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Team Tournament Preparation Blog
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Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Hello, and welcome to this ETC Team Tournament blog! Myself, Dark reaper, Strange and Rusty are going to a 4-player team tournament in November. We intend to use this blog to detail our way there and hopefully make it interesting enough for you to read and comment while doing so :)

.::. Table of Contents .::.

  • High Elves (Olannon) - click
  • Warriors of Chaos (Olannon) - click
  • Dark Elves (Dark reaper) - click
  • Warriors of Chaos (Dark reaper) - click
  • Dwarfs (Strange) - click
  • Tomb Kings (Strange) - click
  • Ogre Kingdoms (Rusty) - click
  • Wood Elves (Rusty) - click
  • Battle Reports, Pairing Training & Sample Army Lists - click
  • Pairing Thoughts and Ideas (this post)
  • ETC General Restrictions (this post)

.::. Pairing Thoughts and Ideas .::.

As a team, the maximum you can score for a round is 60-20. That means that even if all 4 players win 20-0, the result for that match will be 60-20 instead of 80-0. This impacts the way armies should be chosen and how pairing should be performed.

Pairing is as follows:
Team 1: A B C D
Team 2: E F G H

Team 1 puts out A (opener)
Team 2 puts out E (opener)
Both teams show their armies, i.e. A and E, at the same time.

Team 1 puts out B and C vs E (counters)
Team 2 puts out F and G vs A (counters)
Both teams show their counters, i.e. B and C & E and G, at the same time.

The teams then choose the matchups they want. I.e. Team 1 decides whether A faces F or G, while team 2 decides whether E faces B or C. The army you are left with on your hand, i.e. D for team 1 and H for team 2, faces the declined counter. For example Team 1 chooses to let their opener, A, face counter F. This leaves Team 1`s D to face counter G.

We believe in a balanced approach and our initial thoughts are to have 2 defensively oriented armies, and 2 offensively oriented ones. Based on armies played and preferences, myself and Dark reaper will play pushers while Strange and Rusty handle the defensive ones. We all keep 2 fractions as options, which in total gives us a great deal of variety and combinations.

For each army, we are looking to have no more than 1, or 2 at worst, truly terrible matchups based on fractions. To achieve this we have to make a few assumptions of course, but the idea is to make lists that are flexible. Since the even isn't until November, we have plenty of time to playtest and will actively seek out matchups we see as good and bad to test our theoryhammer and tune the lists and fractions.

.::. ETC General Restrictions .::.

Quote:
Army Composition, Draft 3.5
1. Rule changes

• Up to 2 Characters per unit can get "look out sir" against the following spells: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation and Dreaded 13th. Normal requirements for Look Out, Sir! apply.
• BSBs can take all the equipment their unit type has access to as if they weren't BSBs. Wood Elf BSB can take kindreds and do not lose their longbow.

2. Magic Restrictions

• An army may use up to maximum 12 power dice during each magic phase
• A player can never use more than 5 power dice to cast a spell, no matter the source. For the Lore of Death and the Okkam's Mindrazor spell, this is lowered to 4 power dice.
• Apart from Winds of Magic, an army may only generate up to 2 additional Power or Dispel Dice per magic phase (including channelling). Any extra dice above this is discarded and lost.

3. Team restrictions

• A team consists of 8 players, each of which with an army from a different army list
• A team may not contain more than 2 armies with 3 or more Lore of Death spells. Beastmen and Tomb Kings do not count towards this limit.

4. Army Building Restrictions

• All the Army building restrictions are applied only during the creation of the roster, and may be ignored during the game (for example, by joining characters to units or creating new units)
• The army lists allowed are those from any of the currently published GW Army Books, and The Legion of Azgorh from Tamurkhan. No other unit or army list may be used on the event.
• Special or Named Characters are not allowed
• Fozzrik’s Folding Fortress may not be taken.
• Units cannot be more than 60 models nor 450 points. This does not apply to characters.
• All army sizes are 2400 pt, except when specifically stated in brackets.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

.::. Battle Reports .::.

#23 - (cav)High Elves vs Dwarfs: clicky
#22 - Dwarfs vs Dark Elves (short synopsis): [u]clicky
#21 - (cav)High Elves vs Daemons of Chaos: [u]clicky

#20 - (cav)High Elves vs Daemons of Chaos: [u]clicky
#19 - (sd)High Elves vs Shooty Ogre Kingdoms: [u]clicky
#18 - (sd)High Elves vs Lizardmen: [u]clicky
#17 - (cav)High Elves vs Skaven: [u]clicky
#16 - (cav)High Elves vs Skaven: [u]clicky
#15 - Dark Elves vs Shooty Ogre Kingdoms: [u]clicky
#14 - Dwarfs vs Warriors of Chaos (short synopsis): clicky
#13 - Dwarfs vs Dark Elves (short synopsis): clicky
#12 - (cav)High Elves vs Bretonnia: clicky
#11 - Dwarfs vs Chaos Dwarfs: (written from CD perspective) clicky

#10 - (cav)High Elves vs Tomb Kings - clicky
#9 - (SD)High Elves vs Tomb Kings - clicky
#8 - Ogre Kingdoms vs Chaos Dwarfs (written from CD perspective) - clicky
#7 - (SD)High Elves vs Dark Elves - clicky
#6 - Dark Elves vs Orcs and Goblins: clicky
#5 - (cav)High Elves vs Wood Elves: clicky
#4 - (SD)High Elves vs Ogre Kingdoms: clicky
#3 - (cav)High Elves vs Wood Elves: clicky
#2 - Dark Elves vs High Elves: (written from HE perspective) clicky
#1 - Dark Elves vs Wood Elves: clicky

.::. Pairings .::.

