 15+ Seaguard
Special = Lion Chariot, 2+ Tiranoc Chariot, Skycutter
Rare = 2+ Great Eagles, 8+ Sisters of Averlorn

So the idea I want to do is take one of the heroes, core, special and rare selection while still making one of the best lists I can so I still have a competitive army while getting +10 bonus points to my overall score.

Here is the list I've come up with so far.

Archmage, Lvl 4, Book, Ring of Fury, High magic
Noble, Bsb, Mundane things, flaming banner
Seahelm, Reaver bow, Potion of str
5 reavers, bows, muso
5 reavers, bows, muso
18 archers, muso
18 archers, muso
12 archers
20 seaguard, fc
sky cutter, bolt thrower
sky cutter, bolt thrower
sky cutter, bolt thrower
3 bolt throwers
2 eagles

Archmage = is for trickling high magic, magic defense to popping light skirmisher units.
Noble = is for making one unit flaming to knock out regen and normal bsb functions.
Sea helm = is for killing chaff and chariots as well as one turn monster, disc, Demon prince hunting.
Everything else is pretty self explanatory.

[Purplesounds]

Game 1
High Elves

My list as above.

His list
AM, Lvl 4, Shadow, scroll
Noble BSB, (can't remember magic items)
5 reavers, spears
5 reavers, spears
18 archers muso
18 archers muso
30ish white lions, fc
30ish pheniox guard, fc
tironac chariot
2 bolt throwers
frost chicken

Cody normally runs dragon prince heavy cav high elves but wanted to try something different. We both had similar lists, but I had a full 10 comp points and he had none. This game took place a couple of days ago so I can only give a vague recollection of events and high lights.

His deployment from left to right went something like reavers, frosty, white lions w bsb, archers, bolt thrower, phoenixes, archers, bolt thrower, reavers, chariot.

My deployment from left to right was reavers, eagle, archers, sky cutter, bolt thrower, skycutter, bolt thrower, seaguard, bolt thrower, archers, archers, sky cutter, eagle, reavers.

I have yet to learn the spell names by memory yet but they were magic missile, 10" move, reverse miasma, flaming str 4 big spell.

His magic was miasma, enfeebling foe, mindrazor, withering.

Game highlights
I managed to kill his frost chicken on my left flank with combined shooting on turn 3 and it managed to kill the 12 man archer unit and an eagle. One of my fast cav and his fast cav danced around all game both units ending with two models. His white lions did nothing all game. The white lions managed to kill one bolt thrower and then I redirected them and use crafty between worlds to keep them walking. I moved a bolt thrower 5 inches to get out of their way and then made them move an additional 10! I killed both of his archer units one with nothing but magic in 1 phase, 4d6 str 4 hits and the 6th spell. I never touched his bolt throwers. By the time the phoenix guard made it to my lines they had 9 models left. I then had them on two flanks and and in the front for three rounds of combat only to have the game end with 1 surviving PG!!! Cody rolled an insane amount of 4++ saves. The tiranoc chariot had one wound remaining on it. I danced around his chariot with a sky cutter and reavers 3/4 of the game. My archers killed his lvl 4 in h2h! I left my sea helm out of a unit thinking that a 4+ look out sir would some how save him from 2 bolt throwers. I was wrong.

After thoughts. I feel I should have killed the chicken one turn earlier but that's dice. I messed up by not throwing the sea helm in a unit against another high elf shooty list. My list has has amazing deployment potential. 2 eagles, 2 reavers, 3 sky cutters and I haven't placed anything to let the opponent know where my fire base is going yet. I really love that aspect. I feel there is too much redundancy with the archers and maybe even one sky cutter. I'll play a couple more games before I start dropping things. Shadow magic isn't that great against this style list. Int tests? Elf. Mindrazor? Most things wound my units on 2's or 3's anyway. I think the army is still lacking something though, so I will be reorganizing the list.

[John Rainbow]

Interesting idea for a tournament. I believe it is following the South Coast GT (SCGT) format in the inclusion of weaker units for additional BP. You could try looking for some SCGT blogs and army lists for ideas about what to include and how.

I'm interested to see how your list evolves as you play with it.

[Malossar]

Have you considered dropping 7 archers from one unit to squeeze in that last bolt throweR? I'd take the 6str4 or single bolt over 7 archers anyday!