#3 Putting together strong lists: clicky
#2 An army having a single counter: clicky
#1 Getting to know the system: clicky

.::. Sample Army Lists .::.
These lists have been included to give us a basis from which we can evaluate generic matchups, how our armies perform against them and act as a reference point for discussion.

Beastmen - Take me to the sample lists
Bretonnia - Take me to the sample lists
Chaos Dwarfs - Take me to the sample lists
Daemons of Chaos - Take me to the sample lists
Dark Elves - Take me to the sample lists
Dwarfs - Take me to the sample lists
Empire - Take me to the sample lists
High Elves - Take me to the sample lists
Lizardmen - Take me to the sample lists
Ogre Kingdoms - Take me to the sample lists
Orcs and Goblins - Take me to the sample lists
Skaven - Take me to the sample lists
Tomb Kings - Take me to the sample lists
Vampire Counts - Take me to the sample lists
Warriors of Chaos - Take me to the sample lists
Wood Elves - Take me to the sample lists

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

High Elf Army Restrictions:

ETC High Elves restrictions wrote:
High Elves

• Book of Hoeth/Banner of the World Dragon/Unmounted Frostheart Phoenix, max 2
• Frostheart Phoenix/Star Dragon/Moon Dragon, max 2
• Archmage with Lore of Shadow or Death cannot use Book of Hoeth
• Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower/Each 8 (or fraction) Shadow Warrior or Sister of Averlon models/Archer units, max 7
• Ellyrian Reaver units, max 3


For High Elves we have 2 competing builds. A cavalry deathstar and a Star Dragon.

:: Cavstar ::

High Archmage L4 Steed, Scepter of Stability, Crown of Command = 290
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 572

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172 (wrong points cost earlier)
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605

Army total = 2386

:: Star Dragon ::

Prince on Star Dragon with star lance, dragonhelm, golden crown of atrazar, tots, shield = 598
Noble on Griffon, enchanted shield, dawnstone, heavy armour, lance = 260
Noble BSB on Barded Steed, heavy armour, shield, spear, botwd = 168
High Mage L2, scroll, furyring = 170
Characters/heroes: 1196/598

14 Silver Helms, full command and shields = 352
5 reavers, champion = 90
17 Spearelves, musician and standard bearer with +1M = 188
Core: 630

4 RBTs = 280
Eagle = 50
Frostheart Phoenix = 240
Rare: 570

Army total: 2396

Matchup evaluations for Star Dragon HE wrote:
Code:
Score from -2 => 2: -2 expects to lose big. +2 expects to lose big. Volatility Low, Medium, High. If a matchup goes poorly, how bad can it get? Likewise, if it goes well, how well it can go? Confidence - Low, Medium, High: how sure are we that this evaluation is correct.

Fraction - Score - Volatility - Confidence
BM          +2         H            H
BR          -1         H            L
CD          -1         H            L
DoC         +1         H            L
DE          +1         M            L
DW          -2         M            M
EMP         +0         M            M
HE          +2         L            M
LZ          +2         L            H
OK          -2         H            H
OnG         +0         M            L
SK          +1         H            M
TK          +1         M            L
VC          +2         L            H
WoC         +2         M            M
WE          +2         M            H

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

Warriors of Chaos army restrictions:

ETC Warriors of Chaos restrictions wrote:
Warriors of Chaos

• Exalted Hero on Daemonic Mount/Daemon Prince/one or more Core Chaos Chariots (max 3)/Skullcrusher unit, max 4
• Daemon Prince/Chimera, max 2
• 2nd Hellcannon/Lore of Death and/or Tzeentch in the army, max 1
• Third Eye of Tzeentch/Talisman of Preservation/Armour of Destiny, max 1 on the same model
• Chaos Armour/Soul Feeder/Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem/3 or more Wizard levels/Daemon of Nurgle/Flying/Lore of Death or Nurgle, max 3 on the same Daemon Prince


For a pushlist, I`m thinking of the following:

Lord on Disc, Mark of Tzeentch, Armour of 4++, Shield, Scaly Skin, Sword of Might, Dragonbane Gem, TOTS, breath weapon = 392
BSB on Barded Daemonic Mount, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Halberd, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Feeder = 261
Fire Sorceror, L2, Scroll, Ruby Ring = 195
Exalted Hero, Mark of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, Enchanted Shield = 140
Heroes = 596
Characters = 988

15 Warriors of Chaos, Full Command, Movement Banner = 255
5 Hounds = 30
5 Hounds = 30
5 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 75
5 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 75
9 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 135
Core = 600

Chimera, Breath Weapon, Regeneration = 275
Chimera, Breath Weapon, Regeneration = 275
Special = 550

3 Skullcrushers with Lances, musician & standard with Gleaming Pennant = 256
Army total = 2394

Author:  Strange [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

Quote:
Current ETC comp for Dwarfs: Cannon/Grudge Thrower/Organ Gun/Flame Cannon/Each 2 (or fraction) Gyrocopter after 3, max 4


Runesmith General, shield, Rune of Spellbreaking, Master Rune of Balance138
Thane BSB, shield, Master rune of Grugni, Strollaz Rune 188
Runesmith, shield, Rune of Stone, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking 113
Engineer (Organ gun) 70

29 Longbeards, GW, FC 436
12 Quarrelers, GW 168

23 Hammerers, FC, Master Rune of Groth One Eye 427
Cannon, Rune of Forging 145
Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning 150
Gyrocopter, vanguard 100

20 Irondrakes, musician, standard 320
Organ gun, Rune of accuracy 145
2400 points

Author:  Strange [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

This is a placeholder in case Tomb Kings become viable

Author:  Dark Reaper [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

Dark Elf Army List:

ETC 3.5 Restrictions wrote:
• Reaper Bolt Thrower/Each 5 (or fraction) shade models/Dark Rider with Repeater Crossbow units/Darkshard units, max 7
• Dark Rider units, Characters on Dark Steed, max 3 each
• Dark Rider models after 15/Doomfire Warlock models/Character on Cold One or Pegasus/Character on Dark Steed (counts as 2), max 15
• 6 or more Doomfire Warlock models/mounted Supreme Sorceress with Lore of Death or Dark Magic/Sacrificial Dagger, max 1


Dreadlord, General, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dark Steed, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone - 258pts
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4 Death, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Hotek - 295pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield Cloak of Twilight - 188pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, Armour of Destiny - 184pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Charmed Shield, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, BSB - 211pts
Characters = 1136pts

25 Darkshards, Guardmaster, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame - 340pts
9 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows - 180pts
5 Dark Riders - 80pts
Core = 600pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
5 Harpies - 75pts
5 Shades - 80pts
Special = 435pts

9 Doomfire Warlocks - 225pts
Rare = 225pts

Army Total = 2396pts

Games

WE: 20-0
O&G: 13-7
OK: 20-0

Author:  Dark Reaper [ Wed May 07, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

Placeholder in the unlikely case I will play Warriors of Chaos.

Author:  rusty [ Wed May 07, 2014 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

Ogre Kingdoms ETC 14.3.5 restrictions wrote:

• Gnoblar units, max 3
• Crown of Command (counts as 2)/Runemaw/4 or more Characters/6 or more Mournfang models, max 3
• 2nd Ironblaster (counts as 2)/Lords present in the army/4 or more Mournfang models, max 2
• Hellheart/Dispel Scroll, max 1


Ogre Kingdoms #18 : The Wolfen of Vile-Tis

Reasoning: BOOOM!! Hur hur hur.
The army concept is simple: Shoot, then kill the rest in close combat. More nuanced, it tries to play to OK strengts while minimizing their weaknesses. Weaknesses include: Vulnerability to i-based spells, lack of flyers, low survivability vs many powerful CC troops, low leadership, little armour.
Strengths include: A very mobile shooting phase, best cannons in the game arguably, a solid core deathstar unit, and an abundance of cheap chaff.

One of the main strengths is the ability to effortlessly and fast switch from defensive shooting to agressive CC. The whole army can move and shoot, or in case of the firebelly march and use breath weapon. It also har 6-7 chaff units, making winning deployment and losing the roll to go first both probable.

A typical game vs a CC-heavy army goes like this:
0- Deploy gnoblars and sabretusks until enemy hand is shown. Then deploy three main units (IG, LB, ME) at a reasonable distance. If the enemy army outmatches the ogres heavily in CC, deploy with the back rank of LB/ME <30" from their chosen target. ME targets WM if possible, monsters/chariots if not. LB focus on chaff. IB deploy behind impassables if the enemy have cannons/WM/dangerous magic. Within 52" of chosen target.
1-2: Shooting moves into range, start killing vulnerable units. Chaff moves into position to block dangerous units. They will usually be in a less than optimal position since they deployed first. Gutstar redeploys sideways if necessary. Since chaff can be expected to keep the enemy at bay for a while, shooting will prioritize units that can kill at range in favour of CC units.
3-4 :Armies close, chaff keep nasty CC units occupied while shooting degrade enemy units to a managable level.
5-6: Gutstar and ME engage enemy main combat blocks, or try to get out of the way if the matchup isn't favourable.

If the enemy army is shooting-heavy the whole army will advance while shooting. Gnoblars screen vs BS-based shooting, IB use ogre blocks as mobile cover from cannonballs.



Heroes (575pts)
Bruiser
General
Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
Ironcurse Icon,Talisman of Preservation

Bruiser
Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon
Armour of Destiny

Firebelly
Great Weapon, Wizard Level 2
Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Core (610pts)
3*10 Gnoblars

9 Ironguts
Full command
Standard of Discipline

3 Ogres
Bellower
Additional Hand Weapon

Special (871pts)
8 Leadbelchers
Bellower, Champion

7 Maneaters
Bellower, Poisoned Attacks , Stubborn
Maneaters (62pts)
A Brace of Ogre Pistols, Light Armour

3*1 Sabretusk

Rare (340pts)
2*Ironblaster

Total: 2396 pts
Games: 8
DW:20-0
EM: 20-0
DE: 13-7

Tourney#1 Wårcon:
DoC: 20-0
DE: 13-7
CD: 13-7
SK: 16-4
DoC: 13-7
1. place.