[Alcibiates]

One thing to note that for Rock Wars, those two eagles need to be a squad together to qualify for the battle point bonuses.

[Purplesounds]

@john rainbow- Great I'll definitely have to check it out.

@Malossar Devonshire- I think you're right. I'm considering dropping the twelve archers and a skycutter to get a small unit of dragon princes. I'll tinker with the list later and see if I can't find something that works for me.

@Alcibiates- Crap! You're very right. That hurts the list indeed. That gets rid of a redirector and makes one worth a lot more.

I had a game recently against WOC nurgle monster mash. Ill write up the report soon. Thanks for the input so far.

[Purplesounds]

Game 2
Nurgle WOC

My list hasn't changed yet.

His list
Demon prince, lvl 4, Nurgle, regain wounds, +1 to hit, charmed shield, wings
Bsb on foot
18x warriors, nurgle, halberd, shields, fc
18x warriors, nurgle, halberd, shields, fc
5x hounds
5x hounds
chariot (the beast one)
2x chimeras, regen

Highlights
I started out in a spread out deployment to try and minimize his overrun potential. The 3 flyers could single handedly destroy my army if I could not stop them with my magic and shooting. For this type of match up alone I like having that flaming bsb in a unit of archers. The game started with him getting first turn. He proceeded to more everything up full movement and keeping his prince behind a chimera for cover. He cast a nurgle spell that did d6 str 5 hits d6 and then a toughness test or another d6. ect. The spell killed roughly 15 archers. My turn 1 I shot everything I had and managed to get the chimera down to one wound. I also destroyed the +1 to hit sword on the prince and did 2 wounds to him. WOC second turn saw the prince charge a unit and I fled off the board to avoid him doing wounds and heeling the 2 wounds I had already done. My lvl 4 died to the prince and a bolt thrower and sky cutter to the chimeras. The three monsters were unengaged for my next turn and I managed to kill both chimeras with shooting as well as get a bolt thrower on the prince and the d3 was a 1 so the prince lived. By this point in the game his warriors on foot were at my front door and managed to mop up my army after I stalled them a turn with chaff.

Afterthoughts
We both decided that our lists as they are is a crap shoot. If I get 1st turn to get an additional turn of shooting or a couple to good d3's on the prince I win. If I don't he'll walk over everything I have. It doesn't create an over fun game when the whole game is dependent upon just a couple of crucial dice rolls in pregame and turn 1 and 2. The 12 archers in my list seem to be redundant as I already have a good small arms fire base. I really feel that 3 sky cutters could be cut down to 2 with out loosing too much from the over all play style. I think if I had in a 6x dragon prince unit with a banner and BotWD I would have a counter punch unit. I could also use these to tie up a demon unit or any other magical threats to my army. I would also create a close combat deterrent I could hide among the archers and bolt throwers.

New list. I don't have exact points on me but something as follows.
LVL 4, book, ring, high magic
noble, bsb, flaming banner, mundane equip
5x reavers, muso
5x reavers, muso
18x archers, muso
18x archers, muso
18x sea guard, fc, sh
2x sky cutters, bolt thrower
6x dragon princes, std, BotWD
2x eagles
3x bolt throwers

[Axiem]

New list. I don't have exact points on me but something as follows.
LVL 4, book, ring, high magic
noble, bsb, flaming banner, mundane equip
5x reavers, muso
5x reavers, muso
18x archers, muso
18x archers, muso
18x sea guard, fc, sh
2x sky cutters, bolt thrower
6x dragon princes, std, BotWD
2x eagles
3x bolt throwers

Interesting list, but it seems like there are a couple things you could change around to make it function better.

Firstly, why no give the BSB the Reaver + PoS and then upgrade one of the units of Archers to Sisters of Avelorn instead? The points are very similar and you get a lot more shooting potential out of it, especially considering you're over in Core by quite a bit.

6 DP is too small to make BotWD worth it IMO; just take 2 more Knights and you'll be better off in nearly every circumstance, or else take a small unit of Lions (18ish) with the Banner. The other option is just to keep the unit cheap, and then use the points for more stuff elsewhere.

I also think if you're going to take a list like this, you have to go all-in on the Bolt Throwers to make it worth while. If you play against any sort of Knight Bus for example, you're going to need every bolt in order to get to the expensive characters which will make the investment worth it.