Tourney#2 SM:
DE: 8-12
EM: 17-3
LZ: 12-8
OK:16-4
DoC: 18-2
4. place

Author:  rusty [ Wed May 07, 2014 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Secret Journey

Wood Elf army #1: Eternal Shade

Lvl 5. steed. Ashur.shadow.
Lvl 1. Heavens. Scroll. Steed.
BSB. HoD. Steed. Shield. Spear.
2*10 GG. Hagbane, musician.
33 EG, FC.
7 sisters. Banner. MR 1.
2*6 WR. Shield.
2*15 WW.

Reasoning: Coming. Reason#1: I want to use Eternal Guard :-)
Games: zero

Wood Elf army #2:
WE-2400-ETC14-AB8-2-Ashur's light Coven (2400pts)

Lords (310pts)
Spellweaver (310pts)
Book of Ashur, Elven Steed, Level 4, Lore of Light

Heroes (332pts)
Glade Captain (112pts)
Asrai Longbow, Asrai Spear, Battle Standard, Elven Steed, Light Armor

Spellsinger (115pts)
Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed, Lore of Light

Spellsinger (105pts)
Scroll of Shielding, Elven Steed, Lore of Light

Core (640pts)
10xEternal Guard (130pts)
Champion, Musician

Glade Guard (160pts)
Musician
10x Glade Guard
Hagbane Tips

Glade Guard (160pts)
Musician
10x Glade Guard
Hagbane Tips

5x Glade Riders (95pts)

5x Glade Riders (95pts)

Special (518pts)

7x Sisters of the Thorn (182pts)

6x Wild Riders (168pts)
Shields

6x Wild Riders (168pts)
Shields

Rare (600pts)

15x Waywatchers (300pts)

15x Waywatchers (300pts)

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Thread has now been updated with some basic information :) Expect more content to start showing up soon!

Author:  RE.Lee [ Wed May 07, 2014 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Didn't know a Star Dragon is a thing at ETC - it surely is the more exciting option! I'll be following your progress, guys - good luck!

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

RE.Lee wrote:
Didn't know a Star Dragon is a thing at ETC - it surely is the more exciting option! I'll be following your progress, guys - good luck!


I think the Star Dragon is a solid choice almost regardless of comp system ;) Outside of ETC you can bring 2 Frosties along with it even :D Of course it is matchup dependent, but what lists aren`t? In a pairing situation the Star Dragon truly brings some interesting options to the table as well. Its viability in this setting however depends on what the overall composition looks like. I might also change the list of course, specifics are far from 100% ;)

Author:  Dragon fire [ Wed May 07, 2014 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

First of all. I really find this concept very interesting and I look forward to hear more from you.

I would change the setup on your griffon noble so that the griffon receives swiftsense and the dawnstone is changed to luckstone? The reason for the change is that I believe ASF and the rerolls it brings for a monster i huge. Secondly, you really do not want the griffon in combat with anything S5 or higher. So the AS rerolls are less needed. What is your thought on this?

Author:  Dark Reaper [ Wed May 07, 2014 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Dragon fire wrote:
First of all. I really find this concept very interesting and I look forward to hear more from you.


I am really looking forward to this. Being able to hang out with my friends and playing as part of a team is going to be epic. The whole strategy behind a team event such as this seems to be quite different from standard Warhammer, as you don't really need to win all your games. A draw in a game can be fantastic as long as you taking that match means one of your teammates get an easier match. Another interesting aspect is what armies to bring. Who works well together for pairing etc...

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 07, 2014 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Dwarfs, OK, WE suggestions are now up :) The first post has also been updated with correct pairing information.

@Dragon fire - with regards to the Griffon Noble in the Dragonlist, it is an experiment that, at this point in time, is very theoretical. My thoughts behind this guy is to have him engage softer targets and hopefully the bigger beasts will attract the firepower. The problem with giving the Griffon ASF is that I believe the Griffon will die. As I don`t give up points unless the whole model dies, I want to keep the rider alive. While the Griffon still flies, he has a 2+ re-rollable armour save. This is the most reliable protection I can give him without seriously re-shuffling points. Even on foot he is quite decent against most RnF. At I5, the Griffon strikes fairly fast anyways. I will keep your suggestion in mind, thanks for your input :) If the monster doesn`t work out but I like the flyer, I`ll probably try a Great Eagle Noble. Perhaps I`ll even kit him out to be a cannonball-catcher :D

Author:  rusty [ Thu May 08, 2014 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Well, this will be fun :)

Btw, I thought "The Secret Journey" was much better as heading.

I will be using my ogre list #18 for the upcoming Swedish Masters (SM. Open to all, despite the name) tournament next weekend. After that I'll start playing the new WE book while analyzing how ogres have been doing. The ogre army is my 18. iteration of the list since I started playing ogres in 8. edition. I'm curious how well it will do. In test games and one small tournament they have been doing rather well, winning the tourney and getting 11-9 vs Dark Reapers Witchstar army as their worst result.
More about SM in a later post.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 08, 2014 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

We'll have a vote ;)

The US Open and Wimbledon for example allow non-US/UK citizens to participate. ETC stands for European Team Championship but nations from at least 3 other continents have participated for the past few years. The name can just as well indicate where the tournament is held ;) I'm a big fan of open tournaments.