I would suggest something along the following:

Archmage, General, Level Four, Lore of High Magic, Book of Hoeth, 275
Noble, BSB, Dragon Armor, Charmed Shield, Reaver Bow, Potion of Strength, 155
Mage, Level 1, Lore of Death/Fire/Heavens/Metal, 80

2x 5 Reavers, 160
18 Archers, Musician, 180
27 Spearmen, Full Command, Standard of Discipline, 288 (Can also be Lothern if you're stuck on them)
3x Skycutter, Eagle-Eye Bolt Thrower, 360
6 Dragon Princes, 174
4x Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, 280
17 Sisters of Avelorn, High Sister, 248

TOTAL: 2200

Also note, 1 Skycutter + 6 Dragon Princes = 18 White Lions, Standard, Banner of the World Dragon if you want to go that route. Gives you two units (Spears, Lions) that can hold, at least for a little while, if you are closed upon really quickly (and/or don't get the first turn). Just fiddle some points in characters or Core if you want to give them Champion + Musician.

I also think the Eagles, while probably worth it, aren't necessarily points well spent at this level. I'd either make the Spearmen smaller (12-15 to serve only as a character bunker) and take more Reavers if you really want the misdirectors, or else use the points to get more "stuff" that can actually kill things; Bolt Throwers especially.

Because I dropped the Eagles, I was able to fiddle in a Level 1 Wizard, the Third Skycutter, and the Sisters which can help fill any of the gaps you're encountering. The mage in particular can still act as a misdirector when needed but helps contribute a whole lot more for the points and leverages good magic phases a lot better than the Khaine's Ring.

Thoughts?

Axiem

[Alcibiates]

I'll jump in as a fellow attendee of the Rock Wars GT, which is where the funny comp is coming from:

Rock wars has four sections of bonuses from which bonus battle points are awarded (lords/heroes, core, special, and rare). If you take a bonus choice from each section, you are awarded scaling bonus battle points. For one selection, you get 1 point. 2 awards 3. 3 awards 6 4 awards 10.

So, for high elves the Lord's section is a special character not named alarielle or teclis, or a NON BSB noble or sea helm (maybe a handmaiden is an option, I don't recall).
Core is 15+ Spears or sea guard
Special is one of the chariots (two if tiranoc)
Rare is 2+ eagles as As a unit, or some arbitrary number of sisters... I think it's 8 or more.

So, axiem list, while probably a stronger list, scores a +6 on comp ( no lird/hero). seems OP is looking for the +10 bonus, so we need to work back in a noble or sea helm that is not a bsb.

[Purplesounds]

@Axiem- I agree with most everything you said. As Alcibiates said though the unusual comp is what is making me take less than optimal units in some slots. The tournament is an old school style GT meaning that battle accounts for a third of your overall score as well as sports/comp and painting. I'm a pretty solid painter so I think I'll be fine there. So based on the scoring I believe that a 4-1 or a 3-1-1 list will get just as many points in overall as a 5-0 list. Using the comp I'll be getting an additional 10 bonus points; This will make up for a lose alone. I'm also thinking that if you take something perceived as too hard your sports or comp may get hit taking away from the full battle points that may have just been attained. I want the list to be as good as I can get it while still creating something my opponent has fun against and getting max points for the bonus comp. So units like the 15+ seaguard will have to stay.

@Alcibiates- You summed that up quite nicely. I'll look forward to seeing you there.

I've been further pondering the rares as I'm not a huge fan of the two eagles in the same unit. It defeats the purpose of a re-director or sacrificial unit to stall a threat by giving up too many VPs. I could drop the eagles and take a unit of 9 sisters to get my full comp points. Thoughts?

[Axiem]

Maybe I'm missing something but this...

New list. I don't have exact points on me but something as follows.
LVL 4, book, ring, high magic
noble, bsb, flaming banner, mundane equip
5x reavers, muso
5x reavers, muso
18x archers, muso
18x archers, muso
18x sea guard, fc, sh
2x sky cutters, bolt thrower
6x dragon princes, std, BotWD
2x eagles
3x bolt throwers

...is +6, not +10 yes? Eagles, Skycutter, Lothern is three choices as opposed to Sisters, Skycutter, Spearmen, still three choices. If you absolutely want to go for a +10 list, post that one up and I'll give my feedback on that, but I can only respond to what you've posted, not what you're planning on posting!