I made some errors in my initial WoC list. Basically the Lord has 2 magic armours and the Exalted are both 10 points too cheap. See below:

Quote:
Lord on Disc, Mark of Tzeentch, Armour of 4++, Dragonhelm, Scaly Skin, Great Weapon, TOTS, breath weapon = 375
BSB on Barded Daemonic Mount, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Halberd, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Feeder = 251
Fire Sorceror, L2, Scroll, Ruby Ring = 195
Exalted Hero, Mark of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Striking, Dragonbane Gem = 150
Heroes = 596
Characters = 971

15 Warriors of Chaos, Full Command, Movement Banner = 255
5 Hounds = 30
5 Hounds = 30
5 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 75
5 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 75
9 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 135
Core = 600

Chimera, Breath Weapon, Regeneration = 275
Chimera, Breath Weapon, Regeneration = 275
Special = 550

3 Skullcrushers with Lances, musician & standard with Gleaming Pennant = 256
Army total = 2377


So the Lord leaves the Dragonhelm and picks up Dragonbane Gem and Sword of Might along with a mundane shield. This allows him to maintain his 1+/3++ and 2++ vs fire, but he now strikes at I7 S6 instead of ASL S7. This is a bonus in a way because against GW troops he strikes before them, reducing the damage vs Chimerae.

The Slaanesh exalted leaves Sword of Striking and Dragonbane Gem at home to leave the 20 points needed. The list is thus:

Lord on Disc, Mark of Tzeentch, Armour of 4++, Shield, Scaly Skin, Sword of Might, Dragonbane Gem, TOTS, breath weapon = 392
BSB on Barded Daemonic Mount, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Halberd, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Feeder = 261
Fire Sorceror, L2, Scroll, Ruby Ring = 195
Exalted Hero, Mark of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh, Enchanted Shield = 140
Heroes = 596
Characters = 988

15 Warriors of Chaos, Full Command, Movement Banner = 255
5 Hounds = 30
5 Hounds = 30
5 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 75
5 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 75
9 Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh = 135
Core = 600

Chimera, Breath Weapon, Regeneration = 275
Chimera, Breath Weapon, Regeneration = 275
Special = 550

3 Skullcrushers with Lances, musician & standard with Gleaming Pennant = 256
Army total = 2394

WoC OP updated.

Author:  rusty [ Thu May 08, 2014 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

WE-2400-ETC14-AB8-2-Ashur's light Coven (2400pts)

Lords (310pts)
Spellweaver (310pts)
Book of Ashur, Elven Steed, Level 4, Lore of Light

Heroes (332pts)
Glade Captain (112pts)
Asrai Longbow, Asrai Spear, Battle Standard, Elven Steed, Light Armor

Spellsinger (115pts)
Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed, Lore of Light

Spellsinger (105pts)
Scroll of Shielding, Elven Steed, Lore of Light

Core (640pts)
10xEternal Guard (130pts)
Champion, Musician

Glade Guard (160pts)
Musician
10x Glade Guard
Hagbane Tips

Glade Guard (160pts)
Musician
10x Glade Guard
Hagbane Tips

5x Glade Riders (95pts)

5x Glade Riders (95pts)

Special (518pts)

7x Sisters of the Thorn (182pts)

6x Wild Riders (168pts)
Shields

6x Wild Riders (168pts)
Shields

Rare (600pts)

15x Waywatchers (300pts)

15x Waywatchers (300pts)


Hopefully the army setup is self-explanatory. Light council and BSB goes in sisters, in forest. Blast stuff. Eternal guard are redirectors and tar pit. WR stay within BSB range until unleashed. Magic defence is heavy to keep WW, sisters and WR alive. +5 to dispel, shielding scroll combined with ward saves and an immunity to i-spells should help. In case of dwellers two characters will join a chargeblocked WR unit. Everybody keep shooting and nobody except the EG. goes into a combat they can't win.
Fun fact: Banishment will be cast very reliably on 2 dice, as will the rest of Light lore, bar #6 which requires 3 dice. Coupled with 4 channels, 3+ castings per turn isn't unreasonable.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 08, 2014 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Seeing WE Coven lists and trying to come up with ways to enhance I've come to the conclusion that they are inherently flawed. Looking at good Coven armies, they sport other threats besides Banishment that are super nasty. Examples include Empire with a Timewarped Stank or Halberdiers horde, Tomb Kings with lots of shooting and Smiting and High Elves with BOTWD-WL. If playing against the WE list above, an opponent basically only has to dispel banishment. Magic strategies based around one particular spell are doomed to have very varied results - in some games it works great, in others your 700 point investment does very little.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 08, 2014 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

:: Pairing Training 1 ::

This morning we had a few rounds of pairing to get to know the system. Dark reaper held our armies while I played the opponent. In total we paired 4 rounds. Our armies were Shooty OK, Gunline Dwarfs, Flexible DE and Cavstar HE. See below for details:

Quote:
OK
Heroes (575pts)
Bruiser
General
Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
Ironcurse Icon,Talisman of Preservation

Bruiser
Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon
Armour of Destiny

Firebelly
Great Weapon, Wizard Level 2
Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Core (610pts)
3*10 Gnoblars