So units like the 15+ seaguard will have to stay.

Why exactly? If the pack is 15+ Lothern/Spearmen, why take just the min amount to get the bonus without utilizing the units to their full affect? 15 Lothern/Spearmen do next to nothing in nearly every circumstance; only by making them larger do they stand to do much at all. For this reason, I would suggest thinking through exactly what role you want them to play, if you decide to field them.

In the case of Lothern, I'd say play them like a big unit of Archers. In the case of Spearmen, I'd say consider using them either as a) character bunker (LD10 Bubble: least recommended because of point wasting), b) as a Tarpit to protect your squishier elements for a turn or two, or c) as a Flaming Block that can break Regen on Trolls and the like for your DP / White Lions. In each case, their formations / unit sizes will look different and you'll want to adjust accordingly, but in each case you'll be spending the points much better.

It's worth note that unless you feel comfortable playing from behind in 4 other games (besides the one you foresee losing), it's likely better to optimize your list for those 4, instead of wasting 100ish points on a character whose only purpose is to offset a loss.

Also, might be helpful to link to the comp pack so posters can review it exactly: seems like there's a bit of discrepancy between exactly what's in the pack! Is it 2+ Eagles or 2+ Eagles in a single unit for instance? Finally, how many points do you get for W/L/D: if it's something like a 20-12-5 system, it doesn't makes sense to waste 100 points to only get +4 Tournament points.

I'm also thinking that if you take something perceived as too hard your sports or comp may get hit taking away from the full battle points that may have just been attained.

If that's the case, I'd suggest the 6 Dragon Princes + Skycutter option for sure. I don't think any reasonable opponent would mark your list down as "too hard" when you're taking 3 Skycutters, Spearmen, a small unit of Dragon Princes, and no Banner of the World Dragon, White Lions, Cav Bus, or Phoenix to be found.

That being said, the style of list you've gone for isn't particularly fun to play against, regardless of what you're taking. If you're not planning on getting into combat and just shooting and magic-ing your opponent down, some players will take issue with that, regardless of the slight difference between 2-3 Skycutters and 3-4 Bolt Throwers. I don't call that "hard" or "unfun" but some players will throw a hissy-fit over not letting their supped-up Chaos Lord into combat, and you may get marked down in accordance.

Axiem

[Purplesounds]

@Axiem- You raise some interesting points. First let me address the list; I completely neglected to include my reaver bow, PoS Seahelm. This would make the +10 points. That was my fault completely. Trying to help with an army list where the OP only writes what he intends on posting can probably be annoying, so I apologize for that but every time I have enough free time to post I'm not around my list I've created with the points values and specific numbers. I can assure you that annoys me just as much as it can annoy others.

The 15 seaguard/spearmen. I have not intentions of including just one unit of 15 of one or the other. I said 15+. I'm open to running a unit of 76 spears if I thought it would create a good list. I just feel that in the points I spend on spears for a combat block could be better spent on specials as a dedicated combat block. With archers and reavers being great in the core section I don't think that spears will ever really be worth it unless you build a list to specifically use them and their numbers as cheap (elf) infantry. I plan on using the 18x sea guard as an archer unit with a 5+ save for the lvl 4 to bunker in.

As for the 100 points for the character, I haven't made a firm decision yet. He isn't completely useless. He's great at picking off the last 2 to 3 wounds on a monster. A monster left alive, especially a flying one, can single handedly destroy my flimsy battle line. So if he can snag the last wounds off that 250 monster and save 300 points of elves from being slaughtered hes definitely contributed to the overall battle. That being said I'm sure there is stronger options for the list. I just really want that ten points... What can I say?

I agree with the army not being fun to play against for some armies. (close combat armies for example) My newest list, which of course isn't anywhere near me, has the bsb mounted and a unit of 11x dragon princes with BotWD. The unit will be used to stop nasty magic weapon wielding characters and a hammer unit to finish off units that get too close to the battle line. It will also provide a deterrent for armies just marching straight at my lines with impunity. To get the DP's I dropped two of the sky chariots and the 12 man archer unit.

I'll try and get a actual list up soon tonight or tomorrow. Maybe some pictures to accompany the list. I've got to start painting after all.