9 Ironguts
Full command
Standard of Discipline

3 Ogres
Bellower
Additional Hand Weapon

Special (871pts)
8 Leadbelchers
Bellower, Champion

7 Maneaters
Bellower, Poisoned Attacks , Stubborn
Maneaters (62pts)
A Brace of Ogre Pistols, Light Armour

3*1 Sabretusk

Rare (340pts)
2*Ironblaster

DE

Dreadlord, General, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dark Steed, Shield, Repeater Crossbow, Giant Blade, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm - 271pts
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4 Death, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Endurance - 275pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield Cloak of Twilight - 188pts
Master, Dark Steed, Lance, Repeater Crossbow, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, BSB, Ring of Hotek - 178pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Charmed Shield, Lance, Talisman of Preservation - 186pts
Characters = 1103pts

13 Bleakswords, Musician, Standard Bearer, Lichebone Pennant - 152pts
19 Darkshards, Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame - 277pts
5 Dark Riders, Shields - 85pts
5 Dark Riders, Shields - 85pts
Core = 609pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
5 Shades, Great Weapons - 90pts
5 Shades, Great Weapons - 90pts
Special = 460pts

9 Doomfire Warlocks - 225pts
Rare = 225pts

DW

Runesmith general, shield, Rune of Spellbreaking, Master Rune of Balance.
Thane BSB, shield, Master rune of Grugni, Strollaz Rune
Runesmith, shield, Rune of Stone, 2x Rune of Spellbreaking
Engineer (Organ gun)

29 Longbeards, GW, FC
12 Quarrelers, GW

23 Hammerers, FC, Master Rune of Groth One Eye
Cannon, Rune of Forging
Cannon, Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
Gyrocopter, vanguard

20 Irondrakes, musician, standard
Organ gun, Rune of accuracy

HE

High Archmage L4 Steed, Scepter of Stability, Crown of Command = 290
Prince on Barded Steed, Giant Blade, Dragon Armour, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon = 282

Lords = 572

Noble BSB on Barded Steed, BOTWD, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lance = 172 (wrong points cost earlier)
Noble on Barded Steed, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, Dragon Armour, Shield = 147
Noble on Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Strength = 131
High Mage Steed, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Fury = 145

Heroes = 595

18 Silver Helms, Full Command, Shields = 444
5 Reavers, bows = 85
5 Reavers, bows = 85

Core = 614

5 Shadow Warriors, Champion = 85
1 Frostheart Phoenix = 240
4 Repeater Bolt Throwers = 280
Special & Rare = 605


:: Round 1 ::

I had Coven Empire, push WoC, Bell Skaven and Hexwraiths VC.

DE and Skaven were revealed as output armies. DE got EMP VC and Skaven got OK, DW. DE chose EMP, SK chose DW. This left OK vs WoC and HE vs VC. full matchups:

DE vs EMP
OK vs WoC
DW vs SK
HE vs VC


:: Round 2 ::

I had CD with dual-death and K`daii, SD HE, Beastmen and DoC Nurgle with Death GUO.

SD HE and Dwarfs were revealed as output armies. SD HE got OK HE and Dwarfs got Beastmen CD. SD HE chose HE, Dwarfs chose CD. This left DE vs Beastmen and OK vs DoC. Full matchups:

DE vs BM
OK vs DoC
DW vs CD
HE vs SD HE


:: Round 3 ::

I had Bretonnia with Life, Lizardmen Loremaster High, Wood Elves Shadow and Dwarfs.

DE and BR were revealed as output armies. DE got LZ WE and BR got OK DW. DE chose WE, BR chose DW. This left HE vs LZ and OK vs DW. Full matchups:

DE vs WE
OK vs DW
DW vs BR
HE vs LZ


:: Round 4 ::

I had Coven EMP, SD HE, Hexwraiths VC and OnG.

Dwarfs and VC were revealed as output armies. VC got DE HE and DW got EMP ONG. VC chose DE, DW chose OnG. This left HE vs SD HE and OK vs EMP. Full matchups:

DE vs VC
OK vs EMP
DW vs OnG
HE vs SD HE


:: Analysis ::

Will fill this out later ;)

Author:  Dark Reaper [ Thu May 08, 2014 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Analysis of Pairing Training

Round 1

Here I put out DE and Olannon put out Skaven. He counters my DE with Empire and VC. I counter Skaven with Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms. In practice this means that I have DE and HE and I get to choose which of the two take on VC and which of the ones take on Empire. None of our armies are really that good against Coven Empire, but I believe DE can do decently against anyone, while HE will absolutely massacre VC. In the end, we end up with these pairing:

DE vs EMP
OK vs WoC
DW vs SK
HE vs VC


The DE matchup is not ideal for me, but Empire can't really push that hard, so worst case scenario is me standing firm in a corner and getting 8 points. I will have to playtest to see if I can actually handle this matchup better though.

OK vs WoC is ok for the Ogres. It is not ideal, but they should be able to deal with them.

Dwarfs vs Skaven is probably hard for the Dwarfs, but they do have hatred. It depends on whether they have Storm Banner or not.

High Elves vs Vampire Counts should in all honesty be a cakewalk, especially with such an aggressive HE player as Olannon.

At the end of the day, we have 3 ok-ish matchups and one that absolutely favours us. It is not ideal, but I think we may have gotten the upper hand.

Round 2

I put out Dwarfs, while Olannon put out Star Dragon HE. I put out HE and OK, keeping DE on hand.

DE vs BM
OK vs DoC
DW vs CD
HE vs SD HE


The DE matchup is really good. He can't really do anything to the DE. However, I am not sure if it is 20-0 good. The BM can't really do much, while I can shoot him and magic him all game.

The Ogres can deal with DoC pretty well and I don't think either of them has a great advantage on the other.

Dwarfs vs CD is probably slightly in favour of the CD, but nothing major. CD can't really push and the Dwarfs have two cannons. Still, it is probably in the CD's favour.

The HE bus can't really deal with a Star Dragon, so this was a disastrous matchup for us.

All in all, we lost this pairing. We have one very advantageous matchup, one disastrous and two that might be slightly in the opponent's favour.

Round 3

I put out DE, Olannon put out Bretonnia. I figured Bretonnia really could not play against neither Ogres nor Dwarfs, so I countered with them. In the end, we ended up with this.

DE vs WE
OK vs DW
DW vs BR
HE vs LZ


Dark Elves vs Wood Elves should be winnable. I don't know their new book very well yet, but apart from the Waywatchers, my characters should be more or less safe. This matchup slightly favoured us.

Ogres have Ironblasters and should be able to win the shoot-off with the Dwarfs. Good matchup for us.

Dwarfs should be able to decimate the Bretonnians completely. Great matchup for us.

High Elves with bus, Banner of the World Dragon and lots of chaff clearing against Lizardmen is a very good matchup for us.

Looking at this, we won the pairing massively. We have the upper hand in virtually every match.

Round 4

I put out Dwarfs again, while Olannon put out VC. We have two armies that can really compete against VC and one that can maybe draw if lucky. I could not counter with OK as they would simply be torn to pieces against VC, barring an insanely lucky Ironblaster shot on the VC general.

DE vs VC
OK vs EMP
DW vs OnG
HE vs SD HE


The DE vs VC matchup is not good for me, but I should be able to do ok if I castle in a corner and focus all my attention on the ethereals. Purple Sun, Doombolt, the whole nine yards. Advantage VC.

It is hard to tell if Ogres should beat Empire or not, but I think they may have a slight advantage. Ironblasters are just that good.

Dwarfs vs O&G is a matchup I really don't know at all, but I think the Dwarfs should be able to do ok.

HE vs SD HE is again a matchup Olannon really does not want and one where he can't really do that much. It massively favours the Star Dragon.

Evaluation - Lessons Learned

The DE works better as an output army than Dwarfs do. The DE should be able to play most matchups without losing heavily, while the Dwarfs are much more one-dimensional and are more easily countered. Another point here is that the DE and HE list are so different that if it is placed last, it is easy to get a very favourable matchup for the HE list. I think I have to change my DE list just a bit though. The Bleakswords will be too exposed in a list like this and I need to think differently. I therefore want to increase the size of my Darkshards and buff one of the DR units to be a secondary bunker as well as moving some points around.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Thu May 08, 2014 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

For our first pairing session I decided to just "put some armies" out there to see how the pairing evolved and hopefully learn a few things along the way. I largely agree with Dark Reaper`s analysis of the matchups we ended up with, but I want to take a bigger look at things.

The most obvious for us was how incredibly poor Dwarfs were as a put-out army. They are very strong to have overall, but putting them out first is giving away so much of their utility. We also learned that Dark Elves can play very flexible, allowing for a put-out army without really risking that much. This has led us to evolve them from being a pushy army to a more avoidance-based army with a multi-faceted threat matrix, they can basically compete in all phases of the game and have an answer to just about everything out there. The ones they cannot handle, they can dodge and go home with a small loss from. This is quite different to Dwarfs for example, who can easily be smashed 20-0 by a bad matchup. It`s just about the nature of the armies, really.

I also realized that the Star Dragon build was super powerful in the pairing. There are some common builds out there that just don`t have an answer to this list, to the point where the game plays itself and an opponent is lucky to get away with even 4-5 points. An example is the HE cavbus. You send the Star Dragon in its front and basically win the game: he can`t kill you and while the BOTWD is alive you`re stubborn. If he challenges with his BSB to lose his BOTWD, you have your own. Another example is the VC Hexwraiths list. You send Star Dragon + Frostheart into the Lord and kill him. There is nothing he can do about it and the Hexwraiths aren`t strong enough to make a dent here. 2 Thunderstomps also mean there`s enough combat resolution to win virtually every round. Prior to this pairing session, I believed the cavstar was superior because it is so reliable and has very, very few really bad matchups. What we found however was that the Star Dragon was quite easy to get into really favourable matchups, flexible beyond what I would`ve thought.

Dwarfs and OK working in tandem proved to be highly valuable. They are both good against various pushing armies, but perhaps more importantly they are both solid choices against gunlines as well. Ironblasters deploying behind hills can negate enemy artillery early on whereas Dwarfs and their 2 laser-guided cannons with 5++ is really tough for an opponent to deal with. A 30" range BS5 organ gun can also be helpful in this scenario.

Of course there are tons of assumptions here. We need to playtest a lot of this to confirm/shatter our thoughts with regards to what matchups are good/bad etc. However this was a very good starting point and we learned a great deal. For the next session, we will be "bringing" SD HE instead of cavstar HE, which also means that the SD build is my next army to try out once I have time. We also made some minor adjustments to DE to fit their new role better while keeping OK and DW as they are as, given correct priorities, they are very lucrative to have in the pairing.

Author:  Gandalf_82 [ Thu May 08, 2014 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Sounds like this will be both an interesting thread and tournament guys. I look forward to following this one and seeing how you get on. It's obvious you're planning on putting a lot of thought and time into it! :)

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri May 09, 2014 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

:: Pairing Training 2 ::

We are planning to do a lot indeed ;) It`s very refreshing to have a goal which requires me to delve into so many different aspects of the game, instead of just trying to find the best all-comers list and playing it to death.

We had another round of pairing today. This time I played our armies and Dark reaper took 4 others. I had SD HE, flexible DE, shooty Ogres and Dwarfs. Dark Reaper had Shooty OK, Hexwraiths VC, Coven of Light Empire and Daemons with L4 Death GUO.

Analyzing this matchup two things stand out. The SD is hard to pair correctly, with only VC being favourable. The second thing is that our shooty Ogres only have 1 bad matchup - VC. This means that by placing OK out first and keeping SD on hand, I can probably avoid a terrible matchup for the SD while getting a favourable one for the SD.

So I put out OK. Dark Reaper reveals his output: Coven Empire. This is pretty good for me, as I can counter with DE + DW and still have options. Both DE and DW should be fine vs Empire. I don`t know the DW-EMP matchup too well, playtesting needed, but I suppose it`s even-ish. I counter with DW + DW, our OK is countered by OK + DoC. I choose OK mirror matchup, which leaves Daemons for the SD which I consider a slight advantage for the SD: BOTWD bus is very strong here and if the GUO shows up he`d better be prepared to face a barrage of spells and bolts. Furthermore the SD-Prince has a fireward and is thus hard to get points from.

Final matchups:
OK vs OK (identical lists): 0
EMP vs DW: 0 -> 1 (I believe Dwarfs have the upper hand here with spell destroyer for banishment and superior cannons)
VC vs DE: -1
DoC vs HE: 1

So in total a slight advantage for us.

What we learned from this is that if you have an army on your roster that has only one poor matchup among the opponents` roster, that army is a good candidate for put-out army. This is especially true when you have a strong counter to that counter. In this case, our OK were only really weak vs VC and VC are really weak vs Star Dragon HE. Thus, OK is a good put-out army: this guarantees that they don`t get a bad matchup and if VC is used as one of the counters, they risk it being paired against SD-HE from the hand. Interesting and important lesson :)

Author:  Dark Reaper [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

I tried my Dark Elf list against the new Wood Elves on Saturday. It works well, but I believe it can be even better with some tweaking. I liked the manouevreability the list offers and intend to expand on this. I would rate the matchup DE-WE with this list to be a +2.

http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php ... 75#p902314

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Tue May 13, 2014 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

I`m putting up the last game I had under SM here, as the DE list is very similar to what we`re trying out: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=45081&p=877736#p877736 (BR post also updated)

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Wed May 14, 2014 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

BRs updated with a game of HE vs WE. Harder matchup than anticipated, but still +1 for HE I believe.

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri May 16, 2014 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Beastmen Sample Lists

Beastmen lists are all very one dimensional: double L4 with Death and Shadow with a secondary Shadow caster for spamming miasma. With the Herdstone, expect Miasma (I) followed by pit and/or purple sun.

Quote:
LORD
Beastlord: General, Warrior bane, Charmed shield. 155p
Great Bray Shaman: Lv4 Shadow, Power scroll 270p
Great Bray Shaman: Lv4 Death, Scroll of shielding 250p

HERO
Wargor: BSB, HA, Shield, Dragon helm, Dawnstone, Gnarled hide. 166p
Bray Shaman: Lv1 Shadow, Dispel scroll. 100p
Bray Shaman: Lv1 Beast, XHW, Shard of the herd stone. 127p

CORE
40 Gor Herd: FCG, XHW, Totem of rust. 395p
40 Gor Herd: FCG. XHW, Gleaming pennant 350p

SPECIAL
38 Bestigor herd: FCG, Standard of discipline 501p
5 Harpies 55p
5 Harpies 55p
5 Razergor Herd 275p
2699p

Author:  Curu Olannon [ Fri May 16, 2014 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Team Tournament Preparation Blog

Bretonnia Sample Lists

Bretonnia lists are by and large very cookie-cutter by nature. Few variants exist, it's all about big core blocks with multiple flyers, lots of characters and 2 trebuchets.

Quote:
Bretonnian Lord on Barded Warhorse: General, Virtue of Heroism, Shield, Sword of Swift Slaying, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, 234
Prophetess of the Lady on Warhorse: Level 4, Life, Falcon-horn of Fredemund, Silver Mirror, 325

Paladin on Barded Warhorse: BSB, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Crown of Command, 128
Damsel of the Lady on Warhorse: Level 1, Beast, Dispel Scroll, 105
Paladin on Barded Warhorse: Shield, Wyvern Lance, Gromril Great Helm, 126
Paladin on Barded Warhorse: Virtue of Duty, Lance, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, 118

13 Knights of the Realm: FCG, War Banner, 361
11 Knights Errants: FCG, Standard of Discipline, 256
2x 9 Knights Errants: FCG, 201

3 Pegasus Knights: Champion, 165
2x 1 Field Trebuchet: 90
Total: 2400

